User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
USA
|
Posted: 8/15/2023 3:46:35 PM EDT
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/15/2023 10:17:09 PM EDT
[#1]
What’s it been, 3 years now?
|
|
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 8/16/2023 4:20:19 PM EDT
[#2]
About time!!! You know your country is turning third-world when the gubberment just gives up on repairing a very popular, well-used road. I figured one of the Democrat politicians got a boat and just didn't want so many rednecks at Roosevelt Lake.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/16/2023 9:51:24 PM EDT
[#3]
As much as I'd like to see it open again, I'm not holding my breath.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/17/2023 10:17:03 PM EDT
[#4]
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who figured that they kept it closed on purpose.
Now they can start slow walking the process. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/17/2023 10:33:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bullet_: I'm glad that I'm not the only one who figured that they kept it closed on purpose. Now they can start slow walking the process. And after years of study, millions of dollars spent, they will come to the conclusion that the cost-to-benifit ratio is not good enough and leave it as-is. If you think about it, the only thing between Tortilla Flat and Roosevelt is Apache Lake Marina. Having been employed by a marina (Saguaro Lake) with ties to Canyon Lake, for the last 20 years, there is no way Apache Lake Marina can make enough $$ to justify the dollars spent. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/17/2023 11:40:37 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KB7DX: And after years of study, millions of dollars spent, they will come to the conclusion that the cost-to-benifit ratio is not good enough and leave it as-is. If you think about it, the only thing between Tortilla Flat and Roosevelt is Apache Lake Marina. Having been employed by a marina (Saguaro Lake) with ties to Canyon Lake, for the last 20 years, there is no way Apache Lake Marina can make enough $$ to justify the dollars spent. They will then close the marina to the general public for environmental reasons. Leaving it accessible only for approved special reasons and VIPs. |
|
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 8/18/2023 8:57:08 AM EDT
[#7]
I heard a couple of weeks ago that the Apache Lake Marina had already gone out of business.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/18/2023 10:42:40 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By azcheesehead: I heard a couple of weeks ago that the Apache Lake Marina had already gone out of business. It changed ownership last year but it is still open. Apache Lake Marina |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2023 9:35:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Here's what ADOT has proposed for the Apache Trail (RT88)
ADOT Proposals There's a lot to digest but the gist of it is that there are four options. Briefly, they range from - remove the boulders, grade the road and add some concrete barriers and some reflectors and call it good, to - widen the road and modernize it with pavement and proper guardrails in addition to re-working the drainage system and shoring up some of the canyon walls. Of course, the costs associated with the proposals range from 3-ish million to 100+ million depending on what they want to do. From all the reading I've done today, ADOT and the USFS have been playing "hot potato" with this issue, passing the "buck" back and forth with no progress. 
|
|
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 8/22/2023 1:23:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: pbystreetgang]
[#10]
Here's a description of the meeting by from someone who was there, Kyle, who posted it to an Arizona History Facebook group. There's a link to the ADOT comment web site at the bottom.
Kyle, if you are on here hope you don't mind my reposting your description. Here's my[Kyle's] summary of the ADOT meeting about reopening the Apache Trail from last Wednesday. If you want the trail opened, you've 25 days to voice your concerns to ADOT otherwise it will be closed for another 5 years at least. Sorry its long, I tried to recap everything that was discussed. Arizonans are not happy. Admin please remove if not allowed I attended Arizona Department of Transportation's (ADOT) public hearing on repairing and reopening the historic Apache Trail last Wednesday. Arizonans came out in force to show their support and want for getting this historic road opened. And let me tell you, what a bureaucratic shit show it was. Sorry its long, but this was absolutely insane and The People need to step up and fight this or it will be another 5 years at least before the Apache Trail is opened. Below is a recap after the history tidbit. The Apache Trail, built between 1903 - 1905 was a testament to extreme engineering and work, that created a road going from Apache Junction (phx) to Roosevelt Lake for the construction of Roosevelt Dam. In 2019 a severe storm caused a rockslide and knocked out a 2 mile stretch of road and caused 7 miles to need some other lesser repairs. Fast forward to 2023, ADOT still has the road closed and will still be closed for the foreseeable future, 3-5 years. They have moved the goal post multiple times, and keep blowing timelines they set themselves. Over the last 2 years they have been conducting "environmental studies" on the best plan of action to rebuild the road, after waiting 2 years for vegetation to regrow from the fire. You might think, "cool, so they got the environmental study done so now they can start building the road!" WRONG. As the owner of Tortilla Flat Saloon said so eloquently, "this hearing is about reporting on a study, for a proposal for a recommendation, for another study, that will need to be reviewed, for a final building recommendation proposal." Basically, ADOT spent these last 2 years coming up with 3 different options for repairing the road and seeing what animals would impacted by repairing a road that already exists. These 3 options rise exponentially in cost, $3m, $33m, $110m, but each tier has more survivability to storms, and construction ranges from dirt, to semi paved (chipseal), to full paved. Let it be known that the vast majority of Arizonans attending want the road to go back exactly how it was, dirt. So it stays in its historical state and deters overcrowding. But wait! It turns to even more a bureaucratic nightmare! ADOT's preferred recommendation is what they call the "Hybrid Proposal" at $33m and had the road semi-paved with ‘chipseal’ along with a lot of other repairs, safety features, and storm ‘hardening’ so it can hand more intense storms. In one slide defending why they need to storm harden the road, they said that storms will get between 55% - 83% more intense in the next few decades. I asked about where they came up with these numbers, because saying that storms are going to get almost double as intense as they are now, is a bold statement. So they had the weather analysts who modeled and came up with these numbers come up to answer me. Basically he said that they used historical storm data in the last century or so to predict that storms are going to get way more intense. I don’t believe this at all, and neither did my fellow Arizonans around me. Everyone was scoffing and joking at this data for pushing climate change. Not too mention you can almost always manipulate data so it supports what you want to do. We see this all the time nowadays. That just sounded like magic numbers to me. But here's the kicker, they have no funding to do any of this. So they are asking for Federal grants for the construction, which money from the feds always comes with strings and this is no different. There has to be another 2 year environmental study done on how the recommended proposal to rebuild the already existing road will impact animals and the land. And its not like they are picking the cheapest and quickest proposal. The People went into a fit when this got brought up. We want this road fixed ASAP, its an iconic and cherished place of the American West. And it's already been twice as long as it took to build the entire road in the first place back in the 1900s and almost nothing has been done, and slated to take another 5 years. How is this acceptable? I even asked ADOT this question, and everyone attending started laughing at what a joke this is. No wonder we can't build anything anymore in America. Too much red tape and hoops to jump through by the Federal Government. Even one of the head ADOT people admitted that it was "red tape and hoops" when I asked him. So basically ADOT wants to go with an expensive construction route, with funds they don't have, so they will have to ask the Feds for money, which will then have to jump through hoops and years of time, all for a construction option The People don't even want. It's a bureaucratic nightmare. The owner of Tortilla Flat Saloon brought up some shady financials too. ADOT has an annual budget for maintenance on each highway. He asked what preventative maintenance ADOT did prior to 2019 so a catastrophic landslide and flooding wouldn’t happen? ADOT couldn’t answer. So where has this maintenance and operation money gone in the 4 years that this has been closed? It certainly hasn't been spent on the repairing the road. No ADOT person could answer the question directly, they just said it was reallocated somewhere else. But where? If we need $3m for the cheapest option, those missing funds would sure come in handy. Especially so we don't have to go ask big Brother for some money and just through their lengthy hoops. Another point the owner of Tortilla Flat Saloon brought up was ADOT said that they would release their preliminary environmental report to the public in the Spring of 2023. They did not. But they are basing their recommendation off that report, that they won’t release to the public until AFTER the public input deadline. There is zero transparency in that and definitely throws a big red flag up since we can’t see the data they used to base their decisions off of. But they wouldn't even need to do any of this if they went with the simple plan of just clearing the rocks from the road and doing as minimal repairs as possible to get in a functional state. There was massive support by The People to do this. I said, "I'll go grab a shovel and pickaxe, and I'm sure my fellow Arizonans would join me to get this done and open." And the crowd cheered and clapped in thunderous support of that, showing there's so many Arizonans that want this opened as soon as possible, and are willing to do it themselves instead of waiting years on the gov to complete a few miles of road repair. I had multiple people come up to me after the hearing saying that we should just go get bulldozers and do it ourselves. The People are willing! One old veteran had the most ingenious idea, reach out to the Army Corp of Engineers to see if they could do this as a training exercise. It would be free to the state and done in a week. So simple. Which I think is absolutely brilliant and should be pursued. Another lady came up to me showing that Arizona has $3m funds for historic roads and places in some special program. So that's all we need! But the state doesn't want some quick and simple construction. They want this over engineered and a costly option The People don't even want. Another point asked was, if ADOT was going to do this construction, they need it passable. So why not open it just to off-roaders who can handle this terrain no problem, while they are repairing the road? It doesn’t have to be perfect, we just want to be able to use it as soon as possible. Someone also brought up that the AZ Legislator just passed HR1607 which will create 2 new power generating reservoirs on the Roosevelt side of the Apache Trail, which they will need a road for construction, so why not just rebuild the road using those funds? Would be poetic irony to rebuild the Apache Trail for constructing 2 new dams and reservoirs. ADOT is trying to push their recommended $33m, 5 year option, and pretty much worded all their questionnaires and surveys just about that, and no other option. They really want that one. The People do not. The fact that nothing has happened in 4 years, and they want another 5 years to go is embarrassing and pathetic. It took 2 years to build the entire thing from 1903-1905, and here we are living in the future, where construction takes 10x as long as it did over a century ago. The road being closed has already costs businesses along the Trail a lot of financial hardship, Apache Lake Marina & Resort is no stranger to this. The road being closed has significantly impacted Apache Lake Marina & Resort's entire business and operation since it now takes about 3 hours to get there from the valley, and there is no end in sight. ADOT kept repeating, “We are at Stage 1, of 5.” If Arizonans don’t speak up, this road will be closed for another 5 years AT LEAST. September 15th is the deadline to voice your concerns, questions, and comments which can be done in the following ways: Online comment form: azdot.gov/SR88apachetrail Email: [email protected] Phone (480) 967-1343 Mail: SR 88 Study c/o Marshall Hayes, Logan Simpson, 51 West Third St, Suite 450, Tempe, AZ 85281 There is also a prerecorded version of this meeting presentation at https://azdot.gov/SR88apachetrail FOX 10 Phoenix 4-Wheel & Off-Road Magazine Pic of the room and crowd https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=6654897251223665&set=pcb.6654907647889292 ADOT preferred hybrid alternative: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=6654898027890254&set=pcb.6654907647889292 Graphic of the preferred hybrid alternative https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=6654900524556671&set=pcb.6654907647889292 Alternative 3 https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=6654898657890191&set=pcb.6654907647889292 Alternative 2 https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=6654899154556808&set=pcb.6654907647889292 Next Steps / Process https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=6654899521223438&set=pcb.6654907647889292 |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/22/2023 2:37:04 PM EDT
[#11]
Personally I like the idea of returning the road to it's original state.
Clear the rocks, grade the road and replace any "guard rails" as they were before the storm. Part of the mystique of the Apache Trail was the "danger" involved in traversing this route. I've taken many out of state visitors on "the loop" and all have enjoyed it despite the "danger". " So why not open it just to off-roaders who can handle this terrain no problem, while they are repairing the road? " As far as letting OHV's on the road, state law does not allow OHV's on a state route but this law is mostly overlooked on the Apache Trail which I'm OK with. I'm still not going to hold my breath. 
|
|
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 8/22/2023 11:34:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Rebuild the road just as it was...dirt. Add all the guard rails those ADOT pussies want.
Environmental studies are idiotic, money-wasting, bureaucratic bullshit. Has there been a road there since the early 1900's? Yes. Great, environmental impact study complete. The road has been there for 120 year....so rebuild it. We have the technology. The funny thing is, that if ADOT allowed it, I'm sure all the local 4-wheeler groups could crowd source the funding to get it done...and I'm sure they'd spend a minute fraction of the ADOT proposed costs....and it would be fixed in less than a month. No pavement of any type...just graded dirt. It's not rocket surgery. Has anyone driven/walked up there to take photos of the current damage? |
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 10/8/2023 5:56:16 PM EDT
[#13]
This isn't much different from Bushnell Tanks. It used to be one of the coolest and closest-to-the-Valley areas to recreate. The area was closed down because of a fire that happened like, what, 18 years ago?! It's still closed to motor vehicles.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/24/2024 6:49:20 PM EDT
[#14]
Looks like they (ADOT and the other alphabet agencies) have settled
on a plan. It will be a version of "Option 2" which is basically clearing and re-grading the road, widening the road to 15ft as a minimum, chip sealing, replacing/adding guardrail, fixing/updating the bridges and improving the drainage among other things. Report can be found here. ADOT page. Expected cost is 33 million'ish. But we all know how that goes.
|
|
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 1/24/2024 10:33:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AT-ST83]
[#15]
At least they aren't paving it completely through. I can't imagine the amount of motorcycle accidents that would occur within the first month. People would die waiting for an ambulance to arrive.
I wish they weren't going to eve chip seal it....leave it as graded dirt. As I said months ago; they could have this fixed for a fraction of the cost years ago, if they allowed local 4x4 clubs to crowd fund it. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
