All,

Before 2005 there was a big uproar in regard to letting citizens carry concealed weapons on their persons. Many of you were very vocal in regard to getting this done and believed it to be a second amendment right for us all. Even today I still thank you all for the amount of pressure that was put on to our politicians so that this can happen.

However in today's age, even though this is now a stated right for us all, we still have many issues when it comes to CCW carry. I think we can agree that there are many instructors in the state of Minnesota that are making my money calling themselves concealed carry permit instructors, but have horseshit training. There are also many Minnesota citizens carrying around firearms in their purses, backpacks, briefcases,under their suits etc etc. And I think we can agree that many of those people are more liabilities than they are Protectors of not only themselves but General Society.

It appears as though every week or month there's some kind of debate in regard to what politicians are doing to take away gun rights, yet for some reason in a different category here in ar15 a few gentlemen are looking for a reputable concealed carry permit trainer but we cannot seem to point out more than just one two or three individuals who have good training.

Like many of you, I think I can honestly say that I have some good firearms training experience in the real world and in training atmospheres. However, I do not have training credentials nor am I seeking to get any. On a side note maybe I should. And I know for a fact having met some of you different locations, that they're many of you that also has some very good, if not better than myself, Firearms mechanics experience.

Finally the point to all of this: at what point do we begin to get on those who are carrying around Firearms instead of bitching and complaining about our politicians? How do we begin to call out those bad trainers so that those people can get the hell out of the way and stop handing out permits like candy? I would love to see the qualifications for carrying a concealed weapon permit at least get to the level of a Law Enforcement Training level.

I Know some of your going to say that there are many law enforcement professionals that have no business carrying a gun, and I would agree with you. However at least there is a standard that must be met and by way of State statutes must be met yearly. How many times a year do our concealed carry permit holders have to qualify with their firearms that they've gotten from their candy pushing Firearms instructors?

We cannot keep bitching about politicians and their mindsets when we give them plenty of excuses to use when it comes to trying to take away privileges. Prime example: I have a neighbor that has a CCW permit and carries a firearm in his car that he hasn't shot in a year.

He carries it everyday and I have invited that individual to come shooting with me every month for the past 12 months and have documented each time I have asked him because I'm a loser like that. And he continues to tell me that he's busy. This individual is looking forward to recert with me next year because our date will have come to expiration and of course I will not let mine expire. I hate to say it but I'm waiting for the day that he actually pulls that thing out and accidentally shoots himself in the leg and then there will be another discussion as to why Firearms shouldn't be allowed in society.

I have no idea who gave him his certification to go get his permit from the state but I know that person should be fired immediately.   I think we can all agree that the only way to stay proficient in the use of a firearm is to practice with that thing on a regular basis even if it is dry practice. I think we can also agree that there are many, if not thousands of individuals with permits that haven't dry practiced with their firearm since they got their permit if at all.

Enough crying about politics. I'm sorry but voting only go so far the actions after the vote cannot be determined by way of loud talk and chanting. Time to start calling people out that should not be: 1 carrying firearms and 2.to training others.

Can't wait to hear your thoughts!

( my apologies for grammatical errors, this is being voice written as I sit in the Target Sports parking lot in Rogers.)

OP needs needs free speech training because he obviously can't handle it without being qualified through legal mandate.

Or

OP is a concern troll.

Either way, gigantic fail.

There are shit instructors, went to one.

I will be paying much more money for my next renewal to avoid the issue.

Freedom is scary.

Close. Freedom is dangerous. It’s dangerous because it comes with all the responsibilities.

OP, I get your plight, but the instructors jump through the state mandated hoop and then get their students to do the same. There is a whole lot wrong with that model, but it is what it is for now. I’d like to see constitutional carry. Get rid of all these issues and just deal with the dangerous liberty.

We don’t need the government involved in free citizens carrying firearms to begin with.  Plenty of states do not require a permit to carry one, nor should they.  If someone commits a crime or negligently kills/injures someone due to improper use of a firearm, we already have plenty of laws to handle that.

Why? One should not require a permit from the government to exercise a constitutional right. When it comes to a PTC I look for the cheapest, quickest, least hassle class I can find. I don't care one bit what the instructor knows or what the shooting entails as long as I can get in and out of the class asafp, it's a rubber f$%#ing stamp nothing more.

Ponder this…….
Look up the word Certified for our purposes
This will suffice.
“Basically, it means a party has completed the steps required to receive a particular designation by some governing body”.  As pointed out above the PTC instructors have jumped through the hoops to hold that designation.
Here are the hoops.
Minnesota Statutes, section 624.714, subd. 2a requires permit to carry applicants to present evidence of having received from a certified instructor training in the safe use of a handgun within one year of an original application or renewal.
Frequently Asked Questions regarding applying to become an organization authorized to certify instructors

Certified Firearms Instruction
Organization Requirements
To qualify for Department of Public Safety approval as an organization authorized to certify instructors, the organization or government agency must meet, maintain and submit the following items:
Certificate of Good Standing from the Minnesota Secretary of State’s Office issued within 60 days of application (government entities excluded)
Lesson plan for instructor and student courses that demonstrate that the successful candidates will be able to teach and have received the basic requirements for applicants for permits to carry required by Minnesota Statutes section 624.714, subd. 2a
Course syllabus, goals, objectives and outlines for instructor and student courses that demonstrate that the successful candidates will be able to teach and have received the basic requirements for applicants for permits to carry required by Minnesota Statutes 624.714, subd. 2a
Copy of course of fire/qualification to be utilized in both instructor and student courses
Copy of certificate to be issued by organization to instructors and students
Copy of current instructor credentials of primary contact or owner
Written description of how the organization will maintain instructor and student records
Written description of how organization will maintain proficiency of instruction (including legal updates) and ensure the instructional practices and integrity of instructors
Organizations should use this form: Business Organization Application for Certification of Firearms Instructors. Organizations must be approved by the Department of Public Safety every five years.  
Business Organizations Approved to Train Instructors *** - enter an address or zip code for the most accurate results.

Instructor Requirements
Minnesota Statutes, section 624.714, subd. 2a (d) provides that approved organizations and government entities may grant instructor certificates to individuals who have been certified within the last five years in accordance with Department of Public Safety standards and have received training in a course or courses that at a minimum contained:
Instruction in the fundamentals of pistol use including mechanical knowledge of handguns and safe practices in shooting, loading, unloading, clearing firearm malfunctions, safe storage and firearm care
Successful completion of an actual shooting qualification exercise and the ability to evaluate shooting proficiency and safe weapon skills of students in a practical firearm shooting exercise
Instruction in the legal aspects of pistol possession, carry, and use, including self-defense and the restrictions on the use of deadly force. This should also include the psychological and physiological effects of a violent threat encounter and simple weapon retention techniques
Instruction on how to maintain records of students seeking a permit to carry a firearm

Now, nowhere does it define what the shooting proficiency test parameters are!  Nor does define how long the course should take or how it is to be administered.  
Now, we have people that are actual educators vs instructors.  If you explore the differences between instructors and educators you will be enlightened.  Most of the PTC Instructors are just regurgitating what they were informed of.  They are not able to explain the why and how….to them it is “Cuz the book says so”.   They are not for the most part of aware of the challenges of the adult learner versus a child’s needs.
Look at Merriam Webster’s definition of Teach.
Definition of teach
transitive verb
1a: to cause to know something taught them a trade
b: to cause to know how is teaching me to drive
c: to accustom to some action or attitude teach students to think for themselves
d: to cause to know the disagreeable consequences of some action I'll teach you to come home late
2: to guide the studies of
3: to impart the knowledge of teach algebra
4a: to instruct by precept, example, or experience
b: to make known and accepted experience teaches us our limitations
5: to conduct instruction regularly in teach school

In the end while yes there probably should not be a need for a PTC, but rather the right is practiced by citizens following our laws on the books.
But if you have every witnessed some of the instructors who would “herd” their students into the range portion of the test into say Burnsville Pistol Range on Sunday…..  It was hilarious…..students not follow directions…..I know one Sunday Sue let one of the “well known” and “ now departed soul” instructors have it point blank!  TOO FUNNY!
I know for 100% certainty that 96% or of the PTC holders are not practicing their skills.  And, if they are well…….All you have to do go look at any indoor range in the metro……
Do you have to shoot like a NAVY SEAL, heck no.  But you should be able to hit the target with consistency.
Many people will never realize that their default setting is what they practiced…and if they did not practice….it will be a cluster in motion when they are challenged! Because they assume, they will rise to the occasion.
There is a situation where IRC two Los Angeles Police officers died in a shoot out because their practice of reloading their revolvers was to empty the casings into the their hand then pocket the brass and then reload the gun….  You default to the level of training and skills that are practiced.
It would be great of the PTC class a “true” validation of person’s skills. But it was never meant to be that.
I remember the initial ND PTC class was 10 Question Open Book true false written test.  And, shooting part was at 21 feet with B-27 Target and 7 of the 10 shots fired had to hit within the scoring rings.  And, you had to show the instructor you cold reload the fire arm you tested with.

Because the yahoos that were handing weapons for the first time at that class were scary as fuck to be around. Waiving loaded weapons around and stupid shit like that. The instructor is apparently used to this, he actually wears a bullet resistant vest during range time.

I was talking to him about it, since I obviously handle myself fine around firearms. He said that at almost every class, someone points a loaded weapon straight at him, finger on trigger.

Going to a more expensive, actual training orientated class should put me around experienced (and hopefully safer) shooters.

My very first PTC instructor was the one waiving a loaded snubby 357 at everybody in class. After he did that, it was "oops, forgot to unload it"  



ETA: Both instructors were the very cheapest I could find, as I only wanted a piece of paper out of the deal. I've learned my lesson, I'd like to not be scared shitless around such morons in the future.

Are you God, Is your lecture over.

It originated from the Newhall Incident, but apparently never happened.

https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/5504658-Setting-the-record-straight-on-the-Newhall-Incident/

You're right OP! Our Permit to Carry system in this state is broken. I've thought that every time I've had to go and renew my permit.
We should change MN's permit to carry system and the only way to do that is to get rid of the requirement to have a permit.

Its a Right (not a privilege as you stated) to Keep and Bear arms.
No permit, nor tax, nor special status should be required to exercise that Right anywhere in the USA.

Ditto

I dont need some tactical Tom trying to teach me how to "operate" and charging me for it

These two posts.

To be honest I hate going to ranges because of the carelessness that I see there. I don't want to be ventilated because some dumb ass doesn't know what he's doing. I believe people have the right to carry although I've seen plenty that I wish they wouldn't.

I'm giving this rant a 2 out of 10.  Now I'm going to head out to work before I change my mind and downgrade it to a 1.

I'm right there with you. I don't want to shut them down, everybody has to start somewhere, but I wish they would get better than a rubber stamp instructor, and I want no part in that clown show.

You can't teach years of growing up with guns in a half-day course with 20+ people. Even if only a handful need the extra hand holding. MN requires a permit. Most of us just want the rubber stamp for our renewal. Yes, it'd be nice if instructors could segregate the first timers from the renewals, but it probably isn't economical for them, and I really don't want the state to start adding extra requirements for anyone to get their permit for the first time.

I'd rather not try to discover problems that aren't there.  If people were regularly dying from careless use of CCW firearms, than as a community we would have some incentive to get in front of the problem before the nanny state legislators come up with a solution.

If that's not happening, we should leave well enough alone.

This. "Shall not be infringed" is pretty clear. And a phrase not found in other amendments. I think our founding fathers held weapons ownership in rather high regard.

This.

Though many seemed to think it was worthy of legitimate comment.

I stand by my initial response.