[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Summary report of Sig failures ** Armorer gets repeatable AD pg8 ** (Page 4 of 8)
|
Well, Sig just updated the P320 manual to include instructions to carry without a round in the chamber and also rough handling can lead to a discharge. here |
|
I’ve been around a lot of the M17/M18 enough now to have a semi qualified basis for my report. I’ve not heard about nor have I witnessed an un commanded firing. I’ve not heard of nor witnessed an un commanded firing from a dropped pistol. What I’ve seen with troubling regularity is damage to the pistol from “cartridge failures”. I’ve experienced two personally on two different pistols. Ive witnessed/been present for an additional 6 others. The damage ranged from soiled underwear to blown extractors and varying degrees of grip module damage. The two I had didn’t cause any appreciable damage to the weapon. On all I’ve witnessed the majority have rendered the weapon inoperable due to a ballistically removed extractor and/or damaged grip module. First two pictures happened right beside me. The second two pictures are one of the my own two occurrences. Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
|
Quoted: I’ve been around a lot of the M17/M18 enough now to have a semi qualified basis for my report. I’ve not heard about nor have I witnessed an un commanded firing. I’ve not heard of nor witnessed an un commanded firing from a dropped pistol. What I’ve seen with troubling regularity is damage to the pistol from “cartridge failures”. I’ve experienced two personally on two different pistols. Ive witnessed/been present for an additional 6 others. The damage ranged from soiled underwear to blown extractors and varying degrees of grip module damage. The two I had didn’t cause any appreciable damage to the weapon. On all I’ve witnessed the majority have rendered the weapon inoperable due to a ballistically removed extractor and/or damaged grip module. First two pictures happened right beside me. The second two pictures are one of the my own two occurrences. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8525_jpeg-3524095.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8527_jpeg-3524096.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8528_jpeg-3524097.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8529_jpeg-3524098.JPG Do you think this is an issue with the pistol, or with M1152? That stuff is definitely spicier than M882 was. |
|
Quoted: I’ve been around a lot of the M17/M18 enough now to have a semi qualified basis for my report. I’ve not heard about nor have I witnessed an un commanded firing. I’ve not heard of nor witnessed an un commanded firing from a dropped pistol. What I’ve seen with troubling regularity is damage to the pistol from “cartridge failures”. I’ve experienced two personally on two different pistols. Ive witnessed/been present for an additional 6 others. The damage ranged from soiled underwear to blown extractors and varying degrees of grip module damage. The two I had didn’t cause any appreciable damage to the weapon. On all I’ve witnessed the majority have rendered the weapon inoperable due to a ballistically removed extractor and/or damaged grip module. First two pictures happened right beside me. The second two pictures are one of the my own two occurrences. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8525_jpeg-3524095.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8527_jpeg-3524096.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8528_jpeg-3524097.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8529_jpeg-3524098.JPG Did your two occur when you pulled the trigger or when the slide closed? Glad you are OK. |
|
Quoted: Do you think this is an issue with the pistol, or with M1152? That stuff is definitely spicier than M882 was. *Edit: I was wrong about M882 blowing guns up vs M1152. I thought old stocks were being used. The damaged pistols I’ve seen were predominantly M1152. The two I experienced were Winchester White Box. The pistol. The issue ammo is supposed to have a thicker case. “Old Milspec” is what seems to blow up. |
|
Quoted: Did your two occur when you pulled the trigger or when the slide closed? Glad you are OK. Quoted: Quoted: I’ve been around a lot of the M17/M18 enough now to have a semi qualified basis for my report. I’ve not heard about nor have I witnessed an un commanded firing. I’ve not heard of nor witnessed an un commanded firing from a dropped pistol. What I’ve seen with troubling regularity is damage to the pistol from “cartridge failures”. I’ve experienced two personally on two different pistols. Ive witnessed/been present for an additional 6 others. The damage ranged from soiled underwear to blown extractors and varying degrees of grip module damage. The two I had didn’t cause any appreciable damage to the weapon. On all I’ve witnessed the majority have rendered the weapon inoperable due to a ballistically removed extractor and/or damaged grip module. First two pictures happened right beside me. The second two pictures are one of the my own two occurrences. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8525_jpeg-3524095.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8527_jpeg-3524096.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8528_jpeg-3524097.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8529_jpeg-3524098.JPG Did your two occur when you pulled the trigger or when the slide closed? Glad you are OK. Thanks! When the trigger was pulled for mine and others I had the chance to talk to. I’ve never been watching the actual pistol from the side when one turned loose so I can’t say if they were out of battery or not. |
|
Quoted: Thanks! When the trigger was pulled for mine and others I had the chance to talk to. I’ve never been watching the actual pistol from the side when one turned loose so I can’t say if they were out of battery or not. It would be hard to see. Did the second gun take damage? |
|
Quoted: I’ve been around a lot of the M17/M18 enough now to have a semi qualified basis for my report. I’ve not heard about nor have I witnessed an un commanded firing. I’ve not heard of nor witnessed an un commanded firing from a dropped pistol. What I’ve seen with troubling regularity is damage to the pistol from “cartridge failures”. I’ve experienced two personally on two different pistols. Ive witnessed/been present for an additional 6 others. The damage ranged from soiled underwear to blown extractors and varying degrees of grip module damage. The two I had didn’t cause any appreciable damage to the weapon. On all I’ve witnessed the majority have rendered the weapon inoperable due to a ballistically removed extractor and/or damaged grip module. First two pictures happened right beside me. The second two pictures are one of the my own two occurrences. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8525_jpeg-3524095.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8527_jpeg-3524096.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8528_jpeg-3524097.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8529_jpeg-3524098.JPG AT the least, a spring strength tester for that recoil spring in that one would be a useful datapoint. |
|
Quoted: *Edit: I was wrong about M882 blowing guns up vs M1152. I thought old stocks were being used. The damaged pistols I’ve seen were predominantly M1152. The two I experienced were Winchester White Box. The pistol. The issue ammo is supposed to have a thicker case. “Old Milspec” is what seems to blow up. I think its also a function of both the M18's higher bore axis and lighter weight, but the M18/M1152 combo has noticeably snappier recoil than the M9/M882 did. Maybe we will get M9A4s out of all this. 
|
| Holy cheet! |
|
The Glock MHS had a safety. Attached File Really I think they should have just looked at what Beretta was offering with the A3/A4 line up. There were already huge stockpiles of spare parts for the Beretta 92s. There were holsters and light bearing holsters for the Beretta. Optics capability exists with the A4 model and Beretta offers a Centurion model which fills the role of the M18. That said the Glock or Sig were great choices either way. |
|
Quoted: The Glock MHS had a safety. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5474_jpeg-3524692.JPG Really I think they should have just looked at what Beretta was offering with the A3/A4 line up. There were already huge stockpiles of spare parts for the Beretta 92s. There were holsters and light bearing holsters for the Beretta. Optics capability exists with the A4 model and Beretta offers a Centurion model which fills the role of the M18. That said the Glock or Sig were great choices either way. You haven't read anything in this thread have you? Attached File |
|
Quoted: Well, Sig just updated the P320 manual to include instructions to carry without a round in the chamber and also rough handling can lead to a discharge. here Quoted: Well, Sig just updated the P320 manual to include instructions to carry without a round in the chamber and also rough handling can lead to a discharge. here So, SIG's position went from "It Ends Today" to "It ND's Today" in just a few weeks. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: The Glock MHS had a safety. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5474_jpeg-3524692.JPG Really I think they should have just looked at what Beretta was offering with the A3/A4 line up. There were already huge stockpiles of spare parts for the Beretta 92s. There were holsters and light bearing holsters for the Beretta. Optics capability exists with the A4 model and Beretta offers a Centurion model which fills the role of the M18. That said the Glock or Sig were great choices either way. You haven't read anything in this thread have you? /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/200-816.gif Oh yeah, I read it. I just don’t subscribe to tribal hysteria. |
|
Quoted: Testing of the strength of the recoil springs in that before and after would be very interesting. AT the least, a spring strength tester for that recoil spring in that one would be a useful datapoint. I don’t know how to test recoil springs. I do know that 4 of the pistols had around 500 rounds through them = new. |
|
Quoted: Oh yeah, I read it. I just don’t subscribe to tribal hysteria. Yeah, you do. You are just as hysterical in your defense of Sig and that's telling. It's one thing for Sig to design a mechanically defective handgun. That happens and in most cases its fixable. For me the real problem is Sig and Ron Cohen and the history of lying and gaslighting. The ridicule of their "It ends today" message means a few less police officers and civilians are going to be injured and the world has been made aware of the problems with this gun. Sigs near decade long campaign to silence critics has been exposed and I think its a safe bet that Sig will soon see dozens, if not hundreds of new lawsuits. Not to mention appeals of any lawsuits they won in the past. And thats just blawsuits over negligence causing injury. The spectre of class action lawsuits for selling a known defective pistol looms dark over Newington, NH. |
|
I have to say that posting the link to this thread as "the Tech thread" was incorrect. This is no more informative than the multiple GD threads with just as much mudslinging. I think one of our 320 owners in this thread has posted his gun passed the punch test. Have any other 320 owners tested their guns? |
|
Quoted: Well, Sig just updated the P320 manual to include instructions to carry without a round in the chamber I've seen this in the manuals of other manufacturers. It's not really a smoking gun... er, um, probably not the best turn of phrase to use. But seriously, Sig is not alone in putting this into their manual. |
|
Quoted: I've seen this in the manuals of other manufacturers. It's not really a smoking gun... er, um, probably not the best turn of phrase to use. But seriously, Sig is not alone in putting this into their manual. Attached File The excitement over catching Sig doing something is kinda funny given that nearly every manufacturer has CYA language in their owners manuals. |
|
Quoted: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/this-gif-793.gif The excitement over catching Sig doing something is kinda funny given that nearly every manufacturer has CYA language in their owners manuals. True, but most manufacturers don’t have to add it to the 15th revision of their user manual as a result of their guns being exposed for failing basic safety tests after refusing to acknowledge *any* issues with their design, and doubling down via their social media team while being run by a guy known for cutting corners and ruining once reputable manufacturers. Other than that, yes, totally the same. |
|
Quoted: True, but most manufacturers don’t have to add it to the 15th revision of their user manual as a result of their guns being exposed for failing basic safety tests after refusing to acknowledge *any* issues with their design, and doubling down via their social media team while being run by a guy known for cutting corners and ruining once reputable manufacturers. Other than that, yes, totally the same. What basic safety tests are stock P320's failing? (I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to.) |
|
Quoted: What basic safety tests are stock P320's failing? (I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to.) Quoted: Quoted: True, but most manufacturers don’t have to add it to the 15th revision of their user manual as a result of their guns being exposed for failing basic safety tests after refusing to acknowledge *any* issues with their design, and doubling down via their social media team while being run by a guy known for cutting corners and ruining once reputable manufacturers. Other than that, yes, totally the same. What basic safety tests are stock P320's failing? (I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to.) Some Sig P320s are failing this test:  Testing two P320's for Uncommanded Discharge: One PASS, one FAIL Basically, some unknown percentage of P320s do not have a functioning striker block safety. |
|
Quoted: Yeah, you do. You are just as hysterical in your defense of Sig and that's telling. It's one thing for Sig to design a mechanically defective handgun. That happens and in most cases its fixable. For me the real problem is Sig and Ron Cohen and the history of lying and gaslighting. The ridicule of their "It ends today" message means a few less police officers and civilians are going to be injured and the world has been made aware of the problems with this gun. Sigs near decade long campaign to silence critics has been exposed and I think its a safe bet that Sig will soon see dozens, if not hundreds of new lawsuits. Not to mention appeals of any lawsuits they won in the past. And thats just blawsuits over negligence causing injury. The spectre of class action lawsuits for selling a known defective pistol looms dark over Newington, NH. Quoted: Quoted: Oh yeah, I read it. I just don’t subscribe to tribal hysteria. Yeah, you do. You are just as hysterical in your defense of Sig and that's telling. It's one thing for Sig to design a mechanically defective handgun. That happens and in most cases its fixable. For me the real problem is Sig and Ron Cohen and the history of lying and gaslighting. The ridicule of their "It ends today" message means a few less police officers and civilians are going to be injured and the world has been made aware of the problems with this gun. Sigs near decade long campaign to silence critics has been exposed and I think its a safe bet that Sig will soon see dozens, if not hundreds of new lawsuits. Not to mention appeals of any lawsuits they won in the past. And thats just blawsuits over negligence causing injury. The spectre of class action lawsuits for selling a known defective pistol looms dark over Newington, NH. I’m not an Sig fanboy. I own pistols from all most all major manufactures. I’ve just been around long enough to remember when all this hysteria surrounded Glock in the 80s and 90s as law enforcement switched from revolvers and heavy DA triggers that were 12lbs and 10lbs to a short striker action trigger that was 5.5lbs. Reports of the Glock being unsafe and just going off were all over news and magazines. I remember when Glock leg was a term in common usage. The only changes Glock ever made was to offer heavier triggers for people who refused to adapt. They also changed some verbiage in their user manual and started refering to Glocks as have a “safe action” firing system and showing the multiple internal safeties. Then when Glock really started getting popular with the public you had the Glock kaboom jokes due to the unsupported chambers and people using reloads with lead cast bullets. That goes on to this day. You glock fan boys going at Sig are like the 1911 boomers or CZ fanboys ragging on Glocks. All of it is dumb brand/type tribalism. The P320 is the new kid with an ever lighter and shorter trigger than Glock so now here we are repeating history. Attached File Attached File Attached File 
|
|
Quoted: I’m not an Sig fanboy. I own pistols from all most all major manufactures. I’ve just been around long enough to remember when all this hysteria surrounded Glock in the 80s and 90s as law enforcement switched from revolvers and heavy DA triggers that were 12lbs and 10lbs to a short striker action trigger that was 5.5lbs. Reports of the Glock being unsafe and just going off were all over news and magazines. I remember when Glock leg was a term in common usage. The only changes Glock ever made was to offer heavier triggers for people who refused to adapt. They also changed some verbiage in their user manual and started refering to Glocks as have a “safe action” firing system and showing the multiple internal safeties. Then when Glock really started getting popular with the public you had the Glock kaboom jokes due to the unsupported chambers and people using reloads with lead cast bullets. That goes on to this day. You glock fan boys going at Sig are like the 1911 boomers or CZ fanboys ragging on Glocks. All of it is dumb brand/type tribalism. The P320 is the new kid with an ever lighter and shorter trigger than Glock so now here we are repeating history. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5484_jpeg-3526374.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5485_jpeg-3526375.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5486_jpeg-3526376.JPG https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/burny2/1252222033610.gif Hey look, another obsessive rant about Glock that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic being discussed. |
|
Quoted: Some Sig P320s are failing this test:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P14w4jTsHIBasically, some unknown percentage of P320s do not have a functioning striker block safety. In addition to this, sig apparently performed an in house vibration test that indicated the striker was impacting primers at an unusually high rate. I believe it’s been posted here. |
|
Quoted: Explain again to me how another brand catching negative attention clears SIG of whatever is going on with the P320? Reading comp is a struggle for you isn’t it? Please show me where I said that or even insulated that. What I said was, all this hysteria over Sig now is exactly like the hysteria Glock endured when it first started making getting adopted by various law enforcement agencies. History repeats itself. I was accused of being a Sig fan boy, I was pointing out that I didn’t fall for the Glock is a dangerous and unsafe firearm back then, I’m not going to jump on this hysteria train this time around with Sig this time. I owned Glocks back then, I knew it was a safe and reliable firearm based on my own experiences. Likewise I own P320s now and all of my experience tells me that it is a safe and reliable pistol. Until I see actual proof, no amount of poorly shot videos of a guy in his basement jamming a punch into a partially disassembled P320, or grainy videos of people holstering their gun, or internet banter is going to convince me otherwise. That goes for the P320, the Glock series or any other firearm that I own or have extensive experience with. The drop firing thing is what I consider proof. Repeatable results in a controlled setting, documentation that the military had discovered the issue during the MHS testing. No doubt Sig fucked up in how they handled the drop firing issue but that doesn’t automatically make them guilty here. They are two different accusations. They can be guilty of one design flaw and be the victim of a litigious society regarding another part of the design at the same time. |
|
Quoted: Hey look, another obsessive rant about Glock that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic being discussed. Quoted: Quoted: I’m not an Sig fanboy. I own pistols from all most all major manufactures. I’ve just been around long enough to remember when all this hysteria surrounded Glock in the 80s and 90s as law enforcement switched from revolvers and heavy DA triggers that were 12lbs and 10lbs to a short striker action trigger that was 5.5lbs. Reports of the Glock being unsafe and just going off were all over news and magazines. I remember when Glock leg was a term in common usage. The only changes Glock ever made was to offer heavier triggers for people who refused to adapt. They also changed some verbiage in their user manual and started refering to Glocks as have a “safe action” firing system and showing the multiple internal safeties. Then when Glock really started getting popular with the public you had the Glock kaboom jokes due to the unsupported chambers and people using reloads with lead cast bullets. That goes on to this day. You glock fan boys going at Sig are like the 1911 boomers or CZ fanboys ragging on Glocks. All of it is dumb brand/type tribalism. The P320 is the new kid with an ever lighter and shorter trigger than Glock so now here we are repeating history. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5484_jpeg-3526374.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5485_jpeg-3526375.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5486_jpeg-3526376.JPG https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/burny2/1252222033610.gif Hey look, another obsessive rant about Glock that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic being discussed. Attached File Somebody is triggered I love Glocks. They are awesome. I love P320s, they are awesome. I also love the USP series, Beretta 92 series. You are allowed to like more than one brand. Try it, it’s okay. |
|
Quoted: Reading comp is a struggle for you isn’t it? Maybe my reading comp IS bad because I’m still missing your point. Explain to me again please how my poor literacy absolves SIG from whatever is (or isn’t) wrong with the P320. I didn’t read the entirety of your overly sensitive post. |
|
Quoted: Reading comp is a struggle for you isn’t it? Please show me where I said that or even insulated that. What I said was, all this hysteria over Sig now is exactly like the hysteria Glock endured when it first started making getting adopted by various law enforcement agencies. History repeats itself. I was accused of being a Sig fan boy, I was pointing out that I didn’t fall for the Glock is a dangerous and unsafe firearm back then, I’m not going to jump on this hysteria train this time around with Sig this time. I owned Glocks back then, I knew it was a safe and reliable firearm based on my own experiences. Likewise I own P320s now and all of my experience tells me that it is a safe and reliable pistol. Until I see actual proof, no amount of poorly shot videos of a guy in his basement jamming a punch into a partially disassembled P320, or grainy videos of people holstering their gun, or internet banter is going to convince me otherwise. That goes for the P320, the Glock series or any other firearm that I own or have extensive experience with. The drop firing thing is what I consider proof. Repeatable results in a controlled setting, documentation that the military had discovered the issue during the MHS testing. No doubt Sig fucked up in how they handled the drop firing issue but that doesn’t automatically make them guilty here. They are two different accusations. They can be guilty of one design flaw and be the victim of a litigious society regarding another part of the design at the same time. While I appreciate your blind ignorance and reliance on your sole experiences with a statistically insignificant number of personally owned P320’s, this post is about reported issues with the platform from various sources, not your personal experiences. I hate to break it to you, but the only reason you get any attention or responses here, is because of your incessant trolling. Nobody cares about your sig collection. |
|
Quoted: Maybe my reading comp IS bad because I’m still missing your point. Explain to me again please how my poor literacy absolves SIG from whatever is (or isn’t) wrong with the P320. I didn’t read the entirety of your overly sensitive post. Quoted: Quoted: Reading comp is a struggle for you isn’t it? Maybe my reading comp IS bad because I’m still missing your point. Explain to me again please how my poor literacy absolves SIG from whatever is (or isn’t) wrong with the P320. I didn’t read the entirety of your overly sensitive post. So then you didn’t really comprehend what I wrote but yet you still felt the need to comment as if you had. Intresting. Attached File |
|
Quoted: So then you didn’t really comprehend what I wrote but yet you still felt the need to comment as if you had. Intresting. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5488_jpeg-3526457.JPG You say that you’re unemotional and rational on this topic, but post stuff like this. I’m not sure how to resolve those competing ideas. |
|
Quoted: While I appreciate your blind ignorance and reliance on your sole experiences with a statistically insignificant number of personally owned P320’s, this post is about reported issues with the platform from various sources, not your personal experiences. I hate to break it to you, but the only reason you get any attention or responses here, is because of your incessant trolling. Nobody cares about your sig collection. Quoted: Quoted: Reading comp is a struggle for you isn’t it? Please show me where I said that or even insulated that. What I said was, all this hysteria over Sig now is exactly like the hysteria Glock endured when it first started making getting adopted by various law enforcement agencies. History repeats itself. I was accused of being a Sig fan boy, I was pointing out that I didn’t fall for the Glock is a dangerous and unsafe firearm back then, I’m not going to jump on this hysteria train this time around with Sig this time. I owned Glocks back then, I knew it was a safe and reliable firearm based on my own experiences. Likewise I own P320s now and all of my experience tells me that it is a safe and reliable pistol. Until I see actual proof, no amount of poorly shot videos of a guy in his basement jamming a punch into a partially disassembled P320, or grainy videos of people holstering their gun, or internet banter is going to convince me otherwise. That goes for the P320, the Glock series or any other firearm that I own or have extensive experience with. The drop firing thing is what I consider proof. Repeatable results in a controlled setting, documentation that the military had discovered the issue during the MHS testing. No doubt Sig fucked up in how they handled the drop firing issue but that doesn’t automatically make them guilty here. They are two different accusations. They can be guilty of one design flaw and be the victim of a litigious society regarding another part of the design at the same time. While I appreciate your blind ignorance and reliance on your sole experiences with a statistically insignificant number of personally owned P320’s, this post is about reported issues with the platform from various sources, not your personal experiences. I hate to break it to you, but the only reason you get any attention or responses here, is because of your incessant trolling. Nobody cares about your sig collection. Nobody is trolling. You are calling it that in an attempt to drive a narrative. You can’t really find fault with what I am saying and argue against the fact that this could all be litigation driven hysteria because you don’t actually have any proof that Sig has a design flaw outside of people claiming their guns just went off and some holiday inn engineers filming themselves tinkering with a partially disassembled P320. Everything you and others have posted is nothing more than speculation. You’re speculating, guessing. So somehow me pointing that out is trolling? That’s it and to claim this thread is a discussion when people are posting Sig memes is intellectually dishonest. This thread is mostly made up of brand loyalist, guessing what might be wrong with a pistol, cracking jokes on a brand and agencies/people who aren’t right along side you with torches and pitchforks. |
|
Quoted: You say that you’re unemotional and rational on this topic, but post stuff like this. I’m not sure how to resolve those competing ideas. Quoted: Quoted: So then you didn’t really comprehend what I wrote but yet you still felt the need to comment as if you had. Intresting. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5488_jpeg-3526457.JPG You say that you’re unemotional and rational on this topic, but post stuff like this. I’m not sure how to resolve those competing ideas. I’m simply pointing out the hypocrisy. You claimed you didn’t bother to read my entire post but went on to put words in my mouth as if you had. |
|
Quoted: True, but most manufacturers don’t have to add it to the 15th revision of their user manual.... Quoted: Quoted: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/this-gif-793.gif The excitement over catching Sig doing something is kinda funny given that nearly every manufacturer has CYA language in their owners manuals. True, but most manufacturers don’t have to add it to the 15th revision of their user manual.... Sure they do. Revisions to owners manuals aren't anything new. Lawyers doing what they are paid to do. Now, when Sig starts rollmarking warnings on the gun itself it will be news. Ruger does that, but you aren't hearing the OH NOES! MUH SAFETY! over that. |
|
Quoted: Sure they do. Revisions to owners manuals aren't anything new. Lawyers doing what they are paid to do. Now, when Sig starts rollmarking warnings on the gun itself it will be news. Ruger does that, but you aren't hearing the OH NOES! MUH SAFETY! over that. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/this-gif-793.gif The excitement over catching Sig doing something is kinda funny given that nearly every manufacturer has CYA language in their owners manuals. True, but most manufacturers don’t have to add it to the 15th revision of their user manual.... Sure they do. Revisions to owners manuals aren't anything new. Lawyers doing what they are paid to do. Now, when Sig starts rollmarking warnings on the gun itself it will be news. Ruger does that, but you aren't hearing the OH NOES! MUH SAFETY! over that. I think that would be a mistake. They need to take the approach Glock did in the early 90s. Start referring to the various safety mechanisms. Glock was smart to trademark the term “safe action” for describing their pistols firing mechanism. Whoever is in charge over there at Sig isn’t do a great job, that entire “it ends today” post on X was cringy and gaslit a lot of people which just caused more fire. It is the Streisand effect on full display at this point. |
|
Quoted: I’m not an Sig fanboy. Quoted: I’m not an Sig fanboy. Sure. I own pistols from all most all major manufactures. I’ve just been around long enough to remember when all this hysteria surrounded Glock in the 80s and 90s as law enforcement switched from revolvers and heavy DA triggers that were 12lbs and 10lbs to a short striker action trigger that was 5.5lbs. Reports of the Glock being unsafe and just going off were all over news and magazines. I remember when Glock leg was a term in common usage. Comparing that to the current Sig P320/M16/M18 debaucle is bullshit. Glocks werem't firing uncommanded. It was clearly a training issue. If it was a design issue, that design has remained unchanged. The only changes Glock ever made was to offer heavier triggers for people who refused to adapt. Well, there you go.  They also changed some verbiage in their user manual and started refering to Glocks as have a “safe action” firing system and showing the multiple internal safeties. Then when Glock really started getting popular with the public you had the Glock kaboom jokes due to the unsupported chambers and people using reloads with lead cast bullets. That goes on to this day. Glock isn't the only company to warn against using reloads, nor voiding the warranty if you do. There are obvious reasons why a company would do that. You glock fan boys going at Sig are like the 1911 boomers or CZ fanboys ragging on Glocks. All of it is dumb brand/type tribalism. The P320 is the new kid with an ever lighter and shorter trigger than Glock so now here we are repeating history. Horseshit. You think you are the only guy that owns pistols from other manufacturers? Dude, I'm 67 and have never been a "1911 boomer" even though I own five of them. I think Jeff Cooper was a fat tub of horseshit and chose the Hi Power over any 1911. I owned three Sigs before I ever touched a Glock and didn't buy my first Glock until 2010. The 320 has faults. Sig hasn't accepted that there are faults. Sig hasn't proposed a fix, instead blaming the user. Sig deserves every word of ridicule that the firearm community can muster. You call it "dumb brand/type tribalism", thats laughable. If you read the threads about the 320, you see numerous posts extolling the excellent reputation of Sig products like the 220, 226, 228, 229, etc. and the critical comments are clearly directed at the plastic Sigs and the management of Sig under Ron Cohen, you know the convicted felon Ron Cohen. |
|
Quoted: Nobody is trolling. You are calling it that in an attempt to drive a narrative. You can’t really find fault with what I am saying and argue against the fact that this could all be litigation driven hysteria because you don’t actually have any proof that Sig has a design flaw outside of people claiming their guns just went off and some holiday inn engineers filming themselves tinkering with a partially disassembled P320. Everything you and others have posted is nothing more than speculation. You’re speculating, guessing. So somehow me pointing that out is trolling? That’s it and to claim this thread is a discussion when people are posting Sig memes is intellectually dishonest. This thread is mostly made up of brand loyalist, guessing what might be wrong with a pistol, cracking jokes on a brand and agencies/people who aren’t right along side you with torches and pitchforks. There is zero speculation that sigs striker blocks are not functioning in certain pistols, and Sigs own in house vibration test clearly shows primer impacts. Sorry you don’t like the testing conditions. To me, and obviously others here, it’s at least worth the discussion. As the thread title should tell you. These are two of the things being discussed in this thread. If your opinion is that these tests don’t mean anything, you’ve spoken your peace. Most people at that point bow out, rather than continuously interjecting with rants about other brands and posting memes and gifs. Regardless, some of us are trying to discuss that, along with anecdotal evidence from various videos. You’re intentionally going out of your way to disrupt it. The last striker gun I carried daily was a P320. Still carry a P365 off the clock. Your insinuation that only tribal Glock loyalists are posting here is flat out false. Yet with zero factual evidence of any of this, you’ve accused multiple people here of just that, more than once. To me, yeah, that’s trolling. |
|
Quoted: I’ve been around a lot of the M17/M18 enough now to have a semi qualified basis for my report. I’ve not heard about nor have I witnessed an un commanded firing. I’ve not heard of nor witnessed an un commanded firing from a dropped pistol. What I’ve seen with troubling regularity is damage to the pistol from “cartridge failures”. I’ve experienced two personally on two different pistols. Ive witnessed/been present for an additional 6 others. The damage ranged from soiled underwear to blown extractors and varying degrees of grip module damage. The two I had didn’t cause any appreciable damage to the weapon. On all I’ve witnessed the majority have rendered the weapon inoperable due to a ballistically removed extractor and/or damaged grip module. First two pictures happened right beside me. The second two pictures are one of the my own two occurrences. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8525_jpeg-3524095.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8527_jpeg-3524096.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8528_jpeg-3524097.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/583190/IMG_8529_jpeg-3524098.JPG Out of battery firing. |
|
Quoted: There is zero speculation that sigs striker blocks are not functioning in certain pistols, and Sigs own in house vibration test clearly shows primer impacts. Sorry you don’t like the testing conditions. To me, and obviously others here, it’s at least worth the discussion. As the thread title should tell you. These are two of the things being discussed in this thread. If your opinion is that these tests don’t mean anything, you’ve spoken your peace. Most people at that point bow out, rather than continuously interjecting with rants about other brands and posting memes and gifs. Regardless, some of us are trying to discuss that, along with anecdotal evidence from various videos. You’re intentionally going out of your way to disrupt it. The last striker gun I carried daily was a P320. Still carry a P365 off the clock. Your insinuation that only tribal Glock loyalists are posting here is flat out false. Yet with zero factual evidence of any of this, you’ve accused multiple people here of just that, more than once. To me, yeah, that’s trolling. He's just posting nonsensical 3000 word replies and trolling you with old glock memes to piss you off. His goal is to get the thread shut down because he thinks closing out discussion about sig is beneficial to his favorite company. |
|
Quoted: He's just posting nonsensical 3000 word replies and trolling you with old glock memes to piss you off. His goal is to get the thread shut down because he thinks closing out discussion about sig is beneficial to his favorite company. Quoted: Quoted: There is zero speculation that sigs striker blocks are not functioning in certain pistols, and Sigs own in house vibration test clearly shows primer impacts. Sorry you don’t like the testing conditions. To me, and obviously others here, it’s at least worth the discussion. As the thread title should tell you. These are two of the things being discussed in this thread. If your opinion is that these tests don’t mean anything, you’ve spoken your peace. Most people at that point bow out, rather than continuously interjecting with rants about other brands and posting memes and gifs. Regardless, some of us are trying to discuss that, along with anecdotal evidence from various videos. You’re intentionally going out of your way to disrupt it. The last striker gun I carried daily was a P320. Still carry a P365 off the clock. Your insinuation that only tribal Glock loyalists are posting here is flat out false. Yet with zero factual evidence of any of this, you’ve accused multiple people here of just that, more than once. To me, yeah, that’s trolling. He's just posting nonsensical 3000 word replies and trolling you with old glock memes to piss you off. His goal is to get the thread shut down because he thinks closing out discussion about sig is beneficial to his favorite company. So difference of opinion is trolling. Okay. If you say so I guess. Also not my favorite company. That title belongs to Beretta but don’t let that stop you from the continued personal attacks. |
|
Quoted: So difference of opinion is trolling...... A difference of opinion hasn't been your argument. You keep trying to tie "Glock leg" and other Glock negligent discharges with the current 320 issue. Dude, that laughable and you even acknowledged that when you wrote "The only changes Glock ever made was to offer heavier triggers for people who refused to adapt." Thats a training issue, not a product defect. The Glock issues were a user training issue. The Sig P320 issue is a design issue. If you disagree, then explain why you disagree. Simply posting BUT, BUT, BUT TRIBALISM! isn't a difference of opinion, but attempting to gaslight the problem. |
|
Quoted: A difference of opinion hasn't been your argument. You keep trying to tie "Glock leg" and other Glock negligent discharges with the current 320 issue. Dude, that laughable and you even acknowledged that when you wrote "The only changes Glock ever made was to offer heavier triggers for people who refused to adapt." Thats a training issue, not a product defect. The Glock issues were a user training issue. The Sig P320 issue is a design issue. If you disagree, then explain why you disagree. Simply posting BUT, BUT, BUT TRIBALISM! isn't a difference of opinion, but attempting to gaslight the problem. Quoted: Quoted: So difference of opinion is trolling...... A difference of opinion hasn't been your argument. You keep trying to tie "Glock leg" and other Glock negligent discharges with the current 320 issue. Dude, that laughable and you even acknowledged that when you wrote "The only changes Glock ever made was to offer heavier triggers for people who refused to adapt." Thats a training issue, not a product defect. The Glock issues were a user training issue. The Sig P320 issue is a design issue. If you disagree, then explain why you disagree. Simply posting BUT, BUT, BUT TRIBALISM! isn't a difference of opinion, but attempting to gaslight the problem. I’ve already posted why I disagree. You Glock fanboys either cherry pick one thing I write or make up things I didn’t say or don’t fully read what I write and misquote me. Show me actual proof that a design issue exists. You can’t. All you can do is speculate. That’s it. What you are calling proof isn’t proof of anything. It’s circumstantial at best. The reason I brought up Glock is because Glock suffered the same exact claims about them as Sig is suffering now about the P320. When the dust settled it was all hysteria. |