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Posted: 2/8/2021 2:03:47 AM EDT
I'm interested in your thoughts on frangible vs hollow point ammunition for self/home defense.
I have ammo for different applications. For home defense, at the moment, I have loaded up with hollow-point by default. However, I am leaning more and more toward using frangible rounds for home defense.  In the standing (upright) magazine, I've loaded my current default for home defense: LeHigh Defense 105-grain Maximum Expansion hollow point 9mm Luger. The other magazine (the one on its side) has full-metal jacket (FMJ) 9mm Remington Range 115gr Luger rounds. Two of the three standing-upright rounds, sitting on the desk, are one each of those first two I've described. The other one of the three rounds standing on the desk is a SinterFire Next Generation Lead-free Ball 100gr 9mm frangible round. This last one has some interesting ballistics. My research leads me to think that this one is the best for metal target range work (indoors, outdoors, up-close tactical training), but also might be the best choice for home defense. It has great stopping power in home defense, but won't go through (typically) and injure others, etc. Law enforcement uses frangible ammo, for that reason, so I am told. Here are some informative videos about frangible rounds: (no, these are not my videos, I am not selling anything, I get nothing by sharing these)  Sinterfire Frangible Ammo Demo - 2018 Anteris Alliance Try & Buy  2020 SHOT Show Fiocchi Frangible Demo at Anteris Alliance  Failed To Load Title From SinterFire:  SinterFire - In Our Own Words I also love Morse code, pipe tobacco, and amateur radio. In this picture, I'm showing my CZ love - my CZ P-07 suppressor-ready 9mm pistol. @czusafirearms #home #defender #defense #firearms #ammo #ammunition #security #pistol #9mm #safetyfirst #safety #czusa #hamradio #hamr #prepper #emcomm #ARRL #CQ #DX #LEO |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 2:10:26 AM EDT
[#1]
No. Frangible is for training on steel and in shoot houses that don't allow ball ammo for to safety or construction concerns.
LE, reputable LE, is using proper hollow points like HST. ETA: not only is frangible usually questionable in reliability (I've fired ALOT of it from many different brands with not great results) it also doesn't have the permanent wounding mechanisms required of pistol ammo (expansion) or rifle ammo (fragmentation). While frangible can be deadly, anything that performs reliably and properly on tissue is going to over penetrate on building materials like sheet rock. |
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Posted: 2/8/2021 11:02:12 PM EDT
[#2]
No, absolutely not. I'm not following how your research led you to believe that it has good "stopping power", but it does excel in allowing people to shoot steel up close safely in a training scenario. I also don't believe I've ever heard anyone claim that LE uses frangible in anything other than training applications.
To be honest, I find your current HP selection questionable as well. There are many well vetted SD loadings out there and in actual use - Speer Gold Dots, Federal HST, Winchester Ranger, etc. I'd even use WWB 147grn JHPs before those Lehigh rounds. ETA: no offense, but you seem to have fallen for a lot of gimmick marketing with those Lehigh rounds. There are plenty of resources here on this site if you are interested in learning. Not saying they can't stop a threat, but there are far better options. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 8:04:40 PM EDT
[#3]
I would absolutely not use frangible for self defense. I would only use hollow points. Further, I'd only use hollow points that have proven themselves in barrier and penetration tests. I want to have confidence that my bullets can effectively expand after going through thick clothing, drywall, car doors, car glass, or plywood. Frangibles are specifically designed to not go through barriers.
I personally carry 124 grain Federal HSTs or Speer Gold Dots, there are quite a few loads on the FBI approved list which have been tested and shown to work well. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 3:55:17 AM EDT
[#4]
You are being given good advice here. Frangible ammo is suitable ONLY for training. It is in no way suitable for duty or self defense use. Don't use ball, either. Get some 124 or 147-grain Gold Dot or HST, make sure it runs in your gun and call it good.
"It has great stopping power in home defense, but won't go through (typically) and injure others, etc. Law enforcement uses frangible ammo, for that reason, so I am told." Whoever told you that is 100% full of shit. Any chief who authorizes that crap for duty ammo should be fired for negligence. LE agencies want ammo that meets FBI standards for penetration through a number of barriers. That video of the Sinterfire 'hollowpoint' shows absolutely atrocious performance, and that's in bare, clear gel. No way in hell would I stake my life or my family's lives on it. Drill a hole in a frangible projectile and call it a 'duty round'? Holy shit. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 5:04:08 AM EDT
[#5]
Frangible ammo sucks.
Its not uncommon for it to snap/shatter while feeding due to the nature of bullets construction:  Also known to sometimes break apart in mid-flight:  Its better then nothing, but is the last choice for ammo. Good JHP > Cheap JHP > FMJ > Frangible |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 9:30:49 AM EDT
[#6]
Well, I've been set straight, quite nicely. I appreciate all of the feedback. I also appreciate that no one was rude to me. I am used to rifles for civilian-side experience. I used handguns and rifles in the military. But, ammo is much difference now than in the 1980s.
I will hunt that list of FBI-approved 9mm ammo. That should prove helpful, too. I hadn't thought of that as a resource. My input was from some local LE and EMT EDC friends. Once I have better data, I will challenge them with stats and facts. Before reading this, I did purchase a bunch of Winchester Defender Handgun 9mm Luger 147 grain Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point Brass Cased Centerfire Pistol Ammunition. Again, thank you for the advice. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:21:00 AM EDT
[#7]
Are you shooting plates at close range in your house?
If so, Frangible is great. For everything else? No. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:27:20 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My input was from some local LE and EMT EDC friends. Once I have better data, I will challenge them with stats and facts. No need to challenge them...just buy/carry quality JHP ammo and let them do their thing. Some people will argue that tossing lawn-darts straight up and standing under them when they fall is completely safe, because they've been doing it for years and have never been injured. You can't debate people like that...just smile and wave, and let them have their fun. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:31:09 AM EDT
[#9]
Besides absolutely sucking at penetration, frangible projectiles have issues with aging. The compressed metal/binders aren't necessarily great at dealing with moisture and temperature.
Lets say you buy a regular, brand name, well tested JHP. (CCI Gold Dots, Federal HST, Winchester Ranger T, etc). You could leave that in your basement for 30 years and every expectation that it will work fine. You could get them wet, and they'd still be fine, at least the ones with sealed primers. I've seen frangibles go bad in storage and start swelling/disintegrating. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 11:58:47 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some people will argue that tossing lawn-darts straight up and standing under them when they fall is completely safe, because they've been doing it for years and have never been injured. You can't debate people like that...just smile and wave, and let them have their fun. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 12:07:04 PM EDT
[#11]
One word - NO
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Posted: 2/10/2021 7:36:26 PM EDT
[#12]
In the early to mid 90's I was carrying the frangible Glaser ammo, but it was so expensive to use for training I quit carrying it. I was going to go back to it when my income got better & there were other more affordable brands available, but about that same time I read a couple of articles about why wasn't a good choice for most people as a SD round. They explained that while it was probably a good option for the Air Marshall's & a few other specific scenarios, most people would be better served with a good JHP round for SD. I've been using Hornady Critical Duty for almost 10 years now.
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Posted: 2/11/2021 2:11:11 PM EDT
[#13]
I would not carry any SD ammo under 124gr if given a choice. I am a fan of heavier weight in caliber is better, and I stick with 147gr for defense. I will run 158gr ball for practice just the same as 115gr.
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Posted: 2/11/2021 2:20:48 PM EDT
[#14]
I wouldn't use frangible ammo for the reasons already stated.
I would use Speer Gold dot HP or Federal HST hollow points. |
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Posted: 2/12/2021 10:45:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Police, Federal agencies and military units don’t change their ammo when they go into a residential structure because the requirements for bullet performance don’t change. Having seen numerous people shot in houses, I will tell you that using established duty/defense JHPs are still the most effective. If you wouldn’t use a certain round out in public, don’t use it in your house, and vise-versa.
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:00:09 AM EDT
[#16]
nope..nope..nope.
I've worked a couple of thousands of GSW in my career on trauma teams. this is a recipe for disaster. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:46:24 AM EDT
[#17]
I used to have to qualify with frangible at a certain range. I always had too many holes in the target because the bullets would break apart.
Not a fan. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 11:55:41 AM EDT
[#18]
A better question to ask yourself would be . . . .
Why am I using a pistol for home defense? |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 4:30:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Federal Air Marshals don’t use frangible on planes. They use barrier blind bonded JHP duty loads. Let that sink in.
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Posted: 2/16/2021 7:55:00 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A better question to ask yourself would be . . . . Why am I using a pistol for home defense? Because it's the best you have. If you can only afford one firearm then a pistol makes sense. If you're keeping a pistol as a backup to a long gun, that also makes sense. |
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Posted: 2/20/2021 3:12:09 AM EDT
[#21]
Another problem here is nomenclature.
Many people believe ballistic tips, OTMs, and the like in rifle rounds are frangible, when the word they are looking for is fragmenting. Because of that confusion, someone says "Police use frangible" and they mean fragmenting it confuses the un- or ill- informed. When it comes to handguns, a frangible or even fragmenting round is ALWAYS a bad choice. |
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Posted: 2/20/2021 5:23:33 AM EDT
[#22]
Another problem here is nomenclature. Yes, that is a problem. Even Jeff Cooper referred to handgun ammunition as being frangible, when he was talking about common hollow points. I haven't looked at the dictionary definition, but a rose by any other name when it comes to handgun use would be hollow point, preferably jacketed hollow point. |
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Posted: 2/21/2021 5:15:05 PM EDT
[#23]
You cannot tell the size of the target before the event.
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Posted: 2/22/2021 2:21:28 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A better question to ask yourself would be . . . . Why am I using a pistol for home defense? Because its always on me. |
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Posted: 2/22/2021 3:37:14 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you shooting plates at close range in your house? If so, Frangible is great. For everything else? No. |
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Posted: 2/22/2021 4:02:36 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A better question to ask yourself would be . . . . Why am I using a pistol for home defense? Because pistols are available and handy. Not everyone has an SBR and not every state allows ar pistols, and I would much rather have a pistol than a shotgun or 20" ar if I had to clear my house. Also pistols are cheaper and not nearly as concussive indoors. Also, in many states, like mine, guns have to be stored locked at all times when not on your person, and a rifle doesn't exactly fit in my bedside mini safe, and I personally would rather not have to make my way to the full size safe while someone is possibly breaking into my house |
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Posted: 2/22/2021 11:31:08 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also, in many states, like mine, guns have to be stored locked at all times when not on your person, Please cite |
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Posted: 2/22/2021 11:55:51 AM EDT
[#28]
FMJ with current weather, HP otherwise, frangible never.
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Posted: 2/23/2021 12:41:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FMJ with current weather, HP otherwise, frangible never. If we could have ammo commercials on TV that would be a good jingle. |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 1:31:55 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please cite Sorry 03RN, I actually live in Massachusetts, I just have a house in NH, so I have my location as NH as it is an all around better state  I honestly forgot my location was still NH |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 2:48:30 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry 03RN, I actually live in Massachusetts, I just have a house in NH, so I have my location as NH as it is an all around better state I honestly forgot my location was still NH Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Please cite Sorry 03RN, I actually live in Massachusetts, I just have a house in NH, so I have my location as NH as it is an all around better state I honestly forgot my location was still NH No worries man. I thought maybe it was a new law or something. |
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Posted: 2/26/2021 12:05:10 AM EDT
[#32]
From what I've heard from buddies on trauma teams frangible handgun ammo tends to act irrationally in tissue. Most often when hitting a body they lack the velocity to actually fragment, the body isn't as hard as a steel plate, and the frangible bullets either act like fmj and pass through leaving neat little holes or if they encounter bone they can actually tumble and break apart, but not in a way that produces damage, instead the bullet sort of just crumbles. Theres no violent fragmentation and "organ mastication" as some people say. Generally the wound path just ends and the entirety of the bullet remains within the wound path, just installer pieces, or together entirely. Ive been told that its particularly unimpressive and cane a pita to clean up for the doctors. They all recommend if you have to shoot someone do it with a rifle of shotgun, but if you have absolutely no choice and have to use a pistol use best quality JHP, 2 out if the 3 of them recommending heavy for caliber, ie 147gr, 180ghr, and 230gr. They allay HST, Ranger T, and all 3 say gold dot is king
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Posted: 3/17/2021 2:00:24 PM EDT
[#33]
I remember the famed Speer 'Flying Ash Tray.'
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Posted: 3/18/2021 3:00:24 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Before reading this, I did purchase a bunch of Winchester Defender Handgun 9mm Luger 147 grain Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point Brass Cased Centerfire Pistol Ammunition. The bullet is essentially the Winchester Ranger-B (Bonded) bullet in a different packaging. One we would normally put on the recommended list. |
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Posted: 3/29/2021 2:51:17 PM EDT
[#35]
“Smart people learn from their mistakes, but wise people learn from other peoples’ mistakes.
That is why you study history.” Brandon Mull You Cannot Reason People Out of Something They Were Not Reasoned Into. |
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Posted: 3/29/2021 2:53:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They explained that while it was probably a good option for the Air Marshall's & a few other specific scenarios, Even Air Marshals do not need it. They are going to make holes in the pressure vessel walls. It will not explode or make a hole large enough to suck anybody out. Just a low whistle. Ever seen how big an open "dump valve" is? |
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Posted: 3/29/2021 8:35:23 PM EDT
[#37]
Before reading this, I did purchase a bunch of Winchester Defender Handgun 9mm Luger 147 grain Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point Brass Cased Centerfire Pistol Ammunition.
That is the FBI duty load. It Is also used by federal air Marshalls, so that tells you something. If anyone would be concerned with over penetration, it'd be them |
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Posted: 3/29/2021 9:24:28 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Before reading this, I did purchase a bunch of Winchester Defender Handgun 9mm Luger 147 grain Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point Brass Cased Centerfire Pistol Ammunition. That is the FBI duty load. It Is also used by federal air Marshalls, so that tells you something. If anyone would be concerned with over penetration, it'd be them https://www.ammoland.com/2019/06/pistol-ammunition-for-personal-defense-fbi-ammo-update-video/#axzz6qYQRwaal https://press.hornady.com/release/2018/04/26/hornady-awarded-fbi-9mmp-service-ammunition-contract/ |
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Posted: 3/29/2021 11:39:37 PM EDT
[#39]
I tested some frangible 9mm in clear gel, and honestly it falls in that realm of FMJ like wounding potential from 9mm anyways. IMO JHP >>>>>
 9x19mm, 94gr Frangible, Pine Valley Munitions Part Deux |
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Posted: 3/30/2021 9:48:12 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryThe FBI selected more than one round back in 2018. The first round they chose was the Winchester PDX1/ranger bonded. They selected it in 147gr 9mm, 180ge 40sw, and 64gr 556, as well as the ranger SF for lead free training ammo. They also selected the 135gr +p Hornady critical duty as their +p offering. They also chose the Speer gold dot g2, but winchester received the largest contract |
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Posted: 3/31/2021 8:54:04 AM EDT
[#41]
W/o reading all the replies (which I'm certain already contain good advice), remember the reason for shooting an attacker is to stop the attack.
Any type of ammo (even blanks) can achieve a psychological stop where the BG chooses to end the attack (through fear of getting shot, feeling pain, seeing his own blood, etc). With a determined and aggressive BG the only way to force the attack to stop (physiological stop) short of a CNS hit is shutting down the brain due to oxygen deprivation through blood loss. Bullets that expand violently but don't penetrate deeply to reach major blood-baring organs/arteries will not induce as much blood loss as bullets that do penetrate deeply even if they don't expand as much. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary (including expansion). However, remember that all handguns (regardless of caliber or bullet used) are relatively poor 'stoppers' as even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to inflict serious/lethal damage. Tomac |
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Posted: 3/31/2021 9:14:42 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: However, remember that all handguns (regardless of caliber or bullet used) are relatively poor 'stoppers' as even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to inflict serious/lethal damage. Tomac Same wirh rifles. |
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Posted: 3/31/2021 11:43:08 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Same wirh rifles. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: However, remember that all handguns (regardless of caliber or bullet used) are relatively poor 'stoppers' as even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to inflict serious/lethal damage. Tomac Same wirh rifles. Yep. I believe it was Col. Cooper who stated nothing short of a supersonic telephone pole will stop a man 100% of the time. |
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