Dear HK,

Take my body, I am ready. Do not be gentle.

XOXOXO,
Creature
**********************************************************

My dear arfcommers, I seek your counsel as I prepare for my virginal ravaging upon entering the realm of Hella Klout.

I am pretty much settled on ordering a USPc9. What I am not settled on is whether to go with the V1 or the LEM. The LEM is interesting for sure. And I have yet to find any negative reviews, but I am sure there must be at least some pushback.

So, before I go plunk down a boatload of cash upon the HK alter, is there anyone out there who is completely familiar with the LEM? And if so, are there ANY disadvantages or cons that the LEM has for EDC/SD...versus the tried and true V1 trigger?

I am a huge USP fanboy. However, none of my USPs are in LEM. I just didn't know about lem when I bought them. I will be converting some of them, I guess.

My only serious complaint about the USP is that the engineers fucked the dog with the decocker.
The safety lever is
safe -up
fire- down
decock-all the way down
If you are in an actual stress situation, and you carry with the gun on "safe" , when you go to put it on "fire" , you can decock it by accident, leaving you with a heavy double action first trigger pull. Its happened to me many times just on drills, thankfully.

The LEM alleviates all that. Pull it , shoot it.
My advice is to try out the LEM before you buy anything. Once you are used to it, you'll love it.

Again, my favorite guns are USPs, but my edc is an HK45C because LEM.

Good luck.

Yeah LEM is pretty interesting. I have a P2000 and it's a great carry gun. Installed a Grey Guns short reset trigger kit. Also installed lighter springs for the hammer and trigger. Some people love it, some people hate it. I'm still not sure. If you want the safety and simplicity of a DAO, but with a way better trigger that feels closer to SAO, then yeah LEM is pretty cool. Shooting from the reset is a must with LEM.

USP 9mm Expert. I didn’t bother looking at other, lesser HKs.

Try it first.

I'm a traditional DA/SA guy (even though I have been issued a Glock for almost 20 years) and I hate the LEM.
I converted my USP Compact to LEM then light LEM than back to DA/SA/decock.

I converted a neighboring PD's USP 45 to LEM from DAO.  So I guess that's better than DAO.

I just did not like the feel of it.

All my HKs are DA/SA except for my VP9

I have a pair of HK pistols and one is LEM and the other is the traditional DA/SA.  I love the LEM but you may want to try it first.

I have a number of HKs in traditional DA/SA and tried one LEM and absolutely hated it and ended up getting rid of it.  It has a very long very light trigger pull that I couldn’t get used to.  You had to pull the trigger so far back to fire that I’d constantly be thinking that it was broken and wouldn’t fire.  I’ll take a good striker fire over LEM any day, but I’m in the minority as a lot of other HK fans love it.

My recommendation is to definitely try before you buy.

They r on my Experts and installed the "hybrid" version on my full size 9mm.  I love it but its definitely something you will have to get use to.  You go from a crappy 8 lb trigger to 1 that's crazy light.

I have the LEM hybrid/match on two pistols and I really like it.  +1 to try before you buy

And why is this desirable on EDC / SD  pistol again?

I tried a USP 40 but I was not sure about it.  Didn't
buy that gun my mistake.  Anyway I bought a USP
9 love it to death it has a V1  ,/ DA trigger is long about
11# but smooth.  SA is about 4.5 -5# smooth short take up and I love it.  Buy it in V1 cheaper to start
with. It can be changed to LEM anytime later.
If you can shoot a LEM before you buy that would be best. Just my 2 cents can't go wrong either way
because you have an HK.  P

Any long term, high round count durability information available? Should I assume that HK has tested the ever living shit out of the LEM?

“LEM, the worst trigger ever in any pistol” says every Border Patrol Agent.

In my opinion, LEM is the best combat/carry trigger system out there. The only downside is that it has a slight learning curve, but once you get the hang of it, it's awesome.

After carrying if for 14 years, there are still probably 50,000 CBP agents that would disagree. But some people are more dogmatic than pragmatic when it comes to the relationship between brands and features.

I love the LEM on my P30.    LOVE IT!  Very easy to shoot.

The main thing that's going to throw you about the LEM is that the hammer makes a full cycle on every shot (from at rest to full cock to at rest).  Initially visually distracting.

Tactilly (as oppsoed to tactically ) it's a better feeling trigger to me.

That being said, I've flipped my USPc40 back and forth several times and now have it in V3 configuration.  I like C&L and

What do you consider high round count?

They have the crappy LEM. You want the match hybrid LEM. On the CBP guns the reset is the worst part.

Light LEM is awesome. The heavier versions suck.

And I think the opposite

I've been carrying a standard (not light) LEM for almost 10 years.  If you are the type to practice regularly with your pistol, you forget it's a LEM.  I find the LEM works best at speed.  It is not a crisp target trigger and you need to make certain your grip is firm and consistent.

There are 50,000 police officers that hate their Glock as well.  Hand them a 1911 with a crisp 3lb trigger and they fall in love.

The stock LEM trigger is about 7 lbs and a Glock is a little under that at 5.5 lb.  The nice part about the LEM is that the trigger break has a smoother transition where most striker fired guns are more of a hard wall that you push against.  If you take the LEM trigger and accelerate just before the end of the travel, you won't even feel the transition.

On top of that, there are several spring options out there that allow you to tune the LEM how you would like.

Anyway, LEM is my favorite. The way I see it, is it gives you the advantages of a hammer gun and a striker gun in the same package.

As you draw you stage it like you would a DA gun, but there's virtually no weight for staging... by the time you're on target the trigger hit its wall and is staged....then you basically have a SA pull. Once you send the round, let out only to reset and wash-rinse-repeat. You will never have that heavy DA pull unless there was a failure of some sort.

Very underrated system, IMO. Most people who don't like it don't know how to use it... but of course some do know how to use it and still don't like it. YMMV

Can I expect the LEM trigger to last at least as long as the standard trigger should? Have there been any long term durability test reports?

BTW, I have always preferred to carry a DA/SA hammer fired pistols for CC. I have never liked carrying striker-fired pistols. I was watching a YT review of the LEM and the presenter made a statement that actually made the LEM make a lot of sense:

"Double action trigger pulls suck. I don't want to have to pull out my gun and put my first and maybe only shot I will ever shoot in my entire life in any kind of situation via double action trigger pull where I am most likely going to miss.".

First shot trigger pulls are debatably the most critical...especially if ever faced with Jack Wilson's situation. That statement made me realise that the LEM offers the best of both worlds between striker-fired and hammer-fired pistols: consistent and repeatable trigger pulls...and the safety of a long first trigger pull along with the ability to manually block the exposed hammer during holstering.

I like the USP 40
I carried one for a duty weapon

If I was buying, I would get the 9mm though
You can carry it da/as
If it’s about to get hairy, you can reach down and cock the hammer

Yeah, it pissed off the captain when he found out you could do that

It needs to be cleaned regularly, after about two hundred rounds at the range
The slide may not go completely forward when it cycles

Also if you slam the mag in hard, the slide goes forward automatically
HK told our armorer not to worry about it
Perfectly normal

Wow, the HK section is worse than I thought. Well I tried, enjoy the 1990’s.

Removed from thread.
~mod

I am a huge LEM fan.  I have carried and shot  Glocks and 1911's a lot.  Mine now rarely come out of the safe.  I carry pretty close to 24/7, and I think light LEM is just about perfect for a carry gun.  It is the same every time.  Take up the slack, then press, reset, press.  Repeat as needed.  The take up adds a measure of safety over a striker-fired pistol, and there are no safeties or levers to mess with.  I have P30(x2), HK 45, HK45T, HK45C, USP 45(x2), and USP45C all in LEM.  The USPs were converted; the others are factory.  I also have a USP in 9mm that is DA/SA, just so I have one DA/SA gun to practice with.

Like anything else, you do need to train with it.

As far as durability, the late Todd Lewis Green did a famous torture test on the P30v1.  He had over 90k rounds on the pistol before retiring it.

Link

Edited. No need.  ~mod

I like the LEM light over the LEM(std) and much more than the DA/SA in the P2000.

Just be aware, if you buy the parts from HK to do the conversion yourself, be prepared to wait months for the parts.
I've been waiting since 11/26/2019

Edit, maybe they are trying to outdo Geissele?
Been waiting for those since, 11/28/2019

EDIT; I will say GrayGuns shipped my order promptly and was received within a week of ordering the SRS

I hate the LEM trigger. Reminds me of that Walther trigger that travels wayyyyyy back then finally breaks. Sure you get that good reset, but that initial pull sucks.

In my opinion, HK's are to be carried cocked and locked. I've never had an issue sweeping the decocker on accidentally. If you do, you can switch the trigger to Variant 10 ( I think?) which eliminates the decocker altogether.

It depends on what you are trying to achieve.  If you want a single action trigger, all you have to do is swap the detent plate on a DA/SA gun and you have a single action only.  However, the lightest trigger with the shortest travel is not what everyone considers the "best."

You're doing it wrong

HK LEM is "an acquired taste" for me.   I had to spend some significant time and ammo and dryfire to learn to run it well, but now that I have, I don't want an HK with any other trigger system.

LEM light is for me but I know many who love the opposite end of that configuration, that too is a very personal preference.

If I was forced to pick only one handgun it would either be a G19 Gen 5 or a USP/c 9 LEM, I would definitely choose the HK if I were limited to 10 round mags (we could be again some day).

But I find the LEM is a jealous mistress, when I am carrying and practicing with that system, I don't run anything else.  I cannot jump back and forth between a Glock trigger and the LEM and perform at all without a couple of weeks of practice, live and dry fire.

I wouldn't see why it would be any different. Like was posted in this thread, pretty sure that Todd Green test mule was an LEM and it went like 91k

I can only speak for mine, which is like 22k but so far so good. I think I'm getting to the point where some of the springs will need replacement for general maintenance. I did the TRS at ~15k but other than that, nada.

Fuck LEM. 9 years carrying it has me frothing at the mouth waiting for my issued Glock 19 to arrive.

I like HK. I have a USP .40c, P30 9mm, VP9, and HK45c. None are LEM, and all are good pistols in my opinion. The LEM trigger just sucks. It's a compromise trigger to me, and it's difficult to master and difficult to teach. I'm also a firearms instructor at work.

ETA - To be fair, I've never tried shooting the normal weight "light LEM." Perhaps that makes a difference.

I sure hope it does. I don't care for the heavy LEM on our P2000SK.

The CBP contract G19 feels like the trigger is a bit heavier than my other Glocks. Not so much the break as it is the initial pull. I want to try out a non-contract Gen 5 to compare.

The Gen5 Glock trigger feels like a shortened and lightened LEM trigger to me.  Glock finally smoothed out the transition.

It is an easy swap.  All you have to do is change out the trigger return spring to change heave LEM to light.

Yeah  for some of us that is not possible.

I've read that it's simple. I should look up what trigger mods give the best LEM trigger and go from there. My dad's a TV repairman, so I have a pretty sweet set of tools.

All you'll need is a set of needle-nose pliers. I replaced the TRS in my P30L V1 at ~15k. Took like five mins.

I have an HK45CT that I've considered getting an LEM conversion for, but I won't do so until I can test an LEM out. I doubt that I'm missing much because 1) I like that deliberate and stiff DA pull on the first shot because it requires that I be 1000% sure that I want to take that shot and 2) I'm already used to DAO because my EDC is a Kahr PM9 with an oh-so-buttery smooth trigger like a revolver. I'm always open to experiment but I won't be surprised if I still prefer my DA/SA/decock after trying out an LEM version.

And on a slight tangent, I'm disappointed that HK isn't considering making a longslide 10mm.

Had one in both HK45 and 45c.

Hated them, went back to V1, but YMMV. Nothing inherently wrong with it, just didn't feel like getting used to it.

@Fugger
What an odd and confusing comment...please explain why you "hated them".

I tended to vacillate back and forth, but I've settled on using LEM on my HKs...

The nice thing about the USP series, you can easily swap between LEM, DA/SA, DAO, SAO, etc. The P30, you need to start with a DA/SA w/decocker if you want to try LEM and if you don't like it convert it back; if you buy an LEM only P30, you're stuck with it; can't convert it to DA/SA. (There's a slot cut for the decocker required for the DA/SA; that slot is not present on the LEM frames)

When you install LEM you'll figure out quickly it's basically a single action gun, with a "hammer shroud" connected to the trigger bar/trigger return spring. That's the long "DA" pull; pushing back the hammer shroud until it meets the pre-cocked internal hammer, and then you pull through basically a single-action pull to drop the hammer. You can effectively treat it like a single action with a long light pull at first; not entirely dissimilar to the Walther P99's AS trigger system. Main difference being, with the HK, when you take your finger off the trigger the trigger return spring makes the hammer shroud come back down like it's decocking (it isn't, but it makes the admin-types feel safer); the Walther's trigger stays to the rear in it's SA position when you do that.

There's a lot of wiggle room with the HK system, especially with springs. The CBP's P2000 setup is with the factory Heavy LEM variant; heavy hammer spring, heavy firing pin block spring, heavy trigger return spring. Swapping the hammer and firing pin block springs to lighter variants would tremendously help the trigger break while keeping the trigger pull heavy-ish up until the wall.

With the USP, you can use a light trigger return spring, a Match (~11lb) hammer spring, and get a very light long pull to the wall. But, this leaves a very defined SA-break wall, which can be off putting to some people who just pulled through expecting an actual DA pull and break...like a light revolver pull. That hitch at the wall can cause you to throw shots if you're not used to it.

Personally, I prefer the Todd Green variant, which he used on his P30...he went with light springs (hammer, firing pin block) and heavy trigger return spring; this made the DA pull a little heavier but almost totally masks the wall at SA, making the first pull feel like a 6.5-7lbish revolver pull, with a short SA reset and back to the SA wall for subsequent shots. I have my USP 9mm set up that way, and my P30 set up that way as well. I really, really like it that way. While you still have basically a single action cocked gun, it provides you with a longish and heavyish pull to get to the break (which I prefer for safety), but keeps the lightish 5-5.5lb SA break, and the short reset from a SA action.

Light LEM is ok but it's just...too light It's not the break to drop the hammer that is too light, it's the trigger pull to get to that wall. There's a sharp change in weight required to pull the trigger through that wall, and for me, when I try to move fast, I wind up throwing a lot of shots low with a light LEM setup. With the heavier trigger return spring, I don't throw shots low when I try to move at speed.

YMMV with all of this; you might want to stock up on light/medium/heavy trigger return springs, firing pin block springs (the USP by default comes with the light spring IIRC), and hammer springs (factory blue hammer spring is 13lb; pick up a Lazy Wolf 11lb hammer spring to replace it; it's same weight as the factory Match spring, and a lot cheaper...and %100 reliable). Mix and match springs until you come up with a configuration you're comfortable with.  For me, that magic combo is the 11lb hammer spring, the light firing pin block spring, and the heavy trigger return spring.

FWIW, I'm also ok with the standard DA pull, once I swap in the 11lb hammer spring, all the other springs being factory. So, YMMV. If you're not sure you want to try LEM (and since the kit is $100ish, it's a fair fear to have), swap out the hammer spring to an 11lb one first and try shooting DA/SA for a while, just to get used to it. When you're comfortable and proficient with that...give LEM a shot.

@Evil_Ed

Wow! That's exactly the kind of input I was hoping for. Thank you for taking the time to post that EXCELLENT review.

I am really starting to think that the standard V1 is probably the best way to go since I am already comfortable with my Sigs DA/SA triggers.

There's some advantages to LEM; you never have to remember to decock for instance.  Beyond that, it's really not much different than standard DA/SA from a conceptual point. Long first pull (though it's very linear, very smooth, no stacking of _any_ kind), break, short reset, break, repeat. Except at the end, instead of remembering to decock and reholster, you just reholster.

I don't mind DA/SA either, it works really well though the HK version of it is kind of rough and stacky IMO. Again, swapping the trigger return and firing pin block springs to the lightest HK factory ones, and swapping the hammer spring to the HK Match or LazyWolf 11lb spring will improve the DA pull considerably, though with the USP the first two are already the lightest factory options...and, it won't do anything for how stacky/jerky the trigger can get. All it does is make the pull and break a bit more palatable.

There's some great threads on pistol-forum.com about LEM; it's not a gaming trigger, but for duty/defense, and as a people management tool, LEM is great. LEM is a lot easier to deal with administratively than a DA/SA or single action gun with a safety.


Edited - either way the USP is the one to try it out on and decide which is best for you. It's the only one of the whole lineup that can be converted to and from all their trigger variants and arguably the USP trigger (as a whole) is the best of the bunch. It's trigger reset point is the shortest of all HK current pistols; P2k, P30 both have longer trigger resets, and it's noticeable when you compare them. While you can technically convert P2k and P30 DA/SA guns to LEM at home, HK will not warranty that work, and HK will not convert it themselves. If you buy the factory LEM P2k or P30 variants, the only way to convert them to DA/SA with decocker is to mill a slit in their frames...which again HK will not warranty and in all probability notice, if you ever send it to them for work Technically in the EU HK does sell a Variant 0 P30, which is LEM with decocker...but not in the US.

I spent the money on an LEM kit and basically sat on it for years while I fiddled around with it and tried to decide if I like it or not...it took me getting a P30 (after going through a couple of P2ks and at least 4 different USPs) to finally realize that it worked the best for me out of all of HK's trigger systems...and I wish I could get similar 5-7lb light, stackless DA pulls with a 5+-lb SA break out of the rest of my guns.

Why decock?