Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Site Notices
Posted: 5/13/2021 10:11:24 AM EDT
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1200165.pdf

TLDR version is that guy had a pistol in a zipped-closed backpack, got charged with carry a concealed weapon after the car got tossed because of the "odor of marijuana" stuff. Had a prior CCW conviction, which I believe makes the second one a felony.

SCV says that a handgun in a closed backpack is "secured" in a container. Conviction reversed.
Link Posted: 5/13/2021 10:13:15 AM EDT
[#1]
As it should be reversed.

Good job SCV.
Link Posted: 5/13/2021 11:02:42 AM EDT
[#2]
I've had many arguments with officers over the interpretation of the section.  What's a container, what's secured, etc.  I'm glad the court actually exercised some intellectual honesty in determining that secured means just that.  Of course, now Levine will introduce language to either repeal the provision entirely or change it back to "locked."

I think the real interesting debate would be over what qualifies as a "container."
Link Posted: 5/13/2021 1:28:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've had many arguments with officers over the interpretation of the section.  What's a container, what's secured, etc.  I'm glad the court actually exercised some intellectual honesty in determining that secured means just that.  Of course, now Levine will introduce language to either repeal the provision entirely or change it back to "locked."

I think the real interesting debate would be over what qualifies as a "container."
View Quote


That statutory language has been argued about for years, so I'm glad as well. There's already speculation on one lawyer listserve I'm on about whether the GA will try to "fix" this and go back to the "locked container" or similar language.

As far as what qualifies as a container - seems like almost anything, now, that can be closed "securely," even if it's just a zipper or a plastic clasp. The opinion discusses that a bit. (*NOTE* - Not legal advice or a recommendation to test the limits, for anyone reading this.)
Link Posted: 5/13/2021 3:04:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


That statutory language has been argued about for years, so I'm glad as well. There's already speculation on one lawyer listserve I'm on about whether the GA will try to "fix" this and go back to the "locked container" or similar language.

As far as what qualifies as a container - seems like almost anything, now, that can be closed "securely," even if it's just a zipper or a plastic clasp. The opinion discusses that a bit. (*NOTE* - Not legal advice or a recommendation to test the limits, for anyone reading this.)
View Quote




So SCOTUS previously defined a container as an object that can hold another object (or WTTE).  Is my holster a container, if it has a retention strap or other retention mechanism? OK, now how about my plastic Wal-mart bag, if I tie the handles together?  

These are the fun arguments I miss now that I'm out of the regular practice of law.  I'm pretty sure I know a judge or two that I could get to buy into the Walmart bag argument...
Link Posted: 5/13/2021 4:23:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
... Of course, now Levine will introduce language to either repeal the provision entirely or change it back to "locked."

View Quote


Hopefully, Levine gets primaried this cycle. The Vice Mayor of Alexandria is running against him and she garnered quite a few votes for City Council last cycle. Even Ebbin, the State Senator for the Alexandria area, endorsed her over Levine.

She is a Karen but I doubt she'll be as obsessed with curtailing 2A rights as much as Levine has. He proposes extreme shit every year.  
Link Posted: 5/13/2021 5:02:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Hopefully, Levine gets primaried this cycle. The Vice Mayor of Alexandria is running against him and she garnered quite a few votes for City Council last cycle. Even Ebbin, the State Senator for the Alexandria area, endorsed her over Levine.

She is a Karen but I doubt she'll be as obsessed with curtailing 2A rights as much as Levine has. He proposes extreme shit every year.  
View Quote



Some of the stories I've heard from legislative staffing folks about Levine are cringe worthy.  Like Hank Johnson level cringe.
Link Posted: 5/13/2021 10:32:56 PM EDT
[#7]
I don’t practice anymore either but, based on that opinion, I think I could argue the plastic bag with handles “securely tied” (see what I did there) as well :)


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




So SCOTUS previously defined a container as an object that can hold another object (or WTTE).  Is my holster a container, if it has a retention strap or other retention mechanism? OK, now how about my plastic Wal-mart bag, if I tie the handles together?  

These are the fun arguments I miss now that I'm out of the regular practice of law.  I'm pretty sure I know a judge or two that I could get to buy into the Walmart bag argument...
View Quote

Link Posted: 5/14/2021 10:48:41 PM EDT
[#8]
The old "odor of marijuana" routine. Such a played out trick.
Link Posted: 5/15/2021 4:43:40 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The old "odor of marijuana" routine. Such a played out trick.
View Quote


It doesn't work anymore. As of March 1, 2021 the "odor of marijuana" is no longer probable cause for a vehicle search in Virginia.
Link Posted: 5/16/2021 12:54:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Pulled for speeding in Fauquier county a few months ago.
Gun in glove box.
Registration in glove box.
This problem has been corrected by putting paperwork in a separate place from gun.

Told deputy "I have a gun in the glove box with my registration."
He asked "Is that going to be a problem.?'"
I said "For a traffic stop? I just want to drop it on the floor."
Him:" Sounds fine."
Clinkas gun hits th efloor.
"Do you have a CHP?"
"Had one, but expired."
He pints at his eyes.  "Concealed."

Me: "We changed the law a few years back.
Secured in a closed container."
We went back and forth calmly a few times.
He goes back to write up ticket.

I am reasonably sure he must have called in.

He comes back, charged me with disobeying a highway sign,
cutting the fine in half from speeding 10 over.
Not another word about the gun.

Two actual adults.
No one was shot, nothing happened.

I think he called into the station, and reducing the ticket was
his way of thanking me for keeping him from looking foolish.

I now have a copy of the applicable code section in with the
registration in both vehicles.
Link Posted: 5/19/2021 9:12:21 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




So SCOTUS previously defined a container as an object that can hold another object (or WTTE).  Is my holster a container, if it has a retention strap or other retention mechanism? OK, now how about my plastic Wal-mart bag, if I tie the handles together?  

These are the fun arguments I miss now that I'm out of the regular practice of law.  I'm pretty sure I know a judge or two that I could get to buy into the Walmart bag argument...
View Quote


I had this exact discussion with my officers on numerous occasions. It was my opinion that a McDonald's bag was a container, and that if the top was rolled shut, it was secured. And if you play through the logic, it makes sense: it therefore requires at least one additional step in order to access the weapon. If the weapon isn't readily accessible, it's not "dangerous" from the standpoint of being concealed, and that's the purported purpose of the statute.

I think this is a proper ruling, based on the text of the statute, and I want to point out that it's in line with the AG's opinion on the topic, though it was non-binding.
Link Posted: 5/19/2021 11:56:06 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I had this exact discussion with my officers on numerous occasions. It was my opinion that a McDonald's bag was a container, and that if the top was rolled shut, it was secured. And if you play through the logic, it makes sense: it therefore requires at least one additional step in order to access the weapon. If the weapon isn't readily accessible, it's not "dangerous" from the standpoint of being concealed, and that's the purported purpose of the statute.

I think this is a proper ruling, based on the text of the statute, and I want to point out that it's in line with the AG's opinion on the topic, though it was non-binding.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:




So SCOTUS previously defined a container as an object that can hold another object (or WTTE).  Is my holster a container, if it has a retention strap or other retention mechanism? OK, now how about my plastic Wal-mart bag, if I tie the handles together?  

These are the fun arguments I miss now that I'm out of the regular practice of law.  I'm pretty sure I know a judge or two that I could get to buy into the Walmart bag argument...


I had this exact discussion with my officers on numerous occasions. It was my opinion that a McDonald's bag was a container, and that if the top was rolled shut, it was secured. And if you play through the logic, it makes sense: it therefore requires at least one additional step in order to access the weapon. If the weapon isn't readily accessible, it's not "dangerous" from the standpoint of being concealed, and that's the purported purpose of the statute.

I think this is a proper ruling, based on the text of the statute, and I want to point out that it's in line with the AG's opinion on the topic, though it was non-binding.


For a long time In Virginia when you purchased a new handgun it would be wrapped in paper and tied with a string.

It was NOT considered "concealed" as you carried it out to your car.
You then had to put it in the trunk so it was NOT accessible to the vehicle occupants.
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top