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Posted: 1/17/2017 4:30:11 AM EDT
[#1]
I thought it falls under the technical definition of a "Firearm", and that all "Firearms" are illegal in NY. I could be wrong, and I hope I am.
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Posted: 1/17/2017 2:26:50 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought it falls under the technical definition of a "Firearm", and that all "Firearms" are illegal in NY. I could be wrong, and I hope I am. I Hope your wrong too.. I would love to have one of these, not sure why? Maybe because it looks like something this state would ban? 
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Posted: 1/17/2017 3:12:02 PM EDT
[#3]
It would have to be an AOW to go on a pistol permit here.
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Posted: 1/17/2017 3:26:49 PM EDT
[#4]
I don't think the SAFE Act applies to it.
The handgun section of law applies to semi-automatic and ability to accept a detachable magazine, of which it does neither. I think you would be fine putting it on your pistol permit as a regular handgun. The weight limits and all that apply to the above description of a handgun, so no worries there. I don't think it would have to be AOW, because the length is over 26" overall and not "concealable" and they came from the factory as pistols. I could be wrong if I'm missing a relevant section of state law. |
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Posted: 1/17/2017 4:13:35 PM EDT
[#5]
Whoom would I have to talk to as far as LEO goes to verify if this is ok or not. I have a feeling that even if they are allowed most dealers are gonna be weary to order me one unless I have something in writing from the local sheriff? or who ever..
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Posted: 1/17/2017 5:42:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would have to be an AOW to go on a pistol permit here. It was specifically made to not be classified as an AOW, though. |
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Posted: 1/17/2017 8:07:25 PM EDT
[#7]
If I'm not mistaken, it's the same over all length as their regular pistol grip shotgun. Shorter barrel, but a longer grip. So if it really isn't any shorter, why risk ruining your life and losing everything?
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Posted: 1/17/2017 8:23:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I'm not mistaken, it's the same over all length as their regular pistol grip shotgun. Shorter barrel, but a longer grip. So if it really isn't any shorter, why risk ruining your life and losing everything? There is a conversion kit to turn a pistol grip pump into the one in question, so I don't think it's the same OAL. |
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Posted: 1/17/2017 9:27:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a conversion kit to turn a pistol grip pump into the one in question, so I don't think it's the same OAL. It has to come from the factory as a pistol grip shotgun correct? I couldnt just install a 14 in barrel on my 870 and slap this grip on it and call it good correct? I have 4 870s would be cheaper if I could, but my understanding is I can not.. |
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Posted: 1/17/2017 9:29:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I'm not mistaken, it's the same over all length as their regular pistol grip shotgun. Shorter barrel, but a longer grip. So if it really isn't any shorter, why risk ruining your life and losing everything? If I can legally own a shotgun with a 14in barrel in this state, Im going to just because of the fuck you status to our law makers
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Posted: 1/17/2017 10:25:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has to come from the factory as a pistol grip shotgun correct? I couldnt just install a 14 in barrel on my 870 and slap this grip on it and call it good correct? I have 4 870s would be cheaper if I could, but my understanding is I can not.. Correct. It has to have started out as a PG shotgun. As for its legality in NY, I still don't know. It looks fun, therefore I assume it's a no-go. 
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Posted: 1/17/2017 10:33:37 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct. It has to have started out as a PG shotgun. As for its legality in NY, I still don't know. It looks fun, therefore I assume it's a no-go. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It has to come from the factory as a pistol grip shotgun correct? I couldnt just install a 14 in barrel on my 870 and slap this grip on it and call it good correct? I have 4 870s would be cheaper if I could, but my understanding is I can not.. Correct. It has to have started out as a PG shotgun. As for its legality in NY, I still don't know. It looks fun, therefore I assume it's a no-go. Ill find out, Ill walk right into the livingston county sheriffs office and ask if I have to... Just think, if it is indeed a pistol, you can legally have this loaded in a truck, or car, or...... 4wheeler.... vrooom vrooom pew pew pew... ( After you dismount of course ).. |
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Posted: 1/18/2017 1:33:32 AM EDT
[#13]
It's the 20ga I was thinking of.
20ga pistol grip 500C is 27" over all. Shockwave is 26.5" over all. |
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Posted: 1/18/2017 2:01:52 AM EDT
[#14]
Serious question... How would u carry this? Im not talking about taking a stroll to wallmarts with it, or even on your own property, but if u needed to transport it and walk to a location to use it, how would u? You cant open carry a pistol, nor can you conceal and AOW correct? God Im so confused....
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Posted: 1/18/2017 9:25:12 AM EDT
[#15]
I think it would be a "pistol" but who the hell knows
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Posted: 1/18/2017 12:11:49 PM EDT
[#16]
It should be GTG.
It's not an AOW, and not a pistol. At the end of the video, it shows what the 4473 (I know...it doesn't matter what you fill out here) thinks it is... https://youtu.be/PUmFYyML8Bk It's no different that the Black Aces shotgun (minus the mag)... http://www.blackacestactical.com/_p/prd3/3250932101/black-aces-tactical-dt |
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Posted: 1/18/2017 6:07:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It should be GTG. It's not an AOW, and not a pistol. And the Rossi Ranch Hand is not an SBR. Unless you live in NY. |
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Posted: 1/20/2017 4:06:34 PM EDT
[#18]
I can't seem to find a dealer that will even entertain the idea of ordering one... they all say it's a shot gun and the barrel must be 18 inches and give me this
 look when I try and explain to them it's not a shot gun... Anyone in the western NY area know of a dealer that is willing to atleast have an intelligent conversation about this?
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Posted: 1/20/2017 8:53:41 PM EDT
[#19]
If only we had a member here who was also a lawyer that could chime in "Cough" Aimless "Cough"
 ... Money isnt an issue, If I need to pay a lawyer to draw up paperwork, that proves this is not only legal on the fed level, (perhaps a letter from the batf) and then proof that it is indeed legal in NY I will do so...
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Posted: 1/20/2017 11:45:51 PM EDT
[#20]
Reading the laws it looks legal. what would ny define it as?
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Posted: 1/21/2017 12:12:38 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reading the laws it looks legal. what would ny define it as? "Other" if Im reading it correctly.. Went to 2 FFLs to day and both looked at me like I had 3 heads.. I explained to them and stated very clearly "THIS IS NOT A SHOTGUN" and they both said, "derp da der shotguns need a barrel of at least 18 derp de do inches" No shit you moron, I told you the BATF has signed of on this as not being a shotgun hence the paperwork stating this does not need a 200$ tax stamp, nor does it need to be registered as a SBS... One of them even said that all shotguns must be sold with a stock on them he said something about "thank bonny and clide for that one" Derp de derp...the other told me to call the 1-800 safe act hotline... let me put it clearly... If there is an FFL with in 4 hours of livingston county on here reading this, PM me and let's talk money.. (Assuming it is legal to own)
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Posted: 1/21/2017 3:01:19 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 1/21/2017 3:05:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryIm going to try that, or Allstar tactical this week.. Im getting nowhere with fuddshops.. |
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Posted: 1/21/2017 8:00:45 PM EDT
[#24]
"This is not a shotgun" is a tough sell when you're talking about a smooth bore firearm that shoots shotgun shells.
Perhaps knowing where they live, they don't want to risk their livelihood to make a $45 markup and to make you happy. |
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Posted: 1/21/2017 9:23:08 PM EDT
[#25]
Well, the fed's definition of a firearm and NY's definition are very different. Since we already know what the Feds think about this, let's look at penal law 265 definitions section.
3. “Firearm” means (a) any pistol or revolver; ?or (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; ?or (c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; ?or (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; ?or (e) an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; ?the overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique firearm. - See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-265-00.html#sthash.X5YDvVDu.dpuf 12. “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. - See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-265-00.html#sthash.X5YDvVDu.dpuf By these 2 definitions, including section D of the firearm section which mentions guns under 26 inches, this new Mossberg gun should be good to go in NY. It's not designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder and it's over 26". With all of this because it's not a pistol/revolver and it's over 26" and it's doesn't fit the definition of a shotgun or rifle, I can't see how they could make you put it on your pistol permit either. |
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Posted: 1/21/2017 9:54:11 PM EDT
[#26]
But we already know NYS doesn't care about legal definitions (the aforementioned Ranch Hand).
If it stays under the radar, you may be able to get and keep one. If not, get ready for some made of rule forcing you to get rid of it. |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 12:50:16 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Im going to try that, or Allstar tactical this week.. Im getting nowhere with fuddshops.. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Im going to try that, or Allstar tactical this week.. Im getting nowhere with fuddshops.. Keep us posted if either one will order/ transfer you one. I would love to add one to my collection. |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 1:03:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But we already know NYS doesn't care about legal definitions (the aforementioned Ranch Hand). If it stays under the radar, you may be able to get and keep one. If not, get ready for some made of rule forcing you to get rid of it. This is what Im worried about... Im almost wondering if it would be better to construct my own, from a virgin receiver, or pistol grip shotgun, and have a lawyer on retainer
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Posted: 1/22/2017 1:16:17 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"This is not a shotgun" is a tough sell when you're talking about a smooth bore firearm that shoots shotgun shells. Perhaps knowing where they live, they don't want to risk their livelihood to make a $45 markup and to make you happy. "To be fired from the shoulder" as the law states make this not a shotgun. But try explaining that to a cop who doesn't care about guns. |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 3:47:51 PM EDT
[#30]
It was being sold yesterday at the WC gun show. Could have bought it there with a regular NICS check. I think they were asking $495.
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Posted: 1/22/2017 7:26:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was specifically made to not be classified as an AOW, though. Welcome to NYS. An AOW shotgun is a smooth bore pistol and can go on an an NYS pistol permit. You get caught with one of those in NYS and you are going to jail |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 7:39:10 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was being sold yesterday at the WC gun show. Could have bought it there with a regular NICS check. I think they were asking $495. WC? Westchester? Was this in NY? |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 7:40:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Welcome to NYS. An AOW shotgun is a smooth bore pistol and can go on an an NYS pistol permit. You get caught with one of those in NYS and you are going to jail Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It was specifically made to not be classified as an AOW, though. Welcome to NYS. An AOW shotgun is a smooth bore pistol and can go on an an NYS pistol permit. You get caught with one of those in NYS and you are going to jail Confusing post, is confusing... |
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Posted: 1/22/2017 7:52:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Welcome to NYS. An AOW shotgun is a smooth bore pistol and can go on an an NYS pistol permit. You get caught with one of those in NYS and you are going to jail Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It was specifically made to not be classified as an AOW, though. Welcome to NYS. An AOW shotgun is a smooth bore pistol and can go on an an NYS pistol permit. You get caught with one of those in NYS and you are going to jail Don't get me wrong, I see what you're getting at. But it's neither a shotgun, nor an AOW. It meets the federal definition of a "firearm". What that means in NY, I guess none of us know. We can thank NY lawmakers for this confusion. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 11:41:45 PM EDT
[#35]
Everyone keeps saying this will be a pistol, but I'm guessing most will think that way because of the serbu shorty that a few people got.
It's not a shotgun, by NYS definition. Is not an AOW is too long, even by nys definition. NYS doesn't define a pistol. The ranch hand or mares leg, most places will be considered a pistol, but nys ruled it an sbr. This one doesn't seem to fall into any category. It will probably have to be decided what the state wants to classify it as, but if anyone can argue it early, it may get ruled as OK. Right now it meets all the same criteria as any mossberg pistol grip shotgun, except it has a shorter barrel, but I'm not sure how the pgo shotguns transfer here in NY, they should be an other. People have been making this from parts for years while mossberg researched the laws about making it commercially. Seems they finally decided it was safe and wanted in on the action. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:50:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't seem to find a dealer that will even entertain the idea of ordering one... they all say it's a shot gun and the barrel must be 18 inches and give me this look when I try and explain to them it's not a shot gun... Anyone in the western NY area know of a dealer that is willing to atleast have an intelligent conversation about this? |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:11:15 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't get me wrong, I see what you're getting at. But it's neither a shotgun, nor an AOW. It meets the federal definition of a "firearm". What that means in NY, I guess none of us know. We can thank NY lawmakers for this confusion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It was specifically made to not be classified as an AOW, though. Welcome to NYS. An AOW shotgun is a smooth bore pistol and can go on an an NYS pistol permit. You get caught with one of those in NYS and you are going to jail Don't get me wrong, I see what you're getting at. But it's neither a shotgun, nor an AOW. It meets the federal definition of a "firearm". What that means in NY, I guess none of us know. We can thank NY lawmakers for this confusion. Assuming it transfers as "other", if you could find an FFL that would transfer it to you as a pistol and head down to the permit office to get it added you may have a chance, having not on a pistol permit would be asking for trouble. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:11:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Assuming it transfers as "other", if you could find an FFL that would transfer it to you as a pistol and head down to the permit office to get it added you may have a chance, having not on a pistol permit would be asking for trouble. I do have a permit, that's not an issue.. Im having trouble finding the time to run around the these various gun dealers I much prefer to have this conversation in person than over the phone. In the meantime, I would like to compile, and gather some various documents that I can show to an FFL that may help.. Example, Letters from the ATF stating this is a Non NFA weapon (which I have, not addressed to me, but they are available on one of that shockwaves websites) The Federal definition of a shotgun, and NYS Definition of a shotgun, to start.. Is there anything else I should consider? Perhaps NYS laws on Firearms, AOWs and smooth bore pistols? Something to show this weapon can not be classified as a shotgun.. This was the biggest hangup I have had thus far, every dealer I talked to said this fires shot shells, so shotgun.... Any links to laws, or defenitions would be helpful.. Im looking for things that are official, (state/fed letter heads, or emblems, something) ot copied and pasted or quoted, as these papers will remain with me in the event I need to prove down the road this gun is legal to own.. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:35:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, the fed's definition of a firearm and NY's definition are very different. Since we already know what the Feds think about this, let's look at penal law 265 definitions section. 3. “Firearm” means (a) any pistol or revolver; ?or (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; ?or (c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; ?or (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; ?or (e) an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; ?the overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique firearm. - See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-265-00.html#sthash.X5YDvVDu.dpuf 12. “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. - See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-265-00.html#sthash.X5YDvVDu.dpuf By these 2 definitions, including section D of the firearm section which mentions guns under 26 inches, this new Mossberg gun should be good to go in NY. It's not designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder and it's over 26". With all of this because it's not a pistol/revolver and it's over 26" and it's doesn't fit the definition of a shotgun or rifle, I can't see how they could make you put it on your pistol permit either. How Did I miss post?? I just spent an hour or so digging around and found this quote on google in my own thread lol... But this is exactly what Im looking for.. Clearly shows that this is not a shotgun, so its not a firearm... |
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Posted: 1/28/2017 1:01:39 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How Did I miss post?? I just spent an hour or so digging around and found this quote on google in my own thread lol... But this is exactly what Im looking for.. Clearly shows that this is not a shotgun, so its not a firearm... |
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Posted: 1/28/2017 2:34:10 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
:) Just so you're clear with whomever you talk to FFL wise, remember that it doesn't meet the definition of a "firearm" as far as NY's concerned, but it DOES meet the definition of a firearm by federal law. The only way this affects you is that just like if you're transferring a pistol grip only shotgun with an 18" barrel, you must be over 18. So it's important to mention "NY's definition of a firearm" when saying that to the FFL because they'd probably balk if you told him just plainly "it's not a firearm". I have some stuff printed out that explains this.. Im still trying to find something that looks a little more convincing than just a printout of Article 265 NY Penal law.. but, will see.. And like you pointed out, it is a firearm by fed standards, so there will be confusion.. |
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Posted: 1/31/2017 3:59:24 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WC? Westchester? Was this in NY? Yes, Sir. Westchester County Center. The sign said "NYS SAFE legal". |
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Posted: 1/31/2017 8:12:41 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, Sir. Westchester County Center. The sign said "NYS SAFE legal". Excellent.... |
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Posted: 1/31/2017 10:40:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, Sir. Westchester County Center. The sign said "NYS SAFE legal". Until further notice |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 7:38:28 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
:) Just so you're clear with whomever you talk to FFL wise, remember that it doesn't meet the definition of a "firearm" as far as NY's concerned, but it DOES meet the definition of a firearm by federal law. The only way this affects you is that just like if you're transferring a pistol grip only shotgun with an 18" barrel, you must be over 18. So it's important to mention "NY's definition of a firearm" when saying that to the FFL because they'd probably balk if you told him just plainly "it's not a firearm". This is NYS definiton of a Firearm 3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e) an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique firearm. This is NYS definition of a Shotgun 12. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. It becomes a firearm if the weapon is made from a shotgun.. (red) This is what confuses me, the blue... Is word AND implying that it must meet both of those requirements, shoulder fired/shotshell, or with either of them qualify it as a shotgun.... The one word could land me a felony charge for possession of a firearm depending on how its read.. |
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Posted: 2/12/2017 10:26:53 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is NYS definiton of a Firearm 3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e) an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique firearm. This is NYS definition of a Shotgun 12. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. It becomes a firearm if the weapon is made from a shotgun.. (red) This is what confuses me, the blue... Is word AND implying that it must meet both of those requirements, shoulder fired/shotshell, or with either of them qualify it as a shotgun.... The one word could land me a felony charge for possession of a firearm depending on how its read.. Red. It is not a shotgun Blue. It was not designed yo be fired from the shoulder. Should be gtg. Not sure i am comfortable transfering it to anyone but me......:) |
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Posted: 2/15/2017 3:45:20 PM EDT
[#47]
What the laws in NY actually say is less of a determining factor whether you'll spend time in jail or not, than what the judges think the law means.
Brake vs. Break. Obvious mistake in the law, will still get you in trouble. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 6:08:52 PM EDT
[#48]
The Firing Pin in Bergen has one in stock for sale.
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Posted: 3/16/2017 6:36:25 PM EDT
[#49]
To whom though would be the question. My local gun shop has Sig MPX's and silencers behind the glass. They won't sell me any of it though.
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Posted: 3/16/2017 8:03:35 PM EDT
[#50]
They posted a price on Facebook and said you only have to be 21.
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