9mm NATO - Page 1

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Posted: 5/20/2023 11:11:56 PM EDT

Recently watched a YOUTUBE video with Hackathorn and Wilson. They mentioned that 9mm NATO is loaded above SAAMI specs, and is intended for submachine guns and loaded for all weather conditions. As such, it should not be used on a regular basis on your everyday 9mm handgun. I recently bought a case of 9mm NATO, now I am cautious about using it. My Beretta M9 should handle it OK, I would think? What do you folks think?

Posted: 5/20/2023 11:17:06 PM EDT

[#1]

I’ve shot a ton of Winchester 124gr NATO stamped 9mm through several guns, including my Beretta 92. I guess I don’t really understand what SMG a mass produced US military cartridge would be for? It was, at one time $8.00/box delivered from AIM (I bought a lot of it) and have never had an issue in a modern pistol, sounds like gun show tales.

Edited to add that it may be loaded hot but I don’t believe it’s loaded specifically for an SMG

Posted: 5/20/2023 11:21:45 PM EDT

[#2]

While yes it is hotter than standard saami box ammo, it is the same basic load that has been used in military hanguns for literal generations going back 100 years.

Would I shoot tons of it in a cheap poly gun? Probably not. Any gun that has seen military use, ie the design? Sig.. Glock.. Beretta.. HiPower.. CZ.. yes. its fine.

Posted: 5/20/2023 11:39:02 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Recently watched a YOUTUBE video with Hackathorn and Wilson. They mentioned that 9mm NATO is loaded above SAAMI specs, and is intended for submachine guns and loaded for all weather conditions. As such, it should not be used on a regular basis on your everyday 9mm handgun. I recently bought a case of 9mm NATO, now I am cautious about using it. My Beretta M9 should handle it OK, I would think? What do you folks think?

View Quote

Sounds a bit too much like 5.56 > .223.

While you may run into some 9mm ammo that runs a little bit hotter than other 9mm loads, I’d pretty much guarantee it is not exceeding SAAMI specs and is more a case of being loaded closer to that top end rather than the middle but still well within specs.

Just like I say when it comes to the whole 5.56 versus .223 controversy, where are all the k@booms that caused all the ammo makers’ lawyers to counsel them to emblazon every 5.56 box of ammo with a “DO NOT SHOOT IN A .223 CHAMBERED FIREARM” so as to avoid civil liability for all the blown up guns and missing limbs/eyes?

You get suffocation warnings on disposable plastic packaging bags, no-cell-phone-use signs at gas pumps, but nada on a box of 5.56?

Posted: 5/21/2023 12:05:02 AM EDT

[#4]

In a good quality modern gun you’ll be fine. Would I shoot it an antique German Luger probably not

Posted: 5/21/2023 12:57:23 AM EDT

[#5]

All depends on who actually is selling the "9mm NATO". Winchester M1152 is definitely a very WARM loading. SAR USA 9mm NATO, more mild.

Posted: 5/21/2023 1:19:31 AM EDT

[#6]

Winchester 9mm NATO 124 white box is what every Glock, Sig, and HK I own shoots and is wicked good ammo. I'd like to get more of the 1152 115 grain variant, I've heard great things about it's accuracy too. I don't think it'll be a problem either for modern 9x19 guns.

Posted: 5/21/2023 8:20:42 AM EDT

[#7]

Ah, but the real question is: Is 9mm NATO hotter than +P? Or +P+ for that matter? Somehow I doubt it. The original HiPower was never rated for +P yet people run it in them all the time.

Posted: 5/21/2023 8:32:43 AM EDT

[#8]

Well since 9mm was originally a German round, I'd probably go off their load data than SAAMI loads- how do those 2 compare?

Do companies design off original loads, or not? Your lil Beretta was chosen by NATO, so can probably handle NATO loads, don't you think?

Or... just don't worry about it. You've been on the site since 2008- how many 9mm pistols have blown up?

Posted: 5/21/2023 9:32:40 AM EDT

[#9]

"9mm NATO is for SMGs" or "hot SMG ammo" is just BS.

First of all, SMGs don't require, nor do they particularly benefit from hotter ammunition.

Second of all, if there was handgun and SMG specific 9mm in use, you would see warnings and markings on the boxes and packaging to distinguish between the two types. Trust a cop or soldier to get the two mixed up without a glaringly obvious way to keep them separate...

The one past incidence of a particular lot of actually "hot" 9x19mm (British L7A1 made by Hirtenberg) that was specifically loaded for a specific SMG for a specific application that was accidentally imported as surplus seems to have fueled this perpetual misconception.

Posted: 5/21/2023 9:54:18 AM EDT

[#10]

I bought a lot of the Winchester 124g Nato when it was $180/case shipped with no tax.
Sounds like there were even better deals on it.
The only thing that is a detriment is the brass is crimped so I have to ream the primer pockets to reload. Not a huge deal.

Posted: 5/21/2023 10:33:44 AM EDT

[#11]

The 9mm SAAMI spec pressure is 35K PSI.

The 9mm NATO spec pressure is 36.5K PSI.

The 9mm +P SAAMI spec max pressure is 38.5K PSI.

Any modern gun that can shoot 9mm +P can shooting 9mm Nato.

Posted: 5/21/2023 11:17:40 AM EDT

[#12]

SAAMI is a voluntary sporting industry standard.

A NATO Standardization Agreement states specs for military ammunition compatibility, not the arm.

NATO ammo STANAGs are closer to Euro CIP specs than SAAMI. Think SAAMI +10%.

Not a big deal if you think "+P = NATO-CIP."

Posted: 5/21/2023 11:22:59 AM EDT

[#13]

Supposedly the Sig M17/M18 use a different recoil spring than commercial Sig P320 because of the higher pressure 115 grain military M-1152 FMJ. I have shot a lot of 40,000 PSI W-W 115 grain +P+ JHP and I’d be surprised if the new military M-1152 load is any hotter than the 115 grain +P+ JHP.

Posted: 5/21/2023 11:54:23 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
The 9mm SAAMI spec pressure is 35K PSI.

The 9mm NATO spec pressure is 36.5K PSI.

View Quote

The 9mm SAAMI and 9mm military NATO specs use completely different methods of measuring the pressure and there is no formula for converting one to the other so no comparison can be made between those two systems.

...

Posted: 5/21/2023 12:25:35 PM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
All depends on who actually is selling the "9mm NATO". Winchester M1152 is definitely a very WARM loading. SAR USA 9mm NATO, more mild.

View Quote

@Buffman_LT1

How would you compare 124gr m882 q4318 win?

Posted: 5/21/2023 12:39:32 PM EDT

[#16]

I still have a can of the Hirtenberg L7A1 - makes my Mini Uzi run like a cat on fire.

Posted: 5/21/2023 1:20:09 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:

@Buffman_LT1

How would you compare 124gr m882 q4318 win?

View Quote

The Q4318 gets to about 1,270 fps in a 7.72" barrel. Definitely hotter than a typical 124gr loading. The M1152 is still hotter, but that is only a 115gr loading.

Posted: 5/22/2023 11:38:28 AM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:
"9mm NATO is for SMGs" or "hot SMG ammo" is just BS.

View Quote

This.

Posted: 5/22/2023 2:15:15 PM EDT

[#19]

I have shot Federal 115gr JHP 9BPLE and that is +P+ ammo in Glocks, Sig 226/229, Smith M&P M&P 2.0, and RRA LAR-9 Carbine..no issues.

Posted: 5/22/2023 8:08:03 PM EDT

[#20]

In the mid 1990’s our security force at a nuclear facility used Beretta model 92s as their sidearm. The security manager insisted on using NATO spec ammo, because he was a retired marine, and if the ammo were good for the USMC it was good for us. With endless range time practice was finding split cases due to chambers starting to go large out of spec, and some locking block failures. After the manager was convinced to switch to Speer Lawman ammo, pistol parts replacement went down dramatically. The idea of a qualified armorer’s inspection on a scheduled routine didn’t occur to him.

So an occasional mag or two is ok, but a steady diet will wear parts faster.

Posted: 5/25/2023 3:23:18 PM EDT

[#21]

I have used the Winchester and IMI 124 nato spec 124 grain ammo in all my full 9mm pistols for 2 decades ,and have never had any issues ,and no signs or wear . In fact I find it to be very accurate and surefire in every 9mm pistol of mine and my friends have . I just recently got a S&W shield plus, and it functions fine so far in the 200 rounds of the Winchester 124 grain M882. A bit snappy in a small micro, but not bad at all.

Posted: 5/25/2023 6:35:40 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
The Q4318 gets to about 1,270 fps in a 7.72" barrel. Definitely hotter than a typical 124gr loading. The M1152 is still hotter, but that is only a 115gr loading.

View Quote

Is the M1152 the same as their "Service Grade"? 115 grain @ 1350fps according to SGAmmo's listing

Posted: 6/18/2023 6:08:15 AM EDT

[#23]

I shoot it all the time , in about all my nine guns , just got a case of Win 124 Nato this week . and I have never had a issue shooting 5.56 or 223 ammo in any AR or Ruger Mini 14 gun since 1975 none .

Posted: 6/24/2023 1:07:36 PM EDT

[#24]

It’s dirty, moderately precise and accurate, has minimal flash, and goes transonic between 30-50m depending on barrel length.

Because of its exposed lead base, it aerosolizes lead badly and isn’t optimized for indoor ranges or suppressed weapons.

It’s nothing special. It works fine.

Posted: 6/24/2023 1:47:57 PM EDT

[#25]

My G17, G45, P320, and VP9 all have shown great accuracy with it with high volumes being consumed, not an issue on a properly made handguns with modern materials.

Definitely more special than over half of the offerings out there since so many different brands and models all shoot it very well.

Posted: 6/25/2023 2:26:05 PM EDT

[#26]

Pressure standards are MAXIMUM.

SAAMI pressure Max for 9mm is 35,000 PSI

Could be loaded a lot lighter than that, but that's the maximum it is supposed to be.

NATO pressure max for 9mm is 36,500 PSI

SAAMI 9mm +P is 38,500

So if actually loaded to NATO spec, it's about halfway between 9mm and 9mm +P, and closer to standard pressure than +P

Posted: 6/25/2023 3:47:48 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
So if actually loaded to NATO spec, it's about halfway between 9mm and 9mm +P, and closer to standard pressure than +P

View Quote

The mil/NATO spec uses a completely different method for measuring pressure than SAAMI. The two methods are incomparable, there is no formula to convert one to the other.

...

Posted: 6/25/2023 4:44:18 PM EDT

[#28]

Here's a copy of the NATO Standard for 9mm ammunition:

STANAG 4090 Cartridge Small Arms Ammunition 9mm Parabellum

Attached File

Posted: 6/25/2023 5:15:24 PM EDT

[#29]

Hackathorn, Wilson, and Ayoob used to know a lot and be excellent sources of information.

Those days have passed

Posted: 6/25/2023 5:29:33 PM EDT

[#30]

We used to like using the Hirtenberger 124 grain carbine ammo at some of the 3 gun matches because it whacked the steel plates noticeably harder than things like Winchester white box ball. The Hirtenberger ammo was hot stuff.

Posted: 6/26/2023 11:55:32 PM EDT

[#31]

The Hirt is going 1450 fps out of a Sterling 6.5" barrel., M882 out of a Hi Power is 1190 fps.

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