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Posted: 1/2/2023 12:57:44 AM EDT
[#1]
Handloads
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Posted: 1/2/2023 1:20:49 AM EDT
[#2]
Lucky Gunner website for gelatin tests.
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Posted: 1/2/2023 1:52:04 AM EDT
[#3]
The Speer is the best of those. I like Barnes bullets the best. Even ball ammo is effective and proven in combat.
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Posted: 1/2/2023 2:31:49 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 1/2/2023 2:40:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Just like pretty much everything else:
HST and GDHP A number of articles cite that plain 230gr non+P is better for the GDHP and HST because excessive velocity causes premature expansion and actually reduces penetration. |
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Posted: 1/2/2023 3:01:29 AM EDT
[#6]
"good performers" at what? Accuracy (target shooting), defensive or plinking?
Target shooting, a good lead SWC handload or factory Defensive, Federal HST (IMHO) Plinking, what's the cheapest? |
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Posted: 1/2/2023 3:35:21 AM EDT
[#7]
SD: Winchester Ranger-T followed by Fed HST.
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Posted: 1/2/2023 12:21:02 PM EDT
[#8]
HST, Ranger-T, Gold Dot...
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Posted: 1/2/2023 3:14:13 PM EDT
[#9]
HST assuming it’s reliable in your gun
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Posted: 1/2/2023 4:25:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lucky Gunner website for gelatin tests. Clear gel is not appropriate for deciding on defensive ammo. |
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Posted: 1/2/2023 4:26:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Gold dots, HST, critical duty, rangers all perform really well.
The XTPs do really well as well |
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Posted: 1/2/2023 4:28:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SD: Winchester Ranger-T followed by Fed HST. Came to say this also. I consider the Win. Ranger 230 to be the best. iirc the standard pressure Ranger 230 is clocking same or faster velocity than the HST 230 +P. Also prefer the 180gr Ranger in 40SW. I dont like Win. Ranger in 9mm though (HST much better). But that is in a full 5" barrel. If shooting a shorter barrel or a lighter gun, I'd probably go a different rout, probably a 185JHP. |
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Posted: 1/2/2023 5:01:11 PM EDT
[#13]
For SD:
230 grain HST 230 grain Win Ranger-T 230 grain Win Ranger-B 230 grain Gold Dot I have heard that Speer finally fixed the issues with the G2 though. |
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Posted: 1/2/2023 5:06:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Clear gel is not appropriate for deciding on defensive ammo. Water jugs, phone books, cinderblock, and plywood then? Meth-heads are too skinny, and non-responsive to pain. |
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Posted: 1/2/2023 5:12:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Water jugs, phone books, cinderblock, and plywood then? Meth-heads are too skinny, and non-responsive to pain. I think he meant that the clear jell is has some issues compared to the organic ballistic jell. Clear jell is still better than all that crap we/I used back in the good old days. |
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Posted: 1/2/2023 5:53:22 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Water jugs, phone books, cinderblock, and plywood then? Meth-heads are too skinny, and non-responsive to pain. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Clear gel is not appropriate for deciding on defensive ammo. Water jugs, phone books, cinderblock, and plywood then? Meth-heads are too skinny, and non-responsive to pain. Water can be used to better effect than clear gel. There is a reliable formula that correlates to organic gel/tissue. If meth heads are your concern then you should be more interested in physiological stops. In which case actually using data that reflects real life is more important than pretty looking tests done by a company in business to sell ammo. I work in drug recovery and 80% of meth heads I deal with are over 200lbs. I know because I weigh them. |
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Posted: 1/2/2023 5:53:53 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think he meant that the clear jell is has some issues compared to the organic ballistic jell. Clear jell is still better than all that crap we/I used back in the good old days. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Water jugs, phone books, cinderblock, and plywood then? Meth-heads are too skinny, and non-responsive to pain. I think he meant that the clear jell is has some issues compared to the organic ballistic jell. Clear jell is still better than all that crap we/I used back in the good old days. Actually, water is better than clear gel |
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Posted: 1/2/2023 6:20:20 PM EDT
[#18]
HST
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Posted: 1/2/2023 6:45:38 PM EDT
[#19]
Hornady says Zmax is designed for head shots on the undead.
For head shots, some of the other 45 ACP ammo is almost as good. The FBI Hostage Rescue Team used to use a special 230 grain Remington Golden Saber load, but now uses a 230 grain Winchester load. |
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Posted: 1/3/2023 4:26:04 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually, water is better than clear gel Everything expands in water. If a HP fails in water then forget it. But if a bullet expands in water and stays together, doesnt frag etc, then it good imho. Probably the best thing about water is that it's the same everywhere so anyone can repeat a test done by someone on yuotube. And you wont have to worry about someone using "old" water with 87 old wound tracks or screwing up some formula, temperature, etc. But it's very hard to measure depth of penetration. |
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Posted: 1/3/2023 8:21:44 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everything expands in water. If a HP fails in water then forget it. But if a bullet expands in water and stays together, doesnt frag etc, then it good imho. Probably the best thing about water is that it's the same everywhere so anyone can repeat a test done by someone on yuotube. And you wont have to worry about someone using "old" water with 87 old wound tracks or screwing up some formula, temperature, etc. But it's very hard to measure depth of penetration. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Actually, water is better than clear gel Everything expands in water. If a HP fails in water then forget it. But if a bullet expands in water and stays together, doesnt frag etc, then it good imho. Probably the best thing about water is that it's the same everywhere so anyone can repeat a test done by someone on yuotube. And you wont have to worry about someone using "old" water with 87 old wound tracks or screwing up some formula, temperature, etc. But it's very hard to measure depth of penetration. If you use gallon bags in a box you can get a rough idea. Then divide by 1.55 and it's a repeatable formula to compare to organic gel. This test was really just don't to see if the 9mm HST survives .357 mag velocity. Trying to measure depth, like you said isn't exact.  147gr HST from a .357 magnum |
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Posted: 1/3/2023 9:10:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Pick one. 70% chance your attacker gives up after one round. Incapacitated or not the odds are they are giving up after the first round but there are rules.
Shoot until the threat stops or changes shape because real world terminal ballistics are a bitch. |
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Posted: 1/4/2023 8:10:14 PM EDT
[#23]
Speer 200gr flying ashtray.
https://general-cartridge.com/2017/04/01/speer-flying-ashtray-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 6:48:32 PM EDT
[#24]
I have a strong preference for Federal, Winchester and Speer products
in 230 JHP standard pressure. I'm going to try some Hornady loadings too. I really like that XTP bullet and they were really accurate in my handloads. |
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Posted: 1/9/2023 7:48:51 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The FBI Hostage Rescue Team used to use a special 230 grain Remington Golden Saber load, but now uses a 230 grain Winchester load. How was the Remington load different from the standard Golden Saber? I’ve used the standard Golden Saber load in a variety of .45s and found them to be accurate and fed reliably. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 10:27:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: HST, Ranger-T, Gold Dot... This. Golden Sabers are g2g as another option. |
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Posted: 1/14/2023 2:30:36 PM EDT
[#27]
I'm an HST guy.
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Posted: 1/14/2023 2:42:42 PM EDT
[#28]
I've measured 230gr standard pressure HSTs that expanded to 0.96" from a 5" 1911. I also handload the 185gr XTP in the 1050-1,100fps range. 1,050fps is about the sweet spot IMO. Any of them will take care of business, the XTP just doesn't expand as much in favor of penetration.
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Posted: 1/14/2023 5:18:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Speer 200gr flying ashtray. https://general-cartridge.com/2017/04/01/speer-flying-ashtray-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ Yes, it has the best reputation as it was the first HP that would reliably expand; but I checked the Speer website and it's listed as "not available". |
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Posted: 1/14/2023 10:43:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, it has the best reputation as it was the first HP that would reliably expand; but I checked the Speer website and it's listed as "not available". Sometimes you just have to know where to look. |
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Posted: 4/30/2023 6:55:04 AM EDT
[#31]
What's all this love for HST? They open up too quick and don't penetrate enough.
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Posted: 4/30/2023 8:37:37 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's all this love for HST? They open up too quick and don't penetrate enough. I kind of hate to ask this, but where are you getting your information on the HST from? |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 12:05:38 PM EDT
[#33]
I roll my own, 230 grain XTP over Longshot at 900 fps .
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Posted: 5/26/2023 12:18:09 PM EDT
[#34]
I am issued the G2
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Posted: 5/27/2023 4:47:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I kind of hate to ask this, but where are you getting your information on the HST from? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What's all this love for HST? They open up too quick and don't penetrate enough. I kind of hate to ask this, but where are you getting your information on the HST from? One of the other forums. I forget which one. |
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Posted: 5/27/2023 4:49:09 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am issued the G2 @BillyDBerger IIRC, G2 is less likely to under penetrate than most others. |
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Posted: 5/27/2023 4:54:47 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @BillyDBerger IIRC, G2 is less likely to under penetrate than most others. Thx. Didn’t know that. |
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Posted: 5/27/2023 4:56:50 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 5/27/2023 5:00:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @BillyDBerger IIRC, G2 is less likely to under penetrate than most others. |
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Posted: 5/28/2023 8:20:41 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One of the other forums. I forget which one. So, then. If it's on the internet (or this site), it must be true............ Because as we all know you can't lie on the internet (or this site)............ |
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Posted: 5/28/2023 8:48:37 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Handloads This right here! ^^^ I roll my own 45 ACP and have for nearly 20 years. It is an easy caliber to reload. I like to use Gold Dot 230gr bullets in them. My range loads are usually loaded with FMJ 230gr bullets. Any of the ones you listed should get the job done. But I do use the Gold Dots when they are available. |
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Posted: 5/28/2023 8:54:06 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I roll my own, 230 grain XTP over Longshot at 900 fps . That'll get the job done well! |
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Posted: 5/28/2023 9:27:47 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please share your source for data showing that other brands under penetrate. @Bradd_D I am not the one who made the claim. Ask that person. |
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Posted: 5/28/2023 10:21:45 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Bradd_D I am not the one who made the claim. Ask that person. |
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Posted: 5/28/2023 10:56:23 AM EDT
[#45]
If you want something less mainstream, there are the solid copper rounds from Lehigh Defense and Underwood (who I think use Lehigh projectiles). They look like Philips head screwdriver tips.
Never heard of one being used in an SD situation, though, they seem to perform well in testing from what I've read. |
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Posted: 6/3/2023 11:22:05 AM EDT
[#46]
If you look at the data from the FBI, the Winchester Ranger T is the best performing .45 acp. It's not like its a huge difference, but it is the best performing overall.
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Posted: 6/3/2023 12:25:42 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you look at the data from the FBI, the Winchester Ranger T is the best performing .45 acp. It's not like its a huge difference, but it is the best performing overall. Link to that data? |
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Posted: 6/3/2023 4:13:15 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you look at the data from the FBI, the Winchester Ranger T is the best performing .45 acp. It's not like its a huge difference, but it is the best performing overall. Does the data come from gel or real shootings? @bigezone1 |
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Posted: 6/3/2023 4:15:45 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Clear gel is not appropriate for deciding on defensive ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lucky Gunner website for gelatin tests. Clear gel is not appropriate for deciding on defensive ammo. Not even for comparison purposes with other ammo? @03RN |
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Posted: 6/3/2023 4:29:04 PM EDT
[#50]
delete
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