Hello all,

Quick background - I recently survived the aftermath (and still living the recovery) of the disaster of hurricane Michael in Panama City, FL.  The amount of devastation is hard to put into words short of what looks like a war zone.   The first 1.5 weeks we had no power/no water.  Generators could not be accessed in the first few days due to downed trees/structural damage that couldn't be solved with a simple chain saw (and poorly planned storage decisions - hindsight is 20/20).   Anyhow, we had multiple properties with significant damage and multiple exposed points of entry with an around-the-clock threat of looting (which was real, and personally experienced).  I had great flashlights in my kit (both mounted and hand held (and no shortage of self defense weapons), but what I quickly realized was my lack of low light visualization without giving away my position.  These modern day looters run in packs, and lighting them up (or one) up was nothing short of a giveaway and a tactical disadvantage.  Now to the point of my post.

I wish I would have had some sort of night vision in my bug out bag.  I do not have the resources (or need) for panoramic/mounted high dollar NVG - but I would like to ask those out there about options at a reasonable price. I don't plan on testing their durability in an operator sense of mind.  I have found multiple options (hunting spotters) on Amazon in the $200-400.  Some are "handheld" - others considered "handheld" but considerably larger.

In summary - I'd like to ask any recommendations on a good set of NVG/Monocular/Binoculars for disaster scenario that doesn't cost in the $2k range.  Single hand held vs. full size opinions on use/feasibility?  Reliability and clarity obviously relative - just want something to have an advantage in the pitch black of night to protect property and family in a similar scenario (which I hope to never experience again).

Appreciate any and all recommendations.

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P.S. - in the experience I realized a couple more things (and I had already thought my bags were overboard).  For reference, I drove into FL from TN.  It is my hometown - my family was out of the country and we had multiple commercial/residential properties that I knew would need attention after the storm reached Cat 4 (2mph under a 5).  For those with more experience - please add to the list as I would love to learn from others.

1.  Jerry can of fresh water (filled prior) - absolutely clutch in the first week.  Had no water pressure.  Used for hydration, showers, animals, etc.  While FEMA, national guard, red cross etc were in route, there was not a store open that had power and/or accessible by road.  Can also fill bathtub prior to for a supply of water for simply flushing a toilet.  I had to end up using bay water prior to restoration of water pressure (still non potable).  
2.  More specialty batteries on hand (CR123, etc) - I had plenty but high lumen lights eat through them quickly (obviously - but I would be lying if i wasn't counting days and # of batteries left).  Weak lights for indoor lighting can be tolerable, but when you need a torch to light up a potential looter - you find yourself replacing them before they're "dead".  
3.  Nutrition - A few MRE's are not enough.  Add electrolyte tabs to your pack - potable water (while even scarce initially) is not a reliable form of hydration (even when the caravans of supplies roll in and water bottles are everywhere, electrolytes are not).  Gatorade didn't exist in the first few days of 95+ degree heat - cramping was real, more severe dehydration can be light threatening (That's the physician in me talking, but regardless of geographical location, dehydration is real and can kill).  Also, don't forget some 5h energy for those of us caffeine addicts (or pack a portable source of coffee - which I neglected) - withdrawal sucks.  Hi, I'm an addict....

4.  Have a backup headlamp.

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5.  Personal gear-  Consider your backup clothing (especially footwear).  Don't forget a simple duty belt/similar (surprisingly easy to do) - You will quickly wish you had your OWB holster when you're constantly adjusting your IWB while sweating your ass off in regular clothes.  Make sure you have a set of "baby wipes" - for waterless showers, cleaning, etc.  Purel hand sanitizer is a must (buy a big one and tuck it away).
6.  Para cord and tensioners are helpful for laundry (obvious, but worth stating given the excess of seemingly excessive bracelets, etc).  I traveled into the zone to help my family and had only a limited amount of clothing.
7.  Accessory vehicle jerry can for gas would've been reassuring given the sparsity of fuel or gas stations with power and able to pump.
8.  Vehicle preparedness - I have a since purchase a portable compressor that runs off the battery terminals and includes a plug kit all incorporated into a M240 can.  When these things happen, there is a ton of debris in the road and a puncture can be a game ender (there wasn't a single tire store open in the first 48 hours and I drove over endless debris out of necessity holding my breath every time).  https://masterflowair.com/products/air-armor-m240.  Also, will be purchasing an LED light bar (which I used to think was a little over the top) -  amazing how hard downed powerlines are to see that would otherwise catch your windshield/roof rack.

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9.  Provisions/Storage - A good cooler is a game changer for ICE/Food until you can run a refridge on a generator.  YETI has become a social thing, but I'll be damned if I don't travel without one (or similar insulated model).
10.  Zip ties - easy to pack and oh my god the numbers of uses/applications.
11.  First Aid - (in addition to electrolytes) - will be adding hydrocortisone cream.  The amount of fiberglass insulation debris (I never knew how much was in the siding of our buildings) wrecked the skin on my arms.  Once it dries, nothing short of a hazmat suit and respirator is ideal but sometimes you don't have those choices.
12.  Communication - Smartphones hinder our perspective on access to information.  Luckily I was AT&T but ~50% of the county was without cell service due to damaged Verizon towers (which looked like roller coasters at first glance btw).  A good portable AM/FM is a good idea.  Luckily I was able to use iheartradio app on my phone but again, luck - not preparedness.  Portable power/battery banks were huge.  I charged them in my truck prior to gaining access to the generator.

Sorry for the long post.  Hope some can take at least 1 thing away from my experience.  I look forward to learning additional ideas/feedback from the community.

Thanks again - Colin

Great post- glad you’re hanging in, and thank you for sharing your learning lessons.

I’m tagged for info as well.

Doc... you have identified some shortfalls in your equipment... a couple of suggestions, and sorry if I add something you have covered, these are things I've added to my "hurricane" supply inventory

standardized headlamp (Black Diamond), task lights (SolarForce X2), Fenix E21, and area light (Colemen High Tech LED) as much as possible to AA NiMH (Eneloop), with multiple chargers running off one power strip for generator charging, also capable of 12v charging... as well as Recom weather alert radio and Grundig F200 that use AAs

my high throw light is a L2M SolarForce running on 18650s or primary cr123 (the M allows a single cr123)....long range thrower is M3 SolarForce head on L2n with extender for 3 x cr123

two multi day coolers , one to transport ice if available...I  pre chill and load with frozen gallon water jugs with approaching storm for my perishables

my stored water is in 20L Scepter cans, but would look at military water containers if you expect to transport... I have a 5gal Sawyer filter system for .2 micron, and a Sawyer mini in my go bag....   EGR supplement formula available on line using sugar, KCl, and NaCl... I vacuum sealed several packs in a food vacuum sealer... warm water for shower supplied by black painted garden sprayer (dedicated) which also supplies pressure

battery powered portable fan... an 18v Ridgid Construction fan is a recent addition, but a simple tent fan can run on a single D or a dual pack of the AAs for about 7 hrs... mosquito bar if you have to sleep outdoors

my 4x32 ACOGS have an 8mm exit pupil, and with minimum ambient light (and your eyes dilated) give a pretty good view of the neighborhood, the older TA01 is used hand held... a good friend has a pair of Wind River binoculars that have very good low light vision for the price

my generators are capable of being fueled with a squeeze bulb siphon system to allow taking fuel directly from portable cans

my dedicated hurricane canned food is lift top "chunky" soup and stews, and instant rice as an extended... perishables like lunch meat and hot dogs used first... I use propane camp/Asian style stoves, but have a gasoline stove back up...I heat water and pour through my Mr Coffee basket for tea/coffee.... a bag of candy helps... as well as peanut butter... I try to have a frozen loaf of bread in freezer ahead of a storm... bagels if possible

when relaxing, a pair of Teva sandals allows my feet and shoes to dry... typical clothing is nylon shorts and nylon or polypropylene athletic quick wicking shirt.. vented crown brimmed hat....DEET for bugs... laundry is done in a 5 gal bucket and liquid soap, bathing with liquid soap... I do splurge and heat water to shave

worst case, I have a small utility trailer that can transport key items to an evacuation site , and if needed be fixed with a 2x2 ridge pole to hold a blue tarp, with mosquito netting over a lounge chair will get me off the ground if I need a couple of nights or so to settle the claim on the house or provide security

you can never have too many 5 gallon buckets with water tight lids, as well as a couple of extra water cans and fuel cans... I keep 2 filled bulk propane cylinder in addition to the one being used

Regarding NV, I would stay well clear of the Amazon specials. They will fail sooner than later, and probably when you really need them.

Another point to consider is their use. If you are static and just observing thermals have a lot of advantages, if you need to move under them then you should get NV.

In an urban setting where you really need to only identify movement at greater than 1-200m and target ID under 100m Leupold and FLIR both offer great thermal units at less that $1,500 street price.

If you need NV I’d watch EE. Lots of folks start out with a pair of 7’s and upgrade so you can get into a quality used set around the $1k mark.

Great thread and thanks for the posts.

My mom and my sister, BIL, and their kids live in Panama City.  They all evacuated to Knoxville before the storm and the BIL went back in the day after.  His experience has been a lot like yours.

I am definitely interested in tips that I can bank and share with them as they recover.  Also interested in NV/Thermal for them, which needs to be in the same budget and for same purposes as you.

Luckily they did some prep for Irma last year, so the BIL had a good stash to get back to, but I know that they are going to need to do a serious restocking and improve communications and security significantly once they get the houses back in shape.

Just a suggestion on NV (I am no expert but use them for hog and coyote hunting for several years) as posted above you can get a gen 3 pvs 7 used for around $1000 maybe give or take a couple 100. Also suggest taking a look at the night vision section under the armory area. I know it may be more $ than what you would like to spend but trust me gen 3 is the way to go. Using either a pvs 7 or pvs 14 type you may also want to look at getting a bump helmet or night cap, this way you can scan hands free. I prefer a ops core bump helmet because you can mount a IR flashlight to improve clarity through the 14 or 7s especially if your in a no power area with little ambient light. Oh also I bought everything off the ee and saved a good amount from new( not knocking TNVC or ultimate night vision who are both sight sponsor and fantastic customer service).

Lasnyder - Thanks for the comment/feedback.  I very much agree I identified many shortfalls.  My wish list to expand my equipment is much larger than my medical resident salary and small apartment allow (last year of training, thankfully).  Your equipment list is comprehensive, and I definitely added some things to my list from your input/knowledge/experience.  Thanks again.

sea2summit - Great advice.  I figured it's a "you get what you pay for" scenario.  i'll keep an eye on EE.

WitchDoctor - Glad your family is safe.  I've got family/friends in the area - let me know if I can help him in any way.  They're getting back to some resemblance of normalcy, but there's still a long way to go.  Unfortunately there's still a lot of bad guys floating around too.

firemed13 - Thanks for the input.  I'm digging the g3PVS 7's.

Thanks for the report, hearing from people in your situation is priceless. How bad has the looting been? I've seen some reports that things were bad in panama city, but my guess is that the media is suppressing the story a bit. Did people work together to stop it really?

Regarding fiberglass insulation, a dry bar of soap will get it out of your skin.

Regarding flat tires, invest in a good tire plug kit similar to this. Don’t forget a pair of dykes to pull shit out of the tire before plugging. If you have time to prepare, one spare isn’t enough.

Energy chews or gels used by long-distance runners, such as GU or Honey Stinger, are a good source of electrolytes that are easy to carry and don’t require water for mixing.

I suggest you review this current thread and consider the SiOnyx camera. The current sale price is $639 and fairly close to your budget, while providing some visual evidence of what you're encountering without exposing yourself if you also get some cheap IR illumination.

SiOnyx AR-15 Thread

IR illum is not always a good thing, absolutely not a good thing if it is persistently on. Any black and white camera (even a phone) can see it. This is the newest way people are sterling hunting cameras and home security systems, simple sweep with a camera at night and they are visible from a very long way away.

My iPhone Xr can barely see my 940nm flashlight from about 2 feet away looking directly into it. I cannot see it with just my eye at night from a foot away.  That faint pink dot is the light.  The much brighter green light is a LED nightlight about 20 feet away in the background.  850nm IR is another story and is usually visible to the naked eye.  I think 850nm is the most common illumination built into security cameras, but they may vary.  Anyway, you can switch the IR flashlight on & off with the tailcap switch just like most other flashlights, and having the ability to record or just illuminate a dynamic situation could be very useful, especially in possible future identification of creepers.

That looks awesome for the money and with guns, armor and other preps taken care of, would fill a huge hole in my game plan. Thanks for the tip..

You're welcome.  I've had mine for a few months now and play with it every night.  I have yet to find any drawbacks to the camera, and am still amazed at the capability it offers.  I should be a rep for them.  If anyone needs any tips or has more questions, I'd be glad to help if I can.

I'm looking into NV/thermal myself for the same reasons. I have the chance to play with PVS 14 and it was crazy good. like turn night into day time good. I used a Trijicon REAPR and it was amazing, but like $7k is too much for me.

I've also used the leopold thermal hand held and a cheaper ATN or similar hand held NV. neither of those were worth carrying around. Honestly I'd rather not even use them.

I'm saving up for pvs-14 and hoping that thermal starts dropping in price. I have read up on how the technology works, and thankfully thermal and digital stuff gets to get cheaper in time, while the PVS is specific tech that won't get cheaper. I live suburban now, and have a number of good lights and I"m near enough sights with generators, I don't think it will be total darkness here. when I move rural the PVS will be super high on the list, but now it's not as important as other stuff to me.

as far as other preps:
inverter generator. pretty cheap, run enough stuff, last a while
NATO gas cans. good cans are $40/each but knowing I have 20+ gallons of gas is worth it
rain barrel for collection. I have 300 gallons of self filling/cleaning/cycling water. I would need to boil but it's good for everything else straight. start with 1 barrel and go from there
cheap LED lanterns. Good enough for indoor use
more food and water than you think you need.
5 gallon water cooler bottles. we use them and they fill at 25 cents a gallon at the local store. usually have 35+ gallons ready to go. can dispense with no electric, too.

It actually can't see 940nm at all, the pink glow you see is basically light static, for lack of an easier description, created while making 940nm light.  Find a camera with  any sort of night mode and that light will very readily appear, a black and whit camera will hit the lower end of the ir spectrum 820-900ish nm.

That's good to know and valuable info.   Same situation with a PVS-14, IR will give you up if they have optics.

I think the tailcap clicky instant on/off would be valuable in the looter situation.   Fortunately the SiOnyx camera doesn't require the IR unless it is very dark. Anyone roaming around probably won't be able to see so they'll most likely provide more than enough light themselves to spot anyway.  If they are pros, you're probably screwed anyway.  But if they are scrappers, or looters, you can get some pretty good snapshots and/or videos of them without much danger of exposure.  I'm talking a 50-100 yard distance from your subjects.  Another feature this camera has is, it can trigger video record mode from a recoil event.  Recording either 30 seconds before, 15/15 before & after, or 30 seconds after recoil.  Pretty nifty feature, eh?

Edited to add:  The SiOnyx website lists their camera sensitivity range as between 400-1100 nanometers FYI.

no matter how much you spend on high tech NV gear, you can't protect "around the clock".
you can't stay awake and alert 24x7.   you need 4 or 5 guys to protect one site 24x7 *and* get stuff done during the day.

and as i found out in the aftermath of Sandy, a lot of people you need to worry about are going to show up at 8am, in the morning light.
they will be out-of-town "contractors" and "tree guys" and "roofers" and "plumbers" and so on -- or whatever they call themselves that day.

these folks will seek a damaged and unoccupied house, strap on a toolbelt, walk right by the neighbors carrying some pumps or tarps or whatnot, and go right inside.
anyone asks, "the homeowners called my company, i got dispatched here by the boss.  i usually don't work in this area.  this isn't 123 main street?"

ar-jedi

3GeorgeMidnight - The looting was real.  Local radio covered it frequently.  I had some LEO stop by the house while checking on the neighborhood and verified it was more than they expected.  Hard to really know the true amount.  I do know that the jails were too full and even had a guy caught on one of our properties trying to get away with a motorcycle -- cops got him, wrote citation, and off he went.  Neighborhoods got pretty tight.  We all worked together and any unfamiliar cars or faces got necessary attention.  And yes, national media definitely downplayed it.  I read a story of "People looting out of necessity for survival" - last time I checked you can't eat a motorcycle, or a flat screen TV.

ME2112 - great advice.  I'll remember that next time.  And my new air compressor came with a great tool kit/plugs/valves/etc.

Draver - It's now on my watch list.  Appreciate the info.

ar-jedi - couldn't agree more.  I realized I couldn't be up 24/7.  I forced myself to sleep but you're always waking to any sound outside the house or at the first bark of a dog.  Couldn't help that.  As far as the day people - you're 100% correct.  Those are the crafty ones that are likely much more successful.  Fortunately, the majority are dumb and move at night - but they're also the ones more frequently armed.  I realize NV/Thermal/Arsenal of weapons won't fix a problem, but it'll for sure give me some reassurance/advantage when I'm scanning the property after dark or investigating sounds that shouldn't be there.  The rest (and majority) as I realized, is out of my hands

get a job box and screw it to the floor -- after Sandy my brother and i had to do a ton of work at my mom's flooded out house.  my brother managed to borrow a Knack box and holy shit was that thing stout.

do what we did: take your box, drive qty 4 structural screws though the bottom holes and into the floor joists below it -- a casual looter isn't going to have the tools nor the manpower to dislodge and/or move a loaded 300-400lb job box which is screwed to the floor.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GRK-Fasteners-5-16-in-x-4-in-RSS-Alternative-Lag-Screw-96005/204837500?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal2_rr-_-203525067-_-204837500-_-N

ar-jedi

No offense but I wouldnt waste money on the digi nv camera. Id buy the 7s with the best tube you can get or buy one of the blem 14s on the EE. There was one asking 1400... send him an offer, Id say the blem on it would scare off the enthusiasts but would work fine for you.

So whats the consensus on taking care of the looters? I've got a few ideas that probably violate the COC.

They are generally bottom feeding cowards and will run away if you turned on a flashlight and confronted them, the small percentage that does not respond to this will probably create their own destiny can probably be dealt with as appropriate given the law of the land...especially in FL/AL/GA.

Decent thermals can now be had at cheaper than Gen III night vision and are a great choice IMO.  Useful examples can be found for well under $2,000

Which ones?  There are some very good sub $2k units out there but I would find it hard to believe you will find better definition out of a thermal that costs less than a Gen III NV.

For thermal scanning, look into the Seek CompactPro (very small $369 - $399 imager that plugs into your smartphone and uses that as the screen), or RevealPro (standalone $640 on Amazon).

Not the highest resolution, but it will easily spot human sized thermal signatures from 100-200+ yards out. Added advantage of being able to use it for lots of other things (electrical shorts causing overheating,  missing/inadequate insulation, which electrical wires/items have power etc.)

Use it to scan for thermal signatures, use gen3 ii for ID and navigation.

I can imagine how much they want to suppress it in that they ignored it right before the election and missed a chance to attack Trump. Sandy here was worse then they let on as well.

There is a general discussion night vision thread ongoing now, should be in the first 4 pages or so I think.  Worth finding it.  I also agree on reading in the armory.  The colawarrior threads in general discussion also get into night vision pretty well.

On the light issue.  Headlight for working would be 1 light.  A light that uses an led and run on a single cell would be 2nd light.  3rd light would be used just for checking things way out there or blinding an intruder and basically used only for that so you are not using up batteries too quickly.

The single cell led is for getting the last bit out of your batteries.  I have a single cell light for each battery type I use the most and when I swap batteries out of say a weapon light, those old batteries go to the box I have for the single battery light.

Headlight is handy as heck but I like a handheld sometimes for stuff.  And super bright light right now would be a light I took off my rifle I guess cause it is the brightest and bestest I have now.

The topic of budget nv comes up every so often. Sometimes all the advice doesn't quell the urge to try something, anything.
The gen one stuff sucks and is a waste of money...that is all. If 20 meters with an IR source is good, then that's what you get for $100.

Stuff that requires you to stare at a screen, ie cell phone devices, throw light at your face and all around.
If you're looking for lurkers, anything works, but the flir sounds appealing. A quick scan can reveal people hunkered down, standing still, a bit out of range of nvg, etc.

There are NV rental outfits, try them and see for yourself.

Go to guys who eat peeps and drink coke until they puke for advice

I have never been to a colawarrior.

However, their threads show they have a lot of night vision stuff show up at their contests.  They often offer to let people try things out if they just show up.  Since they actually compete with night vision in some cases you actually have people running around and shooting with their stuff vs. some here who may have gone into their basement or a closet to see how well their night vision works.

Just the threads can be comedy gold, and educational.

How about a used one of these...itt mariner night vision.
I have no personal experience with them but sounds like what you want.  There were a couple on eBay recently.

I’ve moved almost entirely to rechargeable lights. My EDC flashlight takes a rechargeable lithium or AAs. Headlamp is rechargeable via USB or can take 3 AAA’s if necessary. Handheld bright lights are either USB rechargeable or 18650-powered, both of which can be recharged via USB(either directly or single-cell charger).

I began to hate trying to keep batteries topped off on regularly-used lights. Are they dead, almost dead, who knows? They all took AA’s or AAA’s, all Eneloop, but it’s annoying. Now I just pop them on a USB cord and top them off when not being used. In a power outage I’d use a mother battery to lower the need for a generator, whether in the form of 12V and 12V USB chargers or just USB power banks.

My Rechargeables:
Headlamp-Petzyl Actik Core.
Handheld Flashlight-NEBO Slyde King(wife loves it, USB rechargeable), NiteCore MH10(recharges internal 18650)
Of course we still have other lights that run on conventional batteries.

We have some lanterns too, with adapters I can use rechargeable AA or C’s, or disposable D’s. No internally rechargeable ones there yet as we don’t use them often.

Now the real answer when you need light to work or live by is cordless power tools to go with your headlamp. I use Milwaukee, both M18 and M12, so grab one or more of their LED lanterns or flashlights and enjoy massive light and runtime. You can charge them from a generator or inverter very quickly and use minimal fuel.

Sense a theme? When you NEED light you need lithium and you need rechargeable, whether plugging the flashlight in directly or swapping cells.

Edit: I know you originally asked about NV but then you went off on a tangent about needing more disposable batteries... Btw as a result of this thread PVS 7’s moved higher on my want list.

TJ may be along to talk about the decades of technology he has on stuff.

I have a few decades and it shows if I pull a lot of stuff out.  He might go back to a lit candle on the end of the sword.  :D

Anyway, I have some surefire stuff that I changed from incandescent to led.  Lets the batteries last longer and in all cases gives equal or more amounts of light.

I got some light mounts that let me use some of these 2 cell cr123a lights on a rifle.  Yes they are way behind today's tech.  But it gives me a light on more stuff.

I settled on streamlight for some weapon lights, both regular and high output these days.  Still use 2 cr123a batteries.  These are tlr stuff, the big ones not the newer smaller ones.

I got a lot of batteries on hand.  With black friday almost here you can once again find batteries at $1 a battery or less.  Bought in bulk.  But not that bulky.

Anyway, I eventually buy some of the newer better stuff but often it has been out for a while and is on sale or barely used for me to spend the money on it.

What I have works.  And this does wrap around to being the story of the person who uses their stuff on a regular basis knows what he/she has.  Someone with the latest greatest bought and in hand but untested stuff, well good luck.

For "No Shoot" scenarios a good dog comes in REAL handy. I have a Malinois that will walk/run right up to you without barking and do what they are known to do.