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Posted: 2/14/2021 12:23:32 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Note on the White Poly80 frame. They yellow with age. Keep out off the sunlight. If you are hanging it up in your office. That is why I Dyed mine in Blue. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 12:31:16 AM EDT
[#2]
Are there any kits that have a g19 sized frame with a 17 or 34 length slide?
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Posted: 2/14/2021 12:35:01 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are there any kits that have a g19 sized frame with a 17 or 34 length slide? You are looking for a P80 940CL but unfortunately I'm pretty sure they are discontinued. MidwayUSA was the last I'm aware that had any but showing out of stock now. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 1:09:01 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 2/14/2021 1:43:02 PM EDT
[#5]
I was bored today and had a muzzle device laying around so I opened it up for 9mm and put it on one of my polymer 80. Not sure if I will keep it on this or move it to my sub 2000.
I really need to find another project.  |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 12:28:38 AM EDT
[#6]
I've always hated the Glock 20 grip so I figured I'd give the PF45 a try in 10mm. Glad I did. It is MUCH better than the factory Glock grip.
 Attached FileRockslide slide, OEM barrel, Zev Fulcrum trigger, OD green RMR, Ameriglo sights, Vickers mag catch. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 12:50:07 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are there any kits that have a g19 sized frame with a 17 or 34 length slide? Here are a couple of my 940CL builds. The FDE frame has a Polymer 80 brand slide and the Cobalt frame has a G34 Goon slide from 80P Builders. Both have Swampfox Kingslayer red dots.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 1:22:33 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wish that Polymer 80 would bring back the 940CL frame. One has so many options with that frame. I have built several of them. The 940CL is also the easiest frame to modify for a Gen 4/5 slide to fit too. Here are a couple of my 940CL builds. The FDE frame has a Polymer 80 brand slide and the Cobalt frame has a G34 Goon slide from 80P Builders. Both have Swampfox Kingslayer red dots. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/101824/CL_with_Kingslayer_jpg-1825969.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/101824/Cobalt_G34_jpg-1825970.JPG that bottom gun is what I want plus a threaded barrel. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 3:13:28 AM EDT
[#9]
Any slides or parts to avoid when building out a gst 9? I bought one on a whim and just want to make sure it cycles properly. I was planning to add an agency barrel PMM comp, and an rmr.
Thanks! |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 11:19:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any slides or parts to avoid when building out a gst 9? I bought one on a whim and just want to make sure it cycles properly. I was planning to add an agency barrel PMM comp, and an rmr. Thanks! I made the mistake of getting one of their G23 slides and it was out of spec, burrs everywhere, and excessive Cerakote that had to be cleaned up. I had to open up the front of the slide for the recoil spring assembly to fit along with the firing pin hole in breech face since it was too small. I had to deburr the firing pin channel, extractor groove and extractor plunger channel. I had to remove excess coating on the breech face. And I have yet to get any aftermarket barrel to work in the slide without issues. It will only function reliably with an OEM barrel. Others have had their slides break right at the slide stop notch or at the nose where guide rod hole is. |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 1:20:27 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes there is. avoid anything from Rock Slide USA/RWG along with the Ebay seller ammomagusa. Unless of course you like to gamble because you have about a 50/50 chance of actually getting a slide from Rock Slide that actually works and doesn't break on you within the first 200 or so rounds. I made the mistake of getting one of their G23 slides and it was out of spec, burrs everywhere, and excessive Cerakote that had to be cleaned up. I had to open up the front of the slide for the recoil spring assembly to fit along with the firing pin hole in breech face since it was too small. I had to deburr the firing pin channel, extractor groove and extractor plunger channel. I had to remove excess coating on the breech face. And I have yet to get any aftermarket barrel to work in the slide without issues. It will only function reliably with an OEM barrel. Others have had their slides break right at the slide stop notch or at the nose where guide rod hole is. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Any slides or parts to avoid when building out a gst 9? I bought one on a whim and just want to make sure it cycles properly. I was planning to add an agency barrel PMM comp, and an rmr. Thanks! I made the mistake of getting one of their G23 slides and it was out of spec, burrs everywhere, and excessive Cerakote that had to be cleaned up. I had to open up the front of the slide for the recoil spring assembly to fit along with the firing pin hole in breech face since it was too small. I had to deburr the firing pin channel, extractor groove and extractor plunger channel. I had to remove excess coating on the breech face. And I have yet to get any aftermarket barrel to work in the slide without issues. It will only function reliably with an OEM barrel. Others have had their slides break right at the slide stop notch or at the nose where guide rod hole is. Great, thank you |
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Posted: 2/15/2021 4:24:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes there is. avoid anything from Rock Slide USA/RWG along with the Ebay seller ammomagusa. Unless of course you like to gamble because you have about a 50/50 chance of actually getting a slide from Rock Slide that actually works and doesn't break on you within the first 200 or so rounds. I made the mistake of getting one of their G23 slides and it was out of spec, burrs everywhere, and excessive Cerakote that had to be cleaned up. I had to open up the front of the slide for the recoil spring assembly to fit along with the firing pin hole in breech face since it was too small. I had to deburr the firing pin channel, extractor groove and extractor plunger channel. I had to remove excess coating on the breech face. And I have yet to get any aftermarket barrel to work in the slide without issues. It will only function reliably with an OEM barrel. Others have had their slides break right at the slide stop notch or at the nose where guide rod hole is. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Any slides or parts to avoid when building out a gst 9? I bought one on a whim and just want to make sure it cycles properly. I was planning to add an agency barrel PMM comp, and an rmr. Thanks! I made the mistake of getting one of their G23 slides and it was out of spec, burrs everywhere, and excessive Cerakote that had to be cleaned up. I had to open up the front of the slide for the recoil spring assembly to fit along with the firing pin hole in breech face since it was too small. I had to deburr the firing pin channel, extractor groove and extractor plunger channel. I had to remove excess coating on the breech face. And I have yet to get any aftermarket barrel to work in the slide without issues. It will only function reliably with an OEM barrel. Others have had their slides break right at the slide stop notch or at the nose where guide rod hole is. Great, I just built a 10mm with a Rockslide slide. 
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Posted: 2/15/2021 7:06:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great, I just built a 10mm with a Rockslide slide. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Any slides or parts to avoid when building out a gst 9? I bought one on a whim and just want to make sure it cycles properly. I was planning to add an agency barrel PMM comp, and an rmr. Thanks! I made the mistake of getting one of their G23 slides and it was out of spec, burrs everywhere, and excessive Cerakote that had to be cleaned up. I had to open up the front of the slide for the recoil spring assembly to fit along with the firing pin hole in breech face since it was too small. I had to deburr the firing pin channel, extractor groove and extractor plunger channel. I had to remove excess coating on the breech face. And I have yet to get any aftermarket barrel to work in the slide without issues. It will only function reliably with an OEM barrel. Others have had their slides break right at the slide stop notch or at the nose where guide rod hole is. Great, I just built a 10mm with a Rockslide slide. I put together a .45ACP with a Rockslide slide as well. Haven't had time to shoot it yet but everything fits properly. It's too bad that they have problems. I bought it because I like the way they look. |
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Posted: 2/22/2021 8:41:17 PM EDT
[#14]
Just finished another. Strike Industry P80. This one the rails were great. To bad they are discontinued. The black with a Sprinta slide.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 2/22/2021 9:00:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Hopefully you guys that bought Rock Slides have good luck with them. You have a 50/50 chance of getting a good or bad slide from them.
What is the problem with Rock Slide you ask??????? There is plenty wrong with them starting with their lack of quality control. Seriously do a search on the forum for Rock Slide and you will see all of the people that have had issues with them. To include the slides breaking. On my G23 slide, the guide rod hole and firing pin hole were both machined to small and and both had to be opened up just to install parts. I also had some serious work to do in removing burrs everywhere to include:
I also had to excess coating on the breech face and extractor groove (along with deburr) before the OEM barrel would even fit. None of the aftermarket barrels I tried will work with this slide. I even made sure to properly hand fit some barrels and they still don't work. Rock Slide also does not properly heat treat and temper their slides. We have had many instances where the slides have cracked or broke.
9 times out of ten when someone has an issue with their build and they used a slide from Rock Slide, it has been found that the slides are out of spec. Also their customer service is very lacking when it comes to taking care of customers that receive bad slides. So yes there is a definite and legitimate reason why people do not like anything from Rock Slide USA and why we tell everyone to stay away from them |
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Posted: 2/22/2021 9:05:39 PM EDT
[#16]
The last thing I would want is for my handgun (where I cut corners to save a few $$$) to blow up in my hands.
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Posted: 2/22/2021 9:10:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully you guys that bought Rock Slides have good luck with them. You have a 50/50 chance of getting a good or bad slide from them. What is the problem with Rock Slide you ask??????? There is plenty wrong with them starting with their lack of quality control. Seriously do a search on the forum for Rock Slide and you will see all of the people that have had issues with them. To include the slides breaking. On my G23 slide, the guide rod hole and firing pin hole were both machined to small and and both had to be opened up just to install parts. I also had some serious work to do in removing burrs everywhere to include:
I also had to excess coating on the breech face and extractor groove (along with deburr) before the OEM barrel would even fit. None of the aftermarket barrels I tried will work with this slide. I even made sure to properly hand fit some barrels and they still don't work. Rock Slide also does not properly heat treat and temper their slides. We have had many instances where the slides have cracked or broke.
9 times out of ten when someone has an issue with their build and they used a slide from Rock Slide, it has been found that the slides are out of spec. Also their customer service is very lacking when it comes to taking care of customers that receive bad slides. So yes there is a definite and legitimate reason why people do not like anything from Rock Slide USA and why we tell everyone to stay away from them 100 rounds through mine so far with zero issues so fingers crossed... It functioned great right off the bat, bone dry without lube. I know cracks will take time to appear, if they happen. Hopefully the beefier 10mm slide won't have the same issues. |
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Posted: 2/22/2021 9:14:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hopefully you guys that bought Rock Slides have good luck with them. You have a 50/50 chance of getting a good or bad slide from them. What is the problem with Rock Slide you ask??????? There is plenty wrong with them starting with their lack of quality control. Seriously do a search on the forum for Rock Slide and you will see all of the people that have had issues with them. To include the slides breaking. On my G23 slide, the guide rod hole and firing pin hole were both machined to small and and both had to be opened up just to install parts. I also had some serious work to do in removing burrs everywhere to include:
I also had to excess coating on the breech face and extractor groove (along with deburr) before the OEM barrel would even fit. None of the aftermarket barrels I tried will work with this slide. I even made sure to properly hand fit some barrels and they still don't work. Rock Slide also does not properly heat treat and temper their slides. We have had many instances where the slides have cracked or broke.
9 times out of ten when someone has an issue with their build and they used a slide from Rock Slide, it has been found that the slides are out of spec. Also their customer service is very lacking when it comes to taking care of customers that receive bad slides. So yes there is a definite and legitimate reason why people do not like anything from Rock Slide USA and why we tell everyone to stay away from them Thanks. I hadn't noticed any of the bad reports before buying the slide. If Lone Wolf had 21 slides in stock I'd just buy one and sell the Rock Slide on ebay. The way things are now, I guess I will be giving the Rock Slide a chance. It's too bad because I think they make a great looking slide. |
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Posted: 2/22/2021 10:18:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Unfortunately I had to do quite a bit to mine before I could even install any parts. And others have had theirs break between 100- 250 rounds.
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Posted: 2/23/2021 11:09:30 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately I had to do quite a bit to mine before I could even install any parts. And others have had theirs break between 100- 250 rounds. It must be luck of the draw. Mine went together just as easily as my other slides. The breaking issue is concerning though. Maybe I will back order a 21 slide elsewhere. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 12:36:22 PM EDT
[#21]
Looking for some help here, I’m in the process of building my Strike80 frame but can never seem to grab the strike80 mag wells when they restock. Is anyone using a mag well OTHER than strike industries on their strike80?
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:00:36 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looking for some help here, I’m in the process of building my Strike80 frame but can never seem to grab the strike80 mag wells when they restock. Is anyone using a mag well OTHER than strike industries on their strike80? Nope. I'm waiting for three of them to come in stock as we speak. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 1:20:04 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looking for some help here, I'm in the process of building my Strike80 frame but can never seem to grab the strike80 mag wells when they restock. Is anyone using a mag well OTHER than strike industries on their strike80? And the Strike 80 is different enough that a magwell for a P80 or OEM Glock frame will not work. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 4:40:24 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just finished another. Strike Industry P80. This one the rails were great. To bad they are discontinued. Quote HistoryQuoted: Just finished another. Strike Industry P80. This one the rails were great. To bad they are discontinued. I was curious about this, so I did a quick Google search. Found this on Reddit, posted a week ago: I saw a post on here earlier saying the Strikes were being discontinued, and that MDX was receiving the last batch. So, I reached out to Strike Industries for some clarification and an explanation. They were kind of confused as to why I would think this, so I explained that there some talk going around about it. They assured me that is not the case, and the next batch is CURRENTLY in production. We will be seeing the next major restock somewhere between 2-3 weeks, but likely right around the beginning of next month. Strike Industries claimed the Strike 80 frames are neither permanently nor temporarily discontinued. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 5:31:24 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are looking for a P80 940CL but unfortunately I'm pretty sure they are discontinued. MidwayUSA was the last I'm aware that had any but showing out of stock now. Can't you put a 17 slide on a 19 frame with just the addition of the little half moon filler under the front of the slide? The 34 slide is a little longer than the 17, so couldn't you just find a bigger filler piece? |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 6:08:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can't you put a 17 slide on a 19 frame with just the addition of the little half moon filler under the front of the slide? The 34 slide is a little longer than the 17, so couldn't you just find a bigger filler piece? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You are looking for a P80 940CL but unfortunately I'm pretty sure they are discontinued. MidwayUSA was the last I'm aware that had any but showing out of stock now. Can't you put a 17 slide on a 19 frame with just the addition of the little half moon filler under the front of the slide? The 34 slide is a little longer than the 17, so couldn't you just find a bigger filler piece? G17 barrel above a G19 barrel. Notice the difference in the locking lugs.  Attached File940C on left of a 940CL (uses G17 slide). Again notice the difference in the front locking block rails.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 6:46:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No you can not use a Gen 3 (or Gen 4) G17 slide on a Gen 3 G19 or 940C frame. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 6:49:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No you can not use a Gen 3 (or Gen 4) G17 slide on a Gen 3 G19 or 940C frame. The barrel lugs are totally different between the G17 and G19. Also the front locking block rails on the Polymer 80 904C (G19) and 940v2 (G17) are also different. G17 barrel above a G19 barrel. Notice the difference in the locking lugs. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/101824/IMG_2133_jpeg-1838397.JPG 940C on left of a 940CL (uses G17 slide). Again notice the difference in the front locking block rails. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/101824/C_vs_CL_FLBR_jpg-1838400.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: You are looking for a P80 940CL but unfortunately I'm pretty sure they are discontinued. MidwayUSA was the last I'm aware that had any but showing out of stock now. Can't you put a 17 slide on a 19 frame with just the addition of the little half moon filler under the front of the slide? The 34 slide is a little longer than the 17, so couldn't you just find a bigger filler piece? G17 barrel above a G19 barrel. Notice the difference in the locking lugs. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/101824/IMG_2133_jpeg-1838397.JPG 940C on left of a 940CL (uses G17 slide). Again notice the difference in the front locking block rails. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/101824/C_vs_CL_FLBR_jpg-1838400.JPG I believe Brownells makes a G19 Long Slide and barrel to solve this issue. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 7:07:21 PM EDT
[#29]
I did a Strike 80. Actually have parts for a 2nd coming too. Going to play around with some multicam urban. Here's my first config:
 Then my second:    Really dig the crowned barrel. I'll play around with the parts/colors and see what I like the best, ha. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 7:21:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe Brownells makes a G19 Long Slide and barrel to solve this issue. BROWNELLS - 19LS SLIDE & BARREL KIT FOR GLOCK |
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Posted: 2/27/2021 8:34:30 PM EDT
[#31]
Came out pretty well. Suarez G35 slide coated locally (Battleworn Burnt Bronze), the barrel shown is the .357SIG and the threaded .40 is elsewhere. I enjoy .40 suppressed a lot more than .357 comped, but all that extra weight by the muzzle makes it real easy to shoot.
Swampfox Justice + steel shield works well, though it did catch some soot and lube spray. 
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Posted: 2/28/2021 2:15:56 PM EDT
[#32]
Will add a pic later. Did a Poly 80 940C (19 size) last night to match my 26. Had lots of trouble. The jig had the pins being drilled a smidge too low for the rear insert but o filed the insert some to fix.
Then the trigger would not release the firing pin. So I had to remove a little material and it got close but no cigar. Then I remembered I had a Glock 17 trigger and - connector in my parts bin. That fixed it but I was really excited for the flat trigger. Guess I will buy an overwatch. May order another lower. Do they sell it without the jig? |
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Posted: 3/7/2021 4:39:52 AM EDT
[#33]
My new favorite P80
Top pic shows the most accurate color of the slide (metallic gray). The back plate is real silver so it should patina nicely over time.  Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 3/7/2021 4:09:22 PM EDT
[#34]
Here is my contribution, Built it before doing much/any research (especially Rockslide USA though my slide seems fine so far)
The initial plan was econo Gucci after shooting a buddies P80 build with Lighting Tap SPSR trigger by Alpha One from Delta Team Tactical. Which fixes the biggest complaint I've had with any Glock type pistol for years, making the trigger feel more like a 1911 than the usual cap gun Glock trigger To date, one range trip 100 rounds down range no malfunctions whatsoever using magazines from Glock, Magpul and A.C. Unity.  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/7/2021 7:26:52 PM EDT
[#35]
Anyone making a G26/27/33 sized P80 anymore?
EDIT: Found - Clicky If these auctions dont pan out on GB, Im throwing down. I have 2 G26 frames I am winning on GB now, this would take the place of that. |
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Posted: 3/7/2021 8:25:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone making a G26/27/33 sized P80 anymore? The PF940SC from Polymer80 is the one I'm aware of that made one in that size, but nobody seems to have them in stock. |
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Posted: 3/8/2021 11:56:29 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The PF940SC from Polymer80 is the one I'm aware of that made one in that size, but nobody seems to have them in stock. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Anyone making a G26/27/33 sized P80 anymore? The PF940SC from Polymer80 is the one I'm aware of that made one in that size, but nobody seems to have them in stock. |
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Posted: 4/8/2021 2:21:43 AM EDT
[#38]
Got some upgrades
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Posted: 4/8/2021 3:08:32 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryVery nice, really like the color combo!
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Posted: 4/8/2021 11:02:19 PM EDT
[#40]
Only need a Strike 80 magwell, some sights and the droop fix before I'm calling this done...
 Attached FileAlso, I've seen a bunch of people asking about holsters.  Attached File Attached FileUM Tactical. I had to add two additional thin rubber spacers but after that she was good to go. |
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Posted: 4/13/2021 6:59:12 PM EDT
[#41]
600 rounds down range, some stovepipes, BTF and misfeeds in first few hundred rounds.
I changed ejector to Gen 4, realized that the issues were probably related more to weak rounds: Blazer brass and weak reloads. The last 270 rounds ejected strongly and recoil was stiffer, zero misfeeds or stovepipes. Note the split Glock magazine. It’s one of those non-drop free ones, the plastic overcoat split over the years. It still works, though. My better Reloads were 147gr Ranier RN, 4.3gr VV N350 done in 2013 at about a dime per round. Brownell’s slide, Silencerco threaded barrel, Glock slide parts, Rockey Brass frame parts, Brownell’s Coyote Polymer80 frame. Mags used are Glock, Magpul and a couple of no name, no witness hole magazines. I’ll have to try my Osprey suppressor on this. 
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Posted: 4/14/2021 11:29:07 PM EDT
[#42]
Think I got my trigger issues figured out. Thread protector on its way, time to think sights and optic. This is some what a budget build so maybe Swampfox optic. Sights I'm clueless on.
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Posted: 4/18/2021 3:19:22 PM EDT
[#43]
Got my PF45 put together.
KKM .45 barrel+comp is on the way, but using OEM for now. LWD custom slide with MOS cut Dawson sights OPF-G RMR plate with Holosun HE508T-RD X2 Overwatch Precision minus connector and Poly trigger 
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Posted: 4/18/2021 3:36:14 PM EDT
[#44]
12 rounds of .45 ACP in a Strike80 frame. Still waiting on a slide and barrel.
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Posted: 4/18/2021 4:15:55 PM EDT
[#45]
Just a FYI. If you're looking for a holster that's as custom as your P80, check out Legacy Firearms Co. It's a bit pricey and the wait is long (about 45 days or so), but the holster fits perfect regardless what you add to it. Most holster companies only accommodate certain brand firearms/optics/lights, Legacy realizes that there are more brands out there then just Glock, Sig, trijicon and surefire.
This holster is custom to my pistol P80 frame Swampfox optic Olight Valkyrie mini2 suppressor height sights  Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 4/21/2021 3:34:43 AM EDT
[#46]
Finished my first build, and it was a blast.
I may end up having to get one more before they clamp down on these. 
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Posted: 4/21/2021 12:31:32 PM EDT
[#47]
Here is my latest build. It is a Lone Wolf Freedom Wolf 80% frame and a G44 22lr slide. It passed all safety/function tests and hand cycles dummy rounds just fine. I tested it out today by shooting 200 rounds of CCI Mini Mags and about 50 rounds of Aquila Super Extra. It worked great. Now if someone could just make a reliable and functioning optics cut slide for the G44 I would be a happy camper.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 4/25/2021 12:41:58 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryNice. |
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Posted: 4/27/2021 7:48:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Swore I would never venture anywhere near GD but it looks like they stay on topic and treat it more like a technical forum. Thanks for directions. From Start: https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-66d90f10fb/product_images/uploaded_images/arf-3.jpg?t=1596640074&_ga=2.250946886.1180791529.1596501722-803761528.1594246819 To Finish: https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-66d90f10fb/product_images/uploaded_images/arf-4.png?t=1596640079&_ga=2.250946886.1180791529.1596501722-803761528.1594246819 That's awesome! Family night! |
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Posted: 5/1/2021 1:27:23 AM EDT
[#50]
All your P80's belong to Joe!
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