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Posted: 8/6/2021 10:07:13 PM EDT
This has probably been asked and answered a million times prior.  Almost all of our gun laws are confusing but I have a question and would appreciate your input on one situation in particular.  My question is about the overall length of a registered assault weapon.

I've been doing this for a while and registered some "assault weapons" way back in 1999/2000.  So essentially anything goes as long as I don't violate Federal laws.  

Under Federal law the overall length has to be 26" minimum.  If it's under 26" it has to be registered under NFA.  Federal law states that overall length is measured from the muzzle of the barrel (not the detachable muzzle device) to the end of the stock with the stock open/extended.  

Under California law the overall length has to be 30" minimum.  If it's under 30" it has to be registered as a California AW.  California law states that overall length is measured from the muzzle of the barrel (not the detachable muzzle device) to the butt end with the stock collapsed.

So if my rifle is registered as a CA RAW can my overall length be shorter than 26" with the stock collapsed?  With the stock open it's not in violation of Federal laws.  But I thought I'd better get some else's opinion because CA is asshoe so...
Link Posted: 8/6/2021 10:19:15 PM EDT
Yeah, California SBR laws say 26" in shortest possible configuration.  So in this case, stock fully collapsed.  Under this length makes it an SBR.

DOJ has issued regulations over the last few years where they now interpret that to mean with any removable muzzle device removed, even though there is zero basis for this in the statute, but like the ATF, they have started making up their own crap and prosecuting people for violating it.

Whether one goes by DOJ's edict or not, it is possible for a rifle to be an SBR under CA laws but not under Federal laws.  Unless your RAW qualifies as C&R by age (I think only Colt SP1s and the like qualify), that's a problem (a C&R SBR requires no special permits, but it is considered a concealable weapon like a handgun, and subject to handgun laws for carry, transportation, etc.).

If the receiver was originally listed on the form as a handgun, or as a receiver and built as a handgun legally, and you replace the stock with a brace (most are not considered stocks by DOJ), you can convert it into a "long gun, other" or a "handgun" (or an AOW if you go through the Federal process and the configuration qualifies) and avoid the SBR issues.  AOWs, it should be noted, are exempt from CA SBR laws.  However, I'm not sure such a change is allowed, whether by statute or by DOJ doing its own thing, on a RAW registered as a rifle.
Link Posted: 8/6/2021 11:18:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2021 11:25:15 PM EDT by operatorerror]
So putting a Law folder on an AR15 with a 16" barrel would create a CA SBR...

Damn, I sure am glad I asked before I put it together because I would never violate the law!  Nope.  Never.

If my measurements are correct it would be 25 3/8" overall with the stock folded.  I could permanently attach a 5/8" muzzle device, permanently attach the flash hider or get a 16 5/8" or longer barrel. Maybe an 18" upper is the way to go.  

LOL California is silly.

Thanks for the info!

eta When I bought my Tavor it was legal.  Then they changed the overall length measurement rules which, through no fault of my own, made my Tavor an "assault weapon" which necessitated the permanent attachment of the brake.  I wonder how many people have illegally configured weapons?  I'm betting there are lots of "illegal" weapons that people have no idea that they are breaking the laws.
Link Posted: 8/6/2021 11:40:47 PM EDT
The rule change was done illegally, but DOJ doesn't care, anymore.  Under the statute, the muzzle device should be included for both AW and SBR purposes as a part of the shortest possible configuration.  

And yeah, the gun has to be a "long gun other", "handgun" (including AOW), or be considered C&R by age under California rules to avoid being treated as an SBR with that folded length.  What gets you is that it is possible to fire a shot.  If it were not possible, then you wouldn't have an issue, because the gun needs to be fireable in the configuration in question in order for that length to matter.
Link Posted: 8/7/2021 12:50:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2021 1:34:34 AM EDT by operatorerror]
LOL, well it's now got a 16" BRN180 upper on it with a 4 position collapsible stock.  So if it had the folder it could have fired a lot more than once.

But that would be illegal.  And obviously so much more dangerous.  

eta Oh my, they make an 18.5" BRN180 upper.  Now I just need a Brownells sale because $899.99 is nowhere near what I paid for my 16".
Link Posted: 8/10/2021 8:10:22 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bigstick61:
The rule change was done illegally, but DOJ doesn't care, anymore.  Under the statute, the muzzle device should be included for both AW and SBR purposes as a part of the shortest possible configuration.  

And yeah, the gun has to be a "long gun other", "handgun" (including AOW), or be considered C&R by age under California rules to avoid being treated as an SBR with that folded length.  What gets you is that it is possible to fire a shot.  If it were not possible, then you wouldn't have an issue, because the gun needs to be fireable in the configuration in question in order for that length to matter.
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If you have a RAW such as a Scar or something that has a folding stock already, could you realistically unpin the stock to allow it to fold if it falls under the 30" OAL but greater than 26" since it is already a RAW or does the folding stock make it more assaulty? Asking for a friend.
Link Posted: 8/10/2021 10:23:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2021 12:21:25 PM EDT by Trollslayer]
Wait!

Last time I measured, a 16" barrel plus an AR upper receiver receiver are almost 26" by themselves.  Almost any stock ensures you are over the 26" and 30" limits.
Link Posted: 8/11/2021 2:18:55 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
Wait!

Last time I measures, a 16" barrel plus an AR upper receiver receiver are almost 26" by themselves.  Almost any stock ensures you are over the 26" and 30" limits.
View Quote


Try again with a folded LAW Tactical folding stock adapter.
Link Posted: 8/11/2021 2:22:01 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KPog:


If you have a RAW such as a Scar or something that has a folding stock already, could you realistically unpin the stock to allow it to fold if it falls under the 30" OAL but greater than 26" since it is already a RAW or does the folding stock make it more assaulty? Asking for a friend.
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View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KPog:
Originally Posted By bigstick61:
The rule change was done illegally, but DOJ doesn't care, anymore.  Under the statute, the muzzle device should be included for both AW and SBR purposes as a part of the shortest possible configuration.  

And yeah, the gun has to be a "long gun other", "handgun" (including AOW), or be considered C&R by age under California rules to avoid being treated as an SBR with that folded length.  What gets you is that it is possible to fire a shot.  If it were not possible, then you wouldn't have an issue, because the gun needs to be fireable in the configuration in question in order for that length to matter.


If you have a RAW such as a Scar or something that has a folding stock already, could you realistically unpin the stock to allow it to fold if it falls under the 30" OAL but greater than 26" since it is already a RAW or does the folding stock make it more assaulty? Asking for a friend.


Sure.  An assault rifle is an assault rifle according to the statute, although DOJ is working to change that by regulation, such as claiming that assault weapons registered during the bullet button registration period become different, more assaultier assault weapons if you remove the button and become crimes to possess, which is complete bullshit.

For now, at least (who knows what liberties the DOJ will take tomorrow), if it is an AW by features, having it also be under 30" with a folded stock is no big deal, as long as it doesn't become a CA SBR.
Link Posted: 8/11/2021 5:14:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2021 5:15:53 PM EDT by KPog]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bigstick61:


Sure.  An assault rifle is an assault rifle according to the statute, although DOJ is working to change that by regulation, such as claiming that assault weapons registered during the bullet button registration period become different, more assaultier assault weapons if you remove the button and become crimes to possess, which is complete bullshit.

For now, at least (who knows what liberties the DOJ will take tomorrow), if it is an AW by features, having it also be under 30" with a folded stock is no big deal, as long as it doesn't become a CA SBR.
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That has been my own interpretation as well. If anything, the only reason why something with those features would even be registered in the first place. As in, I need some incentive to put myself on that list for as long as I remain in CA, otherwise going featureless(for now) is actually a much better move.

Of course you never know if the state is going to make that person into a martyr or not, but the jury is still out on that(literally).

ETA: I am assuming that also applies to the funky muzzle device on a bullpup as well. As long as it goes to the crown of the barrel for non permanent muzzle device installations you should theoretically be good.
Link Posted: 8/14/2021 1:45:18 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
Wait!

Last time I measured, a 16" barrel plus an AR upper receiver receiver are almost 26" by themselves.  Almost any stock ensures you are over the 26" and 30" limits.
View Quote

Uh, measure twice?  I measured three different 16" uppers (Colt, RRA and Bushmaster) with muzzle devices off as required and they were all 23 1/4".  Of course if your brake is pinned it may be a bit longer.  But these were 23 1/4".  

With the folder folded the gun would measure 25 3/8" in it's shortest configuration.  Theoretically.  Couldn't assemble it as that would be illegal.
Link Posted: 8/14/2021 11:58:53 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Uh, measure twice?  I measured three different 16" uppers (Colt, RRA and Bushmaster) with muzzle devices off as required and they were all 23 1/4".  Of course if your brake is pinned it may be a bit longer.  But these were 23 1/4".  

With the folder folded the gun would measure 25 3/8" in it's shortest configuration.  Theoretically.  Couldn't assemble it as that would be illegal.
View Quote


Note to self - do not buy that folding stock.
Link Posted: 8/14/2021 5:44:31 PM EDT
Digging through my stuff I just found an upper that I put together and forgot about.  Aero Precision enhanced upper with 15" free float rail and an 18" LaRue Stealth barrel.  Unfired.  It would work but seems odd to put a folder on an 18" upper,  but then  it's pretty silly that I built this upper and shoved into the back of my safe too.  I really wanted to do the evil side folder with the BRN180. Someday.

Oh well, off to put together my new mini para FALish rifle.
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