User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
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Posted: 2/9/2023 6:37:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Today the bill was referred to the Senate judiciary committee.
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Posted: 2/9/2023 9:30:39 PM EDT
[#2]
Great to hear. Thanks for the update.
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Posted: 2/13/2023 8:25:31 PM EDT
[#3]
I really hope this passes
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Posted: 2/16/2023 6:04:00 PM EDT
[#4]
Honest to God, I don't see how carrying one is any more dangerous than carrying a traditional folder, except possibly to the one actually carrying it.
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Posted: 2/19/2023 11:03:59 PM EDT
[#5]
It’s on the docket for judiciary tomorrow, a long with a bunch of gun bills. Should be an interesting day.
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Posted: 2/20/2023 1:52:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s on the docket for judiciary tomorrow, a long with a bunch of gun bills. Should be an interesting day. Anybody know what happened this morning? The online status has not been updated. ETA: Answered my own question. Bill was reported out 12-0. |
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Posted: 2/20/2023 3:42:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anybody know what happened this morning? The online status has not been updated. ETA: Answered my own question. Bill was reported out 12-0. Awesome. That’s usually a good sign for when it hits the floor. |
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Posted: 2/20/2023 3:59:11 PM EDT
[#8]
It now looks like it was passed our "with amendment." That complicated things. All the house bill does is strike "switchblade knife" from 18.2-308. The amendment is not yet up online.
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Posted: 2/20/2023 4:30:32 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It now looks like it was passed our "with amendment." That complicated things. All the house bill does is strike "switchblade knife" from 18.2-308. The amendment is not yet up online. It’s up. Looks like it includes “stiletto knife” in place of “switchblade knife.” |
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Posted: 2/20/2023 4:55:38 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s up. Looks like it includes “stiletto knife” in place of “switchblade knife.” That is a shitshow. They are introducing a new, undefined term into the law. How are you supposed to know if your knife is a stiletto or not? The Virginia appellate courts have resorted to dictionary definitions in the past. The 1992 Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary I have on my desk defines it as "a slender dagger with a blade thick in proportion to its breadth." That does not seem to encompass a folding knife at all. |
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Posted: 2/20/2023 5:41:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is a shitshow. They are introducing a new, undefined term into the law. How are you supposed to know if your knife is a stiletto or not? The Virginia appellate courts have resorted to dictionary definitions in the past. The 1992 Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary I have on my desk defines it as "a slender dagger with a blade thick in proportion to its breadth." That does not seem to encompass a folding knife at all. They’re making money for lawyers- you’ll have to look at case law, such as “[a] ‘dirk’ or weapon of like kind is any stabbing weapon having two sharp edges and a point, including daggers, short swords and stilettos.” Richards v. Commonwealth, 18 Va.App. 242, 246 n. 2, 443 S.E.2d 177, 179 n. 2 (1994). So, arguably, stilettos were already prohibited as like kind to dirks. It will give someone something to negotiate with in conference. |
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Posted: 2/23/2023 11:49:57 PM EDT
[#12]
The house passed the senate version today, so it will go to the governor.
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Posted: 2/24/2023 9:30:01 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The house passed the senate version today, so it will go to the governor. He better sign it. Off to blade hq |
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Posted: 2/25/2023 11:27:09 AM EDT
[#14]
Good news...I think.
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Posted: 2/25/2023 6:18:50 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He better sign it. Off to blade hq I am hoping that rather than merely signing, Governor Youngkin will offer an amendment to strip out the Senate language adding in a ban on carrying a "stiletto knife"--whatever that means. |
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Posted: 2/25/2023 7:00:51 PM EDT
[#16]
Stiletto knife pretty much means a knife with both edges of the blade sharpened.
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Posted: 2/25/2023 8:08:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stiletto knife pretty much means a knife with both edges of the blade sharpened. What legal authority is there for that understanding? |
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Posted: 2/25/2023 9:54:05 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What legal authority is there for that understanding? Well, there’s the case I cited above to start. |
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Posted: 2/26/2023 10:53:13 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, there’s the case I cited above to start. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What legal authority is there for that understanding? Well, there’s the case I cited above to start. Well, I have previously read all the SCV and court of appeals cases interpreting the various knife provisions of 18.2-308. The two step analysis you cite is well established. First, the court will ask if the item in question is one of the prohibited item. If yes, then the defendant is guilty. If no, then the court will ask if the item is “of like kind” to one of the prohibited items. That requires the court to understand the defining characteristics of each item. As I recall, the court has defined dirk, dagger, and Bowie knife based on dictionary definitions. The point I am raising is that there is no authority establishing a definition of “stiletto knife,” and there won’t be until someone is charged, convicted, and appeals. That creates an uncertainty in the law that leaves is all in doubt about what is legal. For instance is stiletto a subset of switchblade (likely what they meant), or is it a variety of dagger that does not include folders at all? |
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Posted: 2/26/2023 3:56:47 PM EDT
[#20]
Seems they don't really know what a stiletto is, They think is a OTF knife.
From VCDL: VCDL Legislative Update and help needed request 2/23/23 Good news! HB 2298, Ware, which makes switchblades legal to carry in a pocket, just passed out of the General Assembly and heads to the Governor's desk to be signed into law! The Senate Judiciary committee amended the bill to exclude stilettos because one of the gun-control enthusiasts confused the committee by saying that a knife blade that comes out of the front of the knife is a stiletto. A stiletto has nothing to do with how the blade is deployed, but merely defines the shape of the blade. A stiletto is just another name for a dirk or dagger, which is already not allowed to be carried concealed. There may still be a chance to get that redundant "stiletto" wording removed before it becomes law on July 1 (assuming the Governor doesn't veto the bill). |
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Posted: 2/27/2023 9:12:11 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, I have previously read all the SCV and court of appeals cases interpreting the various knife provisions of 18.2-308. The two step analysis you cite is well established. First, the court will ask if the item in question is one of the prohibited item. If yes, then the defendant is guilty. If no, then the court will ask if the item is “of like kind” to one of the prohibited items. That requires the court to understand the defining characteristics of each item. As I recall, the court has defined dirk, dagger, and Bowie knife based on dictionary definitions. The point I am raising is that there is no authority establishing a definition of “stiletto knife,” and there won’t be until someone is charged, convicted, and appeals. That creates an uncertainty in the law that leaves is all in doubt about what is legal. For instance is stiletto a subset of switchblade (likely what they meant), or is it a variety of dagger that does not include folders at all? You might want to read McMillan v Comm., 55 Va. App. 392 (2009). |
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Posted: 2/28/2023 11:30:39 AM EDT
[#22]
If this passes it may make it less nebulous to carry a knife in Virginia.
As I recall they pretty much could charge you with carrying a concealed weapon for anything other than a "common pen knife". I'd like to see the concealed weapon law repealed to create true constitutional carry. |
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Posted: 2/28/2023 10:21:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Simple solution is to not carry it concealed. Clip it to your pocket and don’t wear baggy clothes that cover it from “common observation”
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Posted: 3/10/2023 2:43:10 PM EDT
[#24]
This legislative mess is so confusing; it is almost like they WANTED it that way . . .
 But I am used to it. I’m originally from MD, and I even lived in DC. If democrats can’t outright ban something, they will happily muddy the waters so much, it’s nearly impossible to see anything at all. I am not going to spend $$ to buy an automatic knife for carry just yet. |
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Posted: 3/14/2023 5:36:33 PM EDT
[#25]
Reading thru the bill. It looks like automatic knives will be good to go for carry as long as they're not double-edged.
Basically, something like a double edge Microtech Troodon D/E would still be illegal due to the "stiletto" idiocy. However a Microtech Troodon S/E would be g2g. |
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Posted: 3/14/2023 8:50:13 PM EDT
[#26]
Has it been signed and does it go into effect 7/1?
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Posted: 3/14/2023 9:06:13 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Has it been signed and does it go into effect 7/1? Not yet. If you click on the link I provided in the OP, you can see the current status. The governor has until midnight on 3/27 to act. |
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Posted: 3/15/2023 5:32:36 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not yet. If you click on the link I provided in the OP, you can see the current status. The governor has until midnight on 3/27 to act. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Has it been signed and does it go into effect 7/1? Not yet. If you click on the link I provided in the OP, you can see the current status. The governor has until midnight on 3/27 to act. Thank you! |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 5:21:40 PM EDT
[#29]
LIS has been updated, looks like he approved it yesterday.
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Posted: 3/27/2023 11:07:30 PM EDT
[#30]
If the governor make and changes would that show up in LIS? Wondering if they altered the stiletto language.
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Posted: 3/28/2023 6:24:02 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the governor make and changes would that show up in LIS? Wondering if they altered the stiletto language. He did not make any amendments. If he wanted to alter the language, it would have to go back to the GA for approval. Looks like he approved it as is. |
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Posted: 3/28/2023 10:53:51 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You might want to read McMillan v Comm., 55 Va. App. 392 (2009). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well, I have previously read all the SCV and court of appeals cases interpreting the various knife provisions of 18.2-308. The two step analysis you cite is well established. First, the court will ask if the item in question is one of the prohibited item. If yes, then the defendant is guilty. If no, then the court will ask if the item is “of like kind” to one of the prohibited items. That requires the court to understand the defining characteristics of each item. As I recall, the court has defined dirk, dagger, and Bowie knife based on dictionary definitions. The point I am raising is that there is no authority establishing a definition of “stiletto knife,” and there won’t be until someone is charged, convicted, and appeals. That creates an uncertainty in the law that leaves is all in doubt about what is legal. For instance is stiletto a subset of switchblade (likely what they meant), or is it a variety of dagger that does not include folders at all? You might want to read McMillan v Comm., 55 Va. App. 392 (2009). To close the loop on this for the benefit of others, McMillan involved a defendant charged for having a dive knife riveted to the inside of the driver's door on his vehicle. His conviction was reversed by the Court of Appeals. They determined that it was not one of the types of knives listed in 18.2-308, nor was it a weapon of like kind. They reached the latter conclusion by finding it was not a weapon at all. What does that have to do with Stilettos? Well, in the course of the opinion, they discuss the dictionary definition of "stiletto," which is a term otherwise undefined in Virginia law. A "dagger" is "a short knife used for stabbing," and its definition refers to a "stiletto." Webster's Third New International Dictionary 570 (1993). However, the definition of a "stiletto" is not particularly helpful, as it is defined as "a slender dagger with a blade that is thick in proportion to its breadth." This is certainly something we could cite to in defending a case, but in my view it is dicta and not binding authority. If you accept this definition and choose to rely on it, then it is hard to see how a folding knife of any type can be a stiletto. |
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Posted: 3/28/2023 4:44:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To close the loop on this for the benefit of others, McMillan involved a defendant charged for having a dive knife riveted to the inside of the driver's door on his vehicle. His conviction was reversed by the Court of Appeals. They determined that it was not one of the types of knives listed in 18.2-308, nor was it a weapon of like kind. They reached the latter conclusion by finding it was not a weapon at all. What does that have to do with Stilettos? Well, in the course of the opinion, they discuss the dictionary definition of "stiletto," which is a term otherwise undefined in Virginia law. McMillan v. Commonwealth, 55 Va. App. 392, 397 (2009)(quoting Webster's Third New International Dictionary 2243 (1993)). This is certainly something we could cite to in defending a case, but in my view it is dicta and not binding authority. If you accept this definition and choose to rely on it, then it is hard to see how a folding knife of any type can be a stiletto. Now look at the sentence right before that, where the court cites to the definition of "dirk." A dirk is any stabbing weapon with two sharp edges and a point... including stilettos. So, if dirk includes stilettos, and a dirk is a stabbing weapon with two sharpened edges and point, what characteristics does a stiletto have? I would argue that the definition cited is NOT dicta, as it is part of the analysis to determine whether the knife possessed in the case fell under the statute. The court needed to determine whether it was a listed item or of like kind. In making that determination, the court recited the definition that it would use in making that determination, i.e. the rationale or rule that would control the case. |
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Posted: 3/28/2023 5:39:25 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now look at the sentence right before that, where the court cites to the definition of "dirk." A dirk is any stabbing weapon with two sharp edges and a point... including stilettos. So, if dirk includes stilettos, and a dirk is a stabbing weapon with two sharpened edges and point, what characteristics does a stiletto have? I would argue that the definition cited is NOT dicta, as it is part of the analysis to determine whether the knife possessed in the case fell under the statute. The court needed to determine whether it was a listed item or of like kind. In making that determination, the court recited the definition that it would use in making that determination, i.e. the rationale or rule that would control the case. We will likely find out at some point, but in terms of giving advice about how to stay within the law, I suggest refraining from the concealed carry of any double edged knife. The should eliminate dirk, dagger, or stiletto. And don't carry a concealed Bowie or machete. |
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Posted: 3/28/2023 5:50:53 PM EDT
[#35]
How CHP holders are not exempt from this BS (or why the permit isn't a CWP) has bewildered me for decades.
Anyone know if a collapsible baton is prohibited from concealed carry by virtue of any of the archaic words used in this section? It mentions spring stick, but common collapsible batons are not typically sprint activated. Do they ever define these terms? |
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Posted: 3/28/2023 6:03:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How CHP holders are not exempt from this BS (or why the permit isn't a CWP) has bewildered me for decades. Anyone know if a collapsible baton is prohibited from concealed carry by virtue of any of the archaic words used in this section? It mentions spring stick, but common collapsible batons are not typically sprint activated. Do they ever define these terms? I don't know what a spring stick is, but I think there is a decent chance a court (or at least a cop on the street) might conclude that an ASP baton is at least a weapon of like kind. I advise against carrying a baton concealed. I agree it makes no sense you can carry a handgun but not a baton. |
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Posted: 3/28/2023 6:21:15 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know what a spring stick is, but I think there is a decent chance a court (or at least a cop on the street) might conclude that an ASP baton is at least a weapon of like kind. I advise against carrying a baton concealed. I agree it makes no sense you can carry a handgun but not a baton. Yeah, I've always suspected that, which actually sucks for me, because I like to carry one when I walk my dog. It's usually crammed in my back pocket, half visible I guess. Unless I'm wearing a coat, which I never do, of course. |
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Posted: 3/29/2023 8:40:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, I've always suspected that, which actually sucks for me, because I like to carry one when I walk my dog. It's usually crammed in my back pocket, half visible I guess. Unless I'm wearing a coat, which I never do, of course. I’ve seen neck sheaths for smaller ASP Batons. Just carry a baseball and a tennis ball you “hit” for your dog. Zero questions asked…. |
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Posted: 3/29/2023 9:22:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve seen neck sheaths for smaller ASP Batons. Just carry a baseball and a tennis ball you “hit” for your dog. Zero questions asked…. You can open carry any kind of club or baton you want. |
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Posted: 3/30/2023 7:04:52 PM EDT
[#40]
According to VCDL's Legislative Wrap up:
"Do NOT carry a concealed knife (switchblade or not) that has a stiletto-type blade with one or two sharp edges that continuously narrows down to a sharp tip for stabbing and is not designed for cutting." |
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Posted: 3/30/2023 7:47:02 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: According to VCDL's Legislative Wrap up: "Do NOT carry a concealed knife (switchblade or not) that has a stiletto-type blade with one or two sharp edges that continuously narrows down to a sharp tip for stabbing and is not designed for cutting." Umm that’s like every knife with a point? |
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Posted: 3/30/2023 8:35:33 PM EDT
[#42]
Anyone know what's considered "not concealed"?
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Posted: 3/31/2023 10:01:08 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone know what's considered "not concealed"? Concealed means hidden from common observation. So Not Concealed means that it can be seen by common observation. or in other words if common or reasonable person were to look at you and say "That's a knife" It is not concealed. |
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Posted: 3/31/2023 3:15:21 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Concealed means hidden from common observation. So Not Concealed means that it can be seen by common observation. or in other words if common or reasonable person were to look at you and say "That's a knife" It is not concealed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Anyone know what's considered "not concealed"? Concealed means hidden from common observation. So Not Concealed means that it can be seen by common observation. or in other words if common or reasonable person were to look at you and say "That's a knife" It is not concealed. Thanks that validates what I was thinking. |
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Posted: 4/1/2023 5:12:13 PM EDT
[#45]
I agree with your observation 100% but the way I interpret it is that it:
Prohibits blades with 2 sharpened edges coming to a point intended to act as a "stilleto", "dagger", "dirk" or "the like" with both edges coming to a point facilitating penetration by stabbing. Note that these blade types in fixed blades have been prohibited from "concealed" under existing Virginia law. So now this also applies to these blade types in auto knives when being carried concealed. The "workaround" for me suggests that a single sharpened edge with either a "drop point", "clip point" or the like which serve a utilitarian/EDC platform intended for cutting, slicing, etc. Is it a BS restriction? You bet! |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:25:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree with your observation 100% but the way I interpret it is that it: Prohibits blades with 2 sharpened edges coming to a point intended to act as a "stilleto", "dagger", "dirk" or "the like" with both edges coming to a point facilitating penetration by stabbing. Note that these blade types in fixed blades have been prohibited from "concealed" under existing Virginia law. So now this also applies to these blade types in auto knives when being carried concealed. The "workaround" for me suggests that a single sharpened edge with either a "drop point", "clip point" or the like which serve a utilitarian/EDC platform intended for cutting, slicing, etc. Is it a BS restriction? You bet! I’d be cautious with clip points like Kabars and the like. They can be compared to Bowie knives, which are also named in the law. |
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Posted: 5/19/2023 4:14:05 PM EDT
[#47]
https://www.knifeshop.com/en/product/1923/stiletto_28cm_-_11_fb-s28b-iiv.html
Lets pretend the name of the knife above is something different. Is it not a stiletto in VA because it only has one side sharpened? |
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Posted: 5/28/2023 8:41:28 AM EDT
[#48]
So are we still at OK to possess a switchblade, but illegal to carry concealed?
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Posted: 7/12/2023 9:46:01 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So are we still at OK to possess a switchblade, but illegal to carry concealed? As of 7/1/2023 you can carry it concealed. |
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