Great stuff yet again. I agree. 2200 calories sounds more reasonable. My experience related to "grazing" versus stopping for lunch matches yours. My first AT section hike I was stopping and making lunch in the middle of the day. This caused a few problems. First, you're stopping for 45 minutes instead of walking so you lose some valuable daylight. Second, when you sit for that long you stiffen up a lot, so it's harder to get back on pace. Third, when you fill your belly all of your blood goes there for an hour or so to digest your mean, so you seriously drag ass for a while after lunch. Last, you need to down about a quart of water after  you eat like that. Snacking all day is a much better plan.

Testing your Shit:
So...yesterday I took my lightweight AR out to function check it after I made some changes. About 20 rounds in the rear sight smacked me in the face. It seems the shockwave blade, which attaches to the buffer tube with a set screw, dug its way loose from the buffer tube and collapsed under recoil. I'd used a non-detented buffer tube, so there was no hole for the set screw to live in. It seemed pretty solid when I put it together, and I'd already run a few hundred rounds through it. Point is, you never know how things are going to work until you try them. Trying things out is a very important part of this process.

Think you can make it 250 miles on a bicycle? Get one and try it?
Think your pack will work for a 250 mile hike? Put it on and go for a walk around the neighborhood...fix the problems you find and then go for an over night trip somewhere. You're going to learn some stuff.
Think your proposed diet is going to work? Get some extra and eat what you planned for a few days.

This is a super important part of planning for an event of this magnitude. Trial and error is your friend, and learning about errors before you're absolutely committed to an event is vital to success. Nobody who ever successfully hiked the AT for weeks at a time just thew some stuff together and set out.

Pack maintenance:
Stuff doesn't last forever. When I started this thread I pulled out my go pack and found that the flints in the bic lighters had turned to powder and the lighters were useless. Water filters and camp stoves have rubber gaskets in them. These go bad after a few years. (Watching pressurized fuel shoot out of an unexpected place while you're trying to get a stove going is a super exciting experience, guess how I know?)
Food expires, containers get punctured, the rubber in the elastic in your underwear...it eventually breaks down. Rubber is a major source of trouble long term. Anything rubber needs to be replaced every few years. Everything in the pack needs to be inspected and repaired regularly.

The more I do this, the more I think it's better to store the contents of the pack in a bin rather than stuffed in the pack, and pack-the-pack when the time comes. This makes it much easier to go through things and it keeps things from being jammed together, slammed around and breaking, leaking or losing their integrity. If you puncture the bag on a freeze dried food, it's not going to be good for very long. If your camp soap container or fuel bottle leaks all over the inside of your pack, it's gonna suck to be you. Just sayin. :)

Go on....

This thread makes me want a folding bike for my trunk.

It's not a bad idea. :)

Electric bike or super simple 50cc scooter,  like a honda ruckus.
Or one of those smaller motors you coukd attach to a bike.
Even if you only made it 100 miles before gas/parts failure, you cut hump time in half.

Walmart is clearancing out Mountainhouse for $7, which is not a huge savings. I have asked the sporting goods manager if they would sell them $5 if I cleaned them out. They've been saying yes. For $5, I'll stock up.

So, this is part of the "bugout triage" plan I have.  My current situation is I've been working away from home; over 500 miles. I rent a room with very little storage place, so anything outside of bugging in for a week, I would just "take some leave" and head home...my biggest challenge is intel and making that decision to bug out as early as possible considering traffic patters in the immediate area.  This applies to the OPs scenario as my last option is bugging home on foot.  First, is I keep the truck topped off, well maintained (just replaced tires and brakes), a couple of gas cans and I have some stocks of food (mostly canned soups, tuna, tins of salmon, tortillas, etc.) and a couple weeks worth of backpacking freeze dried meals and trail foods) that are immediately portable.

Second option is the mountain bike.  My primary plans with a few alternate routes gets me about halfway to three quarters the way home with the truck in a worse-case scenario of not being able to get fuel, but able to get passed the worst of the traffic and away from the more congested routes. While I've carried the folding bike in my truck, it's often in my room (just recently cleaned it up, tightened and lubed after a muddy ride) which forces me to bug to the rented place first, upload, and then pop smoke.  This is a security (secure area I work) and logistics constraint, but all my initial routes pretty much having heading in this direction to start.  I do have a cheap bike trailer, so my last option is going on foot with the pack.

I have a a few Montague folding mountain bikes, the one I'm using right now is their Paratrooper Pro.  I have a real nice riding trail and bike course nearby, and it'd done just fine.  I've heard most folding bikes will screw up your cables, but that hasn't been the case on any of the three Montague bikes I own.

I'm upgrading my current trailer which is some cheap brand flatbed utility trailer I picked up used.  It works okay, but not really a "trail" trailer and it rattles like rattle trap, but allowed me to figure out how towing weight affected my peddling.  I was able to get the REI guys to try out the Burlley Coho XC trailer on my bike as I wasn't sure about the fitting; worked like a charm and this is going to be my upgrade and it's a pretty serious trail trailer.  It will haul up to 70 pounds, but at 50 pounds I didn't find it too bad maneuvering (in a parking lot area)  I did some calculations, but my backpack can be loaded up to 43 pounds (including 12 days of food, 2.5 liters of initial water, and fuel for cooking), I can add a more robust water filter, 10-15 additional days of food (weight problem is the canned foods right now), and some additional bike repair parts/tools, and a little extra ammo.

Doing route planning puts me mostly on a series backroads which slows and lengthens the travel times some, but would be far more feasible with a bike and trailer.  Depending on how far I could get in the truck, the mountain bike with towed trailer would slow me some and even with several breaks and a 5-7 mph pace (which is pretty slow), I could average 50-60 miles day.  That part of the triage plan would be used to get me home or within my magical 100-150 range for on foot completion.

Make no mistake, a bike is vastly more efficient and fast than on foot travel if you can avoid seriously restrictive terrain.  The challenge is finding a way to carry your essentials where you can jettison the bike and go on foot in needed and a bike trailer was the best option for me after doing several panier calculations (and the trailer is multipurpose as well).

I did consider an electric bike, even getting a motorcycle, but there were more cons than pros for my situation and with electric bikes, hauling a load decreased range quite a bit and if you got a more robust system), they were pretty heavy "bikes" once the batteries ran dry.  If I was within a 100 miles from work, I would seriously consider an electric bike as back up to the truck.

ROCK6

It's two different mental models. I'm thinking 3 day adventure race (carbs, protein, electrolytes) and you're thinking month-long Appalachian Trail hike. I've not tried it over several days, but I have done 10-15 mile obstacle races fueling myself with Honey Stinger cookies and Scratch Labs drink powder. Worked really well, and kept me from bonking.
People that do multi-day adventure races essentially eat a bunch of junk food. It's 100% not sustainable, and you'll crash at the end, but it works well for racing.

Like everything else, just having lockpicks doesn't mean anything. Skills are most important.

It doesn't have to be an office. It could be a storage shed, utility building, warehouse, any non-residential building. Pick someplace low-traffic. The reason I specified non-destructive entry is that you can lock doors behind you. That provides extra security, stealth, and nobody will come looking for you like they would if you'd broken a window to get in. Nothing should be disturbed or missing inside that would cue someone to an intruder. If Suzy and Andy somehow finds me sleeping in a mountain of tp the back janitors closet... well, I still have a gun.

So, I'm the "screw up your cables" guy.

I give you a little background on my bike experience and explain a bit more in detail.

My first job at 12 was a bike mechanic. I stayed with it all through college, took about a 7 year hiatus, and started up again when I married the AF. It seems to be a profession/hobby that one can work in pretty much anywhere. I've worked on everything from Wally World bikes to 25k bikes that are too light to meet spec for the Tour De France. At one point I was asked to be a mechanic for the Sierra Nevada semi pro team.

Montague makes the second best folding bike that I am aware of. The best is from a company called Ritchey and it's the Breakaway.

Most cable housing has plastic coated over a springy metal cylinder. When the plastic hardens over time it becomes brittle. This is not as much of an issue on a standard bike because the housing isn't "folded" in a direction counter to how it hardens. It is an issue with a folding bike. In Rock6s benefit is the fact that the Paratrooper is a higher quality bike with better housing. The summer heat in a vehicle will speed the process.

In the 20ish years I worked on bikes the most common repair I did to folders was replace cables and housing.

The Burley trailer is quite nice. We have a Bob, which I think pioneered the single wheel design. I was going to suggest looking at Bob, but they don't make a suspended version anymore. Without suspension those trailers that attach at the rear dropout will shake your teeth out.

We've had a deer in ours so I'm assuming the 70lb capacity is just a CYA. It was a hell of a 4 mile hump though. Dressed I'm assuming it was in the 120lb range.

Attached File

If that g81 is a saw back.....we might be related lmao.

How is thier in house sole holding up for you?

G78.  Those Chacos are only a couple years old with not to many miles on them.  So far so good but I am still warming up to them for more than just occasional wear.  I think I will try to put some miles on them this spring.

Honda Ruckus can haul a lot of gear.  My wife and I often take them on overnight camping trips.  Top speed is right around 40mph & 100mpg.

Attached File


Attached File

I have several very similar setups that I keep at the homestead, and often bring with me when hunting etc.  I think for a get home situation or even bug out situation I would lean towards a multi band receiver with long run time on traditional batteries.

This is my go to for multi day GHB/BOB:

https://countycomm.com/collections/radio/products/countycomm-gp-5-ssb-general-purpose-radio

Attached File


If vehicle based I have a much more comprehensive "comm kit,"  but once I go on foot with a desitation in mind its going to be a light weight multi purpose receiver or even a small AM+FM+WX radio.

All of this light weight talk really has me thinking that its time to put my GHB/BOB back together.

My last few GHB setups revolved around a Kelty Redwing 50, or a smaller 3 day style Molle pack.  I am now thinking I want to go with something a little more streamlined, simplistic, and lighter.

HPG original kit bag is my go to for first line EDC.  I use it often and it sleeps by my night stand.

Foot bed gets a little cushier after some steady use.
Prolly be the last sandals i buy, since its its cheaper to have the repaired by chaco than to get new ones.

I always have radios in my vehicle, at work, at home, on my person.  I guess if it got to the point of no vehicles and walking home, I am not going to have much to say to anyone, and most likely anything frying every vehicle is also going take out any radio tower systems/ repeaters etc...  Not much point in a 5W HT other than semi local comms without repeaters.

I work in emergency communications and its my opinion, at least in my AO that radio towers will go down before vehicles do, and if I have a vehicle, I have a radio with TX.  If I am going from work to home, I will have a radio that can TX.  I just don't store one in my longer range GHB/BOB.  My daily work to home GHB is more minimalistic and focuses on realistic situations vs planning on hiking home.  That one has a radio.  Harris XL200 to be exact!

ETA/ My wife has her tech, and I have my general class so we can use our local repeater system, which covers roughly 50~100 square miles depending on your exact location.  I used to be more involved in my local amateur radio community but living and breathing emergency comm 8 hours a day changes your hobbies a bit.  I still enjoy it and hob on every now and again just not to gab for the purpose of gabbing...  I haven't jumped on an arfcom net in about 6~7 years!

If they soften up a bit that would make them more comfortable for me.  I think my biggest complaint was getting a bit of dust or dirt between my foot and the sole and it rubbing my foot weird causing me to stop and clean my feet and sandal off to resume a level of comfort.  I am going to give them a good go once our snow melts and put some miles on them because I am sick of cheap sandals wearing out or breaking once I start to like them.

Did a 4 mile run when I woke up this morning, then when I got back the wife wanted to take the dogs on a walk, so I threw on a pack and did another 4.  I only had about 40lbs and was completely fine, but I do need to get my wife hiking with a pack more. She goes to the gym a lot but never hikes and she was sore after the 4 miles with around 20lbs.

The fact remains that no matter what I do I'm only as  fast as she is.

Strong work. Thanks for the report. Gotta get mine on the road soon.

This was my thinking as well.  Not that I don't value communications, but TX is likely going to be impossible or extremely challenging if repeaters are down or are shutdown.  Comms still have value, but for a situation like this, I would rather cache them and return to pick them up later vice hauling "useless" weight".  Now, I did forget a receiver, and I really like that County Comm GP-5 radio.  Something like that may still be less effective if broadcasting stations/individuals are affected by EMP, but they will at least receive outside most affected zones and information in a situation like this (or less) can be invaluable.  For more urban areas (not so much for a massive EMP scenario), police/emergency scanners can be of significant value for intel gathering also.

"Walking" with a backpack is about the only way to condition your body to hiking with a pack. Being conditioned just helps your body adjust and recover faster if it's a multiday trek.  My wife and I backpack regularly, but she's similar in her preparation as it's mostly high-impact workouts (although she's increasing her weight-exercises).  Backpacking isn't necessarily just walking and it just takes time for your body to adjust...this is why we always start with shorter legs the first few days.  Your wife would adapt pretty quickly if it was a multiday hike given her conditioning level.  However, it's eye-opening that despite your conditioning level, your body hurts just from "walking"

Fortunately, we pace together really well.  She does prefer more breaks than I do, but we adjust and maintain a pretty decent pace.  I do let her keep the pace and plan the distances and if we hit our planned destination early and feeling good, we just tank up on water and I let her find a new campsite if she wants to continue on for a few more miles.

ROCK6

Maybe start a Chacos thread???

Excellent points Rock6.
One of the things I learned very early was not to be a slave to your schedule. If you're tired and your still 5 miles from where you thought you were going to stop...stop.
If you're at your scheduled stop and you're feeling good and you still have 4 hours of daylight, find a new end point and keep going.

It's way better to listen to your body than to over do it and injure yourself or waste a half a day when you don't have to.

So...a like minded buddy of mine and I have decided to walk a bit of the route with our packs over spring break in a few weeks. Staring the actual event in the face has already changed a few decisions for me. I'm ditching the woobie for an actual sleeping bag. It still gets pretty cold here this time of year ( I had to scrape ice off my windshield last Friday morning) as it would in November, and I don't want to freeze my ass off.

I'm also probably going to upgrade the pack. The Kelty isn't going to be big enough. I'm carrying 9 days worth of mountain house in keeping with the challenge. That's not a lot of weight, but it does take up a good bit of room. I'm upgrading to a Gregory internal frame pack similar to the one most folks carry on trail hikes. It's a bit heavier and a bit bigger, but it has a better suspension system and carries weight better.

I'm also starting to think a slung rifle in this situation might not be the best option.  I have a 22 suppressor and an M&P .22 compact that are pretty quiet. That might be more useful overall, in addition to the Glock, of course.

Funny how things start to change when you're actually going to try something. :)

Just three days. Not quite the whole challenge, but we're figuring it will be a good shake down cruise. :)

Thanks brother...I've now filled in a gap I currently have where I'm located  From all the reviews, it seems like a pretty capable unit and good source for "intel" if forced on foot.

Fully agree.  Ironically the day before I did 22 miles on the section with the most elevation change, my Achilles-tendon flared up from something, not sure what, but it was really painful for a few miles and I didn't feel I had the full motion of my foot.  I was worried I may have to cut my trip short.  I had already added a few miles the previous two days, so I still made my original planned stop, but didn't do as many miles that day as I wanted to.  I did a little foot maintenance, stretched it out, rubbed down, etc.  I was fine the next morning and figured I would go until it hurt and make the call...fortunately zero issues, and I ended up doing my record best daily mileage that next day.  Not sure how that would have turned out if I continued to push past that pain, but I felt it was the right call to stop earlier that day and just give that tendon a break.  Listen to your body and don't push passed an injury unless you have someone shooting at you!  Also, if you plan 10 miles a day, consider stops a mile or two prior and a mile or three after.  It's okay to stick to a schedule, but you'll find value in being flexible if your body, the weather, and the time are working for you...

These are valuable tests and gut-checks to just shake out your kit and gauge your level of fitness and capability.  It's definitely worth the effort.  I'm going to try something shorter later this spring/summer with my larger pack.  I want to see how well my AR pistol carries inside the pack if I need to be more discreet.  SHTF will always be on a spectrum where the initial event will still have some semblance of normalcy; openly carrying will attract the wrong kind of attention.  After day three or four of a "Going Home" scenario, I suspect open carry will be a needed deterrent if you can't simply avoid all contact.  Having the initial ability to be concealed makes training easier, but I also think it's more relevant to most disaster scenarios for the first few days...

Make sure to follow up with an AAR, they're as valuable for us as they are for you

ROCK6

Your welcome!  Glad I could help.  I often find threads like this flush out something I need to re-up or re-think.  One tip on that unit is keep the book with it.  I am pretty tech and radio "savy" and every time I play with it I end up needing the book to easily use it.  It has some fast scan auto add to memory bank feature that would be a life saver when on the move, but then you need to remember how to reset it to start again.  SSB capability is what sold me on it being my on the move light weight go to unit.  there are a lot of ham radio folks who prep and being able to hear what they are saying could really provide some good intel on the situation at hand.  I have played with "QRP" or low power tx HF units and unless you do the QRP thing often and really know your stuff there is no point in trying to make a QRP HF contact during the situation we are contemplating.  JMHO and I do the radio thing for a living.  I think realistic expectations are key, just like a lot of us (me included) getting a reality check every time I read a thread like this and realizing I was lazy most of the winter and haven't covered more than a couple miles in any given week since this past November!

Awesome!

Not really into the Video Blod thing, but I will certainly keep the thread up to date.
I took Rock6's soap idea and stepped it up a notch.



These are 5ml dropper bottles I got off amazon. That's enough bleach to disinfect 5 gallons of water, and enough tooth paste for the trip, I think. Still running through one at home to see how long it will last.

I filled the soap container with "super concentrated camp soap with Citronella" and that didn't work well.
It took a half a bottle to shower once and the stuff made my nose run all day.
Trying some different soap now.

The breakfree CLP has obvious uses. Not sure about the deet. It certainly weighs less than the wipes I started with, but I'm not sure about the amount ...or the proximity to the tooth paste. :) I may end up with a separate bottle of 100% deet.

Still thinking on the guns. I've gone back and forth on the rifle a few times. With ammo the AR is a lot of weight (super light AR pistol and two mags comes up to six pounds). I think the best plan would be to put it in the pack going through populated areas and slinging it in the wilderness.
Today I'm leaning toward leaving it and switching from the iron sighed Glock 19 to a Glock 17 with RMR. This would give me more range due to the sight and less weight than carrying an AR and ammo. Could I duke it out with three guys with AR's with a Glock? Nope. Could I with an AR? Dunno? Would the Glock get me enough heads down time to get gone? Dunno?

Switched from the Garmin 64 to a much lighter Foretrex, which takes the same (also lighter) AAA batteries the head lamp does.

Here's the pile for this week...

Treat your clothing with permethrin,  sawyer sells it,off etc
It'll last 14-30 days depending on the manufacturer.

Find those pen sized spray bottle hand sanitizer comes in.
Transfer deet/ permethrin to those to apply as needed on route.

Good call...thanks
Deet pen

...and I found this...
Permethrin kit

Probably not worth carrying the kit, like Morgan did, but you could pre-treat your clothes. Says it's good for the life of the clothing.

The hive mind is an awesome thing. :)

Most of us replying to you have a lot of time under a pack,  more so than the author I'd wager
With that comes years of learned knowledge from fucking up a few times lol
I started getting the deet and picadirn with spf 30 pen sprayers from walmart few years ago.

I still really recommend Dr. Bronner's concentrated soap.  I use a silk bandana and a little goes a long ways.  Still, you've got a good idea.  Check for any expiration dates and mark the bottles for rotation (usually for chemical water purification).

As to bug dope, I treat my backpack clothing with Permethrin every spring, about April or May, and it lasts all summer.  Most Permethrin treatments will last six months with a half-dozen washings thrown in.  I've switched to Picaridin over DEET.  DEET is very effective, but is corrosive to cool, plastic shit...just know how it affects stuff it might come in contact with.

So, I've been screwing around trying to figure out how to have a battle belt at hand, but not worn because I'm wearing a pack.  I would typically carry my handgun in a chest mounted HPG Kit Bag, but I'm also trying a Safariland holster QLS (quick locking system) which I predominantly use for my training kit.  Ignore the small size as I'm just working with a G43 CCW, but I have the mid-ride attachment on my battle belt and a MOLLE attachment on my pack's (Seek Outside) hip belt.





I have a spare Velcro liner I wrapped around the bottom half of my pack and attached the battle belt with a couple of quick detach retainers.  Surprisingly it's not uncomfortable at all.  The plan would be to carry the battle belt in this location, eventually covered with a pack rain-cover.  I can carry my handgun in my Kit Bag or add the pistol to the pack's hip belt.  I tried a couple of pack dumps and it's not the fastest transition to remove the belt and QLS holster and attach it to the belt, but it's not too bad either.

The battle belt is pretty standard (Ronin Tactics belt) with a couple of pistol mags, single AR mag, compact dump pouch, FAK/TK/Blowout/Shears, knife (ESSE4/Firesteel), and holster.  My future training will attempt to exercise some battle drills where I have to quickly take cover and/or dump the pack, transition to the battle belt and either E&E or maneuver to the threat...always much easier said than done!

No weights yet, but once you start talking ammo, I get ghost pains all over my body  I'll have to wait until I get home to build my "Going Home" pack, but right now have my real-world, get-home kit that would hopefully be my worst-case, 100-mile range kit.

ROCK6

Thanks for the tip on the Bonners and the Picarin.

Sounds like someone needs to develop a quick eject padded hip belt that lets you eject the pack and retain the belt with the battle goodies on it. Pull a handle which pulls some pins out of the connection between the pack and the belt. Something like that. I’m sure we could sell it to the Army for meeeelions. $$$

High ground gear has one.

...like a molle attachment with half the straps on the pack and the other half on the belt and a plastic strap running through them attached to a pull handle on one side. Something like that?

Dang. They stole my good idea.

Only $750
Quick release pack

I had seen that before, couldn't remember the company, thanks.  Yeah, great innovation and I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone to offer it...it's priced for JTAC budgets though

For a smaller Assault Pack, I like it.  My Seek Outside belt would be a great project, although likely not that easy to remove.  They're a floating waist belt and designed to be moved as you can change pack sizes with their frame.  While it's similar to High Ground Gear and doesn't seem like it would support the pack's frame and weight, Seek Outside frames and suspension systems are rated for well over 100 pounds (not that have any desire to hump that kind of weight!).

Kudos to the that company for making a very innovative product with this purpose in mind...I don't feel too bad about my "ad hoc system" as it takes about as long as their system to transition when they include the FAK kit

ROCK6

After years running missions with molle belts and packs I have just decided to keep the entire back of my belt clear so my pack can sit over it. Anything else just pulls the belt down and after a few miles when you start slimming out from water loss your pants follow with it.

Yeah, the only pack I would use with a MOLLE/battle belt is a small one without a waist belt (biggest has been my Mystery Ranch 3DAP).  There's a balance, but hauling a lot of weight with a battle belt just doesn't work well together...at least not for long distance stuff.  Ironically, my micro chest rigs would be far more preferable to a belt system anyways, but I've done so many missions with a battle belt I just kind of got comfortable with it and really like the speed-reload location for the rifle mag...

ROCK6

Yeah, my Mystery Ranch 3DAP and RATs packs have a tiny strap waistbelt that I can still secure higher than my molle belt.  For assault packs I always make sure they arent too tall, like kelty or eberlestocks usually are, but that they can also be expanded somewhat on the sides.