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Posted: 8/14/2018 10:57:36 PM EDT
[#1]
Given the cost v. benefit that's utterly insane.
Especially considering WWVB is on the list. The number of users on the HF bands is probably an unknown, but WWVB drives a huge number of time bases, including a lot that aren't candidates for GPS due to their locations. |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 10:06:42 AM EDT
[#2]
What uses WWVB these days except for cheap Chinese "atomic" clocks/wristwatches?
GPS is the de facto standard for time and frequency transfer. WWV is cheap and convenient for ham radio and SWL users, but nobody else that I know uses it. Hell, I've got a GPSDO running my station. While there must be some number of legacy scientific and industrial users of WWV and WWVB, that number has got to be really small. What am I missing? If they do kill WWV there will be a million sub-$50 designs for GPS derived 10MHz references on the market very quickly, and they'll only be bought by hams. Not as cheap and convenient as WWV, but still not a show-stopper. |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 10:18:17 AM EDT
[#3]
Clock references that can't use GPS because of location. I believe some traffic control systems use it. Probably alot of stuff we don't realize.
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Posted: 8/15/2018 11:35:48 AM EDT
[#4]
WWV is my go to propagation beacon.
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Posted: 8/15/2018 2:17:15 PM EDT
[#5]
I'd hate to see WWV go away, the GPS is nice but more subject to interference/ government shut down for security purposes than the stuff in Boulder.
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Posted: 8/15/2018 3:16:41 PM EDT
[#6]
GPS doesn't work indoors. WWVB is used to set clocks inside buildings all over the place.
(A fair number of embedded devices as well.) There's quite a few industrial frequency standards that use WWV, too. My bet is that no one really knows how pervasive it is in the installed base and if the shutdown actually happens there's going to be some surprise "gotchas" that happen that will cost more than what it takes to run WWV to fix. Seriously in the realm of .gov budgets $6M is nothing. Don't forget WWV also broadcasts a lot of supplemental data like storm warnings, space weather and the like. Seems shortsighted to kill off what would be a pretty important backup. Something happens to satellites and it's going to be pretty bad news. |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 3:30:40 PM EDT
[#7]
It's petty, but I would be bummed if my watch stopped syncing to WWVB every night
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Posted: 8/15/2018 3:47:19 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WWV is my go to propagation beacon. 
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Posted: 8/15/2018 4:46:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
What uses WWVB these days except for cheap Chinese "atomic" clocks/wristwatches? GPS is the de facto standard for time and frequency transfer. WWV is cheap and convenient for ham radio and SWL users, but nobody else that I know uses it. Hell, I've got a GPSDO running my station. While there must be some number of legacy scientific and industrial users of WWV and WWVB, that number has got to be really small. What am I missing? If they do kill WWV there will be a million sub-$50 designs for GPS derived 10MHz references on the market very quickly, and they'll only be bought by hams. Not as cheap and convenient as WWV, but still not a show-stopper. Quoted:
It's petty, but I would be bummed if my watch stopped syncing to WWVB every night |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 5:56:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are right. Only a few computers out there rely on it . . . like every machine running any version of Microsoft Windows! Same here and it wasn't a cheap watch. But I use that watch to set every other clock/watch in my house. .... no. Yes. Computers rely on accurate timekeeping. No, they don’t use HF to do it. |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 6:08:02 PM EDT
[#11]
A few years ago WWV/B changed the digital format. That killed many WWV/B rcvrs ability to decode properly. My alarm clock everything became useless. As far as I am concerned, shutting off WWV/B is the same thing. Sticking with the website's forum, there is lady heather which connects your computer, and just about anything attached to it, to the gps.
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Posted: 8/15/2018 7:04:17 PM EDT
[#12]
When I was a kid, I used to set my watch by WWV. Pretty cool using my father's HF rig for that.
Nowadays, I use Dimension 4 to keep my PC's synced up (via internet) to the correct time. I don't know what my Mac Pro uses, but it hasn't been wrong in 10 years. Close enough for me. |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 9:09:00 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Computers have a HF receiver listening to WWv? .... no. Yes. Computers rely on accurate timekeeping. No, they don't use HF to do it. Although I never asked the developers back when I had access to them, I'm pretty sure that it uses your Internet connection to reach out to WWV for the time. It is done on a specific interval (which if you know how to change the number in the Registry you can change it to suit your needs), I believe default is weekly. |
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Posted: 8/15/2018 10:34:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd hate to see WWV go away, the GPS is nice but more subject to interference/ government shut down for security purposes than the stuff in Boulder. ETA: Not to mention other critical infrastructure like 911 call centers that use GPSDOs are well. You can't fuck with the timecode on the GPS system without causing major outages in a lot of infrastructure. |
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Posted: 8/16/2018 7:39:54 AM EDT
[#15]
Bummer.
I finally just figured out how to use WWV to get a good time hack for FT8 when operating portable away from the internet not to mention 3 out of my 4 watches use it for sync. |
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Posted: 8/16/2018 1:16:22 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And risk fucking up the cell network? Every cell site requires GPS time sync for call handling. ETA: Not to mention other critical infrastructure like 911 call centers that use GPSDOs are well. You can't fuck with the timecode on the GPS system without causing major outages in a lot of infrastructure. |
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Posted: 8/16/2018 6:09:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are/ or were provisions to modify/ alter the GPS system during national emergencies so it could NOT be used in targeting. Just when you need it most . . . Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: And risk fucking up the cell network? Every cell site requires GPS time sync for call handling. ETA: Not to mention other critical infrastructure like 911 call centers that use GPSDOs are well. You can't fuck with the timecode on the GPS system without causing major outages in a lot of infrastructure. |
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Posted: 8/16/2018 9:31:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at how many aircraft rely on it now? How'd we ever find a boat in the middle of the ocean, before the advent of the GPS? 
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Posted: 8/16/2018 9:38:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Geesh, kids.... How'd we ever find a boat in the middle of the ocean, before the advent of the GPS? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Look at how many aircraft rely on it now? How'd we ever find a boat in the middle of the ocean, before the advent of the GPS? 
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Posted: 8/17/2018 1:25:32 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Geesh, kids.... How'd we ever find a boat in the middle of the ocean, before the advent of the GPS? They actually transmit RTTY in the VHF band. It's not an accident that GPS's nav messages are sent at 50 baud. |
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Posted: 8/17/2018 11:40:55 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Before GPS, there was TRANSIT. They actually transmit RTTY in the VHF band. It's not an accident that GPS's nav messages are sent at 50 baud.
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Posted: 8/17/2018 2:16:25 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And before that, there was the pencil and paper method, powered by brains. Which is what we used in my squadron. |
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Posted: 8/17/2018 6:14:15 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never said that computers use HF. Although I never asked the developers back when I had access to them, I'm pretty sure that it uses your Internet connection to reach out to WWV for the time. It is done on a specific interval (which if you know how to change the number in the Registry you can change it to suit your needs), I believe default is weekly. Both of those almost certainly get their time from GPS via a bitsclock in their respective datacenters. FWIW, I work for a large ISP and we have a bunch of Symmetricom bitsclocks getting their time from NTP, spread out across our network. Our NTP servers hit the bitsclocks for timing. Everything else hits the NTP servers. |
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Posted: 8/17/2018 7:56:08 PM EDT
[#24]
Is it the same service that clocks and wristwatches use to auto sync time?
If yes, its a dumb move by the government. The cost to maintain it is nothing compared to the benefits. I have 3 clocks in the house and a wristwatch depend on it. Will Casio refund $300 I paid for the fancy wristwatch with automatic time sync? |
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Posted: 8/17/2018 11:08:49 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is it the same service that clocks and wristwatches use to auto sync time? If yes, its a dumb move by the government. The cost to maintain it is nothing compared to the benefits. I have 3 clocks in the house and a wristwatch depend on it. Will Casio refund $300 I paid for the fancy wristwatch with automatic time sync? taking WWV offline but leaving WWVB, but no, it's the whole set of them. The crazy thing is other countries will still be running theirs, e.g. China and Europe. Casio says depending on the version, they may use up to 5 or six different stations: USA (Fort Collins, CO) 60kHz WWVB United Kingdom (Anthorn) 60kHz MSF Germany (Mainflingen) 77.5kHz DCF77 Japan (Fukushima) 40kHz JJY Japan (Kyushu Island) 60kHz JJY China (Xi’an) 2.5/5/10/15MHz BPM I doubt they'll refund since the watch still works. It'll certainly kill the US market for them though. The bigger deal is there's cheap $10 and under WWVB modules in a lot of equipment that's set up to be fire-and-forget installations. If they go through with it I bet there's going to be a market for GPS to near-field 60 KHz "fake" WWVB transmiters because replacing that much installed equipment is going to be impossible. |
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Posted: 8/19/2018 10:20:05 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And risk fucking up the cell network? Every cell site requires GPS time sync for call handling. ETA: Not to mention other critical infrastructure like 911 call centers that use GPSDOs are well. You can't fuck with the timecode on the GPS system without causing major outages in a lot of infrastructure. |
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Posted: 8/20/2018 9:12:40 AM EDT
[#27]
dupe
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Posted: 8/20/2018 9:21:39 AM EDT
[#28]
Just a matter of time before someone makes small 60kHz transmitter connected to a PC.
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Posted: 8/20/2018 10:03:51 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just a matter of time before someone makes small 60kHz transmitter connected to a PC. https://www.anishathalye.com/2016/12/26/micro-wwvb/ |
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Posted: 8/20/2018 11:36:17 AM EDT
[#30]
At my last corporate gig we had one of the master time servers at one of our locations. It had two GPS antennas connected to it and a WWVB receiver on it. There was math in the system to compare all three times and then come up with an accurate time. This was synced with another master about 35 miles away. They compared with each other constantly factoring in network latency all the time. The first antenna for WWVB was interesting to say the least. It looked like a 4" doughnut that was mounted outdoors.
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Posted: 8/23/2018 5:45:38 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just a matter of time before someone makes small 60kHz transmitter connected to a PC. https://www.anishathalye.com/2016/12/26/micro-wwvb/ |
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Posted: 8/27/2018 7:29:16 PM EDT
[#32]
Sign a petition to keep it on the air. I did. Forward this link to your friends.
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Posted: 8/27/2018 8:32:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hold on, gotta reinstall my LORAN! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Look at how many aircraft rely on it now? How'd we ever find a boat in the middle of the ocean, before the advent of the GPS? |
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Posted: 8/27/2018 10:05:13 PM EDT
[#34]
If they want to cut spending, maybe they ought to cut the overseas spending that benefits this country very little instead of something that is a necessary benefit to this country. There are a thousand useless money wasting projects overseas that would keep millions here for domestic use.
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Posted: 9/1/2018 8:20:59 PM EDT
[#35]
I think we all rely on GPS too much these days...
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Posted: 9/1/2018 9:42:37 PM EDT
[#36]
^Which works excellent, until it dont.
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Posted: 9/2/2018 10:05:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think we all rely on GPS too much these days... |
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Posted: 9/3/2018 9:54:31 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^Which works excellent, until it dont. Also redundancy is good. |
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Posted: 9/5/2018 5:41:14 PM EDT
[#39]
I have a few watches that use it for sync.
My Titanium EcoDrive Skyhawk AT is an amazing watch and I would hate to lose the auto sync function. |
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Posted: 9/5/2018 8:47:55 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sure, I remember that. But I doubt they would do anything like that now a days. Look at how many aircraft rely on it now? Plus there are other GPS like systems that are available that are not under US Gov. control. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: And risk fucking up the cell network? Every cell site requires GPS time sync for call handling. ETA: Not to mention other critical infrastructure like 911 call centers that use GPSDOs are well. You can't fuck with the timecode on the GPS system without causing major outages in a lot of infrastructure. besides airlners have INS and VOR, it would be a minor inconvenience among many other problems do you think we dont have the capability to spoof other GPS systems? |
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Posted: 9/5/2018 9:24:55 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
do you think we dont have the capability to spoof other GPS systems? |
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Posted: 9/6/2018 10:45:46 PM EDT
[#42]
For the record, it's up and running as of today (really wish they did tours)
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Posted: 9/9/2018 1:46:40 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For the record, it's up and running as of today (really wish they did tours) https://i.imgur.com/dj5av03.jpg Obscure tech shit like that fascinates me (obviously). I really hat to see this go and the WH petition is barely getting notice. |
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Posted: 9/18/2018 7:59:03 AM EDT
[#44]
I used the Canadian version of WWV on HF a few days ago, I wonder if they are going to shut theirs down too?
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