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Posted: 5/18/2022 11:24:43 AM EDT
Once upon a time I had terrible undiagnosed flinch and blamed the gun, the ammo, whatever - for years. In desperation one day I asked an older shooter in the lane next to me to shoot my HK USP, as I was certain something was wrong with it. He wore out the bullseye and handed it back to me. That moment set me on the right path.

So I enjoy helping people shortcut what took me a long time to realize and then remediate. I have had a lot of success helping people go from flinch-fest, low left groups into shooting extremely accurately in short order. Whether they can maintain it is up to how much they dry fire at home and remember the topics below.

This is how the process typically goes:

1. Sight picture, do they understand how to line up the sights correctly (you laugh, but "I didn't know you needed the rear sight" is something I've heard after 3-4 minutes of trying to decipher the groups I was seeing). To keep it simple for basic marksmanship, I advocate a hard front sight focus with only dominant eye open (unless you have a red dot, which is a lot better ... but I digress )

2. Grip, do they have some sort of "modern" ISO + thumbs forward grip with no air gaps, etc. This helps with repeatable and quick return to target. The old Todd Jarret video is a good one.

3. Trigger Press, can they - during dry fire - demonstrate consistently they can press the trigger to the rear without disturbing the sights. Most people can do this reasonably well.

4. Unlearn the Flinch. This is typically the real issue. If they have 1-2-3, it is almost certainly a flinch with presents itself during live fire. A flinch is a learned response in anticipation of noise/recoil and it is almost always undiagnosed (as in, the person is unaware they have it - after all, their dry fire is gtg, right?). Well, the brain is not stupid and your subconscious knows the difference between live fire and dry fire - Ive seen this play out dozens and dozens of time. When confronted with their flinch, they can acknowledge it and look to improve, or you can shut down. I've seen both paths taken. This is what I've found that works.

How to fix - a flinch must be unlearned. While it is picked up unintentionally - it must be deliberately slain within the mind of shooter and I have had great success doing this using snap caps (dummy rounds). This is what I do:
- Place shooter at 7 yards with cardboard target and a generous aiming point (an X, a drawn circle, etc).
- I will mix their magazine with both live ammo and snap caps, randomly. I have them load without looking into the mag to see the order of things to come.
- Upon the beep (you dont have to have a timer but you should), they slowly draw and fire 1 shot for accuracy at the aiming point (we are going for max accuracy, but might as well get in the reps)
- I'm watching the muzzle of the pistol like a hawk. When the shooter hits a snap cap, you may see the gun jerk slightly, the arms/gun may dip, or sights wobble. After a few snap caps have been "shot" and they recognize they do indeed have a flinch, I start to verbally coach them "Pretend this next shot is a dummy round - press the trigger to the rear and let it surprise you. Do not try to anticipate it or control the gun, just let the striker fall just like your dry fire". If they persist in flinching, we go back to some dry fire to verify (to them) they can do it.
- Eventually, it starts to connect. Some people it may take several range sessions, but Ive seen others drop a bad flinch within a box of ammo. Usually, when you start to stack rounds, it helps their confidence a lot as well, as does pinging steel at distance.

This mastery over the flinch has to become completely automatic - especially when you start adding speed and dynamic shooting stages, or else a flinch can creep back in if you do not guard against it. At first it may take a lot of mental power to not anticipate the recoil, but it soon becomes reflexive.

ETA:

The Secret to Mastering the Handgun (complete video)

Link Posted: 5/18/2022 1:43:33 PM EDT
[#1]
I think suppressors are the most underutilized tool for fixing the flinch in any shooter.

A suppressed .22 allows the shooter to completely concentrate on the fundamentals, no flash, no blast, no noise.  If available, move up to a suppressed centerfire (hopefully something familiar to the shooter), then remove the can to see a world of difference.
Link Posted: 5/18/2022 1:46:00 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I think suppressors are the most underutilized tool for fixing the flinch in any shooter.

A suppressed .22 allows the shooter to completely concentrate on the fundamentals, no flash, no blast, no noise.  If available, move up to a suppressed centerfire (hopefully something familiar to the shooter), then remove the can to see a world of difference.
View Quote
Yup
Link Posted: 5/18/2022 2:33:18 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I think suppressors are the most underutilized tool for fixing the flinch in any shooter.

A suppressed .22 allows the shooter to completely concentrate on the fundamentals, no flash, no blast, no noise.  If available, move up to a suppressed centerfire (hopefully something familiar to the shooter), then remove the can to see a world of difference.
View Quote


I will definitely try this if it's not raining tonight.  I am currently struggling with poor marksmanship and never thought to compare my results with and without a can.

I have the means so it's worth a shot!

Link Posted: 5/18/2022 2:39:49 PM EDT
[#4]
I don't flinch because of noise but I do anticipate recoil.

I flinch because I try and pull the trigger quickly when my sights are perfectly aligned.

It works pretty well!

I am actually a very good pistol shot and have no problem shooting out to 100 yards with a handgun.

I squirrel and rabbit hunt with a .22 Pistol or revolver.

I have a very consistent flinch!
Link Posted: 5/18/2022 3:13:52 PM EDT
[#5]
In on this, thanks!
Link Posted: 5/18/2022 4:47:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Well stated. Except that the flinch is a learned response.

It's actually an evolutionary trait. That's why we duck a little and raise our shoulders. To protect our brain and arteries in our neck.

We have to fight evolution.

If someone doesn't flinch naturally then there's something wrong with them
Link Posted: 5/18/2022 4:50:26 PM EDT
[#7]
If you dryfire more than you life fire...you won't flinch.  


Link Posted: 5/18/2022 7:18:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 5/19/2022 2:37:40 AM EDT
[#9]
I notice that I habituate and flinch less the more I shoot during a range session, but then the flinch is back at the beginning of the next range session (with current ammo prices, I shoot once every 6-7 weeks, but dryfire ore). Maybe it would go away if I did a range session once or twice a week. But I think it might come back if I didn't shoot for a month because it sure seems instinctual. Though I did learn not to "turtle" but to shoot from an upright position (and turtling is also kinda natural).

I mitigate flinch with my support hand having a stronger grip, though I also went to a P365-380 with a WC-XL grip for CCW just because I'm so much faster and more accurate. I'm sure 75% of that is because less recoil means faster recovery, but I bet maybe 25% of it is the lack of (or reduced) flinch.

I was surprised at how much better I am (smaller/faster groups) with 380 compared to 9mm (is anyone as good with a G43 as they are with a G42?). Smaller explosions mean smaller flinch, but at some point a flinch is so small it's not really noticeable. That's what happens to me when I shoot things smaller than 9mm like 380, 32 Long, 22LR.

I should get some of the 65-70gr 9mm ammo, and see how much difference that softer shooting stuff makes. I assume it still has a big bang, so it would maybe help show how much is recoil/recovery and how much is flinch.
Link Posted: 5/19/2022 3:26:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I notice that I habituate and flinch less the more I shoot during a range session, but then the flinch is back at the beginning of the next range session.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I notice that I habituate and flinch less the more I shoot during a range session, but then the flinch is back at the beginning of the next range session.


Interestingly, I'm the opposite. I flinch more as the range session goes on. Especially as fatigue sets in.



Good stuff. What he said about the support hand makes sense for me - if I lock my support hand down as tight as possible, I can control my flinchies a lot better. But this is why I flinch more as the muscles in my hands get fatigued - it takes more mental effort to keep that support hand locked down, so it becomes easier to slip up and loosen it a bit.
Link Posted: 5/19/2022 3:59:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I think suppressors are the most underutilized tool for fixing the flinch in any shooter.

A suppressed .22 allows the shooter to completely concentrate on the fundamentals, no flash, no blast, no noise.  If available, move up to a suppressed centerfire (hopefully something familiar to the shooter), then remove the can to see a world of difference.
View Quote


You forgot one key thing the 22LR will do... Since 22LR is known for malfunctions it allows the shooter to also experience malfunctions where they observe the jerks/yanks/clinches with the sight on the pistol without recoil/bang/pistol cycle.  Kind of similar to shooting snap caps mixed in the mag which is also another way you can do it.
Link Posted: 5/19/2022 4:17:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I notice that I habituate and flinch less the more I shoot during a range session, but then the flinch is back at the beginning of the next range session (with current ammo prices, I shoot once every 6-7 weeks, but dryfire ore). Maybe it would go away if I did a range session once or twice a week. But I think it might come back if I didn't shoot for a month because it sure seems instinctual. Though I did learn not to "turtle" but to shoot from an upright position (and turtling is also kinda natural).

I mitigate flinch with my support hand having a stronger grip, though I also went to a P365-380 with a WC-XL grip for CCW just because I'm so much faster and more accurate. I'm sure 75% of that is because less recoil means faster recovery, but I bet maybe 25% of it is the lack of (or reduced) flinch.

I was surprised at how much better I am (smaller/faster groups) with 380 compared to 9mm (is anyone as good with a G43 as they are with a G42?). Smaller explosions mean smaller flinch, but at some point a flinch is so small it's not really noticeable. That's what happens to me when I shoot things smaller than 9mm like 380, 32 Long, 22LR.

I should get some of the 65-70gr 9mm ammo, and see how much difference that softer shooting stuff makes. I assume it still has a big bang, so it would maybe help show how much is recoil/recovery and how much is flinch.
View Quote


My dad has a bad flinch when he shoots anything it all stems from my uncle making him shoot huge magnum rifles/pistols when he was younger.  I see it still to this day when we go shoot and the best thing I ever did was build him an AR15 and LaRue put a giant brake on their UU kits.  The first time he shot it I saw him clinch and prepare for the onslaught of recoil he is used to.  The moment the shot broke and he came off the rifle he looked at me and said this thing has almost no kick.  Since then the flinch has slowly been going away as he trains his mind that his AR is not going to pop him in the shoulder like his Rem660 350RemMag.  When I bought my first rifle ever my uncle was telling me I need a magnum to take deer you need this XXX Super UltraMag or this Ackley improved Super Duper Arnold Schwarzenegger Ultra Magnum setup.  I went completely against all their advice and bought a Winchester model 70 Stealth in 308 Win.  It has moderate recoil but I had shot magnum rifles of my uncles and hated the punishment each shot was with a super lightweight rifle and it caused me to start building a flinch.  I even shot my uncles 375HH Ackley improved rifle and had it knock me on my ass(I was a tall but slender all my life).  
Point is flinches can be induced by bad info or instruction from people who may not know better, have a flawed ideology, or just an asshole.  Watch YouTube tons of videos of people handing inexperienced shooters way to powerful cartridges in a pistol or rifle to watch someone shoot them not knowing what is about to happen just to get a laugh at them but ignoring the huge safety factor of their actions.  I have seen people do it give a full cylinder 500SW to their girlfriend who has never shot a pistol before to watch what happens and get a laugh.  I was the one who got called the asshole for calling out their b/s and negligence when she cranked off the first round and the recoil made her clinch sending a second round into the sky plus busting her in the face.  They all thought it was funny what happened to her and that I was pissed off.
Link Posted: 5/19/2022 9:33:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Once upon a time I had terrible undiagnosed flinch and blamed the gun, the ammo, whatever - for years. In desperation one day I asked an older shooter in the lane next to me to shoot my HK USP, as I was certain something was wrong with it. He wore out the bullseye and handed it back to me. That moment set me on the right path.

So I enjoy helping people shortcut what took me a long time to realize and then remediate. I have had a lot of success helping people go from flinch-fest, low left groups into shooting extremely accurately in short order. Whether they can maintain it is up to how much they dry fire at home and remember the topics below.

This is how the process typically goes:

1. Sight picture, do they understand how to line up the sights correctly (you laugh, but "I didn't know you needed the rear sight" is something I've heard after 3-4 minutes of trying to decipher the groups I was seeing). To keep it simple for basic marksmanship, I advocate a hard front sight focus with only dominant eye open (unless you have a red dot, which is a lot better ... but I digress )

2. Grip, do they have some sort of "modern" ISO + thumbs forward grip with no air gaps, etc. This helps with repeatable and quick return to target. The old Todd Jarret video is a good one.

3. Trigger Press, can they - during dry fire - demonstrate consistently they can press the trigger to the rear without disturbing the sights. Most people can do this reasonably well.

4. Unlearn the Flinch. This is typically the real issue. If they have 1-2-3, it is almost certainly a flinch with presents itself during live fire. A flinch is a learned response in anticipation of noise/recoil and it is almost always undiagnosed (as in, the person is unaware they have it - after all, their dry fire is gtg, right?). Well, the brain is not stupid and your subconscious knows the difference between live fire and dry fire - Ive seen this play out dozens and dozens of time. When confronted with thief flinch, they can acknowledge it and look to improve, or you can shut down. I've seen both paths taken. This is what I've found that works.

How to fix - a flinch must be unlearned. While it is picked up unintentionally - it must be deliberately slain within the mind of shooter and I have had great success doing this using snap caps (dummy rounds). This is what I do:
- Place shooter at 7 yards with cardboard target and a generous aiming point (an X, a drawn circle, etc).
- I will mix their magazine with both live ammo and snap caps, randomly. I have them load without looking into the mag to see the order of things to come.
- Upon the beep (you dont have to have a timer but you should), they slowly draw and fire 1 shot for accuracy at the aiming point (we are going for max accuracy, but might as well get in the reps)
- I'm watching the muzzle of the pistol like a hawk. When the shooter hits a snap cap, you may see the gun jerk slightly, the arms/gun may dip, or sights wobble. After a few snap caps have been "shot" and they recognize they do indeed have a flinch, I start to verbally coach them "Pretend this next shot is a dummy round - press the trigger to the rear and let it surprise you. Do not try to anticipate it or control the gun, just let the striker fall just like your dry fire". If they persist in flinching, we go back to some dry fire to verify (to them) they can do it.
- Eventually, it starts to connect. Some people it may take several range sessions, but Ive seen others drop a bad flinch within a box of ammo. Usually, when you start to stack rounds, it helps their confidence a lot as well, as does pinging steel at distance.

This mastery over the flinch has to become completely automatic - especially when you start adding speed and dynamic shooting stages, or else a flinch can creep back in if you do not guard against it. At first it may take a lot of mental power to not anticipate the recoil, but it soon becomes reflexive.
View Quote


Excellent read, and your explanation of the process was extremely thorough.
This process is very similar to what we teach Soldiers.
One thing we stress is grip and trigger control first then sight alignment. In that order.
Sight alignment has no effect on grip or trigger control, however if you flip it, grip and trigger control can directly effect your sight alignment. The flinch is all directly related.
Good stuff!
Cp
Link Posted: 5/20/2022 11:50:54 PM EDT
[#14]
I have a flinch that sometimes happens without pulling the trigger, or after pulling the trigger.

Now what, OP?
Link Posted: 6/9/2022 9:57:54 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have a flinch that sometimes happens without pulling the trigger, or after pulling the trigger.

Now what, OP?
View Quote

I'm afraid I can't help with that
Link Posted: 6/9/2022 10:23:31 AM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 6/9/2022 4:40:46 PM EDT
[#17]
Suppressors have made me a much better shooter. But otherwise dummy rounds randomly in the msg will help
Link Posted: 6/10/2022 11:13:39 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 6/10/2022 11:22:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Dry fire does wonders.  I try and do at least one hundred per day.  It has helped to get rid of flinching for me.

Best youtube I've watched on flinching:
How To Stop Flinching. Chuck Pressburg, Field Notes Ep. 46
Link Posted: 6/11/2022 12:33:53 AM EDT
[#20]
What causes the flinch?

Noise?
Flash?
Recoil impulse?
Link Posted: 6/11/2022 12:42:25 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What causes the flinch?

Noise?
Flash?
Recoil impulse?
View Quote


Could be any or all, plus the concussion. Could also be dropping slightly to look over the sights to see how you did. Like topping the ball in golf when you stand up to see your tee shot.

It is not natural to have an explosion happen within arms length of you.

I agree with OP, up to a point. I agree that dry fire isn’t generally the answer. But I don’t think snap caps necessarily are either. They’re useful for identifying the flinch, but to condition away the flinch, you just have to get used to the controlled explosion 3’ from your face. My recommendation is rapid fire with a loose grip and relaxed stance. Remove the tension. Get comfortable. And double up ear pro if indoors. Not a bad idea outdoors, but def needed indoors.
Link Posted: 6/11/2022 1:31:28 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Dry fire does wonders.  I try and do at least one hundred per day.  It has helped to get rid of flinching for me.

Best youtube I've watched on flinching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eETQjJQT68w
View Quote
Had not seen this before but this video is excellent and his observations 100% mirror mine.  He had a lot more info on coping strategies.
Link Posted: 6/11/2022 1:42:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Dry fire does wonders.  I try and do at least one hundred per day.  It has helped to get rid of flinching for me.

Best youtube I've watched on flinching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eETQjJQT68w
View Quote


I agree.  As previously stated “if you dryfire more than live fire you won’t flinch.  You can overtrain a flinch by doing it correctly so many times that the right way becomes habit.
Link Posted: 7/3/2022 7:55:57 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I agree.  As previously stated "if you dryfire more than live fire you won't flinch.  You can overtrain a flinch by doing it correctly so many times that the right way becomes habit.
View Quote
True. But pistol shooting is perishable and a flinch can return.
Link Posted: 8/18/2022 9:29:01 AM EDT
[#25]
One and only bump for flinchers
Link Posted: 10/1/2022 10:43:46 AM EDT
[#26]
Ran across this video on the topic. It exactly mirrors my experience. Also added to OP

If you struggle with accuracy, watch this!

The Secret to Mastering the Handgun (complete video)

Link Posted: 12/13/2022 10:49:05 AM EDT
[#27]
Bump for those in need.

@carcrazysammy - great minds think alike
Link Posted: 12/30/2022 11:20:15 PM EDT
[#28]
Suppressor and maybe load some random empties.
Link Posted: 12/30/2022 11:33:48 PM EDT
[#29]
ETA: I see this is a zombie thread that I replied to earlier. Oh well, I stand by both the earlier post and the following.

You’re post is appropriate for diagnosing a flinch. It doesn’t fix necessarily fix it.

First thing is to double up ear pro. If possible, shoot outside, and not under cover.

Next is to get them to loosen everything up. Loosen grip, loosen stance, shoulders, everything. I’ll even keep my hands on their shoulders to feel when they start to tense up. They need to understand the gun will not fly out of their hands, and get in a more relaxed state.

Then it is a mag dump or two. This is normally a waste of ammo, but the point is to get them used to small explosions happening 3’ from their face.

Then practice focusing on the front sight with a rhythm. Doesn’t have to be rapid fire, but can’t be slow fire. The point here is to keep them from dipping the pistol to look over the sights to see where the shot went. Just like golf, if you look up to see what you did, you’re gonna duff it.

Once you get them shaken free from the flinch, you can work on adding strength back into the stance. Strength is good to mitigate movement under recoil. Being tense isn’t good.
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