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Posted: 1/3/2020 1:17:22 AM EDT
[#1]
I know that the new 115gr Army load is essentially a FMJ 9bple; ie 1300fps+ from a service length pistol barrel.
It's definitely spicier then our previous 124gr @ 1180. |
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Posted: 1/3/2020 1:40:26 AM EDT
[#2]
Might be more accurate @ 50 yds, then? Staying supersonic past that?
In Iraq, I figgered I'd need a 12" bbl to keep M882 supersonic to 50 yds in 120 degree heat. |
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Posted: 1/3/2020 7:53:49 AM EDT
[#3]
The m1153 is supposed to be the JHP, 147gr @ subsonic. Probably a cheap (by current standards) JHP like the hishock, or winchester equivalent. Highly doubt it's bonded or performs well at all in heavy clothing tests, I'd guess it more like a OTM than actual JHP.
The 1152 is 115gr FMJ SCW @ screaming hot. Best I remember the clipped nose style bullets produce much more tissue damage by ripping and tearing instead of pushing through/past. The added velocity probably helps a lot. An article I saw said nearly 40kpsi chamber pressure, definitely no slouch. |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 9:07:28 AM EDT
[#4]
I was seeing Win 115 FP with crimped primer case marked wra 18 or 19 it always seemed hotter than other stuff . it was in the Win Brown box service grade , now this ammo is just reg 115 fmj round tip marked win 9 mm . in brown box I do not buy it now .
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Posted: 1/4/2020 1:52:27 PM EDT
[#5]
How did it work for you? Any feed issues with guns designed for 124gr ball?
The targetsport box was colored, and advertised as m1152. |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 7:02:54 PM EDT
[#6]
I have not had any problem with the Win Service grade flat tip 115 gr and crimped primer , also seemed hotter , but the last two 500 rd cartons I got are 115 fmj rd tip and no crimp and just marked win 9mm . I liked the hotter flat tip stuff now I do not see it .
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Posted: 1/6/2020 7:25:44 AM EDT
[#7]
Targetsport m1152 link
Right here, just a bit more expensive than m882. I think it could be worth it to stack deep. |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 10:39:45 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have not had any problem with the Win Service grade flat tip 115 gr and crimped primer , also seemed hotter , but the last two 500 rd cartons I got are 115 fmj rd tip and no crimp and just marked win 9mm . I liked the hotter flat tip stuff now I do not see it . |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 11:23:33 AM EDT
[#9]
Anyone sell commercial M1153? I didn’t see it at TSUSA.
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Posted: 1/6/2020 1:49:11 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Was it marked as the M1152? It would piss me off if I ordered M1152 and got typical Win 115gr FMJ... Quoted:
Anyone sell commercial M1153? I didn’t see it at TSUSA. I can't find the m1153 anywhere. Albeit I'm not trying too hard. It would probably cost a lot more than 147gr HST and not perform as well, but I'd still love to see it tested anyway. |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 8:18:16 PM EDT
[#11]
What's the allure to paying $37 more per case for this?
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Posted: 1/7/2020 5:44:18 AM EDT
[#12]
This seems like the older Win service grade that was out with the flat tip crimped in primers , it was hotter than reg 115 gr stuff and shot great . the new win service stuff is just 115 fmj and head stamp has Win 9mm
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Posted: 1/7/2020 10:44:59 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's the allure to paying $37 more per case for this? |
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Posted: 1/7/2020 12:25:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hot flat point to stack deep because FP performs better in flesh, in the event of big igloos or fecal fans. |
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Posted: 1/7/2020 12:27:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hot flat point to stack deep because FP performs better in flesh, in the event of big igloos or fecal fans. |
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Posted: 1/7/2020 1:37:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
I have HST for flesh and I don't think I'll be expending a whole lot of 9mm if the SHTF. FMJ is practice ammo for me so the cheaper the better. Quoted: But worse than any hollowpoint. Better than ball, still affordable. I generally concur that the cheaper the better for training. Honestly I don't mind if training ammo jams, as long as reputable ball and carry ammo works fine. How else are you going to train to clear a jam that wasn't predicted? |
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Posted: 1/7/2020 7:47:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's the allure to paying $37 more per case for this? Having more recoil, its also likely a better (although not perfect) recoil match to most factory 124gr+P. Thats the main attraction. |
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Posted: 1/8/2020 7:35:36 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 115gr @ 1300fps makes it pretty much ideal training ammo to pair with 115gr 9BPLE @ 1300fps. Having more recoil, its also likely a better (although not perfect) recoil match to most factory 124gr+P. Thats the main attraction. I still switched to 124+p HST about 6 months ago since depleting the bple stash and my paycheck letting me upgrade. The bple and hst loads definitely have some sauce compared to bulk ball. |
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Posted: 1/8/2020 10:46:28 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anybody still carrying 9bple? Figured I was the last holdout. Stuff works though. Jellied deer lungs, shattered ribs going in and out at 10 yards. Thick rib too, either I pulled the shot or hit a twig. Absolutely destroyed a groundhog, kinda deboned it. Jacket fragments tell me it expands almost instantly. I still switched to 124+p HST about 6 months ago since depleting the bple stash and my paycheck letting me upgrade. The bple and hst loads definitely have some sauce compared to bulk ball. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: 115gr @ 1300fps makes it pretty much ideal training ammo to pair with 115gr 9BPLE @ 1300fps. Having more recoil, its also likely a better (although not perfect) recoil match to most factory 124gr+P. Thats the main attraction. I still switched to 124+p HST about 6 months ago since depleting the bple stash and my paycheck letting me upgrade. The bple and hst loads definitely have some sauce compared to bulk ball. |
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Posted: 1/9/2020 2:24:08 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anybody still carrying 9bple? Figured I was the last holdout. Stuff works though. Jellied deer lungs, shattered ribs going in and out at 10 yards. Thick rib too, either I pulled the shot or hit a twig. Absolutely destroyed a groundhog, kinda deboned it. Jacket fragments tell me it expands almost instantly. I still switched to 124+p HST about 6 months ago since depleting the bple stash and my paycheck letting me upgrade. The bple and hst loads definitely have some sauce compared to bulk ball. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: 115gr @ 1300fps makes it pretty much ideal training ammo to pair with 115gr 9BPLE @ 1300fps. Having more recoil, its also likely a better (although not perfect) recoil match to most factory 124gr+P. Thats the main attraction. I still switched to 124+p HST about 6 months ago since depleting the bple stash and my paycheck letting me upgrade. The bple and hst loads definitely have some sauce compared to bulk ball. -Solid performance -Cheap; $0.30-$0.36 per shot, affordable to actually train / test with / buy in bulk. -Performs well from 3.5"-16" barrels (with great velocity increase in 8-16"), making it an ideal general purpose handgun and SMG/PCC round. Glad to hear it performs well on deer. |
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Posted: 1/9/2020 10:44:20 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's still my preferred load of choice. -Solid performance -Cheap; $0.30-$0.36 per shot, affordable to actually train / test with / buy in bulk. -Performs well from 3.5"-16" barrels (with great velocity increase in 8-16"), making it an ideal general purpose handgun and SMG/PCC round. Glad to hear it performs well on deer. While it isn't as proven as bple, it seems to be a much better round all together, particularly being bonded. Before I gutted my last deer (already dead), I put a 124gr HST +p in it's neck at close range to see how it would do in real meat (wasn't going to wreck a quarter). 9mm entrance, half dollar exit, minimal hydrostatic damage, zero jacket fragments. Did not hit spine. I bet the bple is a great subgun load, and honestly out of my g19 with octane 45, it suppresses well enough, so from a 8+ barrel it's probably really screaming and the lower muzzle pressure should suppress even better. I'd carry bple any day and not feel undergunned. |
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Posted: 1/9/2020 10:57:40 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's still my preferred load of choice. -Solid performance -Cheap; $0.30-$0.36 per shot, affordable to actually train / test with / buy in bulk. -Performs well from 3.5"-16" barrels (with great velocity increase in 8-16"), making it an ideal general purpose handgun and SMG/PCC round. Glad to hear it performs well on deer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: 115gr @ 1300fps makes it pretty much ideal training ammo to pair with 115gr 9BPLE @ 1300fps. Having more recoil, its also likely a better (although not perfect) recoil match to most factory 124gr+P. Thats the main attraction. I still switched to 124+p HST about 6 months ago since depleting the bple stash and my paycheck letting me upgrade. The bple and hst loads definitely have some sauce compared to bulk ball. -Solid performance -Cheap; $0.30-$0.36 per shot, affordable to actually train / test with / buy in bulk. -Performs well from 3.5"-16" barrels (with great velocity increase in 8-16"), making it an ideal general purpose handgun and SMG/PCC round. Glad to hear it performs well on deer. Id rather shoot nato than 9bple |
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Posted: 1/9/2020 8:21:48 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
9bple barely makes 12" in service sized guns. Penatration will be significantly hindered with longer barrels. Id rather shoot nato than 9bple Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: 115gr @ 1300fps makes it pretty much ideal training ammo to pair with 115gr 9BPLE @ 1300fps. Having more recoil, its also likely a better (although not perfect) recoil match to most factory 124gr+P. Thats the main attraction. I still switched to 124+p HST about 6 months ago since depleting the bple stash and my paycheck letting me upgrade. The bple and hst loads definitely have some sauce compared to bulk ball. -Solid performance -Cheap; $0.30-$0.36 per shot, affordable to actually train / test with / buy in bulk. -Performs well from 3.5"-16" barrels (with great velocity increase in 8-16"), making it an ideal general purpose handgun and SMG/PCC round. Glad to hear it performs well on deer. Id rather shoot nato than 9bple At higher velocities, 9BPLE performs similarly to the old 125gr SJHP .357: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8WNQxIjutc The bullet expands explosively, then the front 1/4 of the bullet fragments away, leaving a jagged ~0.5" expanded projectile to keep on penetrating. That performance actually makes it ideal for 8-16" barrels as it cannot overexpand. Fragmentation in this case serves as a sort of safety valve, allowing the bullet to return to a more normal frontal expanded diameter and penetrate sufficiently. Here's 9BLE performance at 1432fps from a CZ Scorpion. 13" penetration, with jagged base 0.48" https://youtu.be/IxGPiMIMBYw?t=415 Here's another 9BPLE test, showing the effects from 3",4", and relevant to us, 6" @ 1407fps. Bullet fragments and penetrates to 14": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Rx_Mf2PTY Whereas the HST from a 16" (1476fps average) lacks that frontal fragmentation, and subsequently underpenetrates as its expanded to 0.8", only penetrating 9.7": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7PoC57Olak |
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Posted: 1/10/2020 9:43:23 AM EDT
[#24]
Im not sure any conclusions can be gleaned from single shots, and comparing clear gel vs organic.
The penatration difference between a 3 and a 4" barrel might be the same as the first shot and third from one barrel length. |
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Posted: 1/11/2020 5:37:41 AM EDT
[#25]
This is the same ammo that I was getting a year ago in the Win Brown bo Service grade , seemed hot and shoot real good out of my L/E Sig W 320 a tac driver . The Win Service in that same box is just marked Win 9mm on the head stamp like white box .
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Posted: 1/11/2020 9:01:19 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the same ammo that I was getting a year ago in the Win Brown bo Service grade , seemed hot and shoot real good out of my L/E Sig W 320 a tac driver . The Win Service in that same box is just marked Win 9mm on the head stamp like white box . |
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Posted: 1/11/2020 9:22:19 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the same ammo that I was getting a year ago in the Win Brown bo Service grade , seemed hot and shoot real good out of my L/E Sig W 320 a tac driver . The Win Service in that same box is just marked Win 9mm on the head stamp like white box . |
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Posted: 1/12/2020 10:27:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It should be considered "hot". The pressure on the M1152 is 39,750 PSI. That's almost in +P+ territory. Mind you +P is 38,000 PSI and standard 9mm is 35,000 PSI. Frankly the Services can afford to run them hot. They have plenty of spare parts and technically it doesn't cost them anything to do so. After 30k I'm not sweating a service grade pistol being worn out. |
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Posted: 1/12/2020 11:54:10 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the chamber will handle it, even being privately funded, what's the difference between 5k and 3k for changing a recoil spring or 50k and 30k for service life? After 30k I'm not sweating a service grade pistol being worn out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: It should be considered "hot". The pressure on the M1152 is 39,750 PSI. That's almost in +P+ territory. Mind you +P is 38,000 PSI and standard 9mm is 35,000 PSI. Frankly the Services can afford to run them hot. They have plenty of spare parts and technically it doesn't cost them anything to do so. After 30k I'm not sweating a service grade pistol being worn out. From another thread: "Will +P+ damage your gun? It's sort of like your car. If you drive your car 100 mph everywhere everyday will your car last as long as if you only drove it 50 mph everyday? When we went to the W-W+P+ rd there were 'experts' claiming our S&W 5904/6904 would never stand the use. One of our range officers decided to shoot his issued 5904 until it simply could not function. He documented every +P+ rd fired thru his 5904. Around 50,000 rds the accuracy started to worsen due to rifling being worn nearly smooth. He replaced the barrel. He replaced the springs at interval but I don't recall now the round count for that. When he retired he had documented 80,000 rds thru his 5904 and it was still shooting. He bought that 5904 when he retired and continued shooting it for several years longer. I haven't been in touch with him in several years so don't know if the 5904 is still going. Not saying every 5904 would go 80,000 rds. His was off the rack, not special, issued firearm. To put 80,000 rds in perspective. Let's say you bought 50 rd boxes. That would be 1600 boxes. And let's say you paid $25/box. That much ammo would cost you $40,000. Not likely most on this entire forum will every spend $40,000 for ammo, particularly for just 1 gun." Little worry that a 21st century polymer pistol will wear out from comparable loads. Especially as most (Glock, M&P, Sig) are built to also fire .40 and .357 sig, both of which are far hasher on the gun in terms of recoil force. |
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Posted: 1/13/2020 12:43:18 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. Aluminum framed pistols from the 80's were able to handle 10's of thousands of rounds of 9BPLE (115gr 38,500.) From another thread: "Will +P+ damage your gun? It's sort of like your car. If you drive your car 100 mph everywhere everyday will your car last as long as if you only drove it 50 mph everyday? When we went to the W-W+P+ rd there were 'experts' claiming our S&W 5904/6904 would never stand the use. One of our range officers decided to shoot his issued 5904 until it simply could not function. He documented every +P+ rd fired thru his 5904. Around 50,000 rds the accuracy started to worsen due to rifling being worn nearly smooth. He replaced the barrel. He replaced the springs at interval but I don't recall now the round count for that. When he retired he had documented 80,000 rds thru his 5904 and it was still shooting. He bought that 5904 when he retired and continued shooting it for several years longer. I haven't been in touch with him in several years so don't know if the 5904 is still going. Not saying every 5904 would go 80,000 rds. His was off the rack, not special, issued firearm. To put 80,000 rds in perspective. Let's say you bought 50 rd boxes. That would be 1600 boxes. And let's say you paid $25/box. That much ammo would cost you $40,000. Not likely most on this entire forum will every spend $40,000 for ammo, particularly for just 1 gun." Little worry that a 21st century polymer pistol will wear out from comparable loads. Especially as most (Glock, M&P, Sig) are built to also fire .40 and .357 sig, both of which are far hasher on the gun in terms of recoil force. It is actually worse for military guns. You'd probably puke if you saw how poorly they're maintained. While one of my very good friends, a brother, a lifelong shooter, and armorer, was asked (in uniform) "when do you change the recoil springs?" His reply was "we don't, we don't even stock them". If that isn't telling about how the supply system doesn't give a shit about pistols, I don't know what is. They don't care as long as it passes a function check and has a legible serial number. Since I tend to feed my pistols a steady diet of nato loads, I keep recoil springs on hand. They're cheap, if you can afford to shoot the damn thing, you can afford a recoil spring even every 2krds. When they start feeling weak or the slide gets slow to battery, I swap them. Or if they won't go into battery when held muzzle up, and the slide is opened gently just out of battery and slowly released (best I remember from glock armorer manual). Screw it, a g19 spring is, what, $8? |
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Posted: 1/13/2020 10:34:21 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, instead of an edit to my above, I'd add... It is actually worse for military guns. You'd probably puke if you saw how poorly they're maintained. While one of my very good friends, a brother, a lifelong shooter, and armorer, was asked (in uniform) "when do you change the recoil springs?" His reply was "we don't, we don't even stock them". If that isn't telling about how the supply system doesn't give a shit about pistols, I don't know what is. They don't care as long as it passes a function check and has a legible serial number. Since I tend to feed my pistols a steady diet of nato loads, I keep recoil springs on hand. They're cheap, if you can afford to shoot the damn thing, you can afford a recoil spring even every 2krds. When they start feeling weak or the slide gets slow to battery, I swap them. Or if they won't go into battery when held muzzle up, and the slide is opened gently just out of battery and slowly released (best I remember from glock armorer manual). Screw it, a g19 spring is, what, $8? |
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Posted: 1/13/2020 12:06:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, instead of an edit to my above, I'd add... It is actually worse for military guns. You'd probably puke if you saw how poorly they're maintained. While one of my very good friends, a brother, a lifelong shooter, and armorer, was asked (in uniform) "when do you change the recoil springs?" His reply was "we don't, we don't even stock them". If that isn't telling about how the supply system doesn't give a shit about pistols, I don't know what is. They don't care as long as it passes a function check and has a legible serial number. Since I tend to feed my pistols a steady diet of nato loads, I keep recoil springs on hand. They're cheap, if you can afford to shoot the damn thing, you can afford a recoil spring even every 2krds. When they start feeling weak or the slide gets slow to battery, I swap them. Or if they won't go into battery when held muzzle up, and the slide is opened gently just out of battery and slowly released (best I remember from glock armorer manual). Screw it, a g19 spring is, what, $8? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Yep. Aluminum framed pistols from the 80's were able to handle 10's of thousands of rounds of 9BPLE (115gr 38,500.) From another thread: "Will +P+ damage your gun? It's sort of like your car. If you drive your car 100 mph everywhere everyday will your car last as long as if you only drove it 50 mph everyday? When we went to the W-W+P+ rd there were 'experts' claiming our S&W 5904/6904 would never stand the use. One of our range officers decided to shoot his issued 5904 until it simply could not function. He documented every +P+ rd fired thru his 5904. Around 50,000 rds the accuracy started to worsen due to rifling being worn nearly smooth. He replaced the barrel. He replaced the springs at interval but I don't recall now the round count for that. When he retired he had documented 80,000 rds thru his 5904 and it was still shooting. He bought that 5904 when he retired and continued shooting it for several years longer. I haven't been in touch with him in several years so don't know if the 5904 is still going. Not saying every 5904 would go 80,000 rds. His was off the rack, not special, issued firearm. To put 80,000 rds in perspective. Let's say you bought 50 rd boxes. That would be 1600 boxes. And let's say you paid $25/box. That much ammo would cost you $40,000. Not likely most on this entire forum will every spend $40,000 for ammo, particularly for just 1 gun." Little worry that a 21st century polymer pistol will wear out from comparable loads. Especially as most (Glock, M&P, Sig) are built to also fire .40 and .357 sig, both of which are far hasher on the gun in terms of recoil force. It is actually worse for military guns. You'd probably puke if you saw how poorly they're maintained. While one of my very good friends, a brother, a lifelong shooter, and armorer, was asked (in uniform) "when do you change the recoil springs?" His reply was "we don't, we don't even stock them". If that isn't telling about how the supply system doesn't give a shit about pistols, I don't know what is. They don't care as long as it passes a function check and has a legible serial number. Since I tend to feed my pistols a steady diet of nato loads, I keep recoil springs on hand. They're cheap, if you can afford to shoot the damn thing, you can afford a recoil spring even every 2krds. When they start feeling weak or the slide gets slow to battery, I swap them. Or if they won't go into battery when held muzzle up, and the slide is opened gently just out of battery and slowly released (best I remember from glock armorer manual). Screw it, a g19 spring is, what, $8? Sort of reminds me of the reports about "problems" with the M249. All of the reports with guys using newish, recently fielded M249's were very positive vis a vis reliability. Then there were reports of the gun jamming / sucking - and digging deeper, they were all beat to shit guns horribly beyond their maintainance cycle, which were then handed off to troops in Afghanistan rather then going back to the armorer. So it's easy to imagine their service pistols - far less important then the M249 - will suffer even worse neglect. Along those lines, kinda makes me wonder why they are fielding a 1300fps FMJ load? Unless the bullet tumbles, a FMJ @ 1300fps is not going to any more damaging then a 115gr @ 1150. Especially weird since the service JHP is a 147gr subsonic, 300fps slower.... Still, I'm not complaining. 9BPLE does around 1600fps from a 16" barrel, so this new M1152 should make for an awesome, flatshooting plinking round for the Ruger PCC9. |
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Posted: 1/13/2020 1:40:44 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, instead of an edit to my above, I'd add... It is actually worse for military guns. You'd probably puke if you saw how poorly they're maintained. While one of my very good friends, a brother, a lifelong shooter, and armorer, was asked (in uniform) "when do you change the recoil springs?" His reply was "we don't, we don't even stock them". If that isn't telling about how the supply system doesn't give a shit about pistols, I don't know what is. They don't care as long as it passes a function check and has a legible serial number. Since I tend to feed my pistols a steady diet of nato loads, I keep recoil springs on hand. They're cheap, if you can afford to shoot the damn thing, you can afford a recoil spring even every 2krds. When they start feeling weak or the slide gets slow to battery, I swap them. Or if they won't go into battery when held muzzle up, and the slide is opened gently just out of battery and slowly released (best I remember from glock armorer manual). Screw it, a g19 spring is, what, $8? |
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Posted: 1/13/2020 2:39:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is the biggest factor in so many people hating the Beretta 92, thinking it's garbage when the reality is they were shooting a pistol that had been abused for 30 years by the time they got it. Give it a few years and it's going to be the exact same song and dance with the P320… They are still pretty garbage as base models though. Really needs some aftermarket work to convince me it's better than a g17. Maybe if the recoil springs got replaced the frames and locking blocks wouldn't crack. |
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Posted: 1/13/2020 5:10:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is the biggest factor in so many people hating the Beretta 92, thinking it's garbage when the reality is they were shooting a pistol that had been abused for 30 years by the time they got it. Give it a few years and it's going to be the exact same song and dance with the P320… |
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Posted: 1/13/2020 7:19:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Shot some the new m1152 today, felt solid and was accurate out of my g17!
 Attached FileL to R. Standard federal 115 fmj, new m1152 115 gr, federal 9pble 115 gr +p+ hp, Winchester 124 gr fmj  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/17/2020 5:35:46 AM EDT
[#37]
My older cases of Win 124 Nato has the cross on the head stamp , my new 115 1152 does not but is hot stuff .
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