[ARCHIVED THREAD] - THE JAKL THREAD (Page 3 of 28)
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Can't wait for the uppers to be sold stand alone. Zero interest in the 300blk, but definitely the 5.56, 9mm (hope it can be made to run using standard metal colt mags) and a 5.7x28. Blowback uppers should be a slam dunk. Looking at the photos of the JAKL, the upper has a bigger cross-section than an M11 or M11/9. I've got those on hand, and mocking them up on an ar lower there is more than enough room for 9mm. 5.7x28 will probably be a little tighter but should still be easy. I pulled down my PS90 to look at the bolt size, it's pretty darn close to fitting the standard length of an AR lower. Maybe need to have some tungsten weights to get the mass up in the same receiver cross section.  Would love to see a shorty 7.62x39 upper and a .45acp upper (particularly something that could take grease gun mags). |
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Quoted: Blowback uppers should be a slam dunk. I don't see much of a point in doing blowback at all, especially since there are superior platforms already out there at tough to beat prices (SCORPION). Also, dumb blowback operation is eclipsed in performance by RDBB, Radial, whatever Stribog is doing, etc... JAKL is intended to be a PDW- made to go short and quiet. The adjustable gas system is actually the primary feature, not the side folding stock. Outside of .300 BLK, there is little value in any of that other stuff you mentioned. 5.56 for ammunition compatibility perhaps, but the barrel must be minimum 10.5" to generate adequate velocity and to run with a wide spectrum of suppressors at the manufacturers minimum length. Someone in this project has their thinking cap on with that. More thoughts- Since we're not overly concerned about weight- make the barrel profile thick enough to go suppressed with minimal POI shift, even when things heat up. SOCOM Profile/ .850. Thicker profile than the SHOT prototype. 5.7x28mm is dead, and cheap guns are not going to resurrect it. .45 ACP is interesting, but only in a CMMG radial delayed system, and only after .45 Glock PMags come out in the same lengths as the other Glock PMags. |
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Quoted: I don't see much of a point in doing blowback at all, especially since there are superior platforms already out there at tough to beat prices (SCORPION). Also, dumb blowback operation is eclipsed in performance by RDBB, Radial, whatever Stribog is doing, etc... JAKL is intended to be a PDW- made to go short and quiet. The adjustable gas system is actually the primary feature, not the side folding stock. Outside of .300 BLK, there is little value in any of that other stuff you mentioned. 5.56 for ammunition compatibility perhaps, but the barrel must be minimum 10.5" to generate adequate velocity and to run with a wide spectrum of suppressors at the manufacturers minimum length. Someone in this project has their thinking cap on with that. More thoughts- Since we're not overly concerned about weight- make the barrel profile thick enough to go suppressed with minimal POI shift, even when things heat up. SOCOM Profile/ .850. Thicker profile than the SHOT prototype. 5.7x28mm is dead, and cheap guns are not going to resurrect it. .45 ACP is interesting, but only in a CMMG radial delayed system, and only after .45 Glock PMags come out in the same lengths as the other Glock PMags. Quoted: Quoted: Blowback uppers should be a slam dunk. I don't see much of a point in doing blowback at all, especially since there are superior platforms already out there at tough to beat prices (SCORPION). Also, dumb blowback operation is eclipsed in performance by RDBB, Radial, whatever Stribog is doing, etc... JAKL is intended to be a PDW- made to go short and quiet. The adjustable gas system is actually the primary feature, not the side folding stock. Outside of .300 BLK, there is little value in any of that other stuff you mentioned. 5.56 for ammunition compatibility perhaps, but the barrel must be minimum 10.5" to generate adequate velocity and to run with a wide spectrum of suppressors at the manufacturers minimum length. Someone in this project has their thinking cap on with that. More thoughts- Since we're not overly concerned about weight- make the barrel profile thick enough to go suppressed with minimal POI shift, even when things heat up. SOCOM Profile/ .850. Thicker profile than the SHOT prototype. 5.7x28mm is dead, and cheap guns are not going to resurrect it. .45 ACP is interesting, but only in a CMMG radial delayed system, and only after .45 Glock PMags come out in the same lengths as the other Glock PMags. In 5.56mm and .300blk this is probably a winner. In 9mm with a blowback action it is overshadowed by PSA's own not-MP5. ETA: If they could figure out a decent/economical way to take the PSA-5 roller-delayed action and put it into an AR15-compatible upper it'd be a major winner in 9mm or anything else they could chamber it in. But that'd be a major engineering challenge and the few who have tried to do it have failed afaik. |
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Quoted: I love how you come in her and just denounce anyone you disagree with. It’s hilarious. It’s absurd, but it’s hilarious. I'm just trying to help you guys out. "Durrr... what if it had an MP5 bolt group and ran on Glock Mags..." "I want a greeeeen one!" "What about 9mm Makarov? Where muh Makarov bros at?" "Will PSA please make a custom bug chaser lower for folks who spread the virus?" "Can I fit it in my backpack and tromp around the trailerpark... leeering at sunbathing women, chiding kids at play, and making folks uncomfortable?" DELISH |
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Quoted: I'm just trying to help you guys out. "Durrr... what if it had an MP5 bolt group and ran on Glock Mags..." "I want a greeeeen one!" "What about 9mm Makarov? Where muh Makarov bros at?" "Will PSA please make a custom bug chaser lower for folks who spread the virus?" "Can I fit it in my backpack and tromp around the trailerpark... leeering at sunbathing women, chiding kids at play, and making folks uncomfortable?" DELISH Oh that is a good idea. Fde or burnt bronze would be sweet |
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Quoted: I would expect for 300 blackout we're looking at an 8-9" barre and for 5.56 10.5-11.5 Quoted: Quoted: The barrel is less than 10", so the handguard will be shorter than that. I would expect for 300 blackout we're looking at an 8-9" barre and for 5.56 10.5-11.5 |
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Quoted: I love how you come in her and just denounce anyone you disagree with. It’s hilarious. It’s absurd, but it’s hilarious. Exactly! Glad I’m not the only one tired of this apparent firearms-Einstein and God of “all things technical” preaching to everyone what we should want based on... who the heck knows. “I’m just trying to help you guys out”, don’t bother, consider everyone else a lost cause because we’ll never be anywhere near your level, Mr All-mighty. Anyway still very excited for the Jakl in .300BLK! |
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Quoted: Exactly! Glad I’m not the only one tired of this apparent firearms-Einstein and God of “all things technical” preaching Well I guess not asking for the "chosen one" cartridge draws ridicule, but specifying which ambi safety and mag release is just fine.  The thing is, the JAKL offers an opportunity to create a family of uppers that do not need a buffer tube and interface with standard AR lowers. As such, it is beneficial to chamber in multiple calibers, particularly when much of the design and engineering can be done concurrently. From this standpoint, 5.56 and 300BLK are a large portion of the market, and that's why PSA targeted those first. 9mm also follows as the most common PCC cartridge. Similarly, .45acp is common and there is not really a decent modular PCC for this cartridge. Hell, PSA makes poop flinging gremlin and angry Joe lowers at the drop of a hat, what's wrong with asking for a 5.7 or a 10mm down the road. |
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Quoted: From this standpoint, 5.56 and 300BLK are a large portion of the market, and that's why PSA targeted those first. ...a family of uppers that do not need a buffer tube and interface with standard AR lowers. Quoted: From this standpoint, 5.56 and 300BLK are a large portion of the market, and that's why PSA targeted those first. ...a family of uppers that do not need a buffer tube and interface with standard AR lowers. You completely missed the point. JAKL is for going short and quiet. The primary feature is the adjustable gas system- the folding stock is a "why not?" nice-to-have extra. JAKL is coming in 300 BLK because that's the obvious answer. JAKL is coming in 5.56 because 5.56 is the standard caliber. Quoted: Hell, PSA makes poop flinging gremlin and angry Joe lowers at the drop of a hat, what's wrong with asking for a 5.7 or a 10mm down the road. Accidentally or on purpose, you framed the opportunity beautifully here: If they produce a junker, try to gen-it-out to fund R&D costs, pay heed to the 9x18 Makarov Bros, or deliver some cheap crap designed for the Poop Bois who live in Yee-haw county, Population: Pain Pills who send $25 a week to Joe Olsteen to pray for the return of PTAC... then they have failed. IF they can deliver a quality weapon at a fair price... this will force normal people to take notice. They could introduce a whole new must-own platform- exactly like CZ did with the Scorpion. |
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Quoted: I can only say one exception to that is if you want your suppressor recessed into the handguard. They should offer both options! Quoted: Quoted: Whatever the barrel length is, the handguard should be 1" shorter. HEAR THAT, PSA!!!??? I can only say one exception to that is if you want your suppressor recessed into the handguard. They should offer both options! I agree with both of these. The thing is how do we access the gas block. |
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Quoted: Nobody actually wants that. Heat transfer and heat retention would turn the whole system to shit. JAKL is designed to be suppressed- that's the point. Quoted: Quoted: if you want your suppressor recessed into the handguard. Nobody actually wants that. Heat transfer and heat retention would turn the whole system to shit. JAKL is designed to be suppressed- that's the point. Are you familiar with the honey badger buddy? Seems like a pretty sweet rig. Lots of people seem to like it. And you know what... yes the blackout is meant to be suppressed, and many who might want a quiet bump in the night system. And for that you need some real estate. Peq15 isn’t small. Also some of us who shoot real guns like to extend Our arms further out. For most that’s a minimum of a 9-10” rail. |
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Quoted: Nobody actually wants that. Heat transfer and heat retention would turn the whole system to shit. JAKL is designed to be suppressed- that's the point. Quoted: Quoted: if you want your suppressor recessed into the handguard. Nobody actually wants that. Heat transfer and heat retention would turn the whole system to shit. JAKL is designed to be suppressed- that's the point. Dude you don't own this thread. Yes you started it...thanks. Do us all a favor calm down and let others have an opinion and not be shouted down. |
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Quoted: Are you familiar with the honey badger buddy? Seems like a pretty sweet rig. Lots of people seem to like it. And you know what... yes the blackout is meant to be suppressed, and many who might want a quiet bump in the night system. And for that you need some real estate. Peq15 isn't small. Also some of us who shoot real guns like to extend Our arms further out. For most that's a minimum of a 9-10" rail. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: if you want your suppressor recessed into the handguard. Nobody actually wants that. Heat transfer and heat retention would turn the whole system to shit. JAKL is designed to be suppressed- that's the point. Are you familiar with the honey badger buddy? Seems like a pretty sweet rig. Lots of people seem to like it. And you know what... yes the blackout is meant to be suppressed, and many who might want a quiet bump in the night system. And for that you need some real estate. Peq15 isn't small. Also some of us who shoot real guns like to extend Our arms further out. For most that's a minimum of a 9-10" rail. |
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Quoted: The look is nice, but the idea of putting an expensive light/laser on a giant heat sink is a terrible one. Maybe we should just skip a hand guard all together since it’s quite a heat sink. Personally I’d probably like the hand guard to be right at the edge of the barrel or back enough to allow a Silencer to fit with narrower hand guards. My concern is the prototype has a very very short hand guard. |
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Quoted: Are you familiar with the honey badger buddy? Seems like a pretty sweet rig. Think so? Honey Badger is pure trash from tip to butt. It wouldn't survive a week in operational use... and then you'd be screwed over by proprietary parts trying to get it back up. From the twisty bendy stock, to the useless twist rate- and, oh yeah.... you know that config you referenced was not part of the design when it was marketed to professional users, right? JAKL should look as much like the KAC PDW as possible... because the KAC PDW was made for serious folks, using the input of experienced folks, and not a bunch of hee-haw Sheriffs or instagram shooters. I want the heat OUT of my weapon in-use... NOW, not later... and with minimal transfer to the working parts or the touch parts of the weapon. JAKL should look as much like the KAC PDW as possible. |
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Quoted: Nobody actually wants that. Heat transfer and heat retention would turn the whole system to shit. JAKL is designed to be suppressed- that's the point. Quoted: Nobody actually wants that. Heat transfer and heat retention would turn the whole system to shit. JAKL is designed to be suppressed- that's the point. Have to disagree.. some people do want that or why would some of the most popular firearms have recessed suppressors like the honey badger and the MP5SD. Personally I would definitely consider getting it in this configuration. I have a few firearms in this configuration and I haven't had issues. Quoted: I agree with both of these. The thing is how do we access the gas block. As for the access to the gas block could be trickier.. a few companies have gas blocks accessible from a side cut in the rail. Not saying it is a great idea or a bad one, but it has been done. Edited: Meant to say MP5SD |
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Quoted: Have to disagree.. some people do want that or why would some of the most popular firearms have recessed suppressors like the honey badger and the MP5K. Honey Badger is not intended to be a duty grade weapon. It's more of a concept gun for guys who "shoot" their guns in a light box more than on the range. If you don't believe me, just look at the stock they put on it. MP5K certainly does not use a suppressor trapped under the HGs. It was designed with professional users in mind. You might be thinking of the MP5SD, which is an integrally suppressed weapon... so technically traps the suppressor under the HGs by design. It was also a great failure in professional use due to the barrel porting ahead of the chamber. Pushing heavy, slow bullets through a suppressor is something we do to prevent the projectile from crossing the transsonic threshold and creating a sonic boom. Getting light bullets to move slow by robbing them of their propulsion is... highly undesirable from the shooters perspective. I suppose if you were the one getting shot though, you would prefer to receive a light, slow hit than a heavy slow hit. What were we talking about again? JAKL will not need to worry about handicapping or porting... because the shooter will be able to reach up, flip the unobstructed gas port switch, mount his suppressor using any mount in existence due to the unobstructed muzzle, drop the mag and rechamber a sub, and get bizz-ay. All without unwanted heat transfer or insulation of the suppressor preventing proper cooling. |
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Quoted: I'm only disagreeing in your statement that "no one wants one", because there is a market for it, whether it is good or bad. Well, yeah... truck nuts are a thing too. JAKL has the potential to be a beautiful weapon- a MUST OWN piece that forces serious folks to take notice of PSA and what they are doing. Even the detractors of PSA could be won over by a solid delivery on this project. It's almost Masada-like in it's potential. There are similarities... let's just not have PSA be the Bushmaster of the second act. |
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Quoted: Well, yeah... truck nuts are a thing too. JAKL has the potential to be a beautiful weapon- a MUST OWN piece that forces serious folks to take notice of PSA and what they are doing. Even the detractors of PSA could be won over by a solid delivery on this project. It's almost Masada-like in it's potential. There are similarities... let's just not have PSA be the Bushmaster of the second act. I see what you did there. I can't see PSA not delivering, especially this. They brought the KS-47, totally killing the competitor's pricing.. then the AK-V which I find very bold move. With the JAKL... It's been a while since I've been excited to see anything in the AR platform. |
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Quoted: I can't see PSA not delivering, especially this. They brought the KS-47, totally killing the competitor's pricing.. Unfortunately, I can see it- if the QA/QC isn't there, or if they gen-it-out and use the first round of sales to simultaneously fund the completion of the development effort and log the failure points at the same time, it will be a huge flop. The price is irrelevant. If it adds $100 per weapon to the cost, just to properly deliver to market, it should be done. |
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Quoted: Well, yeah... truck nuts are a thing too. JAKL has the potential to be a beautiful weapon- a MUST OWN piece that forces serious folks to take notice of PSA and what they are doing. Even the detractors of PSA could be won over by a solid delivery on this project. It's almost Masada-like in it's potential. There are similarities... let's just not have PSA be the Bushmaster of the second act. It’s been a while(I’ve tried to push the acr out of my mind), but if I remember the reason why I didn’t buy an acr was weight, price, lack of modularity and crappy hand guard issues. You keep regurgitating the same thing. Without addressing what most people actually want in their rifle. |
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Quoted: Without addressing what most people actually want in their rifle. That's all on the first page- and there's lots of it. The comparison to the Masada is that Magpul created something that everyone wanted, based on- real world user input from smart people. Then Bushmaster/Rem made compromises and junked it out. KAC's concept gun should be followed as closely as possible, without compromises, when designing the JAKL. They could have a winner. |
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Quoted: That's all on the first page- and there's lots of it. The comparison to the Masada is that Magpul created something that everyone wanted, based on- real world user input from smart people. Then Bushmaster/Rem made compromises and junked it out. KAC's concept gun should be followed as closely as possible, without compromises, when designing the JAKL. They could have a winner. I give up. The idea that we should follow a weapon that’s 13 years old when we’ve had many changes in ergonomics and design seems pretty stupid. If I was buying it for my six year old daughter. Yeah, who needs a longer hand guard. For adults who have normal length arms or want to mount a light, peq15, a rail that’s 1” less than the threads makes the most sense. |
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Quoted: The idea that we should follow a weapon that’s 13 years old when we’ve had many changes in ergonomics and design seems pretty stupid. My arms are the exact same length as they were 13 years ago. If you got sold some snake oil on "innovative new grip," then you could always wait for the next guy to come around and "innovate" it again. The fundamentals of marksmanship, however, are a constant. As far as going long- you missed the point. JAKL is for going short and quiet. |
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Quoted: Honey Badger is not intended to be a duty grade weapon. It's more of a concept gun for guys who "shoot" their guns in a light box more than on the range. If you don't believe me, just look at the stock they put on it. MP5K certainly does not use a suppressor trapped under the HGs. It was designed with professional users in mind. You might be thinking of the MP5SD, which is an integrally suppressed weapon... so technically traps the suppressor under the HGs by design. It was also a great failure in professional use due to the barrel porting ahead of the chamber. Pushing heavy, slow bullets through a suppressor is something we do to prevent the projectile from crossing the transsonic threshold and creating a sonic boom. Getting light bullets to move slow by robbing them of their propulsion is... highly undesirable from the shooters perspective. I suppose if you were the one getting shot though, you would prefer to receive a light, slow hit than a heavy slow hit. What were we talking about again? JAKL will not need to worry about handicapping or porting... because the shooter will be able to reach up, flip the unobstructed gas port switch, mount his suppressor using any mount in existence due to the unobstructed muzzle, drop the mag and rechamber a sub, and get bizz-ay. All without unwanted heat transfer or insulation of the suppressor preventing proper cooling. Do some research. The Honey Badger was designed by request from a Special Mission Unit, in the hopes of coming up with a system that could effectively replace the MP5SD so please stop telling everyone its not a duty grade weapons You don't like it, that is fine, neither do I but spewing false opinions doesn't help anyone in this thread. |
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Quoted: Do some research. The Honey Badger was designed by request from a Special Mission Unit, in the hopes of coming up with a system that could effectively replace the MP5SD so please stop telling everyone its not a duty grade weapons You don't like it, that is fine, neither do I but spewing false opinions doesn't help anyone in this thread. Quoted: Quoted: Honey Badger is not intended to be a duty grade weapon. It's more of a concept gun for guys who "shoot" their guns in a light box more than on the range. If you don't believe me, just look at the stock they put on it. MP5K certainly does not use a suppressor trapped under the HGs. It was designed with professional users in mind. You might be thinking of the MP5SD, which is an integrally suppressed weapon... so technically traps the suppressor under the HGs by design. It was also a great failure in professional use due to the barrel porting ahead of the chamber. Pushing heavy, slow bullets through a suppressor is something we do to prevent the projectile from crossing the transsonic threshold and creating a sonic boom. Getting light bullets to move slow by robbing them of their propulsion is... highly undesirable from the shooters perspective. I suppose if you were the one getting shot though, you would prefer to receive a light, slow hit than a heavy slow hit. What were we talking about again? JAKL will not need to worry about handicapping or porting... because the shooter will be able to reach up, flip the unobstructed gas port switch, mount his suppressor using any mount in existence due to the unobstructed muzzle, drop the mag and rechamber a sub, and get bizz-ay. All without unwanted heat transfer or insulation of the suppressor preventing proper cooling. Do some research. The Honey Badger was designed by request from a Special Mission Unit, in the hopes of coming up with a system that could effectively replace the MP5SD so please stop telling everyone its not a duty grade weapons You don't like it, that is fine, neither do I but spewing false opinions doesn't help anyone in this thread. The SIG MCX seems to now be doing what the Honey Badger was intended for, and the versions of it that real-life units use also lack the silly suppressor covering handguards. |
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Quoted: Half the tactical-flavored guns in existence were "designed by request from a Special Mission Unit" or something similar. That means less than nothing, just marketing wank which should be obvious by the fact that is uses the generic term "Special Mission Unit". The Honey Badger was never used by anyone for serious work. The SIG MCX seems to now be doing what the Honey Badger was intended for, and the versions of it that real-life units use also lack the silly suppressor covering handguards. But the hand guard is also roughly 1” behind the barrel threads. Not 3” back like your suggestion. |
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Quoted: But the hand guard is also roughly 1" behind the barrel threads. Not 3" back like your suggestion. Quoted: Quoted: Half the tactical-flavored guns in existence were "designed by request from a Special Mission Unit" or something similar. That means less than nothing, just marketing wank which should be obvious by the fact that is uses the generic term "Special Mission Unit". The Honey Badger was never used by anyone for serious work. The SIG MCX seems to now be doing what the Honey Badger was intended for, and the versions of it that real-life units use also lack the silly suppressor covering handguards. But the hand guard is also roughly 1" behind the barrel threads. Not 3" back like your suggestion. |
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Quoted: Do some research. The Honey Badger was designed by request from a Special Mission Unit, in the hopes of coming up with a system that could effectively replace the MP5SD so please stop telling everyone its not a duty grade weapons You don't like it, that is fine, neither do I but spewing false opinions doesn't help anyone in this thread. Hello *waves*, I am KalashniKEV. I posted the first pictures of the Honey Badger online back in October of 2011 on M4C, after receiving permission from a name-you-know. I posted, "I'm digging the buttstock" in that very first post, because I recognized it for what it was- a .300 BLK gun (somewhat faddish at the time*) finished in Pimp Gold with some nifty proprietary parts for backyard operations. Cue the wailing guitars. Noveske take notice. I told them (AAC at that time) that the stock was flimsy, but I looked forward to buying a complete SBR. The whole spiel about it being a "secret weapon" for the war either was not related to me, or came about later. I noted on that same day/ same thread, " If you tried to break your fall with the buttstock and roll into the prone doing buddy rushes, it would break. I don't think they made it for that though..." They never did beef up the stock though, or create full compatibility with standard parts, so huge opportunity missed on their part. Was it "designed for special operations" like the Mk 48 was? No. Was it "designed with input from special operators" like the Luminox NAVY SEAL watch or the SOG SEAL Pup Knife or my NAVY SEAL Calendar in my locker was? Possibly. They need to fix the twist rate, eliminate proprietary parts, beef up the buttsock (or go standard, or go internal spring) and tone down the Liberace vibe before they get a serious look for some major sales. ...and they're out there if they want them. That's the real deal on all of that. *faddish in the consumer world. 5th Group at least was using some .300 Whisper around 2005, but it was not common at all. |
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Quoted: @palmettostatearmory At 24:40 in the Scorpion AR/ JAKL vid, the question is asked if it is still a monolithic receiver. Dale PSA responds, "Yeah... so the receiver itself will still look the same from the outside." Is that a "No?" It is a monolithic receiver. Thanks, Josiah |
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Quoted: It is a monolithic receiver. Thanks, Josiah Perfect! Thanks for the quick response! EDIT: Also, your man Dale sounds like he has his head on straight WRT .300 BLK and and what JAKL should be. I'm more confident now that I have seen the guy and heard him speak. I hope he doesn't place too much weight in the opinions of backpack-maniacs and end-of-the-world-truckees, and instead has a picture in his head of a no-bullshit guy whipping JAKL in a serious way. If, by chance, he practices any meditation techniques to draw his focus, he can use this visualization exercise to achieve greater success. |
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I have no fears that PSA won't make a good thing out of this. I feel they have done a great thing producing different firearms that work.. possibly with minor issues, but gen 1 releases can always be that way. Among me and my friends, we all have different variants of PSA firearms. Only one had an issue due to buffer tube was not positioned correctly before staked. My friend just realigned and carried on. |