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Posted: 8/27/2019 9:55:56 AM EDT
[#1]
I'm using a similar load from Black Hills in .380. Their Honey Badger load uses the 60gr Lehigh Extreme Defense bullet. I carry them in a Ruger LCP.
The gel tests are impressive and swayed me towards them over other loads. FWIW, I use Hornady Critical Duty 135gr standard pressure in my G43 and Hornady Critical Defense 110gr Critical Defense in my LCR. |
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Posted: 8/27/2019 1:30:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm using a similar load from Black Hills in .380. Their Honey Badger load uses the 60gr Lehigh Extreme Defense bullet. I carry them in a Ruger LCP. The gel tests are impressive and swayed me towards them over other loads. FWIW, I use Hornady Critical Duty 135gr standard pressure in my G43 and Hornady Critical Defense 110gr Critical Defense in my LCR. In 9mm The Extreme defender did well and penetrated to 17-17 1/2" |
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Posted: 8/27/2019 7:37:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
I've been studying self defense ammo for months now, and I'm convinced that, if this stuff will function well in my pistols, it's the way to go. The price sucks, but, if my life is on the line, it's worth it. |
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Posted: 8/28/2019 8:36:45 AM EDT
[#4]
If a round does not reliably expand you might as well go with something that does the most damage. The .380 has that problem, the 9mm not so much. I'll load the Underwoods in the LCP, and regular hollow points (all copper) in my Glock 48.
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Posted: 9/1/2019 3:12:57 AM EDT
[#5]
If you want 380 and you want penetration, shoot Underwood 100gr hardcast.
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Posted: 9/1/2019 6:34:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Any street cred yet?
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Posted: 9/4/2019 10:12:37 PM EDT
[#7]
In 9mm, why not something from DocGKR’s list?
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Posted: 9/5/2019 8:39:05 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In 9mm, why not something from DocGKR’s list? Tomac |
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Posted: 9/14/2019 6:49:17 PM EDT
[#9]
Given equal penetration, I’m not convinced they wound any better than a flat nosed FMJ. I’m open to being convinced otherwise though.
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Posted: 9/14/2019 7:15:11 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Given equal penetration, I’m not convinced they wound any better than a flat nosed FMJ. I’m open to being convinced otherwise though. Tomac |
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Posted: 9/21/2019 6:56:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Ill stick with XTP in .380 and HST2 in 9mm until something is demonstratively better.
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Posted: 9/23/2019 4:34:44 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
I've been studying self defense ammo for months now, and I'm convinced that, if this stuff will function well in my pistols, it's the way to go. The price sucks, but, if my life is on the line, it's worth it. |
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Posted: 1/9/2020 9:01:20 PM EDT
[#13]
I like the "Barrier Blind" charachteristics and the TREMENDOUS hydraulic effect they have. Military Arms did a great vid on YT about these. I don't think a gel block is a true testament to their performance...but I also am not an ammo tester. The 'Gold Standard' tester, tnoutdoors9, seemed to be pretty pleased with these. I have switched to these for my EDC round, as I live in a populated "Military Town", and with the current climate with Iran and such, I feel I MAY need to shoot through a hard barrier in a possible terrorist scenario. Hopefully by my resurrecting this thread it will garner some more info and opinion's. Lehigh has redesigned this bullet and it is Cold-Forged rather than CNC-machined. It looks a bit different.
ETA: I ran the new design rounds in my P225 today and it was a FAIL, but it ran the original style just fine. I will try them in the other guns I know function with the original CNC style bullets as well. We shall see. I did find the OAL of the new round is .030" less, which is in spec according to the Lee manual for a "Jacketed" 90gr. bullet. Both loaded round did weigh the same. |
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Posted: 1/11/2020 6:14:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Nobody...??
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Posted: 1/11/2020 6:24:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Any street cred yet?
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Posted: 1/11/2020 6:52:20 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nobody...?? |
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Posted: 1/12/2020 11:27:50 AM EDT
[#17]
I'm using the 90 grain Lehigh load in my LCP.
They seem to be the best balance of penetration. Most HP .380s fall short, while the FMJ ammo goes really deep. The Lehigh seems to get a consistent 16". In .380 I see that as great. I doubt the permanent wound channel is larger than .38", but if proof came out that showed otherwise that would be cool. I use traditional HP loads in 9mm (HST). |
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Posted: 1/12/2020 11:33:20 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Given equal penetration, I’m not convinced they wound any better than a flat nosed FMJ. I’m open to being convinced otherwise though. I love Lehigh rifle rounds, especially in 300blk, but these fluted rounds i'm still not sure of. |
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Posted: 1/12/2020 12:11:22 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Given equal penetration, I’m not convinced they wound any better than a flat nosed FMJ. I’m open to being convinced otherwise though. The 90 grain .380 load does 16-17" of penetration. Standard .380 90 grain fmj does into the high 20s. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 12:04:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Bought a few boxes of +P... I need to shoot some of them to see how they run in my G43 before edc.
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Posted: 1/14/2020 1:00:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That the thing, I don't believe these Lehigh rounds achieve the same penetration as FMJ rounds of the same weight. That means they must have higher drag/more damage? The 90 grain .380 load does 16-17" of penetration. Standard .380 90 grain fmj does into the high 20s. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 2:17:11 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They lose penetration because of the extra resistance as the flutes push the tissue/fluids around. The problem with this approach is, while it may look impressive in tests, pistol cartridges don't have the velocity for that temporary stretch to be a reliable wound mechanism. I wouldn't carry these if they were given to me, they're just more flashy but mediocre novelty rounds. I carry them not because I think they do more damage, but because they keep penetration to a reasonable level when compared to just standard FMJ rounds. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 3:34:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They lose penetration because of the extra resistance as the flutes push the tissue/fluids around. The problem with this approach is, while it may look impressive in tests, pistol cartridges don't have the velocity for that temporary stretch to be a reliable wound mechanism. I wouldn't carry these if they were given to me, they're just more flashy but mediocre novelty rounds. Quote HistoryQuoted: They lose penetration because of the extra resistance as the flutes push the tissue/fluids around. The problem with this approach is, while it may look impressive in tests, pistol cartridges don't have the velocity for that temporary stretch to be a reliable wound mechanism. I wouldn't carry these if they were given to me, they're just more flashy but mediocre novelty rounds. Quoted: I understand that.
I carry them not because I think they do more damage, but because they keep penetration to a reasonable level when compared to just standard FMJ rounds. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 3:48:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Deliberately trying to LIMIT penetration in a .380 seems a little…counterproductive. 20" may sound like a lot in gel, but the cartridge is known for underpenetrating and the general consensus is it's best to focus on maximizing penetration because expanding rounds don't penetrate enough. I don't think the solution is to carry a round that fails at both expansion and penetration.
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Posted: 1/14/2020 3:56:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The claim is the rotational velocity is sufficient to cause a permanent cavity, but the jury is still out on that. Why would you not want to make a through hole? |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 3:58:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would I? As long as the bullet penetrates deep enough to hit the vitals I'm after, I don't care if it exits. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:00:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Deliberately trying to LIMIT penetration in a .380 seems a little…counterproductive. 20" may sound like a lot in gel, but the cartridge is known for underpenetrating and the general consensus is it's best to focus on maximizing penetration because expanding rounds don't penetrate enough. I don't think the solution is to carry a round that fails at both expansion and penetration. What round are you using that penetrates to 16" AND expands in a .380? I selected this round for penetration as that is MORE important than expansion. It's the compromise you make when carrying something like a Ruger LCP vs a Glock 19. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:01:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because an exit wound doubles the rate of blood loss for anything less than a perfect shot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Why would I? As long as the bullet penetrates deep enough to hit the vitals I'm after, I don't care if it exits. Blood loss can also be internal and not actually leave the body. Actually, that the most common thing in GSW. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:05:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm confused by what you're saying. If the bullet (in this case the Lehigh) penetrates to 16-17", it's NOT suffering from lack of penetration. What round are you using that penetrates to 16" AND expands in a .380? I selected this round for penetration as that is MORE important than expansion. It's the compromise you make when carrying something like a Ruger LCP vs a Glock 19. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Deliberately trying to LIMIT penetration in a .380 seems a little…counterproductive. 20" may sound like a lot in gel, but the cartridge is known for underpenetrating and the general consensus is it's best to focus on maximizing penetration because expanding rounds don't penetrate enough. I don't think the solution is to carry a round that fails at both expansion and penetration. What round are you using that penetrates to 16" AND expands in a .380? I selected this round for penetration as that is MORE important than expansion. It's the compromise you make when carrying something like a Ruger LCP vs a Glock 19. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:10:01 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. Blood loss can also be internal and not actually leave the body. Actually, that the most common thing in GSW. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:10:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You said previously that you chose these rounds because you were afraid of OVERpenetration in the .380 with FMJ ammo; you should not be concerned about that, you should be trying to get the most penetration you can. .380 and smaller calibers are FMJ/hard-cast only for any defensive use, there are no rounds (that I know of) that reliably expand and penetrate like in larger calibers; you have to choose one or the other, and only one is a reliable way to stop an attacker. Half-assing the only reliable wounding mechanism at your disposal in the hopes of maybe boosting the unreliable one, is a poor choice. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:13:04 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, it can. However, you're choosing to limit the maximum wounding potential in an already-limited cartridge. Crushing more tissue and making more holes increases blood loss. If your ammo can reliably exit the torso, you also have double the chances of creating an open pneumothorax situation in your target. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: No. Blood loss can also be internal and not actually leave the body. Actually, that the most common thing in GSW. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:13:53 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not literally afraid of over penetration, only acknowledging that at some point too much penetration doesn't gain you anything. If you want to run a hardcast load that gets 36" of penetration then do it. Personally, I think that's a waste. There's a reason that 12-18" of penetration is the gold standard. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:17:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Blood loss is not a reliable mechanism to STOP someone. It could take someone minutes to bleed out and in that time they could kill me. What you need to do it hit the vitals (heart, CNS, etc.) and to reliably do that I need 12-18" of penetration. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:19:34 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are many reasons, but none of them are "more is worse". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I'm not literally afraid of over penetration, only acknowledging that at some point too much penetration doesn't gain you anything. If you want to run a hardcast load that gets 36" of penetration then do it. Personally, I think that's a waste. There's a reason that 12-18" of penetration is the gold standard. What round do you carry in whatever service caliber gun you use? I'd bet hardcast in service calibers can get upwards of 60" of penetration. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:21:52 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The .380 is not a reliable round for stopping someone. I thought I made it clear that I was talking about maximizing the wounding capability of less-than-ideal shots. You're rationalizing choosing weak ammo, in an already-weak caliber, under the assumption that you're going to score perfect hits when you need to and therefore you don't need to use ammo that skews the odds a little more in your favor. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:32:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think you're missing what I'm trying to say. If my shots are not perfect and don't hit the real vitals, then it doesn't matter what bullet I'm using. The gunfight will be over in seconds, and either them or I will bleed out minuets later. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:39:06 PM EDT
[#38]
Yep. I carry that load now.
Being partially barrier blind with repeatable and consistent soft tissue penetration makes a bit more sense. No apparent changes in temporary or permanent wound cavity compared to traditional HP ammo. It may not be perfect for every single senerio but it is as middle of the road as you could ask for. Going to shoot a few hogs and see just how well it performs. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:42:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And you're missing what I'm trying to say; it's not that you just want to have all the penetration in the universe, it's that giving it up in this caliber doesn't gain you anything. In larger calibers you can trade excess penetration for excellent expansion, and it's a good trade to make. Here you're just paying money to remove that excess, which works in your favor, and you're gaining nothing for it. An imperfect hit isn't just "you missed", you might have a perfect shot at an attacker's heart but his arms get in the way and now your "good enough" penetration...isn't. It's not a great position to be in with any cartridge, but since you're not gaining performance in other areas here, you have nothing to lose by taking the extra penetration to maximize your odds. Choosing this ammo for the reasoning you've stated is a deliberate choice to hamper your own capabilities and pay extra money for the privilege. The 12-18" penetration standard accounts for "things" getting in the way of vitals. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:51:45 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not giving up penetration by using the Lehigh 90 grain load. It consistently penetrates 16-17" in gel tests. You make it seem like I selected a round that gets 8". The 12-18" penetration standard accounts for "things" getting in the way of vitals. 1. Increasing penetration increases your chances of winning a fight. 2. Increasing expansion increases your chances of winning a fight. 3. In .380, nothing expands reliably without having inadequate penetration. 4. In .380, LeHigh has 16" penetration and FMJ has 20"+ penetration, while neither expands. THEREFORE: Choosing LeHigh over FMJ to "keep penetration reasonable" is choosing a net decrease in your chances of winning a fight. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:54:07 PM EDT
[#41]
I ordered 200 rounds of extreme penetrator in .357 Sig for lobby day. Should be here tomorrow. Got a junk car over at a friends farm to do some engine block tests as well as car door tests. Looking forward to the results
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:57:19 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll try to bottom-line my point here: 1. Increasing penetration increases your chances of winning a fight. 2. Increasing expansion increases your chances of winning a fight. 3. In .380, nothing expands reliably without having inadequate penetration. 4. In .380, LeHigh has 16" penetration and FMJ has 20"+ penetration, while neither expands. THEREFORE: Choosing LeHigh over FMJ to "keep penetration reasonable" is choosing a net decrease in your chances of winning a fight. 16" is plenty of penetration and a load that goes +20" gains me nothing. The likelyhood that 16" of penetration was insufficient, but 20" would have made the difference is so small as to not even matter- otherwise we'd be having the same discussion for ALL service calibers. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 4:59:44 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only point we differ on is #4. 16" is plenty of penetration and a load that goes +20" gains me nothing. The likelyhood that 16" of penetration was insufficient, but 20" would have made the difference is so small as to not even matter- otherwise we'd be having the same discussion for ALL service calibers. 
You're framing it backwards: going from 20+ down to 16" gains you nothing either, but it's costing you more money. Even if the chances of the extra penetration being the difference are remote, a remote advantage for less money is the better choice every time. There is no rational argument to be made for choosing to pay more money for a bullet you readily accept has less performance. In a fight, one should take every advantage, and cheat at every opportunity. Play to win, not to be "good enough, usually". |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 5:08:19 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll try to bottom-line my point here: 1. Increasing penetration increases your chances of winning a fight. 2. Increasing expansion increases your chances of winning a fight. 3. In .380, nothing expands reliably without having inadequate penetration. 4. In .380, LeHigh has 16" penetration and FMJ has 20"+ penetration, while neither expands. THEREFORE: Choosing LeHigh over FMJ to "keep penetration reasonable" is choosing a net decrease in your chances of winning a fight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I'm not giving up penetration by using the Lehigh 90 grain load. It consistently penetrates 16-17" in gel tests. You make it seem like I selected a round that gets 8". The 12-18" penetration standard accounts for "things" getting in the way of vitals. 1. Increasing penetration increases your chances of winning a fight. 2. Increasing expansion increases your chances of winning a fight. 3. In .380, nothing expands reliably without having inadequate penetration. 4. In .380, LeHigh has 16" penetration and FMJ has 20"+ penetration, while neither expands. THEREFORE: Choosing LeHigh over FMJ to "keep penetration reasonable" is choosing a net decrease in your chances of winning a fight. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 5:08:28 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But why pay novelty-ammo pricing to take away a small potential advantage?
In a fight, one should take every advantage, and cheat at every opportunity. Play to win, not to be "good enough, usually". |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 5:09:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends, if it's shown that the Lehigh bullet damages tissue above it's diameter, I'm at an advantage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: But why pay novelty-ammo pricing to take away a small potential advantage?
In a fight, one should take every advantage, and cheat at every opportunity. Play to win, not to be "good enough, usually". |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 5:12:55 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 16" in organic or synthetic gel? Ive only ever seen them in synthetic. 16" is more like 12" in real life. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 5:36:55 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Links to lehigh in organic gel? Edit: I googled VYSE Professional Grade Ballistics gel and it is collagen based.  Ammo Quest .380 ACP: Lehigh XP Xtreme Penetrator test in ballistic gel |
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Posted: 1/15/2020 1:18:55 AM EDT
[#49]
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