[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Summary report of Sig failures ** Armorer gets repeatable AD pg8 ** (Page 3 of 8)
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What is interesting is they are adopting the M17 with a manual safety. I suspect that safety is there to help reduce officer induced NDs. Much like Glock had to do back in the 80s and 90s offering certain departments 12, 10, and 8 pound triggers. A hardware solution for a software problem. |
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DPS cares more about looking good and having a gun that matches their brown uniform than they do about the actual functionality of the firearm. They’re the best dressed traffic cops you’ll ever meet. |
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Quoted: DPS cares more about looking good and having a gun that matches their brown uniform than they do about the actual functionality of the firearm. They’re the best dressed traffic cops you’ll ever meet. Quoted: DPS cares more about looking good and having a gun that matches their brown uniform than they do about the actual functionality of the firearm. They’re the best dressed traffic cops you’ll ever meet. I don’t remember where I saw it yesterday but supposedly their M17s will be black with the DPS badge and say Texas DPS. |
 that’s a great pick up, the optic is super nice!
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Quoted: Yep, they should be able to easily tell where the bullet from the uncommanded discharge will strike.  Quoted: Quoted: that’s a great pick up, the optic is super nice!Yep, they should be able to easily tell where the bullet from the uncommanded discharge will strike. There are videos, recent videos of officers shooting people, shooting at people when they thought they had their taser in their hand. Consider that for a second, tasers are light, the grip feels completely different and is shorter than most service pistols and that isn’t even taking into account sight picture differences and other physical differences between a taser and service pistol. To the point taser now offers a bright yellow version to hopefully mitigate this mistake. If officers can make that mistake, their finger on the trigger, a jacket tail or some other object in their holster causing the firearm to discharge isn’t a huge leap. Now that I think about it, there is a video out there with a P320 just going off except when you slow the body cam down it is the officer with their finger on the trigger pulling under stress. The problem as I see it isn’t a hardware one it is a software issue. Better training is needed. |
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Quoted: There are videos, recent videos of officers shooting people, shooting at people when they thought they had their taser in their hand. Consider that for a second, tasers are light, the grip feels completely different and is shorter than most service pistols and that isn’t even taking into account sight picture differences and other physical differences between a taser and service pistol. To the point taser now offers a bright yellow version to hopefully mitigate this mistake. If officers can make that mistake, their finger on the trigger, a jacket tail or some other object in their holster causing the firearm to discharge isn’t a huge leap. Now that I think about it, there is a video out there with a P320 just going off except when you slow the body cam down it is the officer with their finger on the trigger pulling under stress. The problem as I see it isn’t a hardware one it is a software issue. Better training is needed. For someone, who just on page 2, was complaining about others making assumptions….you sure do post a lot of assumptions. |
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Quoted: For someone, who just on page 2, was complaining about others making assumptions….you sure do post a lot of assumptions. Quoted: Quoted: There are videos, recent videos of officers shooting people, shooting at people when they thought they had their taser in their hand. Consider that for a second, tasers are light, the grip feels completely different and is shorter than most service pistols and that isn’t even taking into account sight picture differences and other physical differences between a taser and service pistol. To the point taser now offers a bright yellow version to hopefully mitigate this mistake. If officers can make that mistake, their finger on the trigger, a jacket tail or some other object in their holster causing the firearm to discharge isn’t a huge leap. Now that I think about it, there is a video out there with a P320 just going off except when you slow the body cam down it is the officer with their finger on the trigger pulling under stress. The problem as I see it isn’t a hardware one it is a software issue. Better training is needed. For someone, who just on page 2, was complaining about others making assumptions….you sure do post a lot of assumptions. I wasn’t complaining and who exactly did I make as assumption about on here? You seem very emotionally invested about this subject. You haven't actually added anything to the discussion you’ve just posted fanboy quips. Attached File |
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Wow, that is big news. That is a well know outfit. The ramifications of them banning the P320 will echo though the training community. Attached File |
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Quoted: There are videos, recent videos of officers shooting people, shooting at people when they thought they had their taser in their hand. Consider that for a second, tasers are light, the grip feels completely different and is shorter than most service pistols and that isn’t even taking into account sight picture differences and other physical differences between a taser and service pistol. To the point taser now offers a bright yellow version to hopefully mitigate this mistake. If officers can make that mistake, their finger on the trigger, a jacket tail or some other object in their holster causing the firearm to discharge isn’t a huge leap. Now that I think about it, there is a video out there with a P320 just going off except when you slow the body cam down it is the officer with their finger on the trigger pulling under stress. The problem as I see it isn’t a hardware one it is a software issue. Better training is needed. Yeah, I know, hur dur, cops dumb. That explains why there are also so many videos of and lawsuits about Glocks, S&W M&Ps, Walter PDPs, HK VP9s, etc., going off in the holster without a trigger pull. That is also why the P320 complaints, videos, and lawsuits only involve cops and never military, competition shooters, people taking classes, or plain regular citizens. |
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Quoted: I wasn’t complaining and who exactly did I make as assumption about on here? You seem very emotionally invested about this subject. You haven't actually added anything to the discussion you’ve just posted fanboy quips. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_0395_png-3522290.JPG Quoted: I wasn’t complaining and who exactly did I make as assumption about on here? You seem very emotionally invested about this subject. You haven't actually added anything to the discussion you’ve just posted fanboy quips. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_0395_png-3522290.JPG Well for one……. Quoted: There are videos, recent videos of officers shooting people, shooting at people when they thought they had their taser in their hand. Consider that for a second, tasers are light, the grip feels completely different and is shorter than most service pistols and that isn’t even taking into account sight picture differences and other physical differences between a taser and service pistol. To the point taser now offers a bright yellow version to hopefully mitigate this mistake. If officers can make that mistake, their finger on the trigger, a jacket tail or some other object in their holster causing the firearm to discharge isn’t a huge leap. Now that I think about it, there is a video out there with a P320 just going off except when you slow the body cam down it is the officer with their finger on the trigger pulling under stress. The problem as I see it isn’t a hardware one it is a software issue. Better training is needed. I was equally confused after reading your dissertations on page two as to why you called me the emotional one, but I just realized you use a lot of words that you don’t understand the meaning of, so it’s starting to make more sense. |
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Quoted: Well for one……. I was equally confused after reading your dissertations on page two as to why you called me the emotional one, but I just realized you use a lot of words that you don’t understand the meaning of, so it’s starting to make more sense. Quoted: Quoted: I wasn’t complaining and who exactly did I make as assumption about on here? You seem very emotionally invested about this subject. You haven't actually added anything to the discussion you’ve just posted fanboy quips. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_0395_png-3522290.JPG Well for one……. Quoted: There are videos, recent videos of officers shooting people, shooting at people when they thought they had their taser in their hand. Consider that for a second, tasers are light, the grip feels completely different and is shorter than most service pistols and that isn’t even taking into account sight picture differences and other physical differences between a taser and service pistol. To the point taser now offers a bright yellow version to hopefully mitigate this mistake. If officers can make that mistake, their finger on the trigger, a jacket tail or some other object in their holster causing the firearm to discharge isn’t a huge leap. Now that I think about it, there is a video out there with a P320 just going off except when you slow the body cam down it is the officer with their finger on the trigger pulling under stress. The problem as I see it isn’t a hardware one it is a software issue. Better training is needed. I was equally confused after reading your dissertations on page two as to why you called me the emotional one, but I just realized you use a lot of words that you don’t understand the meaning of, so it’s starting to make more sense. Again, who did I make an assumption about in this discussion here. Reading is fundamental. More useless fan boy rambling from you. So me on the doll where the 320 touched you. |
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Quoted: Yeah, I know, hur dur, cops dumb. That explains why there are also so many videos of and lawsuits about Glocks, S&W M&Ps, Walter PDPs, HK VP9s, etc., going off in the holster without a trigger pull. That is also why the P320 complaints, videos, and lawsuits only involve cops and never military, competition shooters, people taking classes, or plain regular citizens. Quoted: Quoted: There are videos, recent videos of officers shooting people, shooting at people when they thought they had their taser in their hand. Consider that for a second, tasers are light, the grip feels completely different and is shorter than most service pistols and that isn’t even taking into account sight picture differences and other physical differences between a taser and service pistol. To the point taser now offers a bright yellow version to hopefully mitigate this mistake. If officers can make that mistake, their finger on the trigger, a jacket tail or some other object in their holster causing the firearm to discharge isn’t a huge leap. Now that I think about it, there is a video out there with a P320 just going off except when you slow the body cam down it is the officer with their finger on the trigger pulling under stress. The problem as I see it isn’t a hardware one it is a software issue. Better training is needed. Yeah, I know, hur dur, cops dumb. That explains why there are also so many videos of and lawsuits about Glocks, S&W M&Ps, Walter PDPs, HK VP9s, etc., going off in the holster without a trigger pull. That is also why the P320 complaints, videos, and lawsuits only involve cops and never military, competition shooters, people taking classes, or plain regular citizens. There were law suits over Glocks, lots of negative media over Glocks. Glock literally moved into the basement of an NYPD building to “fix” Glocks that were being labeled as defective and dangerous. The fix was to put a heavy 8-10-12lb trigger in them. Cops were shooting themselves with Glocks long before the P320. The difference is the internet wasn’t a thing yet. Was the Glock an unsafe pistol or were officers poorly trained? Which is it? It can’t be both. Glock leg is an actual term. The selective memory of the fanboys is interesting. Before the P320 the Glock was the butt of jokes. Everything from Glock grenades to Glock leg to dog chew toys. I am starting to wonder if some of you are suffering trauma or ptsd from decades of Glock hate to the point that now the P320 is the butt of jokes you are finding it therapeutic to bash another pistol. Attached File |
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Quoted: There were law suits over Glocks, lots of negative media over Glocks. Glock literally moved into the basement of an NYPD building to “fix” Glocks that were being labeled as defective and dangerous. The fix was to put a heavy 8-10-12lb trigger in them. Cops were shooting themselves with Glocks long before the P320. The difference is the internet wasn’t a thing yet. Was the Glock an unsafe pistol or were officers poorly trained? Which is it? It can’t be both. Glock leg is an actual term. The selective memory of the fanboys is interesting. Before the P320 the Glock was the butt of jokes. Everything from Glock grenades to Glock leg to dog chew toys. I am starting to wonder if some of you are suffering trauma or ptsd from decades of Glock hate to the point that now the P320 is the butt of jokes you are finding it therapeutic to bash another pistol. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5462_jpeg-3522396.JPG Guys, he’s right. This is all the fault of Glock and cops. MK318, you have my apologies. I was going to call Sig and let them know *you* single handedly ended it for them, but I figure you deserve to tell them yourself. 603-610-3000 I don’t have Ron’s extension, but I’m sure the folks there can help you out. Well done sir. |
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Quoted: There were law suits over Glocks, lots of negative media over Glocks. Glock literally moved into the basement of an NYPD building to “fix” Glocks that were being labeled as defective and dangerous. The fix was to put a heavy 8-10-12lb trigger in them. Cops were shooting themselves with Glocks long before the P320. The difference is the internet wasn’t a thing yet. Was the Glock an unsafe pistol or were officers poorly trained? Which is it? It can’t be both. Glock leg is an actual term. The selective memory of the fanboys is interesting. Before the P320 the Glock was the butt of jokes. Everything from Glock grenades to Glock leg to dog chew toys. I am starting to wonder if some of you are suffering trauma or ptsd from decades of Glock hate to the point that now the P320 is the butt of jokes you are finding it therapeutic to bash another pistol. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5462_jpeg-3522396.JPG Maybe this has been discussed, but the 320 is being accused of an internal failure causing an uncommanded discharge. Glock leg is literally someone/something pulling a trigger. If the 320 is experiencing uncommanded discharges without a trigger pull, then this is an apples to oranges comparison. The 320 isn't getting a wrath of shit simply because a small contingent of tribal retarded Glock fans hate it. It's a mediocre pistol in the most competitive segment of the industry. Sig Sauer is nowhere near the company it was 20 years ago and Ron Cohen is a douche. Then add in the fact that the 320 is attacking its owners, the "it ends today" social media disaster and that better explains the 320 hatred. |
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Quoted: Guys, he’s right. This is all the fault of Glock and cops. MK318, you have my apologies. I was going to call Sig and let them know *you* single handedly ended it for them, but I figure you deserve to tell them yourself. 603-610-3000 I don’t have Ron’s extension, but I’m sure the folks there can help you out. Well done sir. Stop engaging with him. His MO is to blatantly troll with wrong information and bait personal arguments on all of the sig threads in the tech forum to get them shut down. He's already done it 2-3 times. There is a lot of good info on this thread and it would be better to not lose it. |
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Quoted: Maybe this has been discussed, but the 320 is being accused of an internal failure causing an uncommanded discharge. Glock leg is literally someone/something pulling a trigger. If the 320 is experiencing uncommanded discharges without a trigger pull, then this is an apples to oranges comparison. The 320 isn't getting a wrath of shit simply because a small contingent of tribal retarded Glock fans hate it. It's a mediocre pistol in the most competitive segment of the industry. Sig Sauer is nowhere near the company it was 20 years ago and Ron Cohen is a douche. Then add in the fact that the 320 is attacking its owners, the "it ends today" social media disaster and that better explains the 320 hatred. Quoted: Quoted: There were law suits over Glocks, lots of negative media over Glocks. Glock literally moved into the basement of an NYPD building to “fix” Glocks that were being labeled as defective and dangerous. The fix was to put a heavy 8-10-12lb trigger in them. Cops were shooting themselves with Glocks long before the P320. The difference is the internet wasn’t a thing yet. Was the Glock an unsafe pistol or were officers poorly trained? Which is it? It can’t be both. Glock leg is an actual term. The selective memory of the fanboys is interesting. Before the P320 the Glock was the butt of jokes. Everything from Glock grenades to Glock leg to dog chew toys. I am starting to wonder if some of you are suffering trauma or ptsd from decades of Glock hate to the point that now the P320 is the butt of jokes you are finding it therapeutic to bash another pistol. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5462_jpeg-3522396.JPG Maybe this has been discussed, but the 320 is being accused of an internal failure causing an uncommanded discharge. Glock leg is literally someone/something pulling a trigger. If the 320 is experiencing uncommanded discharges without a trigger pull, then this is an apples to oranges comparison. The 320 isn't getting a wrath of shit simply because a small contingent of tribal retarded Glock fans hate it. It's a mediocre pistol in the most competitive segment of the industry. Sig Sauer is nowhere near the company it was 20 years ago and Ron Cohen is a douche. Then add in the fact that the 320 is attacking its owners, the "it ends today" social media disaster and that better explains the 320 hatred. Glock leg was a term used not because someone was pulling the trigger, it was the claim that the pistol was firing uncommanded in the holster as multiple officers in the NYPD claimed when the Glock 17 was first issued. Initially the Glock was taken out of service and all pistols were inspected. Like the P320 no unsafe design could be found. The solution was a really heavy trigger to help midigate the unsafe handling by officers. It helped but never fully solved the issue. Glocks had a reputation of being unsafe for years early on. To the point that Glock launched a media campaign dubbing the Glock to be a “safe action” pistol in various magazines until the mid 2000s. It has taken almost 30 years now but Glock has finally earned the reputation it deserves. It is an excellent design, reliable, rugged and safe. When someone claims a glock just went off the initial reaction is doubt. As it should be. Sig had a drop firing issue. They handled that issue very poorly and rightly so lost trust with a lot of people. That said a lot of the people screaming the loudest, like some in this thread, have never owned or even fired one. They hitched their wagon to the Glock and the P320 is the enemy, it is the threat to what they see as the best pistol out there. Beretta experienced this early on when it was adopted by the military. The die hard 1911 guys were brutal. Though back then the only opinions you heard were in gun stores and magazine editorials. Beretta M9s slides were breaking in half early on which added fuel to the fire. There was a joke that you weren’t a SEAL until you ate Italian steel. Beretta redesigned their slides so that even is the slide broke in half the rear of the slide was retained on the frame. The issue with the slides cracking was due to Winchester incorrectly loading the 124gr NATO to what essentially turned out to be proof loads. This was causing slides to fail. There were lawsuits over that. Beretta won and it took a long time but Beretta earned a reputation for being reliable and durable, so long as they were maintained properly. Finally there is the M16 fiasco. Multiple games were played to sabotage the adoption of the M16. It was handicapped intentionally in testing to make it look like a poor design. With social media being what it is today things blow up. People love to hate on stuff and the gun community loves to eat their own. This thread isn’t a discussion so much as it is Glock fan boys with diarrhea fingers posting memes, quips and making jokes. Nobody wants to have the actual discussion about how this might could or couldn’t happen, that is difficult. It’s much easier to make jokes and post memes. |
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Quoted: Stop engaging with him. His MO is to blatantly troll with wrong information and bait personal arguments on all of the sig threads in the tech forum to get them shut down. He's already done it 2-3 times. There is a lot of good info on this thread and it would be better to not lose it. Quoted: Quoted: Guys, he’s right. This is all the fault of Glock and cops. MK318, you have my apologies. I was going to call Sig and let them know *you* single handedly ended it for them, but I figure you deserve to tell them yourself. 603-610-3000 I don’t have Ron’s extension, but I’m sure the folks there can help you out. Well done sir. Stop engaging with him. His MO is to blatantly troll with wrong information and bait personal arguments on all of the sig threads in the tech forum to get them shut down. He's already done it 2-3 times. There is a lot of good info on this thread and it would be better to not lose it. I haven't trolled or baited anyone into personal augments. If you feel I have please report me. You are making a wild claim that I do this in all the Sig threads and that I have done it 2-3 that is just a blatant lie on your behalf. Finally what wrong information have a posted? Please correct it. Like earlier when I asked someone to point out where I have said something that is wrong or speculated about someone in this thread, I am not going to be surprised if you don’t actually answer because at this point you are just making wild claims and lying. You are trying to color me as an Sig brand loyalist and the fact is, I am not loyal to any brand. I own all kinds of pistols from all kinds of brands. This thread isn’t a technical discussion. It is posted up by a Glock fanboy who hasn’t done anything except link to other threads, facebook links to fly by night training groups that have banned the P320 and post memes. Like I said in the previous post, nobody wants to actually discuss how multiple failures have to happen all at once in order for the P320 to fire on its own or how that might or might not be possible. The idea that some police officers are poorly trained and shoot themselves or have NDs is crazy. You guys don’t want to actually have a discussion, you want to get emotional, make up lies and scream down anyone with a different opinion. The brand tribalism is bananas. |
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Quoted: Glock leg was a term used not because someone was pulling the trigger, it was the claim that the pistol was firing uncommanded in the holster as multiple officers in the NYPD claimed when the Glock 17 was first issued. Initially the Glock was taken out of service and all pistols were inspected. Like the P320 no unsafe design could be found. The solution was a really heavy trigger to help midigate the unsafe handling by officers. It helped but never fully solved the issue. Glocks had a reputation of being unsafe for years early on. To the point that Glock launched a media campaign dubbing the Glock to be a “safe action” pistol in various magazines until the mid 2000s. It has taken almost 30 years now but Glock has finally earned the reputation it deserves. It is an excellent design, reliable, rugged and safe. When someone claims a glock just went off the initial reaction is doubt. As it should be. Sig had a drop firing issue. They handled that issue very poorly and rightly so lost trust with a lot of people. That said a lot of the people screaming the loudest, like some in this thread, have never owned or even fired one. They hitched their wagon to the Glock and the P320 is the enemy, it is the threat to what they see as the best pistol out there. Beretta experienced this early on when it was adopted by the military. The die hard 1911 guys were brutal. Though back then the only opinions you heard were in gun stores and magazine editorials. Beretta M9s slides were breaking in half early on which added fuel to the fire. There was a joke that you weren’t a SEAL until you ate Italian steel. Beretta redesigned their slides so that even is the slide broke in half the rear of the slide was retained on the frame. The issue with the slides cracking was due to Winchester incorrectly loading the 124gr NATO to what essentially turned out to be proof loads. This was causing slides to fail. There were lawsuits over that. Beretta won and it took a long time but Beretta earned a reputation for being reliable and durable, so long as they were maintained properly. Finally there is the M16 fiasco. Multiple games were played to sabotage the adoption of the M16. It was handicapped intentionally in testing to make it look like a poor design. With social media being what it is today things blow up. People love to hate on stuff and the gun community loves to eat their own. This thread isn’t a discussion so much as it is Glock fan boys with diarrhea fingers posting memes, quips and making jokes. Nobody wants to have the actual discussion about how this might could or couldn’t happen, that is difficult. It’s much easier to make jokes and post memes. I can only speak for myself, but I owned an M18. I still own multiple Sig pistols. The 320 is just....average. Aside from the modular FCU, which i think is neat but a novelty, it's an average firearm with a high bore axis and a snappy recoil impulse. There is absolutely nothing- not one thing, performance wise, that a person could say "the 320 does ____ better than it's competitors". People always hate change, and that much I understand. But I think a lot people, rightfully so, question WHY and HOW the 320 won the contract. There's an assumption to be made here, but who knows. While I'm not a huge fan of the 320, I don't hate it. But one thing that has not been answered is why are some guns failing the punch test? Even if you think the punch test is absolute horseshit, random 320s should all have consistent results. They do not. This does mean something, and it's constantly being ignored by few and the proud that are sticking with that piece of shit. The 320s design inherently makes it one of, if not the most unsafe striker fired handguns to carry. It really should have a longer travel, a wider trigger guard, and a trigger safety. |
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There's a bit more stuff here along with that link as well: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/-/5-2782910/?r=113164559&page=54#i113174948 You'll find some links to PDFs of other court docs there. |
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Quoted: I can only speak for myself, but I owned an M18. I still own multiple Sig pistols. The 320 is just....average. Aside from the modular FCU, which i think is neat but a novelty, it's an average firearm with a high bore axis and a snappy recoil impulse. There is absolutely nothing- not one thing, performance wise, that a person could say "the 320 does ____ better than it's competitors". People always hate change, and that much I understand. But I think a lot people, rightfully so, question WHY and HOW the 320 won the contract. There's an assumption to be made here, but who knows. While I'm not a huge fan of the 320, I don't hate it. But one thing that has not been answered is why are some guns failing the punch test? Even if you think the punch test is absolute horseshit, random 320s should all have consistent results. They do not. This does mean something, and it's constantly being ignored by few and the proud that are sticking with that piece of shit. The 320s design inherently makes it one of, if not the most unsafe striker fired handguns to carry. It really should have a longer travel, a wider trigger guard, and a trigger safety. Quoted: Quoted: Glock leg was a term used not because someone was pulling the trigger, it was the claim that the pistol was firing uncommanded in the holster as multiple officers in the NYPD claimed when the Glock 17 was first issued. Initially the Glock was taken out of service and all pistols were inspected. Like the P320 no unsafe design could be found. The solution was a really heavy trigger to help midigate the unsafe handling by officers. It helped but never fully solved the issue. Glocks had a reputation of being unsafe for years early on. To the point that Glock launched a media campaign dubbing the Glock to be a “safe action” pistol in various magazines until the mid 2000s. It has taken almost 30 years now but Glock has finally earned the reputation it deserves. It is an excellent design, reliable, rugged and safe. When someone claims a glock just went off the initial reaction is doubt. As it should be. Sig had a drop firing issue. They handled that issue very poorly and rightly so lost trust with a lot of people. That said a lot of the people screaming the loudest, like some in this thread, have never owned or even fired one. They hitched their wagon to the Glock and the P320 is the enemy, it is the threat to what they see as the best pistol out there. Beretta experienced this early on when it was adopted by the military. The die hard 1911 guys were brutal. Though back then the only opinions you heard were in gun stores and magazine editorials. Beretta M9s slides were breaking in half early on which added fuel to the fire. There was a joke that you weren’t a SEAL until you ate Italian steel. Beretta redesigned their slides so that even is the slide broke in half the rear of the slide was retained on the frame. The issue with the slides cracking was due to Winchester incorrectly loading the 124gr NATO to what essentially turned out to be proof loads. This was causing slides to fail. There were lawsuits over that. Beretta won and it took a long time but Beretta earned a reputation for being reliable and durable, so long as they were maintained properly. Finally there is the M16 fiasco. Multiple games were played to sabotage the adoption of the M16. It was handicapped intentionally in testing to make it look like a poor design. With social media being what it is today things blow up. People love to hate on stuff and the gun community loves to eat their own. This thread isn’t a discussion so much as it is Glock fan boys with diarrhea fingers posting memes, quips and making jokes. Nobody wants to have the actual discussion about how this might could or couldn’t happen, that is difficult. It’s much easier to make jokes and post memes. I can only speak for myself, but I owned an M18. I still own multiple Sig pistols. The 320 is just....average. Aside from the modular FCU, which i think is neat but a novelty, it's an average firearm with a high bore axis and a snappy recoil impulse. There is absolutely nothing- not one thing, performance wise, that a person could say "the 320 does ____ better than it's competitors". People always hate change, and that much I understand. But I think a lot people, rightfully so, question WHY and HOW the 320 won the contract. There's an assumption to be made here, but who knows. While I'm not a huge fan of the 320, I don't hate it. But one thing that has not been answered is why are some guns failing the punch test? Even if you think the punch test is absolute horseshit, random 320s should all have consistent results. They do not. This does mean something, and it's constantly being ignored by few and the proud that are sticking with that piece of shit. The 320s design inherently makes it one of, if not the most unsafe striker fired handguns to carry. It really should have a longer travel, a wider trigger guard, and a trigger safety. I agree with you about the wider trigger guard, especially when you see how much trigger is exposed in a light bearing holster. It is very easy for an object or someone’s fingers in there. Fortunately that is an easy issue to solve since modules aren’t serialized. As for the performance of the P320, that is a personal thing. My experiences with the P320 are very different than your own. I do tune my triggers and with the FCU I can find a grip, texture and feel that I like. I like the ability to fine tune it. I find recoil and accuracy on par with other pistols available. Sig being chosen over the Glock seems like it was a dollars and cents issue more than anything else. If you read the submission request though, it sounds as if it was written for a pistol like the P320 or Berettas APX or the Steyr L9A2, a pistol with a modular chassis. Sig was able to offer two pistols that covered everything that multiple branches were wanting. Glock only offered their 19X with an external safety and it kind of felt like they mailed it in a little. I really think if Glock offered something like G47 MOS, something with a 5” slide but the ability to also use a G19 slide, they would have been a better position to negotiate the contract price. Though at the time the G47 didn’t exist. I feel like the G47 grew out of losing that contract since that is what the CBPS ended up wanting. I don’t think the us military ended up with a poor choice either that. Both are great firearms. Sig just under bid Glock. There may have been some funny business, who knows. Finally the “punch test”, I am just not sold on a guy on YouTube who has to remove the back plate, and use a punch to drop the sear while also forcing the slide forward is really proof of anything other than a guy is using a P320 with the backplate off, using punch to drop the sear while pushing the slide forward on YouTube. I’m not sure what that is actually testing other than you can ford the sear to release if you jam a pointy thing in the inner workings. Attached File |
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Quoted: You were right the first time. Quoted: Quoted: This is either the largest, seemingly unprovoked attack against a company and very particular firearm in modern times The 320 might have some design problems. https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/SIG-The-P320-It-ends-today-/5-2782910/?page=54#i113174948 |
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Quoted: Stop engaging with him. His MO is to blatantly troll with wrong information and bait personal arguments on all of the sig threads in the tech forum to get them shut down. He's already done it 2-3 times. There is a lot of good info on this thread and it would be better to not lose it. Can’t argue any of that. |
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Quoted: It really should have an ignition system that doesn't go off without anyone touching it. Also true. Probably hard to track, but I wonder how this will impact 320 sales going forward. Most people buying guns seem really uninformed. So, I'm guess they'll dip but not crash. |
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Quoted: ...Like the P320 no unsafe design could be found. ... Quoted: ...Like the P320 no unsafe design could be found. ... This is tested the "punch test" you may have seen mentioned. People are finding that some repeatably fail (striker safety not working) and some don't fail. What this means is that in those where the striker fails this test IF something causes the striker to be "leg to of" without a trigger pull, the striker will contact the primer. This is a safety that is not working. Further, you can't see with your eyes if the striker safety is working or not during normal usage. --------------- People are now testing past this trying to find what could be causing the sears to let go of the striker and let it fall without a trigger pull. Which would explain thes ND/UD events. Quoted: Sig had a drop firing issue. They also had issues with striking the primers due to being shaken. https://drive.usercontent.google.com/download?id=1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p&export=download Attached File They were calling these "light" strikes. These happened due to shaking. eta: This is creepy as all get out:  The Sig P320 is ‘Perfect’ |
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Quoted: I haven't trolled or baited anyone into personal augments. If you feel I have please report me. You are making a wild claim that I do this in all the Sig threads and that I have done it 2-3 that is just a blatant lie on your behalf. Finally what wrong information have a posted? Please correct it. Like earlier when I asked someone to point out where I have said something that is wrong or speculated about someone in this thread, I am not going to be surprised if you don’t actually answer because at this point you are just making wild claims and lying. You are trying to color me as an Sig brand loyalist and the fact is, I am not loyal to any brand. I own all kinds of pistols from all kinds of brands. This thread isn’t a technical discussion. It is posted up by a Glock fanboy who hasn’t done anything except link to other threads, facebook links to fly by night training groups that have banned the P320 and post memes. Like I said in the previous post, nobody wants to actually discuss how multiple failures have to happen all at once in order for the P320 to fire on its own or how that might or might not be possible. The idea that some police officers are poorly trained and shoot themselves or have NDs is crazy. You guys don’t want to actually have a discussion, you want to get emotional, make up lies and scream down anyone with a different opinion. The brand tribalism is bananas. Gentlemen, stop feeding this guy. He REALLY wants your attention. |
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Quoted: Gentlemen, stop feeding this guy. He REALLY wants your attention. Quoted: Quoted: I haven't trolled or baited anyone into personal augments. If you feel I have please report me. You are making a wild claim that I do this in all the Sig threads and that I have done it 2-3 that is just a blatant lie on your behalf. Finally what wrong information have a posted? Please correct it. Like earlier when I asked someone to point out where I have said something that is wrong or speculated about someone in this thread, I am not going to be surprised if you don’t actually answer because at this point you are just making wild claims and lying. You are trying to color me as an Sig brand loyalist and the fact is, I am not loyal to any brand. I own all kinds of pistols from all kinds of brands. This thread isn’t a technical discussion. It is posted up by a Glock fanboy who hasn’t done anything except link to other threads, facebook links to fly by night training groups that have banned the P320 and post memes. Like I said in the previous post, nobody wants to actually discuss how multiple failures have to happen all at once in order for the P320 to fire on its own or how that might or might not be possible. The idea that some police officers are poorly trained and shoot themselves or have NDs is crazy. You guys don’t want to actually have a discussion, you want to get emotional, make up lies and scream down anyone with a different opinion. The brand tribalism is bananas. Gentlemen, stop feeding this guy. He REALLY wants your attention. Like I said if I have done the things you claimed in your previous post report me, otherwise this is nothing more than you projecting and trolling. |
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Quoted: So the striker in the 320 has a last-line safety that's supposed to grab the striker and stop it from hitting the primer in the case of hte striker falling *without the trigger having been pulled.* This is tested the "punch test" you may have seen mentioned. People are finding that some repeatably fail (striker safety not working) and some don't fail. What this means is that in those where the striker fails this test IF something causes the striker to be "leg to of" without a trigger pull, the striker will contact the primer. This is a safety that is not working. Further, you can't see with your eyes if the striker safety is working or not during normal usage. --------------- People are now testing past this trying to find what could be causing the sears to let go of the striker and let it fall without a trigger pull. Which would explain thes ND/UD events.They did. They also had issues with striking the primers due to being shaken. https://drive.usercontent.google.com/download?id=1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p&export=download https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/62477/IMG_4655_jpeg-3486538.JPG They were calling these "light" strikes. These happened due to shaking. eta: This is creepy as all get out:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs3vIWkkm2AQuoted: Quoted: ...Like the P320 no unsafe design could be found. ... This is tested the "punch test" you may have seen mentioned. People are finding that some repeatably fail (striker safety not working) and some don't fail. What this means is that in those where the striker fails this test IF something causes the striker to be "leg to of" without a trigger pull, the striker will contact the primer. This is a safety that is not working. Further, you can't see with your eyes if the striker safety is working or not during normal usage. --------------- People are now testing past this trying to find what could be causing the sears to let go of the striker and let it fall without a trigger pull. Which would explain thes ND/UD events. Quoted: Sig had a drop firing issue. They also had issues with striking the primers due to being shaken. https://drive.usercontent.google.com/download?id=1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p&export=download https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/62477/IMG_4655_jpeg-3486538.JPG They were calling these "light" strikes. These happened due to shaking. eta: This is creepy as all get out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs3vIWkkm2AHave you seen an industrial vibration test? It is hardly just some “shaking”. Without actually measuring how much force is being applied and in which directions these punch tests are meaningless. It is very possible that the introduction of an object producing force on a part can overcome and safety measure making the test results invalid. Tests need to be performed in a controlled environment, not in some guys basement, poorly filmed and posted on YouTube for clicks. I am not saying a flaw does or doesn’t exist, I am simply saying I want to see how three parts all fail in unison. I want to see that from an actual mechanical engineer and the failure should be repeatable in lab conditions. I say the same thing about Glocks, various H&K pistols and so on. Everyday firearms manufactures are being sued by people claiming a pistol is unsafe. Just some of the lawsuits being made about Glock with a quick google search. Gun owners urge court to certify Glock defect class action Parents Sue Glock for Firearm Design That Led to the Unintentional Shooting of Their Son Civil-Investigative Demand Allowed to Proceed against Glock PATRICK OGLESBEE; KATHREN D. OGLESBEE, Plaintiffs - Appellants, |
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Quoted: Guys, he’s right. This is all the fault of Glock and cops. MK318, you have my apologies. I was going to call Sig and let them know *you* single handedly ended it for them, but I figure you deserve to tell them yourself. 603-610-3000 I don’t have Ron’s extension, but I’m sure the folks there can help you out. Well done sir. Quoted: Quoted: There were law suits over Glocks, lots of negative media over Glocks. Glock literally moved into the basement of an NYPD building to “fix” Glocks that were being labeled as defective and dangerous. The fix was to put a heavy 8-10-12lb trigger in them. Cops were shooting themselves with Glocks long before the P320. The difference is the internet wasn’t a thing yet. Was the Glock an unsafe pistol or were officers poorly trained? Which is it? It can’t be both. Glock leg is an actual term. The selective memory of the fanboys is interesting. Before the P320 the Glock was the butt of jokes. Everything from Glock grenades to Glock leg to dog chew toys. I am starting to wonder if some of you are suffering trauma or ptsd from decades of Glock hate to the point that now the P320 is the butt of jokes you are finding it therapeutic to bash another pistol. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/557335/IMG_5462_jpeg-3522396.JPG Guys, he’s right. This is all the fault of Glock and cops. MK318, you have my apologies. I was going to call Sig and let them know *you* single handedly ended it for them, but I figure you deserve to tell them yourself. 603-610-3000 I don’t have Ron’s extension, but I’m sure the folks there can help you out. Well done sir. Well, it finally "ended today" so we can close this thread and let is drift away to be replaced by fond memories of the P320 as the safe and innovative pistol we needed. |
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Quoted: Have you seen an industrial vibration test? It is hardly just some “shaking”. Without actually measuring how much force is being applied and in which directions these punch tests are meaningless. It is very possible that the introduction of an object producing force on a part can overcome and safety measure making the test results invalid. Tests need to be performed in a controlled environment, not in some guys basement, poorly filmed and posted on YouTube for clicks. I am not saying a flaw does or doesn’t exist, I am simply saying I want to see how three parts all fail in unison. I want to see that from an actual mechanical engineer and the failure should be repeatable in lab conditions. I say the same thing about Glocks, various H&K pistols and so on. Everyday firearms manufactures are being sued by people claiming a pistol is unsafe. Just some of the lawsuits being made about Glock with a quick google search. Gun owners urge court to certify Glock defect class action Parents Sue Glock for Firearm Design That Led to the Unintentional Shooting of Their Son Civil-Investigative Demand Allowed to Proceed against Glock PATRICK OGLESBEE; KATHREN D. OGLESBEE, Plaintiffs - Appellants, The claimed problems with the P320 could not exist without it being single-action only. |
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Quoted: Have you seen an industrial vibration test? It is hardly just some “shaking”. Without actually measuring how much force is being applied and in which directions these punch tests are meaningless. It is very possible that the introduction of an object producing force on a part can overcome and safety measure making the test results invalid. Tests need to be performed in a controlled environment, not in some guys basement, poorly filmed and posted on YouTube for clicks. I am not saying a flaw does or doesn’t exist, I am simply saying I want to see how three parts all fail in unison. I want to see that from an actual mechanical engineer and the failure should be repeatable in lab conditions. I say the same thing about Glocks, various H&K pistols and so on. Everyday firearms manufactures are being sued by people claiming a pistol is unsafe. Just some of the lawsuits being made about Glock with a quick google search. Gun owners urge court to certify Glock defect class action Parents Sue Glock for Firearm Design That Led to the Unintentional Shooting of Their Son Civil-Investigative Demand Allowed to Proceed against Glock PATRICK OGLESBEE; KATHREN D. OGLESBEE, Plaintiffs - Appellants, Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ...Like the P320 no unsafe design could be found. ... This is tested the "punch test" you may have seen mentioned. People are finding that some repeatably fail (striker safety not working) and some don't fail. What this means is that in those where the striker fails this test IF something causes the striker to be "leg to of" without a trigger pull, the striker will contact the primer. This is a safety that is not working. Further, you can't see with your eyes if the striker safety is working or not during normal usage. --------------- People are now testing past this trying to find what could be causing the sears to let go of the striker and let it fall without a trigger pull. Which would explain thes ND/UD events. Quoted: Sig had a drop firing issue. They also had issues with striking the primers due to being shaken. https://drive.usercontent.google.com/download?id=1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p&export=download https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/62477/IMG_4655_jpeg-3486538.JPG They were calling these "light" strikes. These happened due to shaking. eta: This is creepy as all get out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs3vIWkkm2AHave you seen an industrial vibration test? It is hardly just some “shaking”. Without actually measuring how much force is being applied and in which directions these punch tests are meaningless. It is very possible that the introduction of an object producing force on a part can overcome and safety measure making the test results invalid. Tests need to be performed in a controlled environment, not in some guys basement, poorly filmed and posted on YouTube for clicks. I am not saying a flaw does or doesn’t exist, I am simply saying I want to see how three parts all fail in unison. I want to see that from an actual mechanical engineer and the failure should be repeatable in lab conditions. I say the same thing about Glocks, various H&K pistols and so on. Everyday firearms manufactures are being sued by people claiming a pistol is unsafe. Just some of the lawsuits being made about Glock with a quick google search. Gun owners urge court to certify Glock defect class action Parents Sue Glock for Firearm Design That Led to the Unintentional Shooting of Their Son Civil-Investigative Demand Allowed to Proceed against Glock PATRICK OGLESBEE; KATHREN D. OGLESBEE, Plaintiffs - Appellants, Sig did the test in house. Is that not a controlled environment? |
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Quoted: You can put a factory Glock, or a Kahr or a Smith, into an industrial shaker for all of eternity without them firing, because they are not single-action guns. The trigger must be pulled to finish cocking it. The claimed problems with the P320 could not exist without it being single-action only. The only practical difference between a P320 and a hammer cocked, safety off Beretta 92 is that there is no external evidence the P320 is cocked. I’m amazed, even totally discounting the “fires on its own” thing, that anyone, especially a major firearms manufacturer, thought a cocked single action with no external safety of any kind, not even a trigger dingus, was a good idea. If you wouldn’t carry an exposed hammer pistol, cocked, chamber loaded, with no safety of any kind engaged, you shouldn’t be carrying a P320. Because, once again for the people in the back, it is doing the exact same thing in practice. |
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Quoted: Lol, like a PD investigating itself, "nope, our ossiferz did nuthin' wrong, we're cool". Quoted: Quoted: Sig did the test in house. Is that not a controlled environment? Lol, like a PD investigating itself, "nope, our ossiferz did nuthin' wrong, we're cool". Well I mean if his assertion is that any foreign materials could somehow enter into the chamber and actuate the trigger, SIG would have the impetus to prevent that -- and yet the gun still went off. He's saying it wasn't necessarily a controlled environment, but it would be pretty stupid for them to have their own gun fail the test by not controlling the environment. So, even with the equivalent of the PD investigating itself, they ended up finding themselves guilty. |
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Quoted: Have you seen an industrial vibration test? It is hardly just some “shaking”. Without actually measuring how much force is being applied and in which directions these punch tests are meaningless. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ...Like the P320 no unsafe design could be found. ... This is tested the "punch test" you may have seen mentioned. People are finding that some repeatably fail (striker safety not working) and some don't fail. What this means is that in those where the striker fails this test IF something causes the striker to be "leg to of" without a trigger pull, the striker will contact the primer. This is a safety that is not working. Further, you can't see with your eyes if the striker safety is working or not during normal usage. --------------- People are now testing past this trying to find what could be causing the sears to let go of the striker and let it fall without a trigger pull. Which would explain thes ND/UD events. Quoted: Sig had a drop firing issue. They also had issues with striking the primers due to being shaken. https://drive.usercontent.google.com/download?id=1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p&export=download https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/62477/IMG_4655_jpeg-3486538.JPG They were calling these "light" strikes. These happened due to shaking. eta: This is creepy as all get out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs3vIWkkm2AHave you seen an industrial vibration test? It is hardly just some “shaking”. Without actually measuring how much force is being applied and in which directions these punch tests are meaningless. If yes, why yes, and do those get fixed so they don't have the above outcome? Quoted: ...I am not saying a flaw does or doesn’t exist, I am simply saying I want to see how three parts all fail in unison.I want to see that from an actual mechanical engineer and the failure should be repeatable in lab conditions. I say the same thing about Glocks, various H&K pistols and so on. The people in the best position to do this are sig themselves. If the community figures it out before them that will look extremely bad for them. I dont care one bit about the credentials or experience level of the person who finds out what's going on. I only care that they find it out and explain it clearly for everyone to see. Quoted: Everyday firearms manufactures are being sued by people claiming a pistol is unsafe. Just some of the lawsuits being made about Glock with a quick google search. Gun owners urge court to certify Glock defect class action Parents Sue Glock for Firearm Design That Led to the Unintentional Shooting of Their Son Civil-Investigative Demand Allowed to Proceed against Glock PATRICK OGLESBEE; KATHREN D. OGLESBEE, Plaintiffs - Appellants, "But you did something bad!" doesn't mean "that means it's ok when I do it." |
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They left out the Cross and Mosquito as well
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Quoted: DPS cares more about looking good and having a gun that matches their brown uniform than they do about the actual functionality of the firearm. They’re the best dressed traffic cops you’ll ever meet. According to an Officer from another website, they are just getting the same gun they already issue with an optic added: "The Texas DPS already issues the full sized 320. They are now transitioning to ones with red dots mounted. They have to get new pistols, because their current ones have their logo where the red dot goes. IIRC, they will be black and not have a manual safety." |
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Quoted: According to an Officer from another website, they are just getting the same gun they already issue with an optic added: "The Texas DPS already issues the full sized 320. They are now transitioning to ones with red dots mounted. They have to get new pistols, because their current ones have their logo where the red dot goes. IIRC, they will be black and not have a manual safety." Quoted: Quoted: DPS cares more about looking good and having a gun that matches their brown uniform than they do about the actual functionality of the firearm. They’re the best dressed traffic cops you’ll ever meet. According to an Officer from another website, they are just getting the same gun they already issue with an optic added: "The Texas DPS already issues the full sized 320. They are now transitioning to ones with red dots mounted. They have to get new pistols, because their current ones have their logo where the red dot goes. IIRC, they will be black and not have a manual safety." Their former pistols will most likely show up at GT Distributors eventually. |
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Quoted: The only practical difference between a P320 and a hammer cocked, safety off Beretta 92 is that there is no external evidence the P320 is cocked. I’m amazed, even totally discounting the “fires on its own” thing, that anyone, especially a major firearms manufacturer, thought a cocked single action with no external safety of any kind, not even a trigger dingus, was a good idea. If you wouldn’t carry an exposed hammer pistol, cocked, chamber loaded, with no safety of any kind engaged, you shouldn’t be carrying a P320. Because, once again for the people in the back, it is doing the exact same thing in practice. |
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Quoted: Someone from Texas DPS still wants a job at Sig?  What the story really passes over is that they dropped the P320 after adopting it only a few years ago. Now they have to retrain their entire dept to use a manual safety that STILL does not address the P320 issue. Granted they got an optic, but they did not even consider other platforms. DPS BTW, does not issue Glocks and considers them unsafe and unreliable. 
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