I am looking for some constructive criticism of my abilities so far as to the current grouping / accuracy with my G30 at "social" distances ?

Target is a 8.5x11 sheet of normal copy paper, set at 25' or so, basically the length of a family room. This particular loading is my preferred carry/SD load of non- +P 230gr HST's. Gun is a old school non-SF, Gen 3 G30 (the old fat ones - much like it's shooter :) ).


I am not opposed to either constructive criticism, or perhaps going to a softer but still effected load if there is one?

Thank you in advance -

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/wck6nT6qQzWTjLUeKY2w-g.2NgP5rF7WcU_ztcsn90qjD

Still minute of bad guy.  Some people struggle with Glocks.  And as good as Glocks are tack driving accuracy is not something they're known for.

Good enough for Gov work :) ???


Or would you advise I am better served by something I KNOW I can and DO shoot better ??? :(



Thanks -

Eric

Aim small, miss small.  Put a reference dot or sticky to sight in better on your paper.

I carried a G30 a long time and shot pretty well with it.  Big hands, big gun, works well.

In most cases the actual pistol can do much better than the shooter.....
Set yourself a goal (time, distance, group size) and train against the goal. In my case
-10 rounds / 5 seconds  
-Distance 15M
-Group size 10 CM (4 inches)

Overtime you will have less and less  flyers (see circled impacts)  outside the target zone.


That's shooting a VP9 with Compensator and Red-dot-sight

Yeah, I usually use I sticky dot or draw one on there as you describe, just forgot with this one is all.

I have VERY large hands (I run the G30 WITH a Hogue wrap around grip on it, and I also have a regular Glock 21 I can shoot with ease.

I'm just having a little harder time with the G30 after a prettty good amount of time and practice is all that I normally do not, or at least am not seeing as much with some other guns. I am more concerned if the G30 and I are just not a good match for each other at this point is all / whether or not it fits my hands as well as it could or other guns do it all. :(


Thanks -

Yeah, as I said in my prev post, I've got a fair amount of time and practice invested in the G30 at this point I am starting to wonder if we are just not a good fit for each either gun / hands wise.

I also have a big G21 I shoot quite well with way less issues, and also some other G30 size, 9mm guns I shoot better also. Again, I am starting too feel we just are not a good match after plenty of practice and ammo together, maybe we just do not match?

BTW, I also have the G20 in 10mm that while I can not shoot as fast, I have NO issues grouping / accuracy wise with either.


Thanks -

Absolutely possible... it definitively helps to go to a range with a huge rental inventory to try out what you like best.
Also adding optics makes a huge difference over time. Same thing with hands - largest grip panels work just fine - I hate shooting anything smaller.

Yeah, me too, but the G21 is too large to carry, and I am like you, I really don't want to carry anything smaller either caliber wise.

The .40 has to much recoil for my arthritis, also why am wondering if the G30 is just too much gun in this size caliber wise for me now, vs a medium sized 9mm or something else other than throwing stones and harsh language at this point?

Thanks -

Glock 45 acp barrels are cut different

They are lazers.

If you think about 40cal, consider Ruger SR40c or even a (Police trade-in)  P229.  Instead of something that was designed for 9mm and adapted for 40 cal like Glock 23 or Walther P99.....   The Ruger is very easy to shoot for a Sub-compact in this caliber , and the P229 as well.

I used to live in So. FL awhile back.  But after coming across Black panther (in Boca Raton) face to face where I used to live, I ended up going with the Ruger which is more compact than the Glock 30 (still have gen 3 and 4).  

You can even go with Glock29 (10mm) if you think 45acp is too much, since you can also shoot 40cal out of it.  I do it regularly and it is pleasantly surprise how easy the recoil of 40cal out of this big frame.

The 9mm +p or +p+ is pretty much the same level as 40cal, the sectional may not be the same.  Although with 9mm pistol you get softer practice round and then you can occasionally go with hotter loads to save wear and tear on your body/ pistol.

I used to be all .40 and had to give up due to the "snap" and the onset of some early arthritis. :( Trust me, I was a G23 man for years (hence my user name :)).

Anywho, I had a P229 (in .40) I loved, just weighed too damn much. :(

I would LOVE to carry a G29, but I don't want to do the .40 thing in the G29, and I do NOT want to go the aftermarket barrel route in a carry / SD gun either. Sorry, call me paranoid, but I just do NOT want to go that route with non-Glock parts in a defensive use Glock. :(

I'm not stuck in the love with the .45, but I do prefer my bullets larger and heavier if possible. I have objection to going 9mm and even picking up a few rounds in a gun the same size (med), but again I'd just rather it be a .45 if possible. :(

Thanks -

I wouldn't call it terrible.  Depends on how fast you were shooting as well.  Definitely good enough to accomplish the mission in a real world scenario.  Of course real world scenarios introduce a lot of variables that you can't really prepare for completely.  Keep practicing with it and go from there.  The G30 is a bit fat and heavy for a modern carry gun I guess but it has great capacity for its size and the .45 acp doesn't depend on it's speed x bullet design x barrel length x blah blah blah to be effective.  It just works.  I love my 9mm guns but the simplicity of a .45 acp is hard to beat in short barrels especially.  You do sacrifice capacity and recoil but I'm not bothered by the recoil and a G30 holds plenty of pills.

I find the G21 and G30 (a G30SF in this case) group extremely well for me but I started shooting the G21 close to when it first came out in the early 90's.

You know, you can get shoot 40 cal in your Glock 29/20/40 - WITHOUT barrel change.  Use  this as a (cheap) practice.  Then for your SD just get 10mm ammo.  But most of the factory loads are closer to  40cal anyway so you are practicing closer to what you are used to,  unless you go with Underwood or DD.

This is what I am doing currently anyway, just thought it might make sense to you.  It does for me though.

Not slow, well aimed bench shots, but not rapid fire as fast as I hang on panicked shots either.


Ok, so time to let the cat out of the bag - I did not want to mention the "other gun" yet, as I find that usually starts to many side distraction discussions of this vs that, and gets too far away from the initial discussion / topic - the once I am comparing it to how well I DO shoot it is my Glock 19.

I can shoot my G19 pretty much as fast as I want (within reason of course), and put ALL of the rounds in a chest size hole rapidly. Slow it down, and it gets even better. Here, same conditions, same distance, but with my G19 instead -

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/nVE_kk0aSsuT3fLvPMsWbw.pqcTstSsTYJdo_y171oiUi



Now I hope you can see my delimia, in what I AM getting out of my G19, and what I WANT (or pretty damn close to it at the same pace) from my G30 -

(the G30 again) -

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/R0mazOU8QSCDLRmDxEgzrQ.dExAJWFliUEgzbg9A8-UcT

And just for comparison, here is my Glock 20 at a fairly rapid pace, with some weak 10mm stuff -

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/i5sAUywLTPaKNcRq7kp1Tg.pNXILbnZ-KhTmJn2lqinmD



So as you can see, the G19 is NO problem for me. Again I have NO problem with the 9mm instead of the .45, I even like the fact of picking up a few extra rounds still staying in a gun this size, but I'd still honestly rather have those big fat, .45 pills instead. :(

Yes, and I understand what you are saying, but I am just not comfortable doing so.

Plus I am already having enough trouble (arthritis pain wise) with the .40 in a similar sized gun, the G23. Why I gave up the 23 in the first place. :(


I honestly really like the idea of trying the G29 with some low powered 10mm just to try it, but I am not willing to cowboy up and buy even a used one just to try it. Lord knows trying to find one as a rental is not going to happen either. :(

Thanks -

25 feet is too far for self defense and trying to pin point your point of impact. At that distance, hitting body parts is good, the more holes the more bleeding, and the best chance of hitting vital organs.

My G30 is the most accurate handgun I have, love shooting it.

I'd vote that you carry whatever gun you shoot the best- and based on your posts that is a 9mm.

If you're not satisfied with your shooting at 25 feet in a controlled environment, imagine what it will look like on the worst day of your life when you need to use your firearm to defend your life or someone you love? Carry what you shoot the best and keep practicing.  

Yeah, I am leaning harder and harder back towards the G19.

It just makes more sense. I started off with a G19 sized gun in the G23 for years, and things just got better when early arthritis set in and I switched to the G19.

I definitely get better, consistent hits where I want them with the 19, and your added comment of shooting under stress pretty much seals the deal there for me.


Oh well, was just hoping to find a better answer before I relegate the old G30 to the back of the safe. I happen to have two sons and one of them already has shown he shoots the 30 very well. Looks like he's got a pending 18th birthday present coming early. :)

Thanks!

Eric

I have a silly number of Glocks in Gen 2 to Gen 4.

All of my Glock 30 pistols are easily the most accurate Glocks I own - like the worst 30 is better than all the others.  Only thing close for me is the Glock 41 (in 45ACP).  If I had to take a 25 yard shot at something small with a Glock, it would be a 30.

If I had to put 5 shots on target fast, 9mm is faster.  Plain physics for normal shooters with stock pistols.

Glock somehow found a magic potion for accuracy on a compact frame with the 30.  I bet you would tighten your groups if you practiced a bit with different grips or slowed down a little.  Also, I get better accuracy with heavier bullets with my Glock 19s with 124gr seeming to be the sweet spot.  Any difference in the ammo quality between your 9mm and 45?

No, same stuff, either UMC, Blazer Brass, Lawman, or other fodder for ball stuff. HPs are all HSTs in both. G30 target pictured is 230 gr non-+P HSTs.


9mm is just easier for me at this point, don't have to think about it, don't have to work at it, G19 simply fits my hand better as the G19/23 frame always has.

Set up a 3x5 index card at say 7 feet. Shoot at the card, trying to keep all rounds inside the card. To make life easy, stick one of these in the center of the index card for an aiming point.

Repeat shooting at the card until you go from just keeping all the rounds on the card, to keeping all the rounds in one big hole/all shots touching. This will take some time, and some ammo. Like weeks, and hundreds of rounds, depending on how often you can practice and etc.

Once you reach that point, punt the target back 2-3 feet, and repeat.

Basically the point is, start close and then slowly work the target back, keeping the same practice. It will take some time and a fair bit of ammo, but eventually you'll be able to move the target back to 30+ feet and keep it all in a golf ball.

That'll also translate into being able to make fast hits quickly at closer range.

The best way to get to this level quickly, really quickly, is a LOT of dry fire practice. I'm talking 15-30 minutes a day, at least every other day. Draw, aim, fire, repeat...over and over and over. Dry fire practice is the fastest and cheapest way to "Get good fast"....but only perfect practice will do the job. If you practice shitty practices/bad draws/half-assed aiming, it will translate into bad draws and half assed aiming at the range, with shit results. Take your time with dry fire practice...it'll really help at the range.

Edited to add - this means gripping the pistol with a strong, correct grip, each time. Finger all the way on the trigger, each time. When the trigger breaks, the sights should not wiggle (one of my great struggles with a Glock ). If the sights do wiggle, clamp down on the gun tighter...you want a good, solid. tight grip. Still wiggling at the break? Try rotating your elbows out a little bit; this will use plain old leverage and human physiology to force your arms/hands to clamp onto the gun/exert more pressure, without any real muscle energy expenditure.

Thank you Ed, I will try that :)


Eric

Your G30 group isn't that much different from your G19 group at that distance.  I think you're doing pretty well for a fast grouping at that distance.  The G30 is going to recoil more and if you aren't letting it settle long enough before shooting your next shot it's going to open your group some.  

I think you're putting too much scrutiny to it.  You're good and 25 feet is at the long side of personal defense yardage so don't worry too much.  

Thank you, I appreciate that. Part of the reason I started this thread was  I was kind of feeling the same thing to a certain degree (that I was being too hard on myself), that and I'd look at other people's shooting and they were lucky they were even on the paper, much less the target on it. :(

Also, I currently pocket carry a G26 for the most part (I live in So. Fla and work from home, so life is pretty much cargo shorts all ready round). When I started to look into moving up gun wise it was it (the G26 @ 10 rounds) and the G30 (also obviously) @ 10 rounds. Capacity didn't really matter that much, so in my opinion going to a bigger, heavier bullet that did not get smaller no matter what you did (which I pefeer anyway) made a lot of sense with the G30.

When I started looking at the G19, not only did you have a larger gun than the G26 that had more grip to hang on to, it was also easier to shoot, recoiled less than the 30, and held MORE ammo. NOW going to the 19 started making more and more sense. Factor in it fits my hand better, I can easily shoot it well without even have to work at it or think about it, and it was pretty much a done deal.

I am not going to get rid of my 30 for various reasons (I actually have two of them), but I think I am going to put it in the back of the safe for a while an move the 19 to my carry gun. It just seems to make more sense all the way around, and as I and others keep saying, at the end of the day lead on target is ALL that will matter when my nerves go to hell and the sh*t hits the fan in a God forbid SD situation. :(

Thanks -

Eric

Since you asked;

If you were shooting for the center of the paper, your grip may be a little tweaking.



Like others have said don’t get too bogged down in chasing minute-of-angle accuracy. Having a 100% reliable weapon and the ability to access, draw it and fire when needed top the list.

That being said, accuracy is important at the range because it isn’t going to improve with the addition of panic and confusion during an actual attack. Something supposedly a Navy SEAL once said, iirc; “People don’t rise to the occasion, they fall back to their highest level of competence”.  

Reverse the chart for left-handed shooters.

ETA- 25’ is about 8 yards. You really should challenge yourself to shooting a tighter group at that distance. Remember, accuracy builds confidence, confidence builds efficiency. Efficiency gives the illusion of speed.

With regards to “lighter loads”. Recoil is something you learn to manage, not avoid. The energy of recoil really isn’t all that punishing. It is the suddenness that I think really affects people. Learn to follow-through with the shot. Ride the recoil, don’t fight it. When you are able to do that, you will find the sights return to exactly where you started. When my Daughter was a 85# 14yo, she could handle the stoutest 3” Turkey Loads without flinching. It just takes a proper hold, follow-through and practice. (and a gun that fit her).

Sadly that chart is really only effective for single-handed bullseye-type shooting..the biggest single thing you can do with a Glock to make it hit where you want is sink all of your trigger finger into it. Not even kidding; if you're constantly pushing left (if you're a right handed shooter), the best way to cure it on a Glock is to shove your trigger finger as far as it can go through the trigger guard. Shoot it like a revolver. Grip the shit out of it and sink your finger into it as far as you can, and squeeze.

Dry fire a lot, use a good solid grip (push/pull method) use plenty of finger on the trigger, get that trigger stop/reset point down pat and instinctively go that spot always,while shooting dont' come off that reset point until you're done shooting.  Then dry fire some more, a lot more.  You don't want that front sight to budge when the trigger breaks.  Also shoot with both eyes open.

Thanks guys -

I like what Pat said in the video, "My friend told me get your finger in there so far you can touch the mag release" :) LOL


Thanks -

Eric

This.

For the most part guns for 'social use' do not have to be one hole shooters.

There is some advantage to shooting a hammer (2 quick shots) and having them a few inches apart.

We are not the police, so if the 'target' is farther away safe retreat should always be considered.
The police have to operate withing their department rules and regulations.

And in Virginia there is no statute law for lethal force.  For ANYONE.
It is ALL case law.

And the police operate under the same law, plus their department rules & regulation.

We are not bound by those rules, though understanding their general purpose can be useful.

Virginia has no "stand your ground" statute law.

You do not have to retreat in Virginia from any place you are legally present, and may meet
lethal force with lethal force under a "reasonable man" standard.

Fists are generally not considered lethal force in Virginia.
So not shooting someone just because they took a swing at you, absent other conditions.
Like larger, younger, etc.

Aggravated Assault occurs when almost ANY object is used as a striking weapon.

We have been at this for over 400 years, so for the most part there is a LOT of case law.

"The Virginia Gun Owner's Guide" should be required reading if you are considering
using a firearm for self defense.

"Excusable" and "Justifiable" homicide are the two broad categories under Virginia case law.

First off OP... you’re shooting fine and practice will always make improvements.

I’d recommend setting goals using a shot timer if you want to measure your gains.

I shoot several different courses for standards but the one I use the most is the Defoor Hat Qual.

It measures a lot of skills all at once. Speed, accuracy, recoil control all have to be on point to earn a passing score.

I won’t carry a gun I cannot pass with. Anyone can look good with a pistol at 10-15 yards.

I buy B8s in 100 packs but in a pinch a sharpie and a tape roll will serve  I do it often enough to know if I’m in there.

25 yards  10 rounds  20 seconds  90 or above score on a B8

I did some ammo testing for my agency with my most common off duty/ BUG recently G48

Attached File


When you get into guns with a dot you may wanna shave a few seconds off to make it more of a challenge

Attached File

Vote for the 19 if that’s what your shoot the best. Carry an extra magazine. My 30 with a magazine felt heavy even with a good belt vs the 19.  I also shot my 26 fairly well.