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Link Posted: 10/11/2005 9:39:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 9:48:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
Simple answer yes, we war gamed against A-team SF, it's been a number of years and the new thermal imagers' can be very tough to beat, the new system that tracks direction of sniper bullets is also a effective tool, but you also assume that no one on the opposing team is on our side.

Are you aware the insurgents now take out the M1-A tank on  a regular basis ? battlefield evolution takes place on every battlefield, super weapons never remain so for long, every system has a weakness.



Indeed.

Thanks for your replies.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 10:04:22 AM EDT
Im out here in KY (15FF). Because we use national militia standards strat or one of "his" guys can come out here and easily be intagrated into the group. Same the other way around.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 10:16:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 11:17:32 AM EDT by Da_Bunny]

Originally Posted By MacLean:

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
Simple answer yes, we war gamed against A-team SF, it's been a number of years and the new thermal imagers' can be very tough to beat, the new system that tracks direction of sniper bullets is also a effective tool, but you also assume that no one on the opposing team is on our side.

Are you aware the insurgents now take out the M1-A tank on  a regular basis ? battlefield evolution takes place on every battlefield, super weapons never remain so for long, every system has a weakness.



Indeed.

Thanks for your replies.



Most of the M1-A1/2/3 armor is on the frontal arc of the tank. It was designed to stand up to opposing tank forces, absorb their fire, and return fire with more deadly ammunition. In urban combat, the M1 is vulnerable to flanking and rear arc fire from conventional anti-tank weapons like anti-tank guns, RPGs and small missiles. The Russians have designed RPG rounds with the M1 series in mind. They use a dual cone warhead with a standoff probe that allows the warhead to form a molten metal jet which will penetrate the M1's lighter flanks and rear protection.



Assuming a hostile government, militias would soon face Armored Cars and Armored Personnel Carriers that would stand up to even .50BMG fire. Putting even several holes in an APC will not likely knock it out. The government has thousands of these vehicles at their disposal, as well as helicopters.

Despite news media claims, you don't want to fight an armed helicopter with a bolt action .50BMG rifle. Any weapon that could challenge the best efforts of law enforcement, let alone the military, has already been restricted.

The challenge for a popular militia would be to summon the firepower to defeat whatever a hostile government could bring to the fight. Tactics can be developed that exploit the weaknesses of armor and mobility, but the IEDs and RPGs that are being used in Iraq were all in place before the fighting began. They were dispersed around the country, specifically to fight a long insurgency.

The insurgents use aerial bombs, artillery or anti-tank shells in their IEDs and fabricate remote detonating fuses that rely on cellphones and radios to operate. They are electronic devices that are not easily made in a kitchen or garage. There is evidence that Iran is making detonators for the Iraq-based insurgents and smuggling them in.

Every popular insurgency that has succeeded in the last 50 years has gotten plenty of outside help, whether they wanted it or not. As soon as a power vacuum appears, people will begin to exploit it. Most people will want to stay home, protecting their families and possessions, which is exactly what the hostile government and exploiters are counting on.

ETA: While I've done plenty of homework on insurgency, I am not trying to promote anti-government activities. I fought in Vietnam and had to learn to deal with it.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 10:41:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MacLean:

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:
Simple answer yes, we war gamed against A-team SF, it's been a number of years and the new thermal imagers' can be very tough to beat, the new system that tracks direction of sniper bullets is also a effective tool, but you also assume that no one on the opposing team is on our side.

Are you aware the insurgents now take out the M1-A tank on  a regular basis ? battlefield evolution takes place on every battlefield, super weapons never remain so for long, every system has a weakness.



Indeed.

Thanks for your replies.



MacLean, I assume you are a LEO, is that correct? You seem to be a pretty reasonable guy so let me ask you this hypothetical question. In Strat's reply he stated "you assume that no one on the opposing team is on our side."  So here's my question: What would you do as a police officer if the shit hit the fan and you were given orders to round up insurgents (law abiding gun owners) and you were also given orders to provide backup support for ATF agents as they went into neighborhoods kicking in doors and taking guns? I have to assume that there would be some cops who wouldn't want to play that game and they would be working on the inside to foil the plans of those who would be trying to disarm us. What would you personally do? You don't have to answer me on this thread but I'm asking you the question to promote some thought on your part. Like Strat said, you can not assume that everyone on the other side is really on the other side.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 12:14:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:

MacLean, I assume you are a LEO, is that correct? You seem to be a pretty reasonable guy so let me ask you this hypothetical question. In Strat's reply he stated "you assume that no one on the opposing team is on our side."  So here's my question: What would you do as a police officer if the shit hit the fan and you were given orders to round up insurgents (law abiding gun owners) and you were also given orders to provide backup support for ATF agents as they went into neighborhoods kicking in doors and taking guns? I have to assume that there would be some cops who wouldn't want to play that game and they would be working on the inside to foil the plans of those who would be trying to disarm us. What would you personally do? You don't have to answer me on this thread but I'm asking you the question to promote some thought on your part. Like Strat said, you can not assume that everyone on the other side is really on the other side.



I had been tempted to ask a simular question of MacLean or other LEOs here hoping to get an answer. But this summed it up.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 12:20:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
MacLean, I assume you are a LEO, is that correct? You seem to be a pretty reasonable guy so let me ask you this hypothetical question. In Strat's reply he stated "you assume that no one on the opposing team is on our side."  So here's my question: What would you do as a police officer if the shit hit the fan and you were given orders to round up insurgents (law abiding gun owners) and you were also given orders to provide backup support for ATF agents as they went into neighborhoods kicking in doors and taking guns? I have to assume that there would be some cops who wouldn't want to play that game and they would be working on the inside to foil the plans of those who would be trying to disarm us. What would you personally do? You don't have to answer me on this thread but I'm asking you the question to promote some thought on your part. Like Strat said, you can not assume that everyone on the other side is really on the other side.



There are too many variables to answer that question as posed.

Gun owners are not insurgents until they attempt insurgency, no? I was a gun owner long before LEO, and will be a gun owner long after. I have no plans to ever be an insurgent.

You'd have to give a much clearer example to get an answer to that question, and a much clearer example to really believe that everyone on the "other side" isn't.

As for all the anti-armor stuff - they taught us anti-armor, and I am aware of the usual vulnerabilities. I'm not sure why anyone thinks they would be facing tanks, but it was a neat distraction.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 12:31:08 PM EDT
It is unlikely that we would ever face MBTs, but LAVs, IFVs and APCs are a significant threat.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 1:49:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SARS:
It is unlikely that we would ever face MBTs, but LAVs, IFVs and APCs are a significant threat.



Really?

What sort of scenario do you see this happening in?
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 1:57:16 PM EDT
Armor is not unknown to governments. In virtually every insurgency around the world, governments have used armored vehicles to protect it's forces.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 1:57:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MacLean:

Originally Posted By SARS:
It is unlikely that we would ever face MBTs, but LAVs, IFVs and APCs are a significant threat.



Really?

What sort of scenario do you see this happening in?



Can't answer for SARS but my contacts tell me to prepare for light armor combined forces with CAS.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 2:11:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 2:15:33 PM EDT by arfarf]

Originally Posted By MacLean:

Originally Posted By SARS:
It is unlikely that we would ever face MBTs, but LAVs, IFVs and APCs are a significant threat.



Really?

What sort of scenario do you see this happening in?











Link Posted: 10/11/2005 2:34:52 PM EDT


I could show you how to get into a Combat locked M113/M577 in less than 30 seconds with nothing more than a 3 lb sledge and a sturdy screwdriver.

Not much of a threat in my book..
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 2:39:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:
Not much of a threat in my book..


With a Mark19 on top they are, and the U.S. is way behind the comblock in that department.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:16:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MacLean:

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
MacLean, I assume you are a LEO, is that correct? You seem to be a pretty reasonable guy so let me ask you this hypothetical question. In Strat's reply he stated "you assume that no one on the opposing team is on our side."  So here's my question: What would you do as a police officer if the shit hit the fan and you were given orders to round up insurgents (law abiding gun owners) and you were also given orders to provide backup support for ATF agents as they went into neighborhoods kicking in doors and taking guns? I have to assume that there would be some cops who wouldn't want to play that game and they would be working on the inside to foil the plans of those who would be trying to disarm us. What would you personally do? You don't have to answer me on this thread but I'm asking you the question to promote some thought on your part. Like Strat said, you can not assume that everyone on the other side is really on the other side.



There are too many variables to answer that question as posed.

Gun owners are not insurgents until they attempt insurgency, no? I was a gun owner long before LEO, and will be a gun owner long after. I have no plans to ever be an insurgent.

You'd have to give a much clearer example to get an answer to that question, and a much clearer example to really believe that everyone on the "other side" isn't.

As for all the anti-armor stuff - they taught us anti-armor, and I am aware of the usual vulnerabilities. I'm not sure why anyone thinks they would be facing tanks, but it was a neat distraction.


Your "non-answer" speaks volumes. The question was very straight forward. Nothing ambigiuos about it. When the shit hits the fan and the government tries to dis-arm law abiding citizens who have become criminals by the stroke of a pen from a politician, what are you personally going to do? You can not serve 2 masters. You either serve the police or you serve the people in that situation. I think the recent gun grab in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina shows that this scenareo isn't too far fetched for you to consider.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:23:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 6:28:56 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:

Originally Posted By MacLean:

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
MacLean, I assume you are a LEO, is that correct? You seem to be a pretty reasonable guy so let me ask you this hypothetical question. In Strat's reply he stated "you assume that no one on the opposing team is on our side."  So here's my question: What would you do as a police officer if the shit hit the fan and you were given orders to round up insurgents (law abiding gun owners) and you were also given orders to provide backup support for ATF agents as they went into neighborhoods kicking in doors and taking guns? I have to assume that there would be some cops who wouldn't want to play that game and they would be working on the inside to foil the plans of those who would be trying to disarm us. What would you personally do? You don't have to answer me on this thread but I'm asking you the question to promote some thought on your part. Like Strat said, you can not assume that everyone on the other side is really on the other side.



There are too many variables to answer that question as posed.

Gun owners are not insurgents until they attempt insurgency, no? I was a gun owner long before LEO, and will be a gun owner long after. I have no plans to ever be an insurgent.

You'd have to give a much clearer example to get an answer to that question, and a much clearer example to really believe that everyone on the "other side" isn't.

As for all the anti-armor stuff - they taught us anti-armor, and I am aware of the usual vulnerabilities. I'm not sure why anyone thinks they would be facing tanks, but it was a neat distraction.



Your "non-answer" speaks volumes. The question was very straight forward. Nothing ambigiuos about it. When the shit hits the fan and the government tries to dis-arm law abiding citizens who have become criminals by the stroke of a pen from a politician, what are you personally going to do? You can not serve 2 masters. You either serve the police or you serve the people in that situation. I think the recent gun grab in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina shows that this scenareo isn't too far fetched for you to consider.



Like many of us, I'll postpose declaring hostilities until such time as I must do otherwise. I am encouraged that Maclean is here sharing his experiences and perspective with us. I am disinclined to count him amongst the gun-grabbing "uber-progressive" control freaks. Quite the contrary, actually.

Oh, and...


Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:34:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 6:34:55 PM EDT by arfarf]
Heres one for you guys



Seattles APC
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:36:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arfarf:
Heres one for you guys



Seattles APC



COPS GOT BEARS!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:39:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:41:19 PM EDT
"Here little kid little kid, we're your friends. We SWEAR we won't burn you alive!"
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:42:05 PM EDT
The picture of the APC driving thru the big puddle of water caught my eye. At first glance it looked like Strat was topside in that thing!
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:43:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
The picture of the APC driving thru the big puddle of water caught my eye. At first glance it looked like Strat was topside in that thing!

I thought the same thing.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:44:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
The picture of the APC driving thru the big puddle of water caught my eye. At first glance it looked like Strat was topside in that thing!



You're in a heap a trouble boy
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:53:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
The picture of the APC driving thru the big puddle of water caught my eye. At first glance it looked like Strat was topside in that thing!



You're in a heap a trouble boy



Well, was it you?
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:37:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
The picture of the APC driving thru the big puddle of water caught my eye. At first glance it looked like Strat was topside in that thing!



You're in a heap a trouble boy



Well, was it you?



Well, it does look good on him....
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:39:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 8:44:17 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]

Originally Posted By SARS:
"Here little kid little kid, we're your friends. We SWEAR we won't burn you alive!"



If I was easy to kill, I'd already be dead.

ETA: Then again, maybe I just ain't worth a bullet.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:56:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:

Originally Posted By STRATIOTES:

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
The picture of the APC driving thru the big puddle of water caught my eye. At first glance it looked like Strat was topside in that thing!



You're in a heap a trouble boy



Well, was it you?



Well, it does look good on him....



No BDU's, no LBV, no assault rifle. About the only thing he has in common is the mustache

Strat would be traveling much faster too.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:59:00 PM EDT
The hat too. Ignore the badge and LE markings and it could be him. Strat would definitely have that thing maxed out speed-wise.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:40:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SARS:
The hat too. Ignore the badge and LE markings and it could be him. Strat would definitely have that thing maxed out speed-wise.



I been known to get bulldozers airborne, betcha I could make that thing fly.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:46:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 8:46:47 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]
Damn it, they shut down their site. Anybody save a pic?
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:48:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Damn it, they shut down their site. Anybody save a pic?


The one that had the guy that looked similar to strat?
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:50:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SARS:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Damn it, they shut down their site. Anybody save a pic?


The one that had the guy that looked similar to strat?



Yup
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:52:04 PM EDT
Look again, I can still see it.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:52:22 PM EDT
I saved it now JIC.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:55:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 8:56:23 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]

Originally Posted By SARS:
I saved it now JIC.



I'm locked out of the site, save them all. And e-mail them to me please!

babunny@gte.net
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 9:03:53 PM EDT
Sent.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 9:35:31 PM EDT
Those belong to a brand new family of vehicles that I saw listed in the Jane's advertising index. They range from a 4X4 drive, up to a 10X10 drive, APC as well as an 8x8 expandable height flatbed truck. They swim and offer NBC over-pressure protection.

The fact that they secured their website an hour after I linked the pictures tells me that our government is spending some big bucks and they don't want to share with us yet. The vehicles are making the rounds at LEO and military trade shows.

I love the 10X10. Talk about an All Terrain RV! I don't think you drive it anywhere, you just park it between your location and your destination, walk through the vehicle, and you're there.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:36:20 AM EDT


Shit, need to get back into this one......Stupd job.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 5:49:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:


Shit, need to get back into this one......Stupd job.



So you ready for a Rifle Qualification Course ?
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:21:07 PM EDT
Hello,everyone

I read this whole post,and thought I should explain what I see the militia as.
Im in Kentucky and am part of the militia,as everyone of you are.These are only my thoughts on the subject,and do not represent anyone but me.

I could quote here,but they would not be my words so I will not quote anything in this post,but most of what I will say has been said by better minds and nimbler tounges.

We are all Militia,under the law anyone 18 or older is,it is your duty it is the job of every true lover of freedom and this country.The only thing the militia is,is the people protecting themselves and there comunitys on a grass roots level.There are many people that are ACTIVE in training,that have differnet political and religous belifes.(Sorry for spelling,like I said Kentucky...LOL)My only goal when I decided to take a active part in the militia,was to insure that my comunity and my freedoms were protected.The militia is the foundation of freedom,It is where freedom starts.It is the right to self protection and mutual protection from any foe.It dose not care what happens in government,it dose not care what name you call god,it only cares about freedom and safty and makeing sure that the people have the power to insure and provide for ther own safty.


There there is the other part that somehow always gets mixed in.

Do you feel that the current government and current laws are infringing on the only two thing the militia is about,freedom and safty?I personaly do feel that they are infriging or our freedom and safty.That is only the way I see it,yes many in the militia see it the same way.I alone dont represent the militia,I only speak for my self.Any action taken would be for the soul porpuse of protecting my comunity from those who would do her harm.I dont care if its ATF,FBI,CHINA,or who ever eles.I fight for no man under no banner,I fight for what i know is right.

This post dose support my belife that we have an out of control governmet that in very few way is here to protect the people.Look at what the word militia has become,the media paints us all as anti governmet racist with a hidden agenda.I am NOT anti governmet,Im pro FREEDOM.It this governmet is against freedom,then Im against this government.

Thats all i got to say.

Forgive me If I ruffled any feather.

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