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Posted: 5/4/2022 2:39:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DaveM4P99]
Let's say we win the case.

We all know NY politicians will go nuclear with a ton of crazy new pistol permit restrictions. Mandatory safety training every 2 years, hundreds in fees for renewals every 2 years, banning carry everywhere but basically the woods etc.

But what about NYC?

They've had such a stranglehold on issuing carry permits for over 100 years. Moreso that any other place in NY.

They WILL be forced to start issuing carry permits if this case is won...and it won't even have to be strict scrutiny.

If the court simply says Rockland county can't deny arbitrarily and has to issue for reasons like self defense...NYC is fucked.

Now my question...will us upstate carry permit holders have to apply to get our county permits validated in NYC? And have to jump through all the NYC hoops?

Or will our permits somehow just become valid in NYC? How can the state reconcile not "issuing a permit to carry" valid in NYC when the Supreme Court says they have to issue carry permits?

But I doubt upstate permits will be valid in NYC without another lawsuit.

Link Posted: 5/4/2022 6:17:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Aardvark] [#1]
My guess, and I am not an expert by any means, is the existing system will remain in place and perhaps get even more onerous. The only difference being the state must issue after all the conditions are met (expect more conditions). The court case was not about licensing. That was stated several times in oral arguments. The matter was Shall Issue versus Discretionary Issue. It would take yet another case to unwind many of the "just because" requirements.
Link Posted: 5/5/2022 6:07:29 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aardvark:
My guess, and I am not an expert by any means, is the existing system will remain in place and perhaps get even more onerous. The only difference being the state must issue after all the conditions are met (expect more conditions). The court case was not about licensing. That was stated several times in oral arguments. The matter was Shall Issue versus Discretionary Issue. It would take yet another case to unwind many of the "just because" requirements.
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Yeah. I don’t have a good feeling about this. Joe Mahoney at CNHI is reporting that the Hochul administration is prepared to respond to the decision. There will be more laws and more restrictions.
Link Posted: 5/5/2022 10:01:35 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tahawus:


Yeah. I don’t have a good feeling about this. Joe Mahoney at CNHI is reporting that the Hochul administration is prepared to respond to the decision. There will be more laws and more restrictions.
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Our only hope is they set a "strict scrutiny" standard of review or this will be tied up in the anti-gun New York Federal District Courts until long after I am dead!
Link Posted: 5/5/2022 2:30:19 PM EDT
[#4]
The state will simply ignore the ruling if it goes against them
Link Posted: 5/5/2022 2:55:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DaveM4P99] [#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
The state will simply ignore the ruling if it goes against them
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Well...each county will have to ignore the ruling.

I've actually spoken to some Westchester county officers who deal with the pistol permit department...they are already planning to send out letters to all permit holders saying they can disregard the restrictions printed on the license...instead of issuing all new plastic card permits to everyone. Less headache to do a letter than print up all new permit cards.

I don't know how true this is but it would make sense.
Link Posted: 5/5/2022 6:04:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:


Well...each county will have to ignore the ruling.

I've actually spoken to some Westchester county officers who deal with the pistol permit department...they are already planning to send out letters to all permit holders saying they can disregard the restrictions printed on the license...instead of issuing all new plastic card permits to everyone. Less headache to do a letter than print up all new permit cards.

I don't know how true this is but it would make sense.
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The lines a little blurred, I think. The permit system is buried in state law, the permits themselves are administered at the county level, but the NYSP has dipped its toe into the permit game these last few years with this recertification process that we have to do for permits that used to be lifelong.
So what parts of the whole process are impacted will depend on the breadth of the ruling
Link Posted: 5/8/2022 12:26:08 AM EDT
[#7]
the real question that no one is talking about is, if SCOTUS deems the right to carry/self defense a constitutional right, where does that stand for people that come from out of state. will NY have to honor out of state permits? is this a backdoor for national reciprocity?
Link Posted: 5/8/2022 7:58:21 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tahawus:

Yeah. I don't have a good feeling about this. Joe Mahoney at CNHI is reporting that the Hochul administration is prepared to respond to the decision. There will be more laws and more restrictions.
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Of this I am sure. As I noted, the NYSRPA v Bruen case was not about licensing itself but simply the matter of meeting all of the stated requirements, and paying the various fees, and still being denied "just because". They will most likely add many new onerous licensing requirements to make it even more difficult to get "Shall Issue" and which will require individual challenges as to their constitutionality. As another post has noted, that will go one well after I am gone. It will be interesting to see what happens to everyone who already has licenses that do not meet some newly created list of new requirements. Will everyone have to go back and start over from scratch? Maybe they will simply redo the entire Sullivan Law and make it a state license. The 2023 legislative session is going to be "interesting" indeed.
Link Posted: 5/8/2022 12:02:05 PM EDT
[#9]
I wish I had the same Rose colored glasses as some of you.  I don't see anything good happening in the future.
Link Posted: 5/8/2022 1:38:04 PM EDT
[#10]
I still expect lead ammo bans, microstamping, dealer restrictions/liability before end of Albany sessions the first week of June.
Link Posted: 5/17/2022 5:30:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lockedandloaded] [#11]
On the one hand, NY is running scared as seen in NYSRPA v. City of NY, NY. They instantly repealed the ban on transportation, and filed a Suggestion Of Mootness. Cuomo bureaucrats undermined the SC after the suit was brought. Lets assume their legal tactic will not be forgotten by the current Justices.

On the other hand, Constitutional rule is clear that states remain free to make policy changes in response to public safety and law enforcement needs. Both Gov. Hochul & Mayor Adams have gone on record stating they plan on "carving-out" limitations if NYSRPA v. Bruen is affirmed. Have you ever been ordered for a forensic exam, had a temporary restraining order filed, convicted of a DWI or DV charge, or caught wearing women's lingerie in public? (that last one I made up and it would probably get you a pass under the current legislature). Their conivery knows no limit. One of Adams campaign promises was ditching his security detail if elected, and carry his own gun as is allowed by former NYPD officers, a pledge he soon disregarded. Ironic for its comparability to Bruen.
Link Posted: 5/17/2022 9:21:32 AM EDT
[#12]
Honestly, I think we have at most 10 years before all of this becomes moot. I suspect a game plan for overturning the "MacDonald" ruling of 2010 will be made clear by the summer. "Heller" is probably secure for now so the Federal government will continue to be held to the 2nd Amendment (for the most part).

Link Posted: 5/17/2022 12:31:25 PM EDT
[#13]
Judging by how loud & obnoxious the commie rhetoric is becoming about this, I have a feeling this is going to be BIG, they are worried that their voter base will not be able to rape & pillage NY at will anymore.
Link Posted: 5/18/2022 9:34:13 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tc556guy:
The state will simply ignore the ruling if it goes against them
View Quote
They have a history of doing this.
Link Posted: 5/18/2022 9:40:08 AM EDT
[#15]
https://www.wxxinews.org/capitol-bureau/2022-05-16/hochul-to-propose-closing-loopholes-in-new-yorks-gun-laws

Hochul said Tuesday’s announcement will also include changes that could be made to New York’s laws to address an expected ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court that could strike down New York’s restrictions on carrying a concealed weapon.
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Has anyone seen what that could be?  I haven't seen any word of an announcement yet.  Looks like they were expecting Mondays SCOTUS decision to be the NYSRPA case too since they "pre scheduled" the announcement for Tuesday and now *poof*.
Link Posted: 5/18/2022 10:29:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DaveM4P99] [#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BenC:
https://www.wxxinews.org/capitol-bureau/2022-05-16/hochul-to-propose-closing-loopholes-in-new-yorks-gun-laws



Has anyone seen what that could be?  I haven't seen any word of an announcement yet.  Looks like they were expecting Mondays SCOTUS decision to be the NYSRPA case too since they "pre scheduled" the announcement for Tuesday and now *poof*.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BenC:
https://www.wxxinews.org/capitol-bureau/2022-05-16/hochul-to-propose-closing-loopholes-in-new-yorks-gun-laws

Hochul said Tuesday’s announcement will also include changes that could be made to New York’s laws to address an expected ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court that could strike down New York’s restrictions on carrying a concealed weapon.


Has anyone seen what that could be?  I haven't seen any word of an announcement yet.  Looks like they were expecting Mondays SCOTUS decision to be the NYSRPA case too since they "pre scheduled" the announcement for Tuesday and now *poof*.


No doubt it will be a change to the law to make it shall issue...but also add a shit ton of onerous fees, expensive and difficult renewals, safety classes that aren't offered anywhere, restricted places (everywhere) etc.

My biggest question is...will NY state carry permits be valid in  NYC due to this ruling? Even if it's not strict scrutiny, how does NYC skirt a ruling that says they have to issue carry permits / allow carry? I guess they could try to argue that they will only issue NYC carry permits to NYC residents...after a ton of red tape and restrictions obviously.

But really, I'm not sure how NYC can justify allowing carry permits for their residents and not allow out of city permits too...home rule maybe?

Meaning non city residents would probably have to apply for a NYC permit and jump through the hoops and fees...but they'd have to issue it.
Link Posted: 5/18/2022 11:02:08 PM EDT
[#17]
https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-announces-support-comprehensive-package-combat-rise-domestic-terrorism


Signs Executive Order Requiring State Police to File Extreme Risk Protection Orders with Probable Cause Under NYS Red Flag Law to Prohibit Potentially Dangerous People From Purchasing and Possessing Guns

Proposes Legislation to Close "Other Gun" Loophole by Revising and Widening the Definition of a Firearm to Get Dangerous Guns off the Street

Will Work with the Legislature to Pass Legislation to Strengthen Crime Gun Reporting and Require Microstamping of Semiautomatic Pistols to Help Law Enforcement Better Track Guns Fired During Crimes

Issues Referral to Office of the Attorney General to Investigate Social Media Platforms Used by Buffalo Shooting Suspect to Broadcast, Promote and Facilitate Violence
View Quote


I have no doubt they'll pass a law nixing "others".  If by some miracle they don't that seems pretty clear cut they concede that they're currently legal (IANAL)?

Amazing that they're still trotting out micro stamping.  Also not shocked they want to basically mandate red flagging any and everyone.
Link Posted: 5/20/2022 2:25:25 PM EDT
[#18]
I don't understand the mentality here.

Is this case about having an unrestricted carry permit?

Or is it about needing a "Pistol Permit" just to purchase a handgun?!

Why can't NY get like every other state and allow purchase of handguns over the counter. Then, if a person decides to conceal carry, they go about getting a CCW permit.
Link Posted: 5/20/2022 4:15:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Originally Posted By carlschmarl2:

I don't understand the mentality here.

Is this case about having an unrestricted carry permit?

Or is it about needing a "Pistol Permit" just to purchase a handgun?!

Why can't NY get like every other state and allow purchase of handguns over the counter. Then, if a person decides to conceal carry, they go about getting a CCW permit.
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Clearly the population of nys is too stupid and untrustworthy to be allowed a basic constitutional right.  The streets will run red with blood (more than it currently does).  Besides that would impinge on the rights of criminals to freely conduct their trade.
Link Posted: 5/20/2022 4:17:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By carlschmarl2:

I don't understand the mentality here.

Is this case about having an unrestricted carry permit?

Or is it about needing a "Pistol Permit" just to purchase a handgun?!

Why can't NY get like every other state and allow purchase of handguns over the counter. Then, if a person decides to conceal carry, they go about getting a CCW permit.
View Quote


Specifically this case is asking if it's constitutional for NY to deny someone a carry permit for self defense.

Currently many counties in NY, including NYC, don't accept simple "self defense" as a valid reason to issue a carry permit.

If the decision goes far enough, it may nix the entire pistol permit to simply own scheme. But doubtful.

To get a carry permit in NYC you need to be transporting $10k a day minimum in cash or diamonds, and show bank slips showing transactions in that amount each day.

And you have to give good reason why you can't just hire armed guards instead of carry yourself.

Or you have to show proof that you've had repeated attempts on your life. Death threats aren't good enough. And just one potentially deadly assault on you isn't enough...you have to prove there will definitely be more attempts on your life.

Too many parking tickets in NYC? Denied.
No job? Denied.
Owe taxes or alimony? Denied.

And these rules are codified in NYCs pistol permit laws.
Link Posted: 5/20/2022 5:21:57 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By carlschmarl2:

I don't understand the mentality here.

Is this case about having an unrestricted carry permit?

Or is it about needing a "Pistol Permit" just to purchase a handgun?!

Why can't NY get like every other state and allow purchase of handguns over the counter. Then, if a person decides to conceal carry, they go about getting a CCW permit.
View Quote

Because NYS thinks that its level of gun control is "common sense" that they think every state should be imitating across the nation.
Link Posted: 5/20/2022 6:44:43 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Because NYS thinks that its level of gun control is "common sense" that they think every state should be imitating across the nation.
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Not really.  The Dems are just pandering for the vote of the urban criminals and their families.   And to stick it to you because you vote against them.  It’s about power and money.
Link Posted: 5/21/2022 7:17:57 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Abom:

Not really.  The Dems are just pandering for the vote of the urban criminals and their families.   And to stick it to you because you vote against them.  It’s about power and money.
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They might be pandering when they say it, but they've said many times that they think that other states should emulate the NYS model
Link Posted: 5/21/2022 7:58:33 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By carlschmarl2:

Or is it about needing a "Pistol Permit" just to purchase a handgun?!

Why can't NY get like every other state and allow purchase of handguns over the counter. Then, if a person decides to conceal carry, they go about getting a CCW permit.
View Quote
You have to go back in history to "Big" Tim Sullivan and the reason for "his" law: racism pure and simple. He was an Irish gangster and did not like competition from the Italian and Jewish gangs. The Sullivan Law's purpose was to disarm his opponents and provide a means for him to legally keep his gang armed (who would have had no issue with "references" and "discretionary issue"). There was even an anecdote about how, after the law was passed in 1911, his gang would, during fights, slip handguns into the pockets of rivals who would then get arrested for violating the new law. The other gangs started sewing up their pockets to thwart that from happening.

But as I noted, the law had nothing to do with public safety other than the safety of Sullivan's gang members.
Link Posted: 5/23/2022 9:57:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DaveM4P99] [#25]
Not like I have any hope in Roberts doing the right thing...but I missed this as part of oral arguments...

But Roberts was still skeptical. No matter what the right is, he responded, “it would be surprising to have it depend upon a permit system. You can say that the right is limited in a particular way, just as First Amendment right are limited, but the idea that you need a license to exercise the right, I think, is unusual in the context of the Bill of Rights.

That's pretty damning of the entire NY permit scheme no? Not just the may issue BS.

But again I don't think the ruling will even come close to tossing the ny pistol permitting system...

My question still remains...will the decision make upstate carry permits valid in NYC? Doubtful but I guess possible depending on wording of the opinion.
Link Posted: 5/23/2022 12:00:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:

But Roberts was still skeptical. No matter what the right is, he responded, "it would be surprising to have it depend upon a permit system. You can say that the right is limited in a particular way, just as First Amendment right are limited, but the idea that you need a license to exercise the right, I think, is unusual in the context of the Bill of Rights."

That's pretty damning of the entire NY permit scheme no? Not just the may issue BS.

But again I don't think the ruling will even come close to tossing the ny pistol permitting system...
View Quote
I had forgotten that part of the arguments (I listened to them live). What I did recall was that during the back and forth with the New York Solicitor General, she remarked that licensing in rural areas was easier due to being less populated and that it should be more difficult in populated areas (I would have to reread the transcript). Roberts remarked that the issue of licensing itself was not being addressed at this time. At that point, I figured whatever the ruling is, the Sullivan Law would remain pretty much intact (for now).
Link Posted: 5/23/2022 12:10:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
Not like I have any hope in Roberts doing the right thing...but I missed this as part of oral arguments...

But Roberts was still skeptical. No matter what the right is, he responded, “it would be surprising to have it depend upon a permit system. You can say that the right is limited in a particular way, just as First Amendment right are limited, but the idea that you need a license to exercise the right, I think, is unusual in the context of the Bill of Rights.

That's pretty damning of the entire NY permit scheme no? Not just the may issue BS.

But again I don't think the ruling will even come close to tossing the ny pistol permitting system...

My question still remains...will the decision make upstate carry permits valid in NYC? Doubtful but I guess possible depending on wording of the opinion.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
Not like I have any hope in Roberts doing the right thing...but I missed this as part of oral arguments...

But Roberts was still skeptical. No matter what the right is, he responded, “it would be surprising to have it depend upon a permit system. You can say that the right is limited in a particular way, just as First Amendment right are limited, but the idea that you need a license to exercise the right, I think, is unusual in the context of the Bill of Rights.

That's pretty damning of the entire NY permit scheme no? Not just the may issue BS.

But again I don't think the ruling will even come close to tossing the ny pistol permitting system...

My question still remains...will the decision make upstate carry permits valid in NYC? Doubtful but I guess possible depending on wording of the opinion.


A comment was made on the ScotusBlog live chat:

As we look at what to expect today, there is only one case left from November: New York State Pistol & Rifle v. Bruen. Justices Thomas and Barrett have not yet written for November, so presumably one of them is the author of the opinin.


The open question right now is will Thomas write the decision and will it be his Magnum Opus.
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