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Posted: 12/21/2021 8:25:13 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How did the brass look? Any bulges or smiles? No bulges at all. The M&P barrel is fully supported, as expected. Much better case support than a G20 or 40 barrel. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 8:36:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You would think, if that were so, that they would fix the most common gripe of the M&P line themselves (the gritty trigger)... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Trust me, the last thing the Engineers at Smith care about is the Aftermarket. They will do everything in their power to push us away. You would think, if that were so, that they would fix the most common gripe of the M&P line themselves (the gritty trigger)... So true. I have 4 other M&P's and this new "flat faced" trigger on the 10mm was by far the worst from the factory. If my sample is standard, Smith is gonna send a lot of business towards Apex. It's good Apex is testing the trigger in the 10mm 2.0, but I'm pretty sure they will find it compatible. I have a 2.0 45 threaded model and the trigger bars between the 10mm and 45 appear to be the same. The sear and sear actuator appear identical. The safety plunger blocks the striker appropriately on my pistol and there is no damage to either the striker or safety plunger after firing several rounds. It looks like the only thing Smith did to the 10mm trigger was change the trigger shoe. |
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Posted: 12/21/2021 8:44:53 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So true. I have 4 other M&P's and this new "flat faced" trigger on the 10mm was by far the worst from the factory. If my sample is standard, Smith is gonna send a lot of business towards Apex. It's good Apex is testing the trigger in the 10mm 2.0, but I'm pretty sure they will find it compatible. I have a 2.0 45 threaded model and the trigger bars between the 10mm and 45 appear to be the same. The sear and sear actuator appear identical. The safety plunger blocks the striker appropriately on my pistol and there is no damage to either the striker or safety plunger after firing several rounds. It looks like the only thing Smith did to the 10mm trigger was change the trigger shoe. After handling several Shield Plus pistols and a 2.0 Compact with the new trigger I would have to agree. Not even close to my full size nine 2.0 with Apex springs and sear. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 9:29:01 AM EDT
[#4]
As to the trigger, I put a drop of SLiP 2000 on the plunger and worked a few times. That took almost all the “gritty “ out. I haven’t had a chance to fire yet but the trigger has improved greatly with just a little dry firing and lube on the appropriate parts. I really like the feel of the 4 inch.
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Posted: 12/23/2021 10:07:22 AM EDT
[#5]
I did the same thing and set on the couch and worked the trigger for quite awhile. My grit is completely gone and the trigger is much much better. I’m guessing a little polishing on the lever and the plunger wouldn’t hurt either. There is still the long travel I’d like to get rid of……I’ll wait and see what APEX says about their triggers although we can say it’s 99.9% gonna be compatible.
I also took my mini fine file and lightly worked on the grip to tone down the aggressive texture. Way better in my opinion. This is a great gun so far and very happy with it. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 10:15:41 AM EDT
[#6]
I’m still having issues finding the spring and recoil rod…..anyone got a link ?
Thanks Quote HistoryQuoted: Should be SKU 54624 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Molar, You got a part number on that Wolf guide rod and spring ? Thanks Should be SKU 54624 |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 12:14:00 PM EDT
[#7]
I bought the 4 inch version and did some searching for a guide rod and springs. I finally order a non-captured rod with 18,20,and 22 lb springs from Carver Custom. Should be here today. Also order some extra power .45 magazine springs from Wolff to play with. I will report back.
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Posted: 12/23/2021 7:03:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Welp, I had high hopes for the M&P, listening to an S&W executive on GunTalk he spoke of the engineers at S&W "working their magic" on the recoil spring assembly in order to reduce recoil.
Despite being burned by S&W more then a few times in the past, I was interested in purchasing both models for woods carry, his and hers, I was also reconsidering two 9mm CZ pistol projects and considering the new 9mm M&P optic ready models with the new trigger instead. Thinking it would great if all my pistols were the same platform, especially for the less experience shooters in the house. The 10mm must be able to handle 200 gr. WFN/LBT loads loaded to 1200 fps from the 4.6" barrel. Specifically something along the lines of a 200 gr. WFN hard cast, similar to what Underwood and Buffalo Bore use in their 200 grain hard cast loads. The gun also needs to reliably shoot 180 grain XTP's to 1300 fps and 180 Gold Dots to 1200, or run at 37,000 psi in other words. I've now seen two Youtuber's lose the red dot sight while shooting and several are having issues with failure to feed on the warmer loads. I think this guy does a good job of running "real" 10mm ammo through the pistol and he's now somewhat got it running with a heavier recoil spring that he modified. https://youtu.be/ikRJUzZLrmE I could be wrong, but I think it's going to need a combination of recoil and magazines springs and it's very disappointing that it appears that S&W didn't figure this out prior to release. As a reloader I can modify COL to help with feeding issues. Now I'm reading the trigger is nothing to write home about either. Meanwhile the Springfield I handled has a nice trigger and from what I've read it seems to be humming along, I really wanted to go S&W, but I'm going to wait and see for now. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 8:09:28 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 10mm must be able to handle 200 gr. WFN/LBT loads loaded to 1200 fps from the 4.6" barrel. Specifically something along the lines of a 200 gr. WFN hard cast, similar to what Underwood and Buffalo Bore use in their 200 grain hard cast loads. The gun also needs to reliably shoot 180 grain XTP's to 1300 fps and 180 Gold Dots to 1200, or run at 37,000 psi in other words. I've now seen two Youtuber's lose the red dot sight while shooting and several are having issues with failure to feed on the warmer loads. I think this guy does a good job of running "real" 10mm ammo through the pistol and he's now somewhat got it running with a heavier recoil spring that he modified. https://youtu.be/ikRJUzZLrmE I could be wrong, but I think it's going to need a combination of recoil and magazines springs and it's very disappointing that it appears that S&W didn't figure this out prior to release. As a reloader I can modify COL to help with feeding issues. Now I'm reading the trigger is nothing to write home about either. Meanwhile the Springfield I handled has a nice trigger and from what I've read it seems to be humming along, I really wanted to go S&W, but I'm going to wait and see for now. IMHO, it'd not unreasonable to tailor recoil springs to the type of load you're shooting. I've done the same with with 1911's, 2011's, CZ's and M&P's . . the trigger can easily be smoothed out with some mild tuning using the Dan Burwell method. this is for the original M&P, not the 2.0, but much of it is the same.... http://www.burwellguns.com/misc/M&Ptriggerjob.pdf or APEX after they confirm it's GTG for 10mm . . . PS -- what does this mean ? "I've now seen two Youtuber's lose the red dot sight while shooting" ??? loose it in there vision, or glass flying off the red-dot from 10mm recoil ? |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 8:29:26 PM EDT
[#10]
The red dot sight flying off in recoil, the second guy claims it was properly tourqed to spec. I believe he had FTF too.
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Posted: 12/23/2021 8:43:32 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Welp, I had high hopes for the M&P, listening to an S&W executive on GunTalk he spoke of the engineers at S&W "working their magic" on the recoil spring assembly in order to reduce recoil. Despite being burned by S&W more then a few times in the past, I was interested in purchasing both models for woods carry, his and hers, I was also reconsidering two 9mm CZ pistol projects and considering the new 9mm M&P optic ready models with the new trigger instead. Thinking it would great if all my pistols were the same platform, especially for the less experience shooters in the house. The 10mm must be able to handle 200 gr. WFN/LBT loads loaded to 1200 fps from the 4.6" barrel. Specifically something along the lines of a 200 gr. WFN hard cast, similar to what Underwood and Buffalo Bore use in their 200 grain hard cast loads. The gun also needs to reliably shoot 180 grain XTP's to 1300 fps and 180 Gold Dots to 1200, or run at 37,000 psi in other words. I've now seen two Youtuber's lose the red dot sight while shooting and several are having issues with failure to feed on the warmer loads. I think this guy does a good job of running "real" 10mm ammo through the pistol and he's now somewhat got it running with a heavier recoil spring that he modified. https://youtu.be/ikRJUzZLrmE I could be wrong, but I think it's going to need a combination of recoil and magazines springs and it's very disappointing that it appears that S&W didn't figure this out prior to release. As a reloader I can modify COL to help with feeding issues. Now I'm reading the trigger is nothing to write home about either. Meanwhile the Springfield I handled has a nice trigger and from what I've read it seems to be humming along, I really wanted to go S&W, but I'm going to wait and see for now. Modifying COL of rounds isn’t going to help the feed issues. The failures to feed you are seeing are the result of slide velocity being too high, resulting in the slide outrunning the mag springs. You can increase recoil spring weight or add a comp to reduce slide velocity. The MP slide weighs 3 oz less than the G20 slide. As a result, loads that function in my G20 with factory RSA won’t function with the factory spring in my M&P. I did run a few mags off 200 gr WFN bullets @1200 f ps with no failures using a 24 lb Wolff spring. The 4” model is going to be even more problematic due to less slide mass. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 10:02:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Modifying COL of rounds isn’t going to help the feed issues. The failures to feed you are seeing are the result of slide velocity being too high, resulting in the slide outrunning the mag springs. You can increase recoil spring weight or add a comp to reduce slide velocity. The MP slide weighs 3 oz less than the G20 slide. As a result, loads that function in my G20 with factory RSA won’t function with the factory spring in my M&P. I did run a few mags off 200 gr WFN bullets @1200 f ps with no failures using a 24 lb Wolff spring. The 4” model is going to be even more problematic due to less slide mass. Just so I understand, you swapped out the factory recoil spring from your new 4.6" Smith with a Wolff 24 pnd., spring and you were able to fire 200 gr., WFN without issue? If so which pistol is the 24 pound Wolff spring for? |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 10:19:14 PM EDT
[#13]
I shoot Underwood 180 FMJ and Underwood 180 gr JHPs as my duty load. I fired approximately 4 boxes of FMJs and 3 boxes of their JHPs. Not one issue but I will definitely be putting a heavier recoil spring to slow her down some….. same thing I did with my G20.
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Posted: 12/23/2021 10:20:20 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just so I understand, you swapped out the factory recoil spring from your new 4.6" Smith with a Wolff 24 pnd., spring and you were able to fire 200 gr., WFN without issue? If so which pistol is the 24 pound Wolff spring for? That is correct. The Wolff guide rod and spring is for the full size M&P 45. I happened to have it on hand cause I was occasionally shooting 45 Super out of the M&P 45. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 10:27:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shoot Underwood 180 FMJ and Underwood 180 gr JHPs as my duty load. I fired approximately 4 boxes of FMJs and 3 boxes of their JHPs. Not one issue but I will definitely be putting a heavier recoil spring to slow her down some….. same thing I did with my G20. Powder burn rate has a lot to do with determining slide velocity. I ran into issues with AA#9, which is about the slowest powder you can use in 10mm and generates more slide velocity than most powders. I bet Underwood is using a powder like 800x, bluedot, or longshot with the 180 gr loads. |
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Posted: 12/23/2021 10:58:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That will be my next purchase. I have a glock 40 and have wanted a smaller carry gun in 10mm  Attached File
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Posted: 12/23/2021 11:42:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is correct. The Wolff guide rod and spring is for the full size M&P 45. I happened to have it on hand cause I was occasionally shooting 45 Super out of the M&P 45. Thanks good to know. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 12:08:39 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bought the 4 inch version and did some searching for a guide rod and springs. I finally order a non-captured rod with 18,20,and 22 lb springs from Carver Custom. Should be here today. Also order some extra power .45 magazine springs from Wolff to play with. I will report back. Carver Custom. Those folks did me a solid when I ordered the wrong parts for my m&p 45. So buy stuff from them. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 4:12:29 PM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 12/24/2021 5:21:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Can you list the part numbers you ordered from Wolf ?
Thanks Quote HistoryQuoted: Been following this thread. Waiting on Wolff recoil springs/rod. Haven't shot it yet. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170652/20211224_141006_jpg-2215420.JPG |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 5:54:00 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you list the part numbers you ordered from Wolf ? Thanks Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you list the part numbers you ordered from Wolf ? Thanks Quoted: Been following this thread. Waiting on Wolff recoil springs/rod. Haven't shot it yet. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170652/20211224_141006_jpg-2215420.JPG ****ETA: The parts below will not work in the 4". Not sure about the longer model**** Here is what I ordered from Wolff. Do I know these will work? Nope. Just ordered them to try based on feedback in this thread. 54520 - S&W M&P.45 ACP ONLY XP RECOIL SPRING 20LB - $7.89 54522 - S&W M&P.45 ACP ONLY XP RECOIL SPRING 22LB - $7.89 54624 - S&W M&P.45 GUIDE ROD w/XP RECOIL SPRNG 24LB - $29.95 I have Wolff recoil rods and springs in both my Glock 30 and Glock 21 for running 45 super. Think I run the 21lb springs in them and they run both normal 45acp and 45 super just fine. I ordered Wolff because I have had good luck with them and ordered multiple springs to see what works best. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 7:00:33 PM EDT
[#22]
What’s the stock 10mm recoil spring weight ?
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Posted: 12/24/2021 7:06:40 PM EDT
[#23]
How can you tell if the Wolf part is for the 4.5” or the 4.0” ?? All I see is for the full-size (4.5”)
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Posted: 12/24/2021 8:11:08 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What’s the stock 10mm recoil spring weight ? Quote HistoryQuoted: What’s the stock 10mm recoil spring weight ? Not sure. Doesn't feel very heavy. Quoted: How can you tell if the Wolf part is for the 4.5” or the 4.0” ?? All I see is for the full-size (4.5”) I assumed the recoil rod was similar between both models. Could I be wrong, yep. May have to cut it down. Either way, I'll give it a try. You are putting more thought into this than I am. New gun, no specific parts for it yet, so I'm just trying to see what works. |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 8:40:52 PM EDT
[#25]
The last time I talked to Wolff the guy helped me find a spring for a new model, that was back in 2008.
Looks like they offer 4, 4.25 and 4.5" springs for Sigma, M&P and 45. I'm not sure if any of those will work though, if it were me I'd call them. I've watched a bunch of YouTube and read every review I can find for both the Smith and Springfield. I either heard or read the recoil spring for the Smith is 17 pounds but, I'm not sure if that's for both models. I put a link in one of my previous posts for YouTube from a guy who's fired a decent selection of ammo, he modified a 20 pound spring and his 4" is running better, still not 100% though. Spring details are in his 4th or 5th 10mm M&P video. |
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Posted: 12/26/2021 5:46:28 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What’s the stock 10mm recoil spring weight ? S&W told a YouTuber who goes by "The Turkey's Opinion" that the stock spring weight is 17 lb. |
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Posted: 12/26/2021 2:39:21 PM EDT
[#27]
Picked up my 4" version today. Overall, I'm pretty happy so far. After some dry-fire, the trigger is fine. Empty take-up to the wall, then a little creep before breaking. Reset is not forceful or all that audible, but still easy to know. I'm mostly shooting 1911s lately, and don't expect a polymer pistol to be near the same. It's just fine for the purpose.
I'm thinking I might grab a 2.0 optics ready 9mm version as a trainer and then also train/carry with the 10 if it runs well. Hoping to shoot today or tomorrow. |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 9:59:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Do the stock sights cowitness with the installed Holosun?
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:56:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Just as a heads up, I got my Carver Custom guide rod and spring set for my 4” model. With the new guide rod and springs the gun would not fully return to battery when hand cycled. It would stop just short of the barrel hood popping up into place in the slide. I spoke to Carver Custom and they have not received the M&P 10mm pistols they ordered so they have not been able to function test or troubleshoot. They authorized me to return the parts for credit.
I am hoping soon someone comes out with a guide rod and spring set that will work with the 4” model. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:19:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Welp, I had high hopes for the M&P, listening to an S&W executive on GunTalk he spoke of the engineers at S&W "working their magic" on the recoil spring assembly in order to reduce recoil. Despite being burned by S&W more then a few times in the past, I was interested in purchasing both models for woods carry, his and hers, I was also reconsidering two 9mm CZ pistol projects and considering the new 9mm M&P optic ready models with the new trigger instead. Thinking it would great if all my pistols were the same platform, especially for the less experience shooters in the house. The 10mm must be able to handle 200 gr. WFN/LBT loads loaded to 1200 fps from the 4.6" barrel. Specifically something along the lines of a 200 gr. WFN hard cast, similar to what Underwood and Buffalo Bore use in their 200 grain hard cast loads. The gun also needs to reliably shoot 180 grain XTP's to 1300 fps and 180 Gold Dots to 1200, or run at 37,000 psi in other words. I've now seen two Youtuber's lose the red dot sight while shooting and several are having issues with failure to feed on the warmer loads. I think this guy does a good job of running "real" 10mm ammo through the pistol and he's now somewhat got it running with a heavier recoil spring that he modified. https://youtu.be/ikRJUzZLrmE I could be wrong, but I think it's going to need a combination of recoil and magazines springs and it's very disappointing that it appears that S&W didn't figure this out prior to release. As a reloader I can modify COL to help with feeding issues. Now I'm reading the trigger is nothing to write home about either. Meanwhile the Springfield I handled has a nice trigger and from what I've read it seems to be humming along, I really wanted to go S&W, but I'm going to wait and see for now. Mine will not reliably cycle hot "true" 10mm loads in 180 or 200gr reliably either. I put 250 rounds through mine with the same powder/bullet combinations just seated at different lengths while staying within safe parameters and still had hiccups. A recoil spring change is necessary and I'm sure Smith didnt test with anything other than factory anemic offerings. The trigger is garbage, a mile of pre-travel, a solid wall, and a 7+lb break. As for the optics flying off, mine have been fine, but I'm not an idiot either and ensured the proper plate and loctite was used. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 7:49:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:... This is the polymer forward set trigger. They are $100. After feeling this trigger, I doubt I will ever buy the aluminum version again. @molar How does the polymer flat trigger compare to the alloy ? I have the APEX alloy Flat faced on my 1.0 and 2.0 just bought another 9mm and may go polymer. thanks  |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 10:04:54 PM EDT
[#32]
I’ve put 375 rounds of Underwood FMJ and JHPs and mine shot without an issue. I believe Underwood’s loads are on the hot side. Maybe I’ve just been lucky so far. It definitely has a high slide recoil rate and I think a heavier recoil spring will slow and tame her down some. Are you malfunctions a feeding or ejection issue? If it’s a feeding issue, do you think your slide it outrunning the magazine’s ability to feed?
MM Quote HistoryQuoted: Mine will not reliably cycle hot "true" 10mm loads in 180 or 200gr reliably either. I put 250 rounds through mine with the same powder/bullet combinations just seated at different lengths while staying within safe parameters and still had hiccups. A recoil spring change is necessary and I'm sure Smith didnt test with anything other than factory anemic offerings. The trigger is garbage, a mile of pre-travel, a solid wall, and a 7+lb break. As for the optics flying off, mine have been fine, but I'm not an idiot either and ensured the proper plate and loctite was used. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Welp, I had high hopes for the M&P, listening to an S&W executive on GunTalk he spoke of the engineers at S&W "working their magic" on the recoil spring assembly in order to reduce recoil. Despite being burned by S&W more then a few times in the past, I was interested in purchasing both models for woods carry, his and hers, I was also reconsidering two 9mm CZ pistol projects and considering the new 9mm M&P optic ready models with the new trigger instead. Thinking it would great if all my pistols were the same platform, especially for the less experience shooters in the house. The 10mm must be able to handle 200 gr. WFN/LBT loads loaded to 1200 fps from the 4.6" barrel. Specifically something along the lines of a 200 gr. WFN hard cast, similar to what Underwood and Buffalo Bore use in their 200 grain hard cast loads. The gun also needs to reliably shoot 180 grain XTP's to 1300 fps and 180 Gold Dots to 1200, or run at 37,000 psi in other words. I've now seen two Youtuber's lose the red dot sight while shooting and several are having issues with failure to feed on the warmer loads. I think this guy does a good job of running "real" 10mm ammo through the pistol and he's now somewhat got it running with a heavier recoil spring that he modified. https://youtu.be/ikRJUzZLrmE I could be wrong, but I think it's going to need a combination of recoil and magazines springs and it's very disappointing that it appears that S&W didn't figure this out prior to release. As a reloader I can modify COL to help with feeding issues. Now I'm reading the trigger is nothing to write home about either. Meanwhile the Springfield I handled has a nice trigger and from what I've read it seems to be humming along, I really wanted to go S&W, but I'm going to wait and see for now. Mine will not reliably cycle hot "true" 10mm loads in 180 or 200gr reliably either. I put 250 rounds through mine with the same powder/bullet combinations just seated at different lengths while staying within safe parameters and still had hiccups. A recoil spring change is necessary and I'm sure Smith didnt test with anything other than factory anemic offerings. The trigger is garbage, a mile of pre-travel, a solid wall, and a 7+lb break. As for the optics flying off, mine have been fine, but I'm not an idiot either and ensured the proper plate and loctite was used. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 11:22:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Almost all of them have been both feed and eject with the hotter rounds, most of mine are equivalent to Underwoods. Tame them down a bit and it smooths right out. I think if I slow the slide down a touch it will be spot on no matter what I put in it.
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Posted: 12/30/2021 8:37:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @molar How does the polymer flat trigger compare to the alloy ? I have the APEX alloy Flat faced on my 1.0 and 2.0 just bought another 9mm and may go polymer. thanks https://i.imgur.com/q5arzQe.jpg They are pretty much identical, with the exception of the polymer trigger shoe edge being more rounded, which I prefer. It’s also much easier to install the shoe on the trigger bar. I see no reason to pay $60-70 more for the aluminum one |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 11:44:18 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are pretty much identical, with the exception of the polymer trigger shoe edge being more rounded, which I prefer. It’s also much easier to install the shoe on the trigger bar. I see no reason to pay $60-70 more for the aluminum one cool thanks 
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Posted: 12/31/2021 3:35:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Okay, so I was finally able to get out and try my sample, a 4" version w/o safety wearing an X300-U. I field stripped the gun, sprayed it down with penetrating oil, added Hoppe's #9, and headed out.
I have read and watched numerous reviews (to include those from "The Turkey's Opinion" on YouTube, who's content I've really come to enjoy) and will echo the majority findings; This thing runs really well with mid-range loads. I ran 400 rounds through it: -Magtech 180gr RNFP w/ reported 1250fps muzzle velocity 605 ft. lbs muzzle energy. -Freedom Munitions 180gr RNFP w/reported 1150fps muzzle velocity. -Hornady Critical Duty 175gr JHP w/ reported 1160fps muzzle velocity and 523 ft. lbs muzzle energy. All rounds ran flawlessly. The Magtech was obviously hotter, but all were very manageable. The grip texture is very beneficial when firing. I shot it back-to-back with my Specialist 10mm today, and will say that the M&P had slightly more felt recoil... even with the light attached. The trigger does have a slightly long take-up, but it is hitch-free and extremely predictable. It is quite easy and natural to stage the trigger and know the break point. I don't mind it nearly as much as many have reported. The irons do require some adjustment, which I will be doing once the 507cV2 for it arrives. I also have an optics-ready M&P 2.0 Compact which will be identically-outfitted, with the addition of an Apex flatty. It will be fun to compare the two just for gits and shiggles. |
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Posted: 1/1/2022 10:44:27 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mine will not reliably cycle hot "true" 10mm loads in 180 or 200gr reliably either. I put 250 rounds through mine with the same powder/bullet combinations just seated at different lengths while staying within safe parameters and still had hiccups. A recoil spring change is necessary and I'm sure Smith didnt test with anything other than factory anemic offerings.. Here’s my thought - S&W engineers aren’t stupid, just constrained by project parameters. I think they know they could have this gun run fine with light to moderate 10mm ammo with one spring, but would need a different spring to run moderate to hot 10mm ammo. Since so much factory ammo is on the weaker side, the spring they shipped was configured to insure the pistol handled typical factory low power 10mm. I don’t know why they didn’t ship this gun with two recoil soring sssemblies, color coded to differentiate between light and heavy. |
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Posted: 1/1/2022 10:48:28 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's my thought - S&W engineers aren't stupid, just constrained by project parameters. I think they know they could have this gun run fine with light to moderate 10mm ammo with one spring, but would need a different spring to run moderate to hot 10mm ammo. Since so much factory ammo is on the weaker side, the spring they shipped was configured to insure the pistol handled typical factory low power 10mm. I don't know why they didn't ship this gun with two recoil soring sssemblies, color coded to differentiate between light and heavy. However, yes. They should have just included both so as to not be perceived as a "beta testing failure" and to better serve those of us looking to use a wide range of loads. |
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Posted: 1/1/2022 2:24:05 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's my thought exactly. The majority of of users will be well-served by the gun the way it is because they will be buying ammo off the shelf. And likely won't fire it a lot after a while, if we're being honest. However, yes. They should have just included both so as to not be perceived as a "beta testing failure" and to better serve those of us looking to use a wide range of loads. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Here's my thought - S&W engineers aren't stupid, just constrained by project parameters. I think they know they could have this gun run fine with light to moderate 10mm ammo with one spring, but would need a different spring to run moderate to hot 10mm ammo. Since so much factory ammo is on the weaker side, the spring they shipped was configured to insure the pistol handled typical factory low power 10mm. I don't know why they didn't ship this gun with two recoil soring sssemblies, color coded to differentiate between light and heavy. However, yes. They should have just included both so as to not be perceived as a "beta testing failure" and to better serve those of us looking to use a wide range of loads. Agreed. This result doesn’t really change my mind on the 10 mm Smith & Wesson M & P. I do think that Smith may get some bad press over problems with some of these first guns. Ultimately I would almost expect to possibly need multiple weight recall springs with a 10 mm pistol. In fact, going to an outside source for third-party spring isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I have s M&P40 where the recoil spring simply wore out. I actually had a bit of a challenge sourcing a OEM recall spring because they simply weren’t on the market right at that time. Eventually within a few months I found one and I could’ve purchased one at any point but I would’ve paid a premium. |
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Posted: 1/1/2022 3:10:06 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here’s my thought - S&W engineers aren’t stupid, just constrained by project parameters. I think they know they could have this gun run fine with light to moderate 10mm ammo with one spring, but would need a different spring to run moderate to hot 10mm ammo. Since so much factory ammo is on the weaker side, the spring they shipped was configured to insure the pistol handled typical factory low power 10mm. I don’t know why they didn’t ship this gun with two recoil soring sssemblies, color coded to differentiate between light and heavy. I think you hit this one on the head 100%. It's legal constraints probably. But Smith would not answer any of my questions about whom or what ammunitions was used and if a third party was involved in the testing of the pistols full potential. All that was really said was as long as the ammo is from a reputable manufacturer it should be fine. So that sorta tells me, hand loaders are on our own here and that the pistol was probably designed around current factory offerings and not really pushed with true 10mm loads. |
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Posted: 1/2/2022 12:30:44 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: * * * . The 10mm must be able to handle 200 gr. WFN/LBT loads loaded to 1200 fps from the 4.6" barrel. Specifically something along the lines of a 200 gr. WFN hard cast, similar to what Underwood and Buffalo Bore use in their 200 grain hard cast loads. The gun also needs to reliably shoot 180 grain XTP's to 1300 fps and 180 Gold Dots to 1200, or run at 37,000 psi in other words. Quote HistoryQuoted: * * * . The 10mm must be able to handle 200 gr. WFN/LBT loads loaded to 1200 fps from the 4.6" barrel. Specifically something along the lines of a 200 gr. WFN hard cast, similar to what Underwood and Buffalo Bore use in their 200 grain hard cast loads. The gun also needs to reliably shoot 180 grain XTP's to 1300 fps and 180 Gold Dots to 1200, or run at 37,000 psi in other words. Yep. Exactly what I said back on page 1 of this thread. A REAL 10mm pistol needs to be able to run hitch-free on REAL 10mm factory ammo or the user's handloaded equivalents, not just the 40-level junk loads. Any so-called "10mm" pistol can be made to look good shooting the diluted stuff, but that's not what 99.9% of 10mm users are buying the gun for. Otherwise, they'd just stick with a .40S&W pistol and call it good. I've now seen two Youtuber's lose the red dot sight while shooting and several are having issues with failure to feed on the warmer loads. I think this guy does a good job of running "real" 10mm ammo through the pistol and he's now somewhat got it running with a heavier recoil spring that he modified. To be fair, almost all 10mm pistols have had "first model year" teething problems, a fact that goes back to the Bren Ten. For example, several early reports on the first S.A. 10mm XDMs cited the fiber-optic front sight being launched into orbit when shooting the high-performance ammo. https://youtu.be/ikRJUzZLrmE I could be wrong, but I think it's going to need a combination of recoil and magazines springs and it's very disappointing that it appears that S&W didn't figure this out prior to release. As a reloader I can modify COL to help with feeding issues. Now I'm reading the trigger is nothing to write home about either. Meanwhile the Springfield I handled has a nice trigger and from what I've read it seems to be humming along, I really wanted to go S&W, but I'm going to wait and see for now. The trigger criticisms don't bother me, as that's more of a personal thing. But at this late date with the 10mm AUTO (it's been around since 1983 - so we're now 39-yrs down the road  ), you'd think any gun manufacturer venturing into the 10mm-market would've learned something, and of course this is the second time for S&W. They should've had the proportional recoil-spring and mag spring weights figured out. The manufacturer of a 10mm pistol shouldn't leave that issue to their customers and the aftermarket companies to fix - and again, especially when they have to know that folks buying the pistol expect it to run without issues on the hot/#real ammo. |
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Posted: 1/2/2022 6:24:36 PM EDT
[#42]
You know, I have to give it to Smith and Wesson for moving towards making all their guns optic ready and making suppressor height sights standard on their guns.
It's more than most companies are doing right now. |
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Posted: 1/2/2022 6:46:26 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know, I have to give it to Smith and Wesson for moving towards making all their guns optic ready and making suppressor height sights standard on their guns. It's more than most companies are doing right now. The suppressor height sights on the 10mm is a bit annoying and I knocked mine off the second I got home and most likely won't replace them with anything. |
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Posted: 1/2/2022 7:11:53 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The suppressor height sights on the 10mm is a bit annoying and I knocked mine off the second I got home and most likely won't replace them with anything. You have an optic right? 
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Posted: 1/2/2022 7:24:55 PM EDT
[#45]
Meanwhile, over on Youtube, Turkeys Opinion, successfully cranked out dozens of rounds of all levels of 10mm ammo accurately with a Springfield 3.8".
The one I handled at the LGS had a good trigger. Regarding the previously mentioned optics issues on the Smiths, I think the two cases I saw may have been due to installation errors. I really want the M&P's to work out. I want both sizes of 10mm as well as a couple of 9's, a .40 and a .45. I’m consolidating my handgun collection in my old age and would prefer to keep it to one model. I'm willing to tinker, even replacing triggers and barrels to achieve high levels of accuracy. I've never owned a Springfield, something about the looks, for one the loaded chamber button on the rear of the slide really turns me off, but at the moment their 3.8" is running ALL levels of 10mm ammo successfully. Springfield recently discontinued one line of pistols and word on the forums is they may be up to something big. I'm holding off at least until after Shot to see what's up. Maybe CZ or Sig will come out with a surprise? I'll say it again if it won't successfully run a 200 grain bullet at over 1100 fps., its not a 10mm. |
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Posted: 1/2/2022 8:10:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meanwhile, over on Youtube, Turkeys Opinion, successfully cranked out dozens of rounds of all levels of 10mm ammo accurately with a Springfield 3.8". The one I handled at the LGS had a good trigger. Regarding the previously mentioned optics issues on the Smiths, I think the two cases I saw may have been due to installation errors. I really want the M&P's to work out. I want both sizes of 10mm as well as a couple of 9's, a .40 and a .45. I’m consolidating my handgun collection in my old age and would prefer to keep it to one model. I'm willing to tinker, even replacing triggers and barrels to achieve high levels of accuracy. I've never owned a Springfield, something about the looks, for one the loaded chamber button on the rear of the slide really turns me off, but at the moment their 3.8" is running ALL levels of 10mm ammo successfully. Springfield recently discontinued one line of pistols and word on the forums is they may be up to something big. I'm holding off at least until after Shot to see what's up. Maybe CZ or Sig will come out with a surprise? I'll say it again if it won't successfully run a 200 grain bullet at over 1100 fps., its not a 10mm. I told you wrong earlier in the thread when I said I was running a Wolff 24 lb spring. I am running a 22 lb spring and use a 20lb in my G20. I shot it some more with 200 gr WFN cast handloads @1200 fps with no failures. At least for the 4.6" models, a guide rod and spring change is all that is necessary. Hopefully Wollf will make a custom guide rod assembly and springs for the 4" model soon. |
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Posted: 1/2/2022 8:12:24 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meanwhile, over on Youtube, Turkeys Opinion, successfully cranked out dozens of rounds of all levels of 10mm ammo accurately with a Springfield 3.8". The one I handled at the LGS had a good trigger. Regarding the previously mentioned optics issues on the Smiths, I think the two cases I saw may have been due to installation errors. I really want the M&P's to work out. I want both sizes of 10mm as well as a couple of 9's, a .40 and a .45. I’m consolidating my handgun collection in my old age and would prefer to keep it to one model. I'm willing to tinker, even replacing triggers and barrels to achieve high levels of accuracy. I've never owned a Springfield, something about the looks, for one the loaded chamber button on the rear of the slide really turns me off, but at the moment their 3.8" is running ALL levels of 10mm ammo successfully. Springfield recently discontinued one line of pistols and word on the forums is they may be up to something big. I'm holding off at least until after Shot to see what's up. Maybe CZ or Sig will come out with a surprise? I'll say it again if it won't successfully run a 200 grain bullet at over 1100 fps., its not a 10mm. I’d point out one thing - YouTube channels are showing us sample sizes of 1. I do think a 17 lb recoil spring is too light for 10mm with a slide on the lighting side, and, assuming the design is good, I fully expect a heavier spring to resolve all the issues. Give it a few months. It’s way too soon yo make a final decision on the M&P 10. We’ll see aftermarket recoil springs air if ally to fit the M&P 10 designs pretty soon. |
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Posted: 1/2/2022 9:25:24 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I told you wrong earlier in the thread when I said I was running a Wolff 24 lb spring. I am running a 22 lb spring and use a 20lb in my G20. I shot it some more with 200 gr WFN cast handloads @1200 fps with no failures. At least for the 4.6" models, a guide rod and spring change is all that is necessary. Hopefully Wollf will make a custom guide rod assembly and springs for the 4" model soon. Does the .45 springs work? I know the 10mm is using the .45 frame. |
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Posted: 1/2/2022 11:31:18 PM EDT
[#49]
Does anyone know if the thumb safety delete is the same on the 10 mm?
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Posted: 1/3/2022 12:47:27 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You have an optic right? Yes, it's wearing a Holosun 508T. |
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