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Posted: 8/12/2022 2:18:44 AM EDT
I’m talking about the Lehigh Xtreme, Black Hills Honey Badger, and other similar style solid copper non-expanding “fluid transfer monolithic” screwdriver bullets:
 Honestly these things always sounded too good to be true. A non-expanding bullet that does as much damage in tissue as a decent JHP? Sounds like the ideal bullet for defensive use year-round. Plus, the described wounding mechanism seems logical and like it ought to work the way it’s described. I’ve seen all the backyard ballistics tests on YouTube, read all the subjective reports from hunters that say they really do what they claim. I want to believe, but these just don’t have a proven track record of stopping attackers like a HST or Gold Dot JHP. So what’s the real answer? Are these kinds of bullets truly the future of defensive projectiles, or just a flashy gimmick for selling glorified FMJ rounds at multiple times the cost? Most interested in 9mm here but if anyone has any experience with other calibers too feel free to share |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 6:08:05 PM EDT
[#1]
In my option, it's just expensive ball. People keep looking at the temporary starch cavity in gel test, even though it has been well established that the temporary cavity in gel is not what happens in living tissue.
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Posted: 8/12/2022 6:25:45 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my option, it's just expensive ball. People keep looking at the temporary starch cavity in gel test, even though it has been well established that the temporary cavity in gel is not what happens in living tissue. This is one of my main concerns as well. I’ve seen subjective reports from hunters saying it works well in living tissue as well but the reports are fairly rare and of course anecdotal evidence is anecdotal |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 6:48:26 PM EDT
[#3]
How many police departments have adopted them as duty ammo? Zero. When the Speer Gold Dot came out and the Ranger SXT came out they became sensations with police pretty quickly. When you hear about PD's giving the go-ahead then you know. No need to be in front of the curve. There's plenty of good options already. Remember, pistol bullets just ain't got much stump to begin with so it's bordering on being an academic question anyway.
I'm not saying cops are edge riders always taking the next great thing. I'm saying quite the opposite. They want ammo that works as well as pistol ammo can possibly work. |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 7:17:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Waiting on the street cred.
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Posted: 8/12/2022 9:03:21 PM EDT
[#5]
I guess I’ll continue to wait and see then
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Posted: 8/14/2022 11:44:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my option, it's just expensive ball. People keep looking at the temporary starch cavity in gel test, even though it has been well established that the temporary cavity in gel is not what happens in living tissue. My understanding, at least with the XD series, is that its designed to use the 'stretch' of the temporary cavity to create permanent cavity. The 'screwdriver' profile with its sharp metal + shape cuts a 4 way, 9mm pattern with a cut on each side of the +. Then the inner slope of the projectile forces energy outwards into the + cut, causing the cuts to tear beyond the diameter of the projectile. If the + starts out at say 7mm across, and the force of the outward energy tears each side of the + an additional 3mm (1/8") on each side, then you end up with a + 13mm/.511" wide hole. A 4mm tear would result in a 15mm/.59", etc. This seems entirely possible to me. Yank on a piece of steak or chicken, it wont tear easily. But make a small slice in it, and it will tear wider when you yank it pretty easily. I think a similar thing at work with the XD could happen. That said, I still cary JHP, but mostly due to to cost and training compatibility. |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 12:25:33 AM EDT
[#7]
I won't hesitate to use some of them on dangerous game. They do typically penetrate deep and straight.
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Posted: 8/15/2022 12:41:14 AM EDT
[#8]
It's what I carry in my .380 when I carry 380. 9MM and up Gold Dot or HST
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Posted: 8/15/2022 1:05:04 AM EDT
[#9]
I shot a 60-70 LB hog at 20+yards with one out of a S&W shield.
Took him down right there. Tried to get up got another one. Near as I can tell they perform exactly as the engineering promotes it does. The hydraulic pressure creates cuts through the flesh at least 1.5x the diameter of the projectile for at least 10 inches. I have found that there is a Fail to load or completely go into battery on occasion. Caused by the sharp edges and blunt tip. Although the more rounds I fire the fewer instances there seems to be and that was on a race gun…a recoil spring tweak should fix it. I use them in my woods carry gun to see how they perform but Terminal ballistics are a bitch. No guarantee’s. So far looks fine plus a great barrier round if needed. |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 1:25:09 AM EDT
[#10]
What I would like to see is bullets of these types used in ultra fast twists.
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Posted: 8/15/2022 2:36:33 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What I would like to see is bullets of these types used in ultra fast twists. What’s the reasoning there? |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 2:38:07 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My understanding, at least with the XD series, is that its designed to use the 'stretch' of the temporary cavity to create permanent cavity. The 'screwdriver' profile with its sharp metal + shape cuts a 4 way, 9mm pattern with a cut on each side of the +. Then the inner slope of the projectile forces energy outwards into the + cut, causing the cuts to tear beyond the diameter of the projectile. If the + starts out at say 7mm across, and the force of the outward energy tears each side of the + an additional 3mm (1/8") on each side, then you end up with a + 13mm/.511" wide hole. A 4mm tear would result in a 15mm/.59", etc. This seems entirely possible to me. Yank on a piece of steak or chicken, it wont tear easily. But make a small slice in it, and it will tear wider when you yank it pretty easily. I think a similar thing at work with the XD could happen. That said, I still cary JHP, but mostly due to to cost and training compatibility. This is what I mean when I say the marketing/description of the wounding mechanism sounds plausible. It seems like it ought to work the way it’s described, but we know marketing is not exactly the most honest of professions |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 2:38:46 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I won't hesitate to use some of them on dangerous game. They do typically penetrate deep and straight. Do they create a larger permanent wound channel than standard FMJ/hardcast though? |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 2:40:25 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shot a 60-70 LB hog at 20+yards with one out of a S&W shield. Took him down right there. Tried to get up got another one. Near as I can tell they perform exactly as the engineering promotes it does. The hydraulic pressure creates cuts through the flesh at least 1.5x the diameter of the projectile for at least 10 inches. I have found that there is a Fail to load or completely go into battery on occasion. Caused by the sharp edges and blunt tip. Although the more rounds I fire the fewer instances there seems to be and that was on a race gun…a recoil spring tweak should fix it. I use them in my woods carry gun to see how they perform but Terminal ballistics are a bitch. No guarantee’s. So far looks fine plus a great barrier round if needed. These are the kinds of anecdotal hunting reports I see online. Not saying I don’t believe you, just that it’s not the objective proof gathered from documented defensive use like you can find with traditional JHPs |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 9:00:56 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do they create a larger permanent wound channel than standard FMJ/hardcast though? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I won't hesitate to use some of them on dangerous game. They do typically penetrate deep and straight. Do they create a larger permanent wound channel than standard FMJ/hardcast though? No but they may feed better in some autos. |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 9:39:17 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What’s the reasoning there? Higher RPM with higher rotational energy should increase the wound channel size based on how these bullets are described to work. |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 10:30:18 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my option, it's just expensive ball. People keep looking at the temporary starch cavity in gel test, even though it has been well established that the temporary cavity in gel is not what happens in living tissue. This is what I believe to be true. A lack of consistent penetration and no actual damage from the temporary wound channel. The only damage a handgun round does is what is directly in the path of the bullet and gets damaged from contact with the actual projectile. |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 2:27:09 PM EDT
[#18]
The screwdriver tips do a lot more damage than ball in gel tests. It's not just a larger temporary wound cavity.
That said, I'm not sure ballistics gel is designed to answer this question. These bullet designs weren't around when e.g. the FBI standard was established. But back on the first hand, I recall reading an academic paper about these projectiles, and the authors came away impressed with their terminal ballistics in - IIRC - fleshy targets. But I can't seem to track down the paper right now, so take it with a grain of salt. |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 4:46:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Are any of the big names, i.e. Federal, Winchester, Speer, etc., using this technology?
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Posted: 8/15/2022 5:26:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: I’m talking about the Lehigh Xtreme, Black Hills Honey Badger, and other similar style solid copper non-expanding “fluid transfer monolithic” screwdriver bullets: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lehigh-XP.jpg Honestly these things always sounded too good to be true. A non-expanding bullet that does as much damage in tissue as a decent JHP? Sounds like the ideal bullet for defensive use year-round. Plus, the described wounding mechanism seems logical and like it ought to work the way it’s described. I’ve seen all the backyard ballistics tests on YouTube, read all the subjective reports from hunters that say they really do what they claim. I want to believe, but these just don’t have a proven track record of stopping attackers like a HST or Gold Dot JHP. So what’s the real answer? Are these kinds of bullets truly the future of defensive projectiles, or just a flashy gimmick for selling glorified FMJ rounds at multiple times the cost? Most interested in 9mm here but if anyone has any experience with other calibers too feel free to share I've heard the opposite of what you describe, looks like it'll take years to get reliable info on them. People I know that tried them, hi use users, have all gone back to large meplat WFN type bullets. They say it's a step down from a Kieth type, which is already a step down from a WFN. This is people with lot's of animals down from Kieth's and WFN. I guess we'll have to continue waiting and seeing. |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 5:29:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I won't hesitate to use some of them on dangerous game. They do typically penetrate deep and straight. There's a considerable amount of "dangerous game" that calls for an expanding bullet over a solid. The weekly "what round for Kodiak bears" be damned. |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 5:33:07 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is what I believe to be true. A lack of consistent penetration and no actual damage from the temporary wound channel. The only damage a handgun round does is what is directly in the path of the bullet and gets damaged from contact with the actual projectile. I would like to see a comparison test in organic tissue using the same bullets with one fired at standard handgun velocity and the other fired over 2,200 fps, and compare the results. I bet the flutes do quite a bit of damage at higher velocity |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 5:35:27 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are any of the big names, i.e. Federal, Winchester, Speer, etc., using this technology? Black Hills developed the Honey Badger loads in partnership with Lehigh:  http://www.black-hills.com/product-category/honeybadger/ |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 5:35:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would like to see a comparison test in organic tissue using the same bullets with one fired at standard handgun velocity and the other fired over 2,200 fps, and compare the results. I bet the flutes do quite a bit of damage at higher velocity |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 8:07:57 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What handgun rounds are going 2200 fps? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I would like to see a comparison test in organic tissue using the same bullets with one fired at standard handgun velocity and the other fired over 2,200 fps, and compare the results. I bet the flutes do quite a bit of damage at higher velocity This gets close: https://underwoodammo.com/460-s-w-magnum-250-grain-xtreme-penetrator/ But that’s not the point. With JHP bullets you usually have an upper range for velocity before you start to see the bullet over-expanding or disintegrating and penetrating less than the same bullet moving slower. Which is illustrated beautifully in this review of 45 Super:  45 Super vs 10mm - I didn't expect THIS! The same effect obviously won’t occur with non-expanding projectiles - extra velocity just means extra penetration. What I’m curious about is whether or not the flutes on the Xtreme bullets start to cause more damage at the higher velocity threshold where hydrostatic shock starts to factor in, which is generally agreed to be at about 2,200 fps |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 8:21:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What I'm curious about is whether or not the flutes on the Xtreme bullets start to cause more damage at the higher velocity threshold where hydrostatic shock starts to factor in, which is generally agreed to be at about 2,200 fps |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 9:28:32 PM EDT
[#27]
There are 2 ways to increase surface area on something: fold it out, like HPs do; fold it in—this design.
There’s more surface area on these bullets due to the 4 grooves, so, more contact with gel makes the temporary cavity (TC) look impressive in gel, but i’ve never seen any controlled study that shows TC matters. Fackler, et al., have repeatedly demonstrated that bleeding out & CNS hits are the only ways to incapacitate a combatant. Ball works fine, so these fluted rounds will work as well as ball, with proper bullet placement. Given the increased surface area due to the grooves, they might work better than ball, since (theoretically) greater surface area means more tissue damage, so more blood loss, pain, etc. However, I suspect the smaller surface area of these rounds relative to a quality expanding HP might not work as well, again, due greater surface area of the latter. I’m always looking for a “magic bullet” and collect “gadget bullets” like these, BAT, THV, MagSafe, etc. but I think these will go the way of other “gadget bullets.” Think about it this way—all over the world, cars, airplanes, etc all share common tech due to the laws of physics. Industrial espionage is quite real. If so “gadget bullet” could really do everything, you would see the major bullet manufacturers all over the world using/copying/stealing the design or tweaking it to get around patents—but that’s not happening. |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 9:29:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's going to be hard to answer that question since few handgun rounds reach that kind of velocity. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What I'm curious about is whether or not the flutes on the Xtreme bullets start to cause more damage at the higher velocity threshold where hydrostatic shock starts to factor in, which is generally agreed to be at about 2,200 fps Idle curiosity? |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 9:31:26 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are 2 ways to increase surface area on something: fold it out, like HPs do; fold it in—this design. There’s more surface area on these bullets due to the 4 grooves, so, more contact with gel makes the temporary cavity (TC) look impressive in gel, but i’ve never seen any controlled study that shows TC matters. Fackler, et al., have repeatedly demonstrated that bleeding out & CNS hits are the only ways to incapacitate a combatant. Ball works fine, so these fluted rounds will work as well as ball, with proper bullet placement. Given the increased surface area due to the grooves, they might work better than ball, since (theoretically) greater surface area means more tissue damage, so more blood loss, pain, etc. However, I suspect the smaller surface area of these rounds relative to a quality expanding HP might not work as well, again, due greater surface area of the latter. I’m always looking for a “magic bullet” and collect “gadget bullets” like these, BAT, THV, MagSafe, etc. but I think these will go the way of other “gadget bullets.” Think about it this way—all over the world, cars, airplanes, etc all share common tech due to the laws of physics. Industrial espionage is quite real. If so “gadget bullet” could really do everything, you would see the major bullet manufacturers all over the world using/copying/stealing the design or tweaking it to get around patents—but that’s not happening. Very well thought out and good points |
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Posted: 8/15/2022 11:59:19 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are any of the big names, i.e. Federal, Winchester, Speer, etc., using this technology? Black Hills is the largest in the US. Norma is also loading their own NXD concept. Both are 'medium' players but highly reputable. .... I don't think the Big Names, which currently own the market for the top JHP designs, have any incentive to market a new projectile as 'better then JHP...' - especially if companies like Lehigh have already patented the better designs. |
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Posted: 8/16/2022 12:02:15 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What handgun rounds are going 2200 fps? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I would like to see a comparison test in organic tissue using the same bullets with one fired at standard handgun velocity and the other fired over 2,200 fps, and compare the results. I bet the flutes do quite a bit of damage at higher velocity Underwoods .357 SIG 65gr Lehigh XD does 2200fps+ from a G35 with a .357 sig barrel. |
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Posted: 8/16/2022 12:03:43 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These are the kinds of anecdotal hunting reports I see online. Not saying I don’t believe you, just that it’s not the objective proof gathered from documented defensive use like you can find with traditional JHPs Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I shot a 60-70 LB hog at 20+yards with one out of a S&W shield. Took him down right there. Tried to get up got another one. Near as I can tell they perform exactly as the engineering promotes it does. The hydraulic pressure creates cuts through the flesh at least 1.5x the diameter of the projectile for at least 10 inches. I have found that there is a Fail to load or completely go into battery on occasion. Caused by the sharp edges and blunt tip. Although the more rounds I fire the fewer instances there seems to be and that was on a race gun…a recoil spring tweak should fix it. I use them in my woods carry gun to see how they perform but Terminal ballistics are a bitch. No guarantee’s. So far looks fine plus a great barrier round if needed. These are the kinds of anecdotal hunting reports I see online. Not saying I don’t believe you, just that it’s not the objective proof gathered from documented defensive use like you can find with traditional JHPs Its a Catch-22. Theres no data because no one is carrying/using them because theres no data. I'd say like the early days of bullet development, hunting is the best we can hope for for now. |
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Posted: 8/16/2022 2:12:01 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its a Catch-22. Theres no data because no one is carrying/using them because theres no data. I'd say like the early days of bullet development, hunting is the best we can hope for for now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I shot a 60-70 LB hog at 20+yards with one out of a S&W shield. Took him down right there. Tried to get up got another one. Near as I can tell they perform exactly as the engineering promotes it does. The hydraulic pressure creates cuts through the flesh at least 1.5x the diameter of the projectile for at least 10 inches. I have found that there is a Fail to load or completely go into battery on occasion. Caused by the sharp edges and blunt tip. Although the more rounds I fire the fewer instances there seems to be and that was on a race gun…a recoil spring tweak should fix it. I use them in my woods carry gun to see how they perform but Terminal ballistics are a bitch. No guarantee’s. So far looks fine plus a great barrier round if needed. These are the kinds of anecdotal hunting reports I see online. Not saying I don’t believe you, just that it’s not the objective proof gathered from documented defensive use like you can find with traditional JHPs Its a Catch-22. Theres no data because no one is carrying/using them because theres no data. I'd say like the early days of bullet development, hunting is the best we can hope for for now. I have considered that angle as well. Nothing new gains traction in an environment where nobody will adopt something new until it’s gained some traction |
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Posted: 8/16/2022 2:50:58 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have considered that angle as well. Nothing new gains traction in an environment where nobody will adopt something new until it’s gained some traction Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I shot a 60-70 LB hog at 20+yards with one out of a S&W shield. Took him down right there. Tried to get up got another one. Near as I can tell they perform exactly as the engineering promotes it does. The hydraulic pressure creates cuts through the flesh at least 1.5x the diameter of the projectile for at least 10 inches. I have found that there is a Fail to load or completely go into battery on occasion. Caused by the sharp edges and blunt tip. Although the more rounds I fire the fewer instances there seems to be and that was on a race gun…a recoil spring tweak should fix it. I use them in my woods carry gun to see how they perform but Terminal ballistics are a bitch. No guarantee’s. So far looks fine plus a great barrier round if needed. These are the kinds of anecdotal hunting reports I see online. Not saying I don’t believe you, just that it’s not the objective proof gathered from documented defensive use like you can find with traditional JHPs Its a Catch-22. Theres no data because no one is carrying/using them because theres no data. I'd say like the early days of bullet development, hunting is the best we can hope for for now. I have considered that angle as well. Nothing new gains traction in an environment where nobody will adopt something new until it’s gained some traction Honestly I think the hunting / hog elimination tests are good data - as good or better then gel. Has there ever been a case of a round working great on hogs/deer etc and not working on humans? Hunting, especially if a post-hunt dissection is performed, can give real 'flesh and bone' data. Along similar vein, I recall a Gunblast article years ago where the author compared .357 Mag to .357 Sig - based on his and coworkers experiences defending themselves against aggressive pitbulls. The Magnum was found to have a more pronounced DRT/'Lightning Bolt Effect' against the dogs compared to the SIG - similar to what would be later observed in gel. I recall another article, perhaps by Massad Ayoob? Where they were testing .380 loads, and a round that had performed adequately in gel failed spectacularly in testing at the local slaughterhouse, being stopped nearly cold after encountering bone. (Both articles were read years ago, so memory of specifics is not infallible.) If we see these XD projectiles performing well / exceptionally well in hunting, I'd be inclined to believe they would work well for SD. The big issue I see is not lack of effectiveness, but lack of sustainability -XD ammo is super expensive, usually over $1 per round -65gr @ 1700-1900fps FMJ training ammo does not exist, complicating practice due to different recoil impulse and point of impact |
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Posted: 8/16/2022 4:56:53 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These are the kinds of anecdotal hunting reports I see online. Not saying I don’t believe you, just that it’s not the objective proof gathered from documented defensive use like you can find with traditional JHPs Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I shot a 60-70 LB hog at 20+yards with one out of a S&W shield. Took him down right there. Tried to get up got another one. Near as I can tell they perform exactly as the engineering promotes it does. The hydraulic pressure creates cuts through the flesh at least 1.5x the diameter of the projectile for at least 10 inches. I have found that there is a Fail to load or completely go into battery on occasion. Caused by the sharp edges and blunt tip. Although the more rounds I fire the fewer instances there seems to be and that was on a race gun…a recoil spring tweak should fix it. I use them in my woods carry gun to see how they perform but Terminal ballistics are a bitch. No guarantee’s. So far looks fine plus a great barrier round if needed. These are the kinds of anecdotal hunting reports I see online. Not saying I don’t believe you, just that it’s not the objective proof gathered from documented defensive use like you can find with traditional JHPs  Attached FileIt’s as objective as you can get ! Real world result. Makes near the same hole in hog flesh as you see in gel. Will it do that every single time ? Fuck no. Neither will any other projectile. Terminal ballistics on anything but gel are a bitch ! |
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Posted: 8/16/2022 4:05:24 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This gets close: https://underwoodammo.com/460-s-w-magnum-250-grain-xtreme-penetrator/ But that’s not the point. With JHP bullets you usually have an upper range for velocity before you start to see the bullet over-expanding or disintegrating and penetrating less than the same bullet moving slower. Which is illustrated beautifully in this review of 45 Super:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4olMSeVZXMThe same effect obviously won’t occur with non-expanding projectiles - extra velocity just means extra penetration. What I’m curious about is whether or not the flutes on the Xtreme bullets start to cause more damage at the higher velocity threshold where hydrostatic shock starts to factor in, which is generally agreed to be at about 2,200 fps Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would like to see a comparison test in organic tissue using the same bullets with one fired at standard handgun velocity and the other fired over 2,200 fps, and compare the results. I bet the flutes do quite a bit of damage at higher velocity This gets close: https://underwoodammo.com/460-s-w-magnum-250-grain-xtreme-penetrator/ But that’s not the point. With JHP bullets you usually have an upper range for velocity before you start to see the bullet over-expanding or disintegrating and penetrating less than the same bullet moving slower. Which is illustrated beautifully in this review of 45 Super: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4olMSeVZXMThe same effect obviously won’t occur with non-expanding projectiles - extra velocity just means extra penetration. What I’m curious about is whether or not the flutes on the Xtreme bullets start to cause more damage at the higher velocity threshold where hydrostatic shock starts to factor in, which is generally agreed to be at about 2,200 fps It doesn't illustrate it beautifully. That bullet sucks. It's bullet dependent. My tests of the 9mm 147gr hst in a .357 proves to me that a good bullet can perform better at faster speeds. Not at 2200fps but at 1275. Fwiw. |
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Posted: 8/16/2022 5:13:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It doesn't illustrate it beautifully. That bullet sucks. It's bullet dependent. My tests of the 9mm 147gr hst in a .357 proves to me that a good bullet can perform better at faster speeds. Not at 2200fps but at 1275. Fwiw. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would like to see a comparison test in organic tissue using the same bullets with one fired at standard handgun velocity and the other fired over 2,200 fps, and compare the results. I bet the flutes do quite a bit of damage at higher velocity This gets close: https://underwoodammo.com/460-s-w-magnum-250-grain-xtreme-penetrator/ But that’s not the point. With JHP bullets you usually have an upper range for velocity before you start to see the bullet over-expanding or disintegrating and penetrating less than the same bullet moving slower. Which is illustrated beautifully in this review of 45 Super: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4olMSeVZXMThe same effect obviously won’t occur with non-expanding projectiles - extra velocity just means extra penetration. What I’m curious about is whether or not the flutes on the Xtreme bullets start to cause more damage at the higher velocity threshold where hydrostatic shock starts to factor in, which is generally agreed to be at about 2,200 fps It doesn't illustrate it beautifully. That bullet sucks. It's bullet dependent. My tests of the 9mm 147gr hst in a .357 proves to me that a good bullet can perform better at faster speeds. Not at 2200fps but at 1275. Fwiw. It illustrates that certain bullets have an upper limit on velocity for best performance and when you push them above that threshold you start having problems, as depicted in the video. Yes, that load is using the wrong bullet to be moving that fast. That was my point |
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Posted: 9/9/2022 9:38:01 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's what I carry in my .380 when I carry 380. 9MM and up Gold Dot or HST This for me too. Maybe it's better than ball in 380, maybe. |
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Posted: 9/10/2022 1:39:23 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my option, it's just expensive ball. People keep looking at the temporary starch cavity in gel test, even though it has been well established that the temporary cavity in gel is not what happens in living tissue. |
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Posted: 9/10/2022 1:42:40 PM EDT
[#40]
Even if they perform as claimed, they do not shoot as well or to the same point of impact as traditional ammo in my guns.
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Posted: 9/10/2022 1:45:09 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Black Hills is the largest in the US. Norma is also loading their own NXD concept. Both are 'medium' players but highly reputable. .... I don't think the Big Names, which currently own the market for the top JHP designs, have any incentive to market a new projectile as 'better then JHP...' - especially if companies like Lehigh have already patented the better designs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are any of the big names, i.e. Federal, Winchester, Speer, etc., using this technology? Black Hills is the largest in the US. Norma is also loading their own NXD concept. Both are 'medium' players but highly reputable. .... I don't think the Big Names, which currently own the market for the top JHP designs, have any incentive to market a new projectile as 'better then JHP...' - especially if companies like Lehigh have already patented the better designs. I think bans on lead hunting ammo in some places is the only reason they’ve had any staying power at all. |
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