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Posted: 3/7/2021 5:45:08 PM EDT
I bought a champion 4500/3650 generator about 5 years ago and due to health problems was not able to do anything with it.This last snow storm although we didn't lose power has got me motivated to set it up.
I have it mounted on a shelf in my shed which gives me very little clearance to be able to drain the oil,I thought of making an extended drain pipe but the threads are straight metric threads instead of pipe threads.Does anybody have any ideas how I can extend this drain or where I might find a drain valve with metric threads
that I could attach a rubber hose to?
The manual says to ground the generator with a minimum 12 gauge wire should I use solid or stranded wire?
I have a piece of grounding rod that is 4 feet long is this sufficient or does it need to be longer?
Thanks for any help you can give me.
Link Posted: 3/7/2021 8:22:46 PM EDT
[#2]
Stranded wire for the vibration

Link Posted: 3/8/2021 2:32:18 PM EDT
[#3]
Will four feet be long enough for the ground rod?
Link Posted: 3/8/2021 5:32:32 PM EDT
[#4]
You can install the ground rod, but the more important connection is to the grounding system of the house. Make sure you use good quality “spec” grade plugs/connectors. Don’t buy the $2 connectors, get the $8 ones.

Use solid wire because the lugs on the generator and the clamp for the ground rod are designed to bite into solid wire.
If you need to go buy solid copper wire anyway get #8 or #6 just because the larger wire isn’t as fragile.
The 4’ rod will be fine because it isn’t really going to doing much anyway.
Link Posted: 3/8/2021 6:16:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Is grounding a generator really necessary?

If so, how far from the house,  and how deep?  What about rain?
Link Posted: 3/8/2021 9:15:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Are you connecting it to your house panel?  If so, it'll be grounded through your house grounding system.
Link Posted: 3/8/2021 9:18:24 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Is grounding a generator really necessary?

If so, how far from the house,  and how deep?  What about rain?
View Quote

In for the answer. I've had and used genny's for over 20 years and never grounded them. Is it for possible lightning strikes?
Link Posted: 3/8/2021 11:12:05 PM EDT
[#8]
I'll answer the questions as best I can.This will be used mainly for running my gas central air.From the manual that came with the generator:.Grounding Your generator must be properly connected to an appropriate ground to help prevent electric shock.A ground terminal connected to the frame of the generator has been provided on the power panel. For remote grounding, connect of a length of heavy gauge (12 AWG minimum) copper wire between the generator ground terminal and a copper rod driven into the ground. We strongly recommend that you consult with a qualified electrician to ensure compliance with local electrical codes.Grounding The generator system ground connects the frame to the ground terminals on the power panel.–The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from the AC receptacle ground pin.–Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin connection will not function if the receptacle ground pin is not functional.
The ground connection on the generator is on the control panel and is a threaded terminal,maybe like a 10-32
thread.The generator is about 40 feet from the house,the grounding rod is 4 feet long.Not sure what you mean about rain.I was going to use this transfer switch: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-Furnace-Transfer-Switch-TF151/202216476
I have not bought the switch yet so I don't know if it will be grounded to the house or not.
I will also be using this during tornado season if we lose power to run a refrigerator and small freezer with an
extension cord.Let me know if anymore info is needed and thanks for your help. @ColtRifle @BBsound
Link Posted: 3/8/2021 11:35:47 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'll answer the questions as best I can.This will be used mainly for running my gas central air.From the manual that came with the generator:.Grounding Your generator must be properly connected to an appropriate ground to help prevent electric shock.A ground terminal connected to the frame of the generator has been provided on the power panel. For remote grounding, connect of a length of heavy gauge (12 AWG minimum) copper wire between the generator ground terminal and a copper rod driven into the ground. We strongly recommend that you consult with a qualified electrician to ensure compliance with local electrical codes.Grounding The generator system ground connects the frame to the ground terminals on the power panel.–The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from the AC receptacle ground pin.–Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin connection will not function if the receptacle ground pin is not functional.
The ground connection on the generator is on the control panel and is a threaded terminal,maybe like a 10-32
thread.The generator is about 40 feet from the house,the grounding rod is 4 feet long.Not sure what you mean about rain.I was going to use this transfer switch: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-Furnace-Transfer-Switch-TF151/202216476
I have not bought the switch yet so I don't know if it will be grounded to the house or not.
I will also be using this during tornado season if we lose power to run a refrigerator and small freezer with an
extension cord.Let me know if anymore info is needed and thanks for your help. @ColtRifle @BBsound
View Quote




The only circuit that switches is the hot side.  This transfer switch will ensure the generator is connected to the house ground system.  Grounding the generator isn't necessary with this transfer switch.  

Your generator is WAY bigger than needed to run your furnace only.  I would strongly consider a transfer switch with a few more circuits so you can run things like your refrigerator and other essential circuits because you have the capacity to run more than just your furnace.  Your transfer switch can't handle the entire capacity of your generator so you're wasting some power.

You should have a 30 amp outlet on your generator so you can run more than you are planning on.
Link Posted: 3/9/2021 12:33:41 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




The only circuit that switches is the hot side.  This transfer switch will ensure the generator is connected to the house ground system.  Grounding the generator isn't necessary with this transfer switch.  

Your generator is WAY bigger than needed to run your furnace only.  I would strongly consider a transfer switch with a few more circuits so you can run things like your refrigerator and other essential circuits because you have the capacity to run more than just your furnace.  Your transfer switch can't handle the entire capacity of your generator so you're wasting some power.

You should have a 30 amp outlet on your generator so you can run more than you are planning on.
View Quote


Ok may have to rethink this.If I use it with just extension cords would I need to use a grounding rod?
Link Posted: 3/9/2021 6:52:31 AM EDT
[#11]
Can you give us a picture of your electrical panel?   I am wondering if a manual interlock would make for the most simple solution here.  

2Hut8
Link Posted: 3/9/2021 9:19:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Ok may have to rethink this.If I use it with just extension cords would I need to use a grounding rod?
View Quote




Does your generator have 120v only or 240v also?

Using your existing house distribution wires to send generator power to select places is almost always better than a bunch of power cords. Also, depending on your particular furnace, it may not run directly connected to a generator.  

What else around the house would you like to run? Are you trying to avoid using a transfer switch? How far away from your main panel where you would like the power to come in?
Link Posted: 3/9/2021 2:33:25 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Can you give us a picture of your electrical panel?   I am wondering if a manual interlock would make for the most simple solution here.  

2Hut8
View Quote


Can a non paying member post pictures and if so how do I do it?
Link Posted: 3/9/2021 2:57:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Does your generator have 120v only or 240v also?
Using your existing house distribution wires to send generator power to select places is almost always better than a bunch of power cords. Also, depending on your particular furnace, it may not run directly connected to a generator.  

What else around the house would you like to run? Are you trying to avoid using a transfer switch? How far away from your main panel where you would like the power to come in?
View Quote


The generator has 240v also.
What would cause the furnace to not to run connected directly to the generator?I'm trying to not have to use a
transfer switch as I don't have the money to hire an electrician.In the closet where the heater is a switch to cut power to the heater,I thought I could wire in the switch I posted earlier and run a heavy extension cord to it.The  heater is about 30 ft. from the panel.I'm not to worried about running anything else as I have a gas stove,kerosene lamps,LED lights,coleman gas and propane lanterns and stoves and a battery powered TV.Just really need the heater to keep the pipes from freezing and the wife warm,she gets cold easily.
Link Posted: 3/9/2021 3:15:03 PM EDT
[#15]
My goal for the future is I have another larger(6000 watt) generator that has been in storage for at least
10 years and needs some work to get running.I'm trying to save up enough money to be able to have a switch
installed to run everything we need.I was hoping to use the smaller generator until then for heat in the winter and to run refrigerator and freezer in summer in case of power outages from storms.
Link Posted: 3/9/2021 4:23:51 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The generator has 240v also.
What would cause the furnace to not to run connected directly to the generator?I'm trying to not have to use a
transfer switch as I don't have the money to hire an electrician.In the closet where the heater is a switch to cut power to the heater,I thought I could wire in the switch I posted earlier and run a heavy extension cord to it.The  heater is about 30 ft. from the panel.I'm not to worried about running anything else as I have a gas stove,kerosene lamps,LED lights,coleman gas and propane lanterns and stoves and a battery powered TV.Just really need the heater to keep the pipes from freezing and the wife warm,she gets cold easily.
View Quote




Do you have to use an electrician?  It's actually really easy to wire in a proper transfer switch depending on how good access you have to your panel.  

If you have an older furnace, it will probably work directly plugged in.  A newer furnace might not work when plugged directly into a generator.  You need to test it.  

https://blog.norwall.com/generator-information/portable-generators-homes-electrical-ground/

Link Posted: 3/9/2021 5:02:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Do you have to use an electrician?  It's actually really easy to wire in a proper transfer switch depending on how good access you have to your panel.  

If you have an older furnace, it will probably work directly plugged in.  A newer furnace might not work when plugged directly into a generator.  You need to test it.  

https://blog.norwall.com/generator-information/portable-generators-homes-electrical-ground/

View Quote
I probably would as I'm not to good with electrical stuff,I can wire a lamp and simple stuff like that and maybe that switch for the heater but I'd have to see it first.I read the link and didn't really understand what it was saying.On the front of the control panel near the ground terminal it says it has a floating nuetral what ever that means. The heater was installed in 2005
Link Posted: 3/9/2021 5:29:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I probably would as I'm not to good with electrical stuff,I can wire a lamp and simple stuff like that and maybe that switch for the heater but I'd have to see it first.I read the link and didn't really understand what it was saying.On the front of the control panel near the ground terminal it says it has a floating nuetral what ever that means. The heater was installed in 2005
View Quote




Run an extension cord and test it.  Only way to be sure.
Link Posted: 3/9/2021 6:45:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




Run an extension cord and test it.  Only way to be sure.
View Quote


Do I need to ground the generator to do this?
Link Posted: 3/9/2021 10:46:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Do I need to ground the generator to do this?
View Quote




No. Think of this....campers run their campers off generators all the time and they don’t drive ground rods.
Link Posted: 3/10/2021 12:22:18 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




No. Think of this....campers run their campers off generators all the time and they don’t drive ground rods.
View Quote

Ok good,thanks for taking the time to help I appreciate it.
Link Posted: 3/10/2021 7:10:09 AM EDT
[#22]
I wish that I understood "grounding" better.    I have thousands of hours running generators between the Marine Corps and my civilian life.   I have run on cords connected to the generator.   I have run generators tied into a grounded distribution panel.   I have never hooked a generator to a ground rod.   I have used plugs that plugged into the genset that tied Neutral to Ground at the generator.

That National Electric Code says that there should be only one Ground Neutral Bond for a system.   This is typically in your main panel.   Generators typically do not have a ground neutral bond because they are prepared to be connected to the panel.   So if you are running a generator and do not connect to the panel then you will probably not have a ground neutral bond.   Some sensitive electronics and ground fault circuit plugs may not function correctly under these conditions.   Fridge/freezers/etc that are in good working order will function properly.  

Connecting your generator to your panel does three things without requiring further thought.   It provides a ground.  It provides a ground neutral bond.  It allows the flexibility of running more loads without cords running everywhere.   The downside of this approach is that makes it easier to overload your generator.  

2Hut8
Link Posted: 3/10/2021 9:37:12 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Ok good,thanks for taking the time to help I appreciate it.
View Quote



There is nothing wrong with driving a ground rod where you plan to place the generator and connecting the generator to it but you don’t HAVE to.
Link Posted: 3/10/2021 2:32:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I wish that I understood "grounding" better.    I have thousands of hours running generators between the Marine Corps and my civilian life.   I have run on cords connected to the generator.   I have run generators tied into a grounded distribution panel.   I have never hooked a generator to a ground rod.   I have used plugs that plugged into the genset that tied Neutral to Ground at the generator.

That National Electric Code says that there should be only one Ground Neutral Bond for a system.   This is typically in your main panel.   Generators typically do not have a ground neutral bond because they are prepared to be connected to the panel.   So if you are running a generator and do not connect to the panel then you will probably not have a ground neutral bond.   Some sensitive electronics and ground fault circuit plugs may not function correctly under these conditions.   Fridge/freezers/etc that are in good working order will function properly.  

Connecting your generator to your panel does three things without requiring further thought.   It provides a ground.  It provides a ground neutral bond.  It allows the flexibility of running more loads without cords running everywhere.   The downside of this approach is that makes it easier to overload your generator.  

2Hut8
View Quote

I wish I understood electrical stuff better all the way around.Can you tell me what a floating neutral is?
Can you tell me what a floating
Link Posted: 3/10/2021 8:09:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I wish I understood electrical stuff better all the way around.Can you tell me what a floating neutral is?
Can you tell me what a floating
View Quote


We can tell you what a floating neutral is, but the reasons why will take a lot of typing.

Trying to keep this short.......

Your “neutral” is actually called the grounded conductor.......don’t confuse this with the grounding conductor.......
This conductor is bonded at the main service panel, what this does is ensure that the grounding system of your house is at the same potential as the utility grounded conductor. This makes everything at earth potential.

The main goal of the grounding conductor is to provide a fault current path to trip the over current device, it is not to keep people from getting shocked......that’s what GFI protection is for.
Link Posted: 3/10/2021 9:54:10 PM EDT
[#26]
This stuff comes around often.
Cheapest way to tie in is with a lockout plate kit. It allows all circuits to be energized and you decide what to use within the limits of your generator.

A grounding rod shunts shorts to ground, so the generator chassis doesn't float with power and make you part of a circuit when you touch it.  Take a look at your generator and see how many wires are coming from the generator head or are attached to the back of the receptacles.
Link Posted: 3/11/2021 7:11:19 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I wish I understood electrical stuff better all the way around.Can you tell me what a floating neutral is?
Can you tell me what a floating
View Quote


I assume that you are referring to this post:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Outdoors/Inverter-Gen-andgt-Mini-Transfer-Switch-Project/17-699772/

I cannot provide an authorative answer.   I believe that a floating neutral is a situation where the neutral is not connected to ground.   This allows there to be an additional voltage level in the system and it can cause potentially dangerous situations.  Example:   in a typical 120 volt system there are two voltages.   One is 120 volts (black wire) and the other is 0 volts (white wire).   In a perfect world the green wire will measure the same as the white wire, 0 volts.    If the system isn't grounded then the voltage level on the ground (which we will call the green wire despite the fact that there may not be an actual wire to measure from like the frame of a generator or even a concrete slab in the driveway) could be different.   So the "green wire" could have a voltage value that isn't zero.   I have seen a case where the difference between the "green wire" and the white wire was 50 Volts.   So the difference between the black wire and white is 120 volts.   But the difference between the black wire and the "green wire" was 170 volts.    See where this could go bad?   It gets worse.   If you touched the white wire (which should be zero volts) and then touched the wet pavement, then you would be the path for that 50 volts to go some place.   My parents had this problem in their house.   If you touched a multimeter to their aluminum siding and checked the voltage between the aluminum siding and a good earth ground, you would measure 50 volts ac.   If you jumped out of the pool and grabbed the handle on the aluminum storm door you really felt it.    So my understanding is that "Grounding the Neutral" is to ensure that "0 volts" is truly "0 volts" and you cannot get electrocuted by components that should not have any voltage on them.  

I have also seen ground loops, which happens if two different grounds are connected with different potential.   This is not a good situation to be in but very unlikely to happen when you are dealing with a portable generator installation.   Typically this only happens when grounds are hundreds of feet apart.   But I believe that the National Electric Code allows only one "Earth Ground Connection" per system to prevent this from happening.  

You could put in a ground rod but there wouldn't be any guarantee that it would provide an electrical path to ground.   I saw a generator install where they installed a questionable ground rod.   It took about ten pounds of pressure to sink the eight foot rod into the sand next to the pad.   The guy that put it thought that it was just going to keep going like to was just falling into a void in the ground.    I don't know how that can provide an electrical path to ground but the installer didn't seem to care.   He said that it as long as it was there the inspector would approve it.  

To me, the safest solution is to rely on the grounding system that you are already using.   This is in your existing panel.   Again, if you can equip your panel with a manual interlock then it will simplify a lot of things for you.  

Disclaimer:   I do not have a THOROUGH understanding of grounding electrical components.   I can make my stuff work but I have formal training on the basics of electricity and I always have a multimeter handy to help me troubleshoot issues that come up.

I hope that helps,

2Hut8
Link Posted: 3/11/2021 4:21:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Looks like the best thing for me to do at this point is to get the bigger generator running so I will have a main and backup generator and save some money up and have an electrician wire in a transfer switch or install an
interlock switch.I think we're about done with the really cold weather here so the heater can wait.The stormy weather starts today,if the power goes out I can use the smaller generator with an extension cord for the
refrigerator and freezer.
Thanks everybody for taking the time to help I really appreciate it.
Link Posted: 3/13/2021 2:20:40 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I assume that you are referring to this post:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Outdoors/Inverter-Gen-andgt-Mini-Transfer-Switch-Project/17-699772/

I cannot provide an authorative answer.   I believe that a floating neutral is a situation where the neutral is not connected to ground.   This allows there to be an additional voltage level in the system and it can cause potentially dangerous situations.  Example:   in a typical 120 volt system there are two voltages.   One is 120 volts (black wire) and the other is 0 volts (white wire).   In a perfect world the green wire will measure the same as the white wire, 0 volts.    If the system isn't grounded then the voltage level on the ground (which we will call the green wire despite the fact that there may not be an actual wire to measure from like the frame of a generator or even a concrete slab in the driveway) could be different.   So the "green wire" could have a voltage value that isn't zero.   I have seen a case where the difference between the "green wire" and the white wire was 50 Volts.   So the difference between the black wire and white is 120 volts.   But the difference between the black wire and the "green wire" was 170 volts.    See where this could go bad?   It gets worse.   If you touched the white wire (which should be zero volts) and then touched the wet pavement, then you would be the path for that 50 volts to go some place.   My parents had this problem in their house.   If you touched a multimeter to their aluminum siding and checked the voltage between the aluminum siding and a good earth ground, you would measure 50 volts ac.   If you jumped out of the pool and grabbed the handle on the aluminum storm door you really felt it.    So my understanding is that "Grounding the Neutral" is to ensure that "0 volts" is truly "0 volts" and you cannot get electrocuted by components that should not have any voltage on them.  

I have also seen ground loops, which happens if two different grounds are connected with different potential.   This is not a good situation to be in but very unlikely to happen when you are dealing with a portable generator installation.   Typically this only happens when grounds are hundreds of feet apart.   But I believe that the National Electric Code allows only one "Earth Ground Connection" per system to prevent this from happening.  

You could put in a ground rod but there wouldn't be any guarantee that it would provide an electrical path to ground.   I saw a generator install where they installed a questionable ground rod.   It took about ten pounds of pressure to sink the eight foot rod into the sand next to the pad.   The guy that put it thought that it was just going to keep going like to was just falling into a void in the ground.    I don't know how that can provide an electrical path to ground but the installer didn't seem to care.   He said that it as long as it was there the inspector would approve it.  

To me, the safest solution is to rely on the grounding system that you are already using.   This is in your existing panel.   Again, if you can equip your panel with a manual interlock then it will simplify a lot of things for you.  

Disclaimer:   I do not have a THOROUGH understanding of grounding electrical components.   I can make my stuff work but I have formal training on the basics of electricity and I always have a multimeter handy to help me troubleshoot issues that come up.

I hope that helps,

2Hut8
View Quote

No,I had not seen that,but that is the set up that I was thinking about only using the Reliant brand switch.
He did experience the problem that ColtRifle talked about the heater not working and he also has a floating
neutral and how he was able to fix it.He also didn't ground his generator and everything worked fine.
Thanks for the link I'll have to ask him a few questions.
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