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Posted: 2/5/2023 4:59:49 PM EDT
what is anyones thoughts on silvertip ammo any cal for use as selfdefence ammo are there betterout there what do you carry civil/duty ammo
Link Posted: 2/5/2023 5:23:58 PM EDT
[#1]
It is old technology, there is better out there today.   It still works fairly well.  I think it is too expensive for what it is.
One advantage silver tips have is the wide range of cartridges they cover.  From .32 ACP Up they included cartridges other makers skipped.  Like .38 Super, .41 Magnum and .44 Special.

Besides cost, some calibers don’t penetrate deeply, and some don’t expand much.  

I have a small supply for my .38 Super, so I think it is good enough for real life.  When that is gone, I will probably switch to one of the all copper loads.
Link Posted: 2/5/2023 7:22:19 PM EDT
[#2]
I like them in 10mm and 147gr 9mm. They suck against car windshields in 38spl. I had a friend get run over to prove that.
Link Posted: 2/5/2023 8:35:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 10mmillie:
I like them in 10mm and 147gr 9mm. They suck against car windshields in 38spl. I had a friend get run over to prove that.
View Quote


I totally forgot about the 10mm and I don’t ever remember seeing 147 grain 9mm.  As far as .38 silver tips sucking against windshields that is true, but most .38 Specials suck against windshields.

Winchester created a marketing name when they introduced silvertips.  There are really two technologies being used.  For the higher velocity cartridges the jacket is fairly conventional but nickel plated.  For the lower velocity cartridges they use an aluminum jacket. They never improved this, Maybe they tried and failed.
Link Posted: 2/5/2023 9:30:22 PM EDT
[#4]
Nothing wrong with them. Are there better choices these days ? Sure, but they do have a reputation of feeding reliability across many platforms.
They perform better over 1100 ft/sec.
Link Posted: 2/6/2023 3:50:23 PM EDT
[#5]
I just wish the loaded them in nickel plated cases from the factory and sell the bullets as reloading components.
Link Posted: 2/6/2023 7:17:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JMD] [#6]


In 357 magnum they are still tier one. I would rate them as good as any of the newer 357 self defense rounds.  

They are okay in 38 special.  Better choices out there but still are good rounds

9mm are a good option.  There are better options but in 147 gr not by very much.  Still a good load

45 acp.  Once again a good load.  Will feed in 1911s usually as well.   Still consider a good option in this caliber


Silvertips are a good self defense ammo.  In some calibers there are better options but it is still a good round.
Link Posted: 2/6/2023 7:38:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: VASCAR2] [#7]
Back in the 80’s I carried Winchester Silvertip 145 grain JHP in my issued model 66.  Previously I carried Remington or Winchester 125 grain JHP with exposed lead hollow point.  The 145 grain Silvertip 357 had jacket that went into the nose like semi auto bullets.  The 145 grain Silvertip was loaded with low flash powder.  The Winchester and Remington 125 grain JHP ammo produced a very bright flash and blast.   The 145 grain Silvertip penetrated barriers better, was faster on the clock for me compared to the 125’s.   The 145 grain was just as lethal as the 125’s when used to dispatch injured deer from car crashes.

I carried the 380 Silvertip in my Walther PPKs and PPK.  I also carried 185 grain JHP Silvertip in my 1911 45’s.   When I carried a 9 mm it was with 115 grain Silvertips until my Agency issued W-W 115 grain JHP +P+.    There are better bullets today but I was satisfied with Silvertips in the 80’s & 90’s.

Today my 9 mm is loaded with standard pressure 124 grain HST and my 380 Glock 42 is loaded with American Gunner 90 grain XTP.   If I carry a 40 S&W it is loaded with 180 grain HST and if I carry a 45 it is loaded with 230 grain HST.   My 38 Specials are loaded with Remington 158 grain lead SWC HP.
Link Posted: 2/7/2023 2:34:19 PM EDT
[#8]
I currently am carrying the 147gr silver tips in my Hellcat. .50/rd from Target sports. Cheap enough I can practice with some when I want to. I also have speer gold dots , and Hornady critical defense in several calibers.
Link Posted: 2/11/2023 7:09:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: StevenH] [#9]
They’ve been upgraded recently.

I always liked them for 10mm, 41Mag & .357Mag. It’s also the only reliable .45 JHP in my 1911.
Link Posted: 2/13/2023 10:11:55 AM EDT
[#10]
I personally like some of the loads even though they use very old tech from the 80's.

They have not used aluminum jackets in a while. There is an excellent test of the new 45ACP 185gr Silvertips a few pages back and it did very well. They use conventional jackets that are just nickel plated.

I still use them in my 10mm but generally they are WAY overpriced for being obsolete tech.

For 9mm they are 3rd tier loads just better than FMJ. Those 115gr Silvertips shoot very well and are very accurate but again its an outdated load. I acquired a few hundred from a local PD and sometimes shoot and carry the 115 in my Glock 43 since it shoots so nice and smooth and I'm thinking the short barrel will reduce velocity enough to get better penetration.
Link Posted: 2/13/2023 11:10:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel] [#11]
I don’t think I have any left at this point.  I last bought new silvertips in the early nineties.  9mm for the S&W 469 and 185 .45 ACP for the 1911.  In my wet newspaper testing the cavities would fill up and fail to expand for what that test is worth,

I would later use them up in the later phase of a new gun’s break in.  First a few hundred rounds of ball then some hollow points.  I am pretty sure that is where the last of mine went. ...along with some 9mm star fire hollow points.   Now I run ball, Winchester 9mm Nato 147 HP or Mag Tech HPs, then final function reliability test with Speer Gold Dots or HSTs.  On a case of HST currently.

That said if I was in some far flung place and silvertips were all there was I’d run them.  I certainly wouldn’t opt to buy them over HSTs, Gold Dots or even the Federal Classic line of hollow points.

Silvertips are on my don’t buy list as is Rem Golden Sabers.  The sabers loosen up in the case too soon if you are doing a few administrative unloading.  Otherwise they are a good performer.  In the .40 cal no way would I want s golden saber stuffed into the case to be fired.  Pressure spikes through the maximums.  The silvertips would get deformed around the hollow point opening from impacting the feed ramp after a few trips into the chamber.  Particularly the big opening on the .45 acp.


Edit,....I didn’t know they were reworked and updated.  That’s good.   Ignore my comments unless you want to know about the older stuff for some reason.
Link Posted: 2/13/2023 12:07:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Its generic cup and core tech...not bad but not great.  


I do miss the old rifle Silvertips with the AL cap.  They were good all around bullets.
Link Posted: 4/26/2023 1:38:09 AM EDT
[#13]
For 9mm there are 147gr Silvertips. There is the 115gr as well but for me it doesn't penetrate enough.
Link Posted: 4/26/2023 1:50:45 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jsg7162:
I currently am carrying the 147gr silver tips in my Hellcat. .50/rd from Target sports. Cheap enough I can practice with some when I want to. I also have speer gold dots , and Hornady critical defense in several calibers.
View Quote


@jsg7162

I say 147gr Silver tips are better than those other bullets mentioned.
Link Posted: 4/26/2023 1:55:09 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:...I would later use them up in the later phase of a new gun’s break in.  First a few hundred rounds of ball then some hollow points.  I am pretty sure that is where the last of mine went. ...along with some 9mm star fire hollow points.   Now I run ball, Winchester 9mm Nato 147 HP or Mag Tech HPs, then final function reliability test with Speer Gold Dots or HSTs.  On a case of HST currently...
View Quote


Those new NATO 147gr h.p. rounds don't penetrate enough, IMO.

@SteelonSteel

Link Posted: 4/26/2023 3:05:26 AM EDT
[#16]
Meh at best
Link Posted: 4/26/2023 5:52:30 AM EDT
[#17]
For awhile, if you wanted a HP bullet in .45 Colt from the factory, they were about the only round you could find. And even then, they were hard to find.
Link Posted: 4/26/2023 7:10:02 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By peacematu:


Those new NATO 147gr h.p. rounds don't penetrate enough, IMO.

@SteelonSteel

View Quote



Good to know, thank you.

The second tier hollow points I use more or less to make sure with a higher round count that the tested gun in question will digest hollow points.  I guess if that was all I could get I’d carry them but not by choice, same with the Magtech as they shatter and shred the jackets.  I got them relatively cheap so I do T&E with them.
Link Posted: 4/26/2023 7:48:39 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:



Good to know, thank you.

The second tier hollow points I use more or less to make sure with a higher round count that the tested gun in question will digest hollow points.  I guess if that was all I could get I’d carry them but not by choice, same with the Magtech as they shatter and shred the jackets.  I got them relatively cheap so I do T&E with them.
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Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:
Originally Posted By peacematu:


Those new NATO 147gr h.p. rounds don't penetrate enough, IMO.

@SteelonSteel




Good to know, thank you.

The second tier hollow points I use more or less to make sure with a higher round count that the tested gun in question will digest hollow points.  I guess if that was all I could get I’d carry them but not by choice, same with the Magtech as they shatter and shred the jackets.  I got them relatively cheap so I do T&E with them.


Which second tier ammo do you like?
Link Posted: 4/26/2023 2:47:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:
I don’t think I have any left at this point.  I last bought new silvertips in the early nineties.  9mm for the S&W 469 and 185 .45 ACP for the 1911.  In my wet newspaper testing the cavities would fill up and fail to expand for what that test is worth,

I would later use them up in the later phase of a new gun’s break in.  First a few hundred rounds of ball then some hollow points.  I am pretty sure that is where the last of mine went. ...along with some 9mm star fire hollow points.   Now I run ball, Winchester 9mm Nato 147 HP or Mag Tech HPs, then final function reliability test with Speer Gold Dots or HSTs.  On a case of HST currently.

That said if I was in some far flung place and silvertips were all there was I’d run them.  I certainly wouldn’t opt to buy them over HSTs, Gold Dots or even the Federal Classic line of hollow points.

Silvertips are on my don’t buy list as is Rem Golden Sabers.  The sabers loosen up in the case too soon if you are doing a few administrative unloading.  Otherwise they are a good performer.  In the .40 cal no way would I want s golden saber stuffed into the case to be fired.  Pressure spikes through the maximums.  The silvertips would get deformed around the hollow point opening from impacting the feed ramp after a few trips into the chamber.  Particularly the big opening on the .45 acp.


Edit,....I didn’t know they were reworked and updated.  That’s good.   Ignore my comments unless you want to know about the older stuff for some reason.
View Quote


Don't know if you reload, but for those who do, I started running my factory EDC rounds through a Lee FCD before loading them up to make sure they stay in place, even with ammo I've never had or heard about having problems with set back.
Link Posted: 4/28/2023 6:17:37 PM EDT
[#21]
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Originally Posted By Number1gun:

. . . they do have a reputation of feeding reliability across many platforms.
View Quote

They also have a reputation of getting FBI agents killed.

...
Link Posted: 4/29/2023 6:05:14 AM EDT
[#22]
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Originally Posted By Molon:

They also have a reputation of getting FBI agents killed.

...
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Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By Number1gun:

. . . they do have a reputation of feeding reliability across many platforms.

They also have a reputation of getting FBI agents killed.

...


I don't know if the 147gr Silvertips existed back then. The 115gr one that hit the bad guy penetrated to one inch from his heart. I have to wonder if a 147gr round, if it existed then, would have ended things quicker by penetrating one and a half or two inches more.

@Molon
Link Posted: 4/29/2023 8:34:16 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
I personally like some of the loads even though they use very old tech from the 80's.

They have not used aluminum jackets in a while. There is an excellent test of the new 45ACP 185gr Silvertips a few pages back and it did very well. They use conventional jackets that are just nickel plated.

I still use them in my 10mm but generally they are WAY overpriced for being obsolete tech.

For 9mm they are 3rd tier loads just better than FMJ. Those 115gr Silvertips shoot very well and are very accurate but again its an outdated load. I acquired a few hundred from a local PD and sometimes shoot and carry the 115 in my Glock 43 since it shoots so nice and smooth and I'm thinking the short barrel will reduce velocity enough to get better penetration.
View Quote


You mean, they don't use actual silver?
Link Posted: 4/29/2023 3:04:24 PM EDT
[#24]
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Originally Posted By Molon:

They also have a reputation of getting FBI agents killed.

...
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By Number1gun:

. . . they do have a reputation of feeding reliability across many platforms.

They also have a reputation of getting FBI agents killed.

...



FBI tactics have a reputation of getting agents killed.  The round performed exactly as expected for the protocols of the time period.  There was a lot of fucked up decisions the agents made that contributed more to their deaths than the weapons or bullets used.
Link Posted: 4/29/2023 5:36:47 PM EDT
[#25]
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Originally Posted By Molon:

They also have a reputation of getting FBI agents killed.

...
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By Number1gun:

. . . they do have a reputation of feeding reliability across many platforms.

They also have a reputation of getting FBI agents killed.

...


Obviously, those agents didn’t have Silvertips in their Seecamps—they’re supposedly 66% “one stop shots” from a Seecamp.

FBI needs to chose better—where’s LeMat’s Blended Metal or Marshall & Sanow?
Link Posted: 4/29/2023 5:37:47 PM EDT
[#26]
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Originally Posted By JMD:

FBI tactics have a reputation of getting agents killed.  The round performed exactly as expected for the protocols of the time period.  There was a lot of fucked up decisions the agents made that contributed more to their deaths than the weapons or bullets used.
View Quote

All of which has nothing to do with the FACT that the Winchester Silvertips failed to penetrate deeply enough and allowed Platt to keep putting bullets into FBI agents.

....
Link Posted: 5/6/2023 8:39:38 PM EDT
[#27]
Good for 10mm’s and feeding Seecamp’s.
Other than maybe mid range loads for .44 Magnum and .45 LC.
Link Posted: 5/6/2023 10:51:54 PM EDT
[#28]
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Originally Posted By 32ACP:

where’s LeMat’s Blended Metal . . .
View Quote

Since Silver Tip technology was the most significant technological advancement in small arms since the advent of the 20th century, maybe Platt’s body just wasn’t warm enough to activate the pyrophoric properties of the Silver Tip bullets needed to render him zero mission capable and thus it would have been solely Platt’s fault that the Silver Tip bullets did not satisfy the emergent command mission assignment.

...



Link Posted: 5/6/2023 11:16:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Golden Sabre Bonded.
Link Posted: 5/7/2023 9:06:15 AM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molon:

All of which has nothing to do with the FACT that the Winchester Silvertips failed to penetrate deeply enough and allowed Platt to keep putting bullets into FBI agents.

....
View Quote


The lesson to be learned here is DO NOT GO INTO A GUNFIGHT WITH A PISTOL WHEN YOU HAVE ACCESS TO A RIFLE........ Pistols by and large are "iffy" stoppers. Rifles on the other hand are notorious for stopping fights.
Link Posted: 5/7/2023 1:00:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JMD] [#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molon:

Since Silver Tip technology was the most significant technological advancement in small arms since the advent of the 20th century, maybe Platt’s body just wasn’t warm enough to activate the pyrophoric properties of the Silver Tip bullets needed to render him zero mission capable and thus it would have been solely Platt’s fault that the Silver Tip bullets did not satisfy the emergent command mission assignment.

...



View Quote


No
other 9mm would have performed any better with the technology of the time
Link Posted: 5/7/2023 1:53:47 PM EDT
[#32]
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Originally Posted By JMD:

No other 9mm would have performed any better with the technology of the time
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By JMD:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By 32ACP:

where’s LeMat’s Blended Metal . . .

Since Silver Tip technology was the most significant technological advancement in small arms since the advent of the 20th century, maybe Platt’s body just wasn’t warm enough to activate the pyrophoric properties of the Silver Tip bullets needed to render him zero mission capable and thus it would have been solely Platt’s fault that the Silver Tip bullets did not satisfy the emergent command mission assignment.
...

No other 9mm would have performed any better with the technology of the time



You are clueless, on soooo many levels.

..
Link Posted: 5/7/2023 10:28:39 PM EDT
[#33]
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Originally Posted By Molon:



You are clueless, on soooo many levels.

..
View Quote

Back in '86, what would you have carried?

I think it was around 89 or '90 that I started carrying the Cor Bon 115 +p but that may penetrate even less than the Silvertip. Did Hornady make the XTP back in '86?

Link Posted: 5/8/2023 12:55:05 AM EDT
[#34]
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Originally Posted By JMD:


No
other 9mm would have performed any better with the technology of the time
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JMD:
Originally Posted By Molon:

Since Silver Tip technology was the most significant technological advancement in small arms since the advent of the 20th century, maybe Platt’s body just wasn’t warm enough to activate the pyrophoric properties of the Silver Tip bullets needed to render him zero mission capable and thus it would have been solely Platt’s fault that the Silver Tip bullets did not satisfy the emergent command mission assignment.

...





No
other 9mm would have performed any better with the technology of the time


If 147gr hollow points existed back the, it probably would have provided the 1.5" extra penetration that may have made a difference. Molon would know better than I.
Link Posted: 5/8/2023 3:44:32 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molon:

All of which has nothing to do with the FACT that the Winchester Silvertips failed to penetrate deeply enough and allowed Platt to keep putting bullets into FBI agents.

....
View Quote
Tip.
Silvertip. Singular.
Only one bullet struck him on a line to enter the chest cavity. He was struck by several very shallow angle through and through shots, and one buried in his lat under the scapula..
That hit filled his pleural cavity with 20% of his blood volume, plus what he sprayed all over the sides and trunk of the FBI car.
The "inch and a half" bandied about-               this                 -,might have hit his heart...might have shut him down sooner...might have.
Picture Jerry Dove loading that bullet into his magazine in 1985 or 1986. 37 years ago. Was it in the first magazine of 10, or the second? He only loaded 10 into each mag because it saved a little weight, and he liked those thin woven belts. Of the 70 verified shots fired by the FBI he fired 20 and hit twice, maybe three times. But the other two were in the thigh and(maybe) the foot.
Platt was shot twice at arms length in the head(a glancing blow) and chest by Mireles, the chest shot lodging in his spine. Minutes later, he still had a pulse and the medics started a line and inserted an endotracheal tube.
That's an awful lot to place on one bullet and one and a half inches, compared to the other 50+ fired at Platt.
But the FBI succeeded in doing just that.
Link Posted: 5/23/2023 11:46:02 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JMD:



FBI tactics have a reputation of getting agents killed.  The round performed exactly as expected for the protocols of the time period.  There was a lot of fucked up decisions the agents made that contributed more to their deaths than the weapons or bullets used.
View Quote



The FBI agents actually caught a break that day because Platt was using cheap chinese.223 ,55 grain fmj. The ammo is not as good as some of the other options that were available at the time either.
Link Posted: 6/18/2023 8:50:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: bfoosh06] [#37]
Link Posted: 6/18/2023 9:24:25 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MCBallpeen:


The lesson to be learned here is DO NOT GO INTO A GUNFIGHT WITH A PISTOL WHEN YOU HAVE ACCESS TO A RIFLE........ Pistols by and large are "iffy" stoppers. Rifles on the other hand are notorious for stopping fights.
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Originally Posted By MCBallpeen:
Originally Posted By Molon:

All of which has nothing to do with the FACT that the Winchester Silvertips failed to penetrate deeply enough and allowed Platt to keep putting bullets into FBI agents.

....


The lesson to be learned here is DO NOT GO INTO A GUNFIGHT WITH A PISTOL WHEN YOU HAVE ACCESS TO A RIFLE........ Pistols by and large are "iffy" stoppers. Rifles on the other hand are notorious for stopping fights.


The lesson should be to pick a bullet that will penetrate.
Link Posted: 6/18/2023 10:52:27 AM EDT
[#39]
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Originally Posted By 03RN:


The lesson should be to pick a bullet that will penetrate.
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Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By MCBallpeen:
Originally Posted By Molon:

All of which has nothing to do with the FACT that the Winchester Silvertips failed to penetrate deeply enough and allowed Platt to keep putting bullets into FBI agents.

....


The lesson to be learned here is DO NOT GO INTO A GUNFIGHT WITH A PISTOL WHEN YOU HAVE ACCESS TO A RIFLE........ Pistols by and large are "iffy" stoppers. Rifles on the other hand are notorious for stopping fights.


The lesson should be to pick a bullet that will penetrate.


And shoot better............... Good training and multiple solid hits beat spray and pray. It's  easy to scapegoat a single bullet and sounds better then ''our guys didn't shoot very well'' and sound like much of the fault lies with the agency.
Link Posted: 6/18/2023 11:20:48 AM EDT
[#40]
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Originally Posted By peacematu:


If 147gr hollow points existed back the, it probably would have provided the 1.5" extra penetration that may have made a difference. Molon would know better than I.
View Quote

Just a plain old 124 grain FMJ would have given the needed penetration.

.....
Link Posted: 6/21/2023 1:53:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By feudist:
Tip.
Silvertip. Singular.
Only one bullet struck him on a line to enter the chest cavity. He was struck by several very shallow angle through and through shots, and one buried in his lat under the scapula..
That hit filled his pleural cavity with 20% of his blood volume, plus what he sprayed all over the sides and trunk of the FBI car.
The "inch and a half" bandied about-               this                 -,might have hit his heart...might have shut him down sooner...might have.
Picture Jerry Dove loading that bullet into his magazine in 1985 or 1986. 37 years ago. Was it in the first magazine of 10, or the second? He only loaded 10 into each mag because it saved a little weight, and he liked those thin woven belts. Of the 70 verified shots fired by the FBI he fired 20 and hit twice, maybe three times. But the other two were in the thigh and(maybe) the foot.
Platt was shot twice at arms length in the head(a glancing blow) and chest by Mireles, the chest shot lodging in his spine. Minutes later, he still had a pulse and the medics started a line and inserted an endotracheal tube.
That's an awful lot to place on one bullet and one and a half inches, compared to the other 50+ fired at Platt.
But the FBI succeeded in doing just that.
View Quote

At least no one tried to claim the Silvertip is inaccurate and THAT is what led to the casualties. (Silvertip 115 are one of the most accurate loads in my 16" PCC out to 100 yards, I think only 147 Ranger is more accurate)

Link Posted: 6/23/2023 2:03:21 AM EDT
[#42]
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Originally Posted By bfoosh06:

@Molon

Lol... solid info ... Haha

IME  115gr Silvertips frequently shed their jackets. And the 147gr tend not to expand.

If memory serves me... the 147gr were quite accurate though. ( maybe )

Personally, I don't recommend them to anyone. Way to many GTG , current designs that work well.

And as mentioned, for the price, the performance is lacking.

Spending slightly more , for a current proven design is prudent.
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Referring to the bolded part above, do the 147gr Silvertips fail to expand in gel or when hitting a live being?

@bfoosh06
Link Posted: 6/23/2023 10:11:57 AM EDT
[#43]
Link Posted: 6/23/2023 11:02:34 AM EDT
[#44]
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Originally Posted By 11C1P:


Don't know if you reload, but for those who do, I started running my factory EDC rounds through a Lee FCD before loading them up to make sure they stay in place, even with ammo I've never had or heard about having problems with set back.
View Quote



The Golden sabres had a driving band diameter near the base.  A few hits on the nose while chambering I am pretty sure levered the bullets in the case mouth loose much easier than straight shanked bullets.
Link Posted: 6/23/2023 11:08:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel] [#45]
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Originally Posted By peacematu:


Which second tier ammo do you like?
View Quote



@peacematu

Sorry I didn’t come back but the Federal Classic duty ammo hollow points rate decently in tests.

The other stuff I buy on sales is more or less for break in and practice.  Like the aforementioned Magtechs and the Winchester Nato stuff, It’s not the best but it’s better than nothing if hard pressed for ammo.   Personally I do not like the Winchester Nato loads.  Recoil impulse is sharper and a tad disruptive in cadence.   Also it was mentioned the cheap winchester doesn’t rate well.   Neither does the magtechs according to Lucky Gunner videos, as they shatter to small pieces which cannot be good for penetration reliability.   Break in ammo.
Link Posted: 6/23/2023 3:53:27 PM EDT
[#46]
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Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:



@peacematu

Sorry I didn’t come back but the Federal Classic duty ammo hollow points rate decently in tests.

The other stuff I buy on sales is more or less for break in and practice.  Like the aforementioned Magtechs and the Winchester Nato stuff, It’s not the best but it’s better than nothing if hard pressed for ammo.   Personally I do not like the Winchester Nato loads.  Recoil impulse is sharper and a tad disruptive in cadence.   Also it was mentioned the cheap winchester doesn’t rate well.   Neither does the magtechs according to Lucky Gunner videos, as they shatter to small pieces which cannot be good for penetration reliability.   Break in ammo.
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Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:
Originally Posted By peacematu:


Which second tier ammo do you like?



@peacematu

Sorry I didn’t come back but the Federal Classic duty ammo hollow points rate decently in tests.

The other stuff I buy on sales is more or less for break in and practice.  Like the aforementioned Magtechs and the Winchester Nato stuff, It’s not the best but it’s better than nothing if hard pressed for ammo.   Personally I do not like the Winchester Nato loads.  Recoil impulse is sharper and a tad disruptive in cadence.   Also it was mentioned the cheap winchester doesn’t rate well.   Neither does the magtechs according to Lucky Gunner videos, as they shatter to small pieces which cannot be good for penetration reliability.   Break in ammo.


Thanks.

I'm wondering if the Federal Classic Duty ammo is synonymous with Federal Hi-Shok. Maybe someone will chime in.
Link Posted: 6/23/2023 4:05:27 PM EDT
[#47]
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Originally Posted By bfoosh06:



@peacematu
My bad, these were from decades ago.  The current Silver Tip designs might be better nowadays.  I apologize.

It sucks being an old Fart, Lol... I was "shooting" ( commenting ) from the hip.

I haven't bothered to recheck the Winc. 147gr ST , since the advent of the GD and HST designs. So it is likely the 147gr ST has improved.

When we tested them, waaaay back then , ( way before before having cameras on every phone, and cell phones , Lol )  all we had was 24+hr soaked, soggy wet newspaper.  And we tested a ton of .357 Mag. , 9MM, 40 S&W, 45 Auto, and 44 Magnum factory pistol loads. ( A bunch of rifle rounds as well. )

I would still use the soggy wet newspaper for a side by side comparison , but not for a repeatable / consistent test.

While the soggy newspaper testing isn't up to any standard, it does readily show the wound channel , and made for easy comparison between the various loads. It was the best us curious young bucks / amateurs had at the time.

FWIW, A glaring example was the .357 Rem. scalped JHP 125gr , v. the 9MM Winc +P+ 127gr JHP.... the velocity was the same from the 2 1/2" barreled Ruger revolvers used, but the bullet design was wildly different performance wise.

The .357 Scalloped JHP, will mess something up badly.... it was a far larger wound channel, compared to the 9MM +P+ 127gr JHP.  Total Penetration was the same... but night and day differences in the wound track.

Anyway, the 147gr Silvertip at that time would barely expand. And At the time, hardly any 9MM 147gr bullets would expand... heck, not all 9MM 115gr bullets would reliably expand.

When I say they wouldn't expand, I mean the JHP petals would barely open.  And they wouldn't increase the OAL width of the bullet... so to me no meaningful expansion.

But the 115gr Silvertips would expand about 70% of the time, and they would shed the jackets.  They also had shallow penetration.


So, again my bad , I was basing my comment on the older designs.

FWIW, the 155gr  40 S&W Silvertips would reliably expand , but shed their jacket everytime.  I still have all those recovered bullets.

I also captured 2 300WM 180gr ( ? ) Barnes X bullets that impacted each other, they twisted around each other... kinda cool to look at.  And they were tough enough to handle the combined impact. Impressive performance to me.

BTW, the expansion of the soggy newspaper is quite a bit while soaking, so you had to allow for that, and weigh down the paper into the large plastic tub, while soaking.

And having a burn pile made disposal of the sloppy mess easy.

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Originally Posted By bfoosh06:
Originally Posted By peacematu:


Referring to the bolded part above, do the 147gr Silvertips fail to expand in gel or when hitting a live being?

@bfoosh06



@peacematu
My bad, these were from decades ago.  The current Silver Tip designs might be better nowadays.  I apologize.

It sucks being an old Fart, Lol... I was "shooting" ( commenting ) from the hip.

I haven't bothered to recheck the Winc. 147gr ST , since the advent of the GD and HST designs. So it is likely the 147gr ST has improved.

When we tested them, waaaay back then , ( way before before having cameras on every phone, and cell phones , Lol )  all we had was 24+hr soaked, soggy wet newspaper.  And we tested a ton of .357 Mag. , 9MM, 40 S&W, 45 Auto, and 44 Magnum factory pistol loads. ( A bunch of rifle rounds as well. )

I would still use the soggy wet newspaper for a side by side comparison , but not for a repeatable / consistent test.

While the soggy newspaper testing isn't up to any standard, it does readily show the wound channel , and made for easy comparison between the various loads. It was the best us curious young bucks / amateurs had at the time.

FWIW, A glaring example was the .357 Rem. scalped JHP 125gr , v. the 9MM Winc +P+ 127gr JHP.... the velocity was the same from the 2 1/2" barreled Ruger revolvers used, but the bullet design was wildly different performance wise.

The .357 Scalloped JHP, will mess something up badly.... it was a far larger wound channel, compared to the 9MM +P+ 127gr JHP.  Total Penetration was the same... but night and day differences in the wound track.

Anyway, the 147gr Silvertip at that time would barely expand. And At the time, hardly any 9MM 147gr bullets would expand... heck, not all 9MM 115gr bullets would reliably expand.

When I say they wouldn't expand, I mean the JHP petals would barely open.  And they wouldn't increase the OAL width of the bullet... so to me no meaningful expansion.

But the 115gr Silvertips would expand about 70% of the time, and they would shed the jackets.  They also had shallow penetration.


So, again my bad , I was basing my comment on the older designs.

FWIW, the 155gr  40 S&W Silvertips would reliably expand , but shed their jacket everytime.  I still have all those recovered bullets.

I also captured 2 300WM 180gr ( ? ) Barnes X bullets that impacted each other, they twisted around each other... kinda cool to look at.  And they were tough enough to handle the combined impact. Impressive performance to me.

BTW, the expansion of the soggy newspaper is quite a bit while soaking, so you had to allow for that, and weigh down the paper into the large plastic tub, while soaking.

And having a burn pile made disposal of the sloppy mess easy.



@bfoosh06

Thanks for the generous post.

A LE agency, I think the San Diego Police, used one of the original 147gr hollow points back in the day. I don't know which one but I read they were happy with the performance.

That's interesting about the .357 mag and the 9mm +P+ with a similar velocity and bullet weight showing more than slight wound profiles.
Link Posted: 6/24/2023 1:04:12 AM EDT
[#48]
Link Posted: 9/27/2023 6:35:00 PM EDT
[#49]
these are on sale now at SG ammo.  $25 / box of 50 if you buy 10 boxes

i find them to be very accurate

nice to see ammo prices dropping some
Link Posted: 9/29/2023 2:54:18 PM EDT
[#50]
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Originally Posted By MFP_4073:

these are on sale now at SG ammo.  $25 / box of 50 if you buy 10 boxes

i find them to be very accurate

nice to see ammo prices dropping some
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Yeah that's good news. Silver Tips used to be absurdly over prices, like $45-50 per box of 50.

Winchester has a HUGE potential to revive and modernize this load.
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