Following with great interest.

I would love a small piece to test, would be happy to post penetration and splatter results with various 5.56 ammo.

Thank you Gary,

I sent a PM.

Hello pdm,

Happy to send samples.  I have requested help setting up advertising on AR15.com.  Until then, please contact me in a way that keeps me out of trouble on the open post.  I really enjoy being a part of it and hopefully you all folks like the chatter.

I was surprised from the technical perspective on the ITAR "split" determination we got a few weeks ago.  "Certified armor plate" to mil dtl 46100E and the tech to make it requires an ITAR license to go OCONUS.  But, we can export Flash AR500 "steel" that has not been Aberdeen certified as armor for both military and civilian use.  Foreign friendly MODs are testing Flash AR500 as we speak.  We did send in the lowest grade of raw material we would ever use and got the Mil Dtl 46100E signatures last summer for that heat of steel.  Since armor is certified "per heat" the Flash plate we are making now from this heat of steel is not officially certified as armor and legal to export for military use as Flash AR500 "steel".  It did easily pass 46100E shots but we did not ask for this heat to be certified.  Seemed silly to me to split the decision but i don't make the rules.

Thanks for the thought of HASC (house armed services committee) but been there, done that.  SASC's top staffer knows me by name/face since i am in Sen Levin's state.  I can tell you with complete honesty i personally have been to the past Vice and current CG of AMC.  My team is just one step below the Commander in Chief if i remember the hierarchy correctly.  At this level, you get lost in the clutter and one untrue report from 8 levels down is enough to scare away support from up high.

Just off the presses at www.insidedefense.com, TRADOC MG Hix says "The Army needs “armor -- material sciences -- that have the same or more protection for less weight."

hello roguetrader,

Good points, sorry, misunderstood the question.

That i am aware of, there is no metal out there that does not suffer from a weakened HAZ.  Some metals are just a lot of work to weld.  All I offer is a higher performing steel, that outperforms titanium armor, to weld together that doesnt get brittle like the others at the HAZ.

The solution it sounds like you seek is possible.  It is a plasma lamp like they have at Oak Ridge National Lab.  The plasma is like a line of laser beam with a 3 foot depth of focus.  What you would do in theory a few years and research dollars from now is weld up a body side of 1/4" plate using FH10/20 welding rod at 0.30% wt C and 0.9%wt Cr.  You would fixture the bodyside vertically and make the plasma and water spray quench move vertically.  starting at the bottom, you would use the plasma to heat up the steel to 2000F and spray two seconds later.  The whole bodyside including weld seams would become Flash Bainite at 260ksi.  We, and the govt labs, have already tested this with two pieces of flat steel welded together then Flashed after welding to make 260ksi weld seams.

De-spalling thread

Here's another Line-x

So I ask why spend so much more on something that is going to do as well as a steel plate?

So all bear with me . . . this is a long post buy i have gotten a lot of questions

I started out making 2x11 foot plates for vehicle armor that some folks wanted to buy as 10"x12" AR500 plates.  Then the talk turned to splatter which is a valid concern.  The SHTF folks understand the risk of splatter but AR500 plates are a low cost alternative that last a long time and can take dozens of hits.  For law enforcement or the non-splatter folks, we have done a lot of testing the last few days.

Shooting 30.06FMJ - M2 Ball at 50 feet going 2700-2800fps.  Here's what we found which you all may know:
1.  Splatter is more like frag than a bullet.
2.  Splatter rips through 10 sheets of kevlar like a knife through butter on the edges of a 10x12 plate,  Kevlar must like to stop bullets that are smooth, not jagged.  STOP JUST WRAPPING YOUR AR500 PLATES WITH KEVLAR, IT DIDNT WORK FOR US against M2 Ball so i doubt it will protect you.
3.  A 0.020" thick shield of aluminum in front of an AR500 plate looks awesome when the splatter blows out the front through it but isnt very safe.
4.  An 1/8" or 1/4" thick shield of aluminum ONLY in front of an AR500 plate deflects all splatter to the outside.  Again, 10 thicknesses of Kevlar doesnt stop the splatter/frag from exiting to your chin, arms, and legs.
5.  A 0.040" thick sheet of aluminum with 5 sheets of Kevlar deflects all splatter/frag to the outside of the 10x12 sheet.  none comes through the front.  Even with all the kevlar trying to catch the splatter as it runs along the plate, splatter/frag blows out the 10 thickness kevlar on the 10x12" outside edges.  Yes, i was surprised!!!

Since Kevlar is useless against splatter/frag at 10x thick, we think a 1/4"x1/4" lip around the 10x12 plate will stop everything.  Next year, we will make that lip, lightly tack weld it on, and test that theory.  This takes us back to a cover plate over the lip to stop the front splatter/frag that we noticed breaking through the 0.020" thick aluminum.  We grabbed a 0.053" thick piece of common, soft rusty steel lying around the shop that had not been hardened, just basic steel (gonna verify later with a known piece of 1018, 950, or similar).  We wrapped it around the 10x12 panel with me saying that it would only stop the front splatter/frag.  Well, needless say, I lost the bet because the 0.053" thick soft steel completely stopped the splatter/frag in all directions, even at the edge of the plate.  This added just over 1.7lbs to the weight of the 7.8lb plate taking it to 9.5lbs.  We then tried 0.025" thick sheet metal wrapped around the AR500 plate and the splatter frag penetrated.  Tomorrow or next year, we are going to try 0.040" thick steel as it may work.  If not, maybe 0.045" thick steel.

I have always been for the KISS method which is how we developed Flash Bainite in the first place.  For all you SHTF folks out there, it might not be a bad idea to go to your local hardware store and buy a 0.040" - 0.060" thin piece of sheet metal, cut it with some tin snips, wrap it around your AR500 plate with a hammer, and take a shot at it.  Use a rifle at a safe distance so you dont dimple the back side of your plate but to test the 0.053" thick splatter shield theory.  Then throw away your thin cover plate with the hole and put a nice fresh one on.  You spent the $100-200 already on the pair of AR500 plates, why not spend another $10-15 to improve your plate to eliminate splatter/frag.  Your AR500 SHTF plate is not for daily wear and the extra few pounds wont kill you to carry around but it might save you from picking splatter/frag out of your arms or the person standing next to you.

Love to hear some feedback from someone else testing this 0.053" soft sheet metal theory on common AR500.  We might find out that 0.053" thick piece we tried here was a better grade than Home Depot steel but it was really easy to bend so i doubt it was some fancy HSLA steel.  Your AR500 should save your life but the 0.053" sheet metal could save you grief.

I admit to being a steel guy, a vehicle steel guy for that matter.  If you have the money for ceramics, buy them and save a few pounds.  But, if a few pounds doesnt matter, make your steel safer and wear something that will stop dozens of M2 Ball rounds without cracking.

Hope this helps.

The aluminum was only against the steel or bonded to it? I want to find a strong flexible glue to hold it to the plate. Later it could be directly bonded to the steel. This would stop the redirecting of the splatter between the plates.

Whether we just clamped aluminum or steel in place with or without Kevlar, the splatter made a sunburst that covered the front of the target.  What i would be afraid of is the glue re-directing the splatter/frag through the front face of the aluminum.  Aluminum has never been any good at stopping AP rounds on a per weight basis compared to steel and is only good at stopping the different size frags once you get much thicker.

This year at Assoc of the US Army annual convention in DC in October, ALCOA finally stopped promoting their aluminum armor so hard.  For years, they had the stupidest display of two scales with 12x12x1" thick blocks of aluminum and steel armor.  They posed the question which was lighter.  Obviously the aluminum weighed 14.4lbs while the steel weighed 40.8lbs.  The problem was that at 14.4psf, about 0.36" of steel beats the daylights out of the same weight 1" aluminum against the two standard DARPA / DOD threats, 0.30-cal M2AP and 20mm FSP.

We are gonna do more testing but i like the 0.050" or so thick steel splatter guard to retrofit onto an AR500 plate.  The beauty of the 0.050" thick steel is that you can bend one on simple and easy.  If your plate gets hit a few times, you can bend off and bend on a new steel sheet.  Since your AR500 plate can likely take dozens of rounds before failure, a sacrificial steel cover could make the plate last longer . . .  although i'd like to think that none of us plan on getting tagged a few dozen times in the back or chest

Flash, thanks for the testing as well as the candor regarding the results.  I may have to recant my previous "unethical" statement

While M2 ball certainly represents a higher magnitude of threat it terms of small arms I would also suggest that you test some of the more common calibers, as well, for frag pattern and degree of penetration. I'd suggest 7.62x39, 9mm and maybe .45 as a baseline .  Clearly the steel plate will defeat the penetration problem but I'm wondering if the variables such as sectional cross density and lower velocity exacerbate the frag problem.

Also did you read the previous test regarding Rhino Liner? To be honest I can't tell from the thread if it worked or not....the initial results looked promising but as I read the post it appeared that some folks called into question if the test even took place at all. Maybe you can decipher.

Here's the actual link from Line-x with a series of photos ref small arms ballistic testing. Not a lot of data on type of round, etc...and as someone mentioned in the base thread I too would love to see the high speed camera shots.  

Edit: Found the high speed Line-x video salient bits start at about the 1:10 mark.

I'm still not convinced that even if effective that a line-x coated steel plate is suitable for PPE though it may suffice in a pinch. The question will be one of cost and weight.  Might be some very interesting vehicle applications though.

The main fragments that need to be stopped are the one traveling parallel to the plate. I do like your solution with the cover though.

Never can tell how long with Holiday mail service but a piece of Flash AR500 is on its way to you for testing.  I included enough 0.053" sheet to cover half the plate.  Fire away and let us know what you find with the splatter/frag.  I am curious what will happen with ten shots in a 2" square pattern.  I know the Flash will stop it as long as M2Balls are side by side and not doubled up.  I am curious if any front splatter will come out though or just blow to the sides.  Even if you have to change the 0.053" thick steel plate because of the misfortune of a dozen handgun shots, it is only the $10 cover to swap out.

I heard that Herculiner was gummier while Rhino Liner was a little more brittle.  We got a gallon of Herc to try next year since that is readily available at most auto parts stores.

The Line-X looks nice after the shots but it also looks thick.  Even though i am guessing it is plastic based and pretty light, the weight could add up.  Any idea on how much the 1/4" thick AR500 weighs after adding Line-x?

All the above questions can be answered in the exhaustive thread on de-spalling AR500.  It is in the Industry section, bottom, TheTargetMan.

Does anyone know what a Rhino-lined 10x12 weighs.  The steel weighs about 8lbs.  From what I am seeing, Rhinolining has a specific gravity of 1.18 so at 3/8" thick, it should add about 1.7lbs to the front side.  Is this accurate?

The vids i found on Youtube show the splatter totally stopped by rhino but a 2" diameter chunk blew off.  Does that chunk blowing off happen often? with every shot?

You need to send samples to International Armoring (http://www.iacarmormax.com/).

They built the president's armored limmo as well as for the queen of England, the Pope,  the PM of England, Australia, Germany, etc.
They sell top end armored vehicles all over the world.  They are a small business located in UT.

Thank you Sir!

Hello Fluwoebers,

Thanks for the lead.  Will do!!!