I know 6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 has been discussed to death and i have read all of it (not really but a LOT). I know that on paper 6.5 basically wins everywhere by a small margin.

But here is my situation. I have a 6.5 GRENDEL and love it. But now I am living in Montana and would like to try taking elk next year. Not looking for a massive trophy bull, just meat in the freezer cow if I can. Also i have access to two 1100 yrd ranges to practice and enjoy learning longer range shooting. I work with some hunting guides. They like 300 win mag but they also shoot elk at 800+ yards. I cant see myself shooting game past 400 yrd. Even 400 feels like a lot to me at this point.

I had my mine made up on 308 for all the obvious reasons. Manageable recoil, cartridge availability (VERY important to me after the last ammo fiasco), very acceptable terminal ballistics at moderate ranges. I have to admit I don't love massive recoil. Also, expensive cartridges mean less practice and I like to shoot hunting rifle a lot before I really feel comfortable with them. I know some people will say 308 is not enough for elk. I do respect this opinion and will consider it. But i also know a lot of people personally here that use it with success at reasonable distance. But I admit that I am new to this so will accept advice. My mind is/was pretty well set on 308. between 5.56 and 308 i could hunt everything from hog and deer in the southeast to bigger game and do some longer distance shooting.

But i have recently started considering 6.5 Creedmoor. What i like is less recoil (just being honest that i shoot lower recoil better) and better trajectory (less important since once i range and dial i still need to know dope). Energy looks very comparable to 308 and sometimes even better out over 400 yards. But what really surprised me is price and availability. Right now PSA has more 6.5 and cheaper than 308. that combined with the lighter recoil could really help me spend that much more time shooting and practicing.  

More than likely i will go with a Tikka T3x but I am considering a Howa 1500. The Tikka has a very thin barrel. I have talked with a few smiths about having it threaded for my suppressor. One trusted smith quoted threading requirements that would make the 6.5 easier to thread. This makes sense since 6.5 threaded at 1/2x28 leaves more wall thickness than 7.62 threaded at 1/2x28. 7.62 he recommended using a larger thread which means cutting the barrel thicker. He did admit that 1/2x28 would work on 7.62 if round count was low. it would be less likely to cause the mouth to bell and affect accuracy. But i would LIKE to shoot a lot and not worry about that.

So these factors have me considering 6.5 even though i promised myself i would stick with the "common military cartridges". Is 6.5 Creedmoor just too much of a handicap for big game? Something feels better about hitting bigger game with a 30 cal but i know 6.5mm bullets have been killing big game for a long time. Any thoughts?

At 400 it makes no difference match the bullet to the best guess impact speed based on how and where you think you'll be hunting and go whack your elk.  I've gone pretty deep on 308 and enjoy it but would probably look at 7-08 if I did it all over.

Between those two, it comes down to anticipated range. Both are competent elk cartridges. Depending on the load, after 4-500 yards, the 6.5 is going to outpace the .308. 800 and beyond and hit probability markedly shifts in 6.5's favor. For hunting, I like 6.5, mostly because recoil is a little less, so it's easier to stay on-target. If I have to take one of my .308's, no big deal; I'm good-to-go.

Whatever you get, buy a crap ton of good ammo so you can get good with it.

Build a large-frame AR with uppers for either cartridge... then get another lower and have two rifles!

thats good to hear about the 6.5 from both of you guys. And i see you are both in WY so I trust you might know something about hunting this part of the country. I was almost afraid to ask about the 6.5 and have people tell me no way, go 300 win mag. I know the 6.5 is kind of all the rage and i didnt want to have anyone think i was under the impression it is some kind of "magic" perfect round.

The 30-06 was military and one of the most popular hunting rounds for a long time. But selection of it has dwindled on the shelves compared to other rounds. Now 308 is still going strong but it has not been the "issued" round for a while. Although i know it is still in use a lot. The future military round will be 6.5. Not Creedmoor but Fury. Maybe that will be the "go to" for the next 50 years once it grows in the civilian market. It will probably be a great hunting round in the future.

I took an elk 3 years ago with a 6.5 Creed and another last year with a .308.  
Both suppressed with Silencerco Omega 300's.  At 400 yards there is no difference.

ETA
I absolutely love the 6.5 Creedmoor (prob my forever large animal round) and it will out perform the .308 at distances.

Seems like you're overthinking it to me. At normal hunting ranges which is 100-300 yards for most people I don't think either round you mentioned will have problems. Seems to me most cernterfire stuff with a good bullet will do the job you need to do. Magnums are certainly proven and when you need to kill giant things they are a great choice. Of the two listed I'd probably just go 6.5 Creedmoor.



Do you mean the 6.8 or are saying there us a 6.5 Fury?

My mistake. You are correct on the 6.8. That is what ment but i probably should not get too side tracked in that discussion.

I hope I don't muddy the waters, but here goes...

There was a time when all bullets were relatively the same, with little differences in performance.  The commonly available jacketed soft point from Rem (Corlokt) and Win (PowerPoint) got stuffed in everything.  If you wanted a performance increase, your only option was to change cartridges.  If the 308 didn't cut it, you moved up to 30-06.  If that wasn't enough, you bought a 300 Win Mag... Basically, all performance increases came from increasing muzzle speeds.

Bullets have been developed so thoroughly today, and are available for specialized applications, so there really is less "need" to change cartridges....  You can simply use a different bullet....  The availability of some really very good bullets has taken mild cartridges like 308 win and 6.5 CM and made they far more effective than they once were.

Realistically speaking, I dont think you will see any massive differences.  You aren't asking us to help you choose between 6.5 Creed and .300 Win Mag.  308W and 6.5 CM are very very similar.   Up close, at 30 and 50 yards, there are some advantages to the 308....   However, once you are out at ranges of 200+, these are very similar.  

You do have a few things to think about, ESPECIALLY at ranges of 300 and 400 yards....

1) Barrel lengths.  Its easy to scan load data and factory velocity specs.  Look at the fine print.  Those specs are almost always published with 24, 26" barrels.  Expect actual velocities at the muzzle that will be 100, 125 feet per second slower if your rifle will be using a 20" barrel.  Going shorter?  take another 50 off....  This has huge impact on performance at 400 yards...  Pay really close attention to this when you are running data....  You didn't mention barrel length, but talk about muzzle threading implies a can, and most people with cans dont run 26" barrels.  I'm running a Tikka T3X CTR in 20 inches and my 6.5 CM 143x's are running 2588....  Its laser accurate, but it isn't real fast....

Side bar:  I would not consider a barrel shorter than 20".  Yes.  Its handy with a suppressor.  Velocity losses are so great that it makes longer distance hunting less viable.  the Tikkas's come with something like a 22.3" barrel.  Less than wonderful for handling with a can, but the extra 50 fps at 400 yards can be helpful as we will see....

2) Consider skill.  Lots and lots of arm chair commandos dream of killing critters at long ranges.  I shoot more than 95% of the public, but 400 yards is still a long way off.  And while I can and do place bullets into targets with fair accuracy at those ranges, hunting and bench shooting are two different things. 400 yards is a long way.  I could say more, but will shut my mouth and move on...

3) Absolutely positively consider the designed "operating window" of the bullet you will be using and the expected impact distance and its effect on your velocity.   While I can but bullets on target, how they operate at those 400 yard distances has a huge influence on the terminal performance.

My 308 W is a 20" carbine.  I drive Hornady 165 BTSP to about 2650.  Its slow, but Ive got a velocity loss because of the short barrel.  When I get to 400 yards, even if I hit the target, my impact speeds are on the order of about 1850 fps.  That is NOT fast.  Actually, its slow enough that most bullets won't reliably expand and perform with good results, even though I made the shot.  

Side Bar:  I once used to hunt moose with a 350 Rem Mag, out of 20"carbine using 225 Nosler Partitions at about 2700 fps.  Its a cannon, and capable of flattening critters with authority.  I had an absolute hard "no shoot" limit of 300 yards.  At that distance, those Partitions dropped in speed to about 2000 fps.  And Nosler had a recommendation of a minimum impact speed of 1900 fps (I like a margin of error).  I shot a cow moose at 292 yards.  It did kill her, but the much vaunted Nosler Partitions and that big .358" cannon didn't hit with the authority you might expect.  I got 100% through and through penetration, punching both shoulders.  The field dressing autopsy showed mild and very modest expansion, but performance was dramatically reduced compared to the sorts of "Hammer of Thor" results I got at 75 yards....  I got my job done, but impact speeds were so low, the bullet performance was very limited.  Had I shot at 350-375 yards, I suspect performance would have been miserable.  When impact speeds get down to 1900 fps, bullets often dont dramatically expand like thy do at 2500 fps.  They often just sort of flatten a bit, looking like a rivet.  And they do not cause the dramatic wounding we expect.  Think about it:  My 308W might fire a bullet at 2650.  However, at 300, 400 yards when speeds have dropped considerably, its basically now running 1800 fps and acting a lot like the lowly 30-30 Win at 150 yards, only the bullet isn't designed for 30-30 and doesn't have a tip with a half acre of exposed lead and a soft thin skived jacket designed to expand at those slow speeds....

There are two ways to deal with this:  1) Softer bullets. and 2) better ballistic coefficients

The 6.5CM is very very similar to the 308 w.  I'd argue its easier to shoot at distance, as recoil is lower, and practice more comfortable.  The big advantage is the long skinny aerodynamic bullets... There are REALLY good, high BC bullets in 6.5mm.  While there are also good .30 cal bullets, the 308 W cant take good advantage of many of them (many are intended more for Mag cartridges). In similar rifles, with similar muzzle velocity, a 140 or 143 out of the CM will hit 100, 150, 200 feet per second faster than a similar 308W at long ranges.  That increased impact speeds helps bullet expansion and penetration...  Hihger BC, and higher Impact speeds.  Two point to the CM.

When that bullet ends up hitting your elk at 1900 fps out there across that alpine meadow, the 6.5 will also have better sectional density.  Nosler's 140 AB in 6.5 has a sectional density of .287.  Hornady's ELDx 143 is more like .290.     Compare to Nosler's 165 AB at .248.      Yes, you CAN get higher SD .308 bullets by moving to a 180, but a shorter 308W simply will NOT drive a 180 fast enough to reasonably compete.  Long story short, the Creedmoor not only retains speed better at 300, 400 yards, its going to drive deeper when it gets there, all else being similar...  Another point to the 6.5 CM.

If you were looking for a 100 yard elk gun, I'd go .308 Win.  A 300 yard elk gun?  MY nod goes to 6.5 Creedmoor.  You simply can find better long range bullets in 6.5 Creed than you can find in 308 W.  You'll need to do your homework.  Bullet selection is going to be important.  If you simply think "Barnes TTSX are nice and premium, I'll use those..." you will be in for disappointment.  You'll be using a cartridge and bullet combo that NEEDS SPEED, and this combo does not have it...   I'd look for a bullet that is relatively soft, and opens well at lower speeds.  Nosler's AccuBond LR is specifically designed for this, and an obvious choice.  Regular Acccubond, and Hornady's Interbond or ELDx are obvious choices too.  With anticipated shots of 300, 400 yards, Impact speeds will be low and you will need a soft, easy opening bullet....

Final note:  You will be able to hit targets at longer than 400 yards.  But remember, your combination isn't a 26" barreled 300 mag.  Your initial impact speeds are likely limited to about 2700, maybe 2800 fps.  And from the second the bullet leaves the barrel until it hits the target, its shedding speed.  Shots on a coyote at 550 yards probably wont matter much, but if you are shooting BIG deer and elk at longer ranges, high BC bullets can only do so much.  You are very likely going to start encountering bullet failures (failure to expand well, failure to penetrate well, failure to drop your game animal reliably) fairly soon after your 400 yard limit.  I'm sure someone has stories about their 900 yard kill on a Godzilla elk with a 6.5 Grendel.  I'm happy for them.  However, physics is physics, and I strongly suspect that this combo (shorter, 6.5 CM, or .308W) is likely effective to about 400 yards, and not a whole lot further.....  I'd seriously pass on that trophy elk at 525 yards, even if he was a trophy.  I'm fairly sure the combo doesn't have the horsepower to get it done cleanly.....

My two cents.....

Fro

Very good post

Thank you for all the good info. I have considered a lot of that but it is nice to see it all spelled out for me. To answer a few things you bring up. I would say barrel leanght will be 20-22" with carful consideration given to velocity. I am familure with the concepts of bullet construction and expansion in regard to velocities but not an expert at all. Years ago was working on deceloping a load for 357 maximum. I had a lot of difficulty finding good bullets. 357 mag bullets were not deaigned to run 2000 fps. Most bullets for 35 rem were designed to be pushed faster. So i had to do a lot of reaserch. So the concept you discuss is familyre to me but i will need to do my homework.

I have shot at ranges for a long time but only started hunting several years ago. I 100% agree shooting in the field is nothing like shooting at a range. I am lucky enough to have good ranges and a lot of public land to shoot on. That means that once zeroed and dope figured i can go out and shoot off sticks or prone off a back pack. Not saying i am good at it but i would rather shoot from "improvised" positions that a cement table. Just more fun.

Surprisingly one of the most educational experiances for me has been shooting gophers with 22lr. A lot of walking carrying the rifle, scanning with binoculars, then shooting off sticks or a backpack laying in the dirt. Also because of balistics and the small target ranging and holds are tricky. The differnt point of impact at 100yrd vs 140 yards on a 4" target is crtical. Luckaly for me you can often correct and get a second shot since we are supressed. But mostly it tought me how hard it is to shoot, range and holdover in the field compaired to off a bench. So i have a healthy respect for that.

The one you’ll shoot more. Which is likely the CM.

I would say 6.5.
Seems to do what it does well.

Sense getting my 6.5 i dont use the 30/06 much.

Since you are starting this conversation with the talk of hunting elk as a primary goal, I would say pick better cartridges. To me they are both on the light side for stated purpose of elk. Not that you could not pull it off with either. People hunt with those everyday. I think 30 cal is overkill and 30 is a dinosaur. You got to jump up to 220 grain to get the aerodynamic efficiency of a 6.5 bullet and that is just overkill. I'd look at a 6.5 prc, 7 prc or the 280 ackley. Even 7 rmag and 30-06 would be better options imho. I went with ackley and I based my loads around the 162gr eld X. As far as paper punching, I can shoot the ackley all day vs the 30-06 or 308 gonna get a little sore after 30 rounds and shooting a 300 wm all day would suck.

I do agree with the other comment that bullet technology have improved vastly over the past 2 decades. I think the 6.5 and 308 are pretty damn equal. Both deliver about the same energy out to about 800 yards. As stated, 308 is a little better up close and 6.5 flies better out past 400 give or take.

Only have one data point personally, but 1 shot with a 30-06 put a bull elk DRT.

My “kill everything” gun recommendation is 7mm STW.

It’s got some drawbacks - it kicks like an angry mule and ammo is expensive and difficult to find.

For anything mule deer or smaller, though, I like 6.5CM, but .308 will kill stuff just as dead.  For most hunting applications the difference is minimal.

6.5CM windage/trajectory is superior at all ranges.

However .308 terminal performance is superior typically inside of 400-500 yards.  And as it turns out the windage/trajectory difference is fairly minimal in those rages too, so unless your trying to make very precise shots (like varminting) the .308 is a better choice for intermediate range hunting.

And to be honest if I’m planning on 500+ yard shots on medium or larger game, I’m probably going to select a 6.5PRC/300PRC/300WM anyways.

as an east-coaster with east coast sized deer (forgive the dumb question), if everything is inside 400Y, won't 6.5G do the job?  It's still got plenty of energy at that distance.

His Grendel absolutely will get the job done but then he wouldn’t have an excuse to get a new rifle. My choice would be 6.5 creedmoor. I have killed both a cow and a bull with the creedmoor and neither traveled more than 20 yards.

In typical AR15.COM style i got both. I kept the Grendel for now. I made a case for it and took it with me on my last flight to Georgia. I will leave it down at my siaters house and keep it for hunting the southeast. I think it really is a perfect caliber for small whitetail and hogs. Semi auto gives me fast follow up shots and the 16" barrel is short compaired to a something like a "normal sized" hunting bolt gun. Overall length  is important in the thick brush of the southeast.

Just yesterday i picked up a Tikka T3x Vail in 6.5 Creedmoor. I havent shot it but really like it so far. It is by far the longest barrel i have ever owned. But here in Montana i have a higher chance of needing to shoot at longer range and a lot of the country is more open. So maybe it wont bother me. I dont trust my shooting skill to shoot longer distances unsuported. Even if i just use shooting sticks, a fallen tree or a boulder as a rest i would beed something. So i am hoping that the long barrel with a lightweight can will be tolerable using a rest. We will see.

But overall the Tikka Veil in 6.5 Creedmoor with its medium contour fluted barrel, Nomad Ti and Leupold VX5HD CDS Firedot 2-10X42 should be a super versatile hunting rig. Really excited about this one.

Nice rifle.  if you can, buy or borrow a Chronograph if you're going to shoot Hornady ammo.

In my admittedly limited experience, Hornady makes some scary accurate ammo.  However, the games they play with their advertised velocities vs actual velocities in 6.5 Creedmoor verges on unethical and a deceptive business practice.  Every make wants their ammo to look the fastest.  I get it.  Velocity sells.  So, the usually advertise velocities out of 24 or 26inch barrels, even though most hunters use 22"....

Hornady's Precision Hunter 143 eldx load supposedly runs 2700 out of a 24".  Nope.  not even remotely close.  Measured over three different chronos, I seem different lots of this ammo run an average of about 2460, 2480 out of a Tikka T3x 20" compact tactical rifle.

I never expect velocity to remain the same when comparing 24" and 20" barrels.  There is an expected speed drop.  However, 240 fps if HUGE.  I haven't got a 24" 6.5 to test, but Ive got a strong suspicion Hornady is just flat out lying about their MV.

Make sure you actually chronograph the load, and not use box info, if you are going to have the CDS dials cut for that VX5 scope.  it makes a difference, especially when the box speed and the actual speed are off by 240 fps....

For what it’s worth Tikka CTR barrels are known to be universally slow barrels.

Right now i only have one range trip on the rifle to zero it. I only shot the cheapest AAC 140gr. I was kind of shocked. Three groups, only three shot shots each. But worst group was 0.8". 2nd group was .5 and third group was .3". Yes these are only 3 shot groups but the potential is there and i couldnt belive such cheap ammo could get below 1 MOA so easily.

But i have a chrono and will chrono my "practice ammo. Then when i pick a hunting ammo i will zero and chrono. Check dope and calculate drop for CDS. Or atleast that is my long term plan.

If you shoot lower recoil cartridges better, go with what you shoot better.  After all, actually hitting what you shoot at is the entire goal.  If you can't hit it, it doesn't matter if you use a super magnum cartridge.

You can’t fix stupid.

.308 all day.

Not impressed by the 6.5 ManBuns. New hotness ain’t necessarily better hotness.

308 has the same problem as 30-06. Bigger than necessary for deer, small for elk and moose.

Spend $$$ on quality ammo and bonded bullet. I didn’t listen and got lucky on my Elk shooting 7mm. I found big chunks of the bullet jacket in the hide and didn’t get a through and through.  I should have used better ammo.

Always question advice from someone who makes up silly names for things they don’t understand to ameliorate their own self-doubt,

Defo.

"It doesn't work for my needs; therefore it won't work for yours."

Both rounds are great... for certain tasks.

To address the quote, i think it is like a lot of "new" things. It gets over hyped then gets a bad reputation. But looking at it objectivy it is a fantasic cartridge if it covers your needs. If you need a 300 win mag then no creedmoor wont be any good for you. But it is almost identical to a .260 which is a fantasitc round. If .260 was as available as the Creedmoor then i would have considered it but its not.  No one disputes how good a 130gr 270 kills. The 6 5 Creedmoor in a 130gr is withing 50-100fps of the 270 with factory ammo. I have not extensivle reaserched this. Just glanced at a few factory 130gr loads for both. But they are really close. I am sure handloads are all different.

All that being said. I would still rather shoot a elk with a 300 win mag. But i had to be realistic about what round i would actually want to shoot and become proficient with.

After shooting my 6.5 Tikka with my Nomade Ti on it all i can say is that it is amazing. 6.5 Creedmoor in a supressed bolt gun shoots nicer than a unsupressed 16" 5.56 AR. Still a little more recoil but smoother, quiter, no port noise. Just a pure pleasure to shoot. I would wager that a heavy barrel supressed 6.5 would be better to teach a kid on than a 5.56 AR. Now as long as it does its job on animals from a terminal balistic point of view i will be happy. But that is yet to be seen.

PS. I have to admit that the recoil on the supressed 6.5 is so mild that i might have been perfectly fine with 308. Maybe i will just need both

It’s been around for 15 years. People bitching about it being “new” makes me roll my eyes.

I will throw a curve ball into the mix...

I love the 6.5 Grendel and I want to get a bigger rifle - I am thinking the 6.5 PRC - to me you are getting the performance level of a 30-06 with lighter bullets and less recoil.

And it looks like you reload - so it would be economical to run.

Red

I need to kill something with my grendel. I’d love to see how it performs. Sadly, I haven’t had the opportunity to do a big doe cull or anything in a few years.

Killing a few dozen deer (or more) in a short time with the same rifle gives great insight into its performance.

I have used all of the rounds in question to take whitetail deer without issue. The first gun I ever had that was bought/built solely for the purpose of hunting was a aero m5 with a 16'' barrel in 308, I killed a pile of deer with it and it performed excellent however it struggled in the wind and at extended distances on the range, granted the range time was just for fun and this was much past where I would ever shoot hunting so it didn't bother me too much. I built a 12.5'' SBR Grendel to have something super maneuverable, 120 grain federal fusions are hell on deer inside 250 yards out of that little rifle unfortunately I can't find them anymore and I am down to my last box so my plan is to get a thermal and turn the Grendel into my night hunting rifle.

A couple of years ago I got a sig cross in 6.5 cm and it made me a fan of the cartridge, it is super accurate, does better in the wind and at the range and it has still hammered deer so I ended up building another ar10 in creedmoor to go with it. At this point ammo price and availability are even between the 308 and 6.5 cm, sub 500 performance on game is a negligible difference and the creedmoor handles the wind better if you decide to stretch it out, even if its just for fun at the range.

I’ve never taken a deer, but I’ve killed a lot of them.

ok, killed.

This

Since we went GD quality in thisthread all of a sudden, i agree!  Which is why won't touch .308

When I shoot .30 cal, I shoot proper 30-06 .30 cal.  



Every deer I have taken has been with that rifle.  Well, except my last one, where I skipped the transition technology .308 round and went right to using modern technology decades proven and common 6.5 Creedmoor.