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Ummmm you apparently are ashamed of your gun since you will not say what make and model it is. If you are to shy to take it out when it is needed, then it really does not matter what round you use.

 

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So are you saying that FMJ is an ineffective fight stopper because there's no links to a website that says otherwise?
 

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Based on the original post, I'd say 1911.  But, really expensive, or really cheap?
 

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First off, all handgun rounds are ineffective "fight stoppers".  The whole "fight stopper" concept comes from made up data and gun magazine marketing.





Next, there is a body of research that is reflected in many places on the web because that's where we find research nowadays.  It has been nicely summarized in the ammo section of this board and is a very accessible version of this data.  I suggest you become familiar with the science if you are interested in the topic since you apparently have not done much reading on this topic.  You might also look into why Marshal and Sanow and their 'One Shot Stop' baloney was discredited.
In conclusion, the .45 acp FMJ is not a good choice for SD ammo.  Any number of JHP's in calibers .38 special and up are better.  That's not my opinion.  I didn't hear it from the other guys or my grandpa.  It's the result of real research started by the FBI and carried on by others.  

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I've heard every argument you've made, in every FMJ vs. JHP for carry argument I've ever posted on on 3-4 different sites.

NOTHING new ever comes up.  It's the same re-hashed argument over and over again.
Because they are valid facts.  The only thing "new" about them is the technology of JHP design advancing and becoming more reliable and effective.  All of your arguements against JHP's are very outdated.  They were all valid during the development of the first JHP's which rarely expanded relaibly, did not feed well in just about any semi-auto handgun design due to their shape and did not penetrate deep enough to reliably stop an attacker.  Modern JHP designs with bonded jackets with advanced propellents which will generate the necessary velocities for a balance of expansion and penetration makes your argements incorrect.  15, or maybe even 10 years ago, I would agree with you, but not anymore.

FMJ works, cycles reliably in a wider range of handguns, provides barrier penetration, and penetrates deeply, which translates to the ability with many rounds to makes cns hits though many layers of clothing and appendages, beyond what typical modern JHP's can achieve.

The funny thing is, every time I write any of that people assume I advocate carrying FMJ instead of JHP (and I even mention it like I do now) but when pressed can't point out the fact I did. That's because all I am doing is pointing out the facts.
Which one of your incorrect "facts" is "the fact" you are referring to?  That CNS hits stop a fight instantly?  Obviously, but as stated above, you can't guarantee a CNS hit every time.

The truth is, I believe that the hype and gun rag BS over JHP's SEVERELY crippled defensive ammo.  (JHP's where originally designed to STOP over penetration, which led to under penetration, not stop "better") That started the  "Faster is better" JHP craze, when it was found that jhp's under penetrated, and people got killed from failing to stop badguys (which probably happened WAY MORE than FMJ's passing through and hurting innocents) the result was slowed down velocities, followed by better JHP construction.
Agreed.  JHP design has advanced so they expand more reliably and manufacturers did address the velocity issues.

IMHO, when the fast calibers came out, 9x23, 10mm, 9mm +P+, .357 Sig, they would have been MUCH better served by modern construction, but in a jacketed soft nose bullet.  That harkens back to the .357 mag being known as a game ender for badguys, .357 softpoints going like hell on wheels.  It's also why the .357 SIG has not gained the same notoriety even though it should theoretically be just as good.

You should look into the data of actual LE and non-LE shootings collected.  By mentioning the .357 magnum as being known as the "game ender for bad guys", you must be somewhat familiar with it.  You have the caliber correct, but it's not the .357 magnum JSP that is "the" undisputed most effective self-defense round.  It's the .357 magnum 125gr JHP moving at 1450fps manufactured by either Federal or Remington which is "the" undisputed most effective self-defense round.  Go back and double check your data and you'll see.  It is a monster of a round that causes massive trauma using a combination of expansion and velocity.  If you have a 125gr FMJ of .38 caliber moving at 1450fps, especially with a pointed bullet design like the .45 FMJ ammo you recommend, you won't have much tissue damage, but a very nice pinhole right through your attacker.  But since every shot is a CNS hit, it doesn't matter, right?
   

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Ahh you're one of those "You don't agree with me, so you don't know what you're talking about" guys!


That typically leads to MUCH more interesting conversations.

I've read a lot of the Doc GkR stuff, in fact I do believe I read a lot of it before it was complied and put of ARFCOM.  I read a TON of the FAS stuff as well, before it was complied on your link ( lot of that stuff is WAY outdated though).  As well as the coroner page where a dude talks about effects he's seen.  I've poured over the FBI wounding report, so on and so forth and down the line.

I've also watch people get the piss shot out of them day in and day out for seven months, and became pretty familiar with GSW's.  For instance, you can tell a CNS hit from a miss based on if a bad guy falls like a marionette with the strings cut, or if they sort of stagger to the ground with a "why is this hole in me and my stomach hurts" look.


But yea, everything I ever need to know must be on your one link, which happens to be a short summery for people to be refereed to when they ask basic questions in the forum.


Adequate penetration and CNS hits are key to quickly stopping an aggressor, and MANY of the references you made support that.


   

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I'm done posting in this thread, but I will continue reading.  I obviously have my opinions, which I've completely stated here, that are based on my research and the results of the ballistic gel demonstrations we've conducted at the LE distributor for LE agencies.  I know that ballistic gel is not perfect, but when comparing the results of the gel with the compiled data of real world shooting incidents, they closely match.  Seeing the difference between what is basically a caliber sized wound channel though the gel blocks caused by the FMJ rounds and a huge, severed cavity in the blocks as a result of a modern JHP of the correct weight and velocity for the caliber, causing the blocks to move back considerably, it's obvious that, even though you don't believe the "theory", a lot of energy is expended inside.





And, aside from us disagreeing on defensive rounds, I want to thank you for your service.  And I do agree that you know more about FMJ performance from your active duty and experience.  But, unless you were in violation of the Hague Convention, you have absolutely no real-world experience with the effects of JHP's.








Thanks, for the thanks.
Also, FWIW I would venture to guess you wouldn't know what my experience was with JHP's on the civilian side, so I do say that's a bold claim.

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So, why be handicapped like the military is with the Hague Convention and use ball ammo?

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One could also argue that the Hague Convention sets ethical standards, and that one not following it is also not living up to set and internationally respected ethical standards/consideration...  That's the one that I struggle with.  I believe that JHP is better, but using it against international ethical standards (outdated as they may be) gives me a bad feeling about it.