Quoted: Triburst1,    quit following me around in my posts you loser. Every post I've made you have been there to say something negative about my recommendations. Wether you are doing that on purpose or not it is pretty coincidentalhot If anyone here doesnt think it will do the trick I dare you to stand 10 feet away and take one to the chest.

I'm not sure if birdshot would effectively kill someone but I know it would cause a lot of pain.  A shell to the face would probably imobilize by blinding a person I think.  If you insist on using birdshot, I guess birdshot is better than no shot.

Quoted: [snip] I will continue to use birdshot #4-#6 to defend my home. I will not live with the fact that the round I used over-penetrated and killed on of my familiy members. [snip]

I think we all need to make our personal choices. Something to consider: the birdshot does not stop the BG and they go on to kill you and your family members. Hopefully none of us will ever be faced with the situation of defending ourselves and our family against home invasion.

Quoted: Quoted: [snip] I will continue to use birdshot #4-#6 to defend my home. I will not live with the fact that the round I used over-penetrated and killed on of my familiy members. [snip] I think we all need to make our personal choices. Something to consider: the birdshot does not stop the BG and they go on to kill you and your family members. Hopefully none of us will ever be faced with the situation of defending ourselves and our family against home invasion.

5.7x28 makes a great personal defense cartridge in this situation:
*reduced overpenetration capability
*penetrates thick clothing without any problems
*V-Max expands properly
*JHP tumbles and can fragment

It's like a mini 223 Remington, with 1/2 the recoil, reduced flash, and reduced report!

If anyone has a 5.7x28 weapon system and some ammo and lives near Old Painless, I'm sure he will enjoy doing tests on this controversial cartridge.

Quoted: Quoted: All of you talk about SHTF situations, and what your going to do if attacked in your homes, and how you have AR rifles and multiple handguns for self defense on the nightstand.  Do you all live in the inner city?  Maybe I just don't understand.It's not the odds, it's the stakes. As far as the whole birdshot/shotgun argument, my two cent's worth.   Unless the "attacker" is wearing body armor, birdshot is gonna do just fine.  May not put a six inch hole in their chest, but they are going down.Wrong. Birdshot is TERRIBLE for use against humans. Think logically for a moment. Does it make any sense that a round designed for killing quail would also be effective against a 200 pound human? Buckshot was invented so the traditional smoothbore could be used effectively to hunt deer. Would you consider trying to kill a deer at close range with birdshot?

Enough said:

Seems a .410 will kill you despite what people say………

Police: Man Killed Boy For Walking Across Yard

UPDATED: 6:29 am EST March 21, 2006
BATAVIA, Ohio -- Irritated but calm, Charles Martin called 911 and told the dispatcher that he had finally done something about the neighbor boy -- the one, Martin said into the phone, who had been harassing him for years.

"I just killed a kid," Martin said, according to a recording of the Sunday afternoon call released by police in Union Township, near this city about 20 miles east of Cincinnati.

Martin, 66, is charged with murdering 15-year-old Larry Mugrage, who lived next door to the house where Martin kept a meticulous front lawn with grass that he could sometimes be seen measuring to the inch.

Police said crossing that lawn is what got Mugrage killed. Martin, who lived alone, told officers he'd had several disputes with neighbors about walking on his grass, but hadn't called police since 2003, Union Township police Lt. Scott Gaviglia said.
In the 911 call, Martin, a retired Ford Motor Co. worker with no criminal record, told the dispatcher that Mugrage had been "making the other kids harass me and my place, tearing things up."

"I shot him with a (word deleted) .410 shotgun twice," Martin told the dispatcher.
"You shot him with a shotgun? Where is he?" the dispatcher asked.
"He's laying in the yard," Martin said.

Mugrage, who police said was hit in the chest, was pronounced dead at a hospital.
Martin appeared briefly in Batavia Municipal Court on Monday. A judge denied bond and set another hearing for Thursday.
Martin was being held Tuesday at the Clermont County jail, where officials declined to give him a message seeking comment and said he did not have an attorney of record.

The shooting stunned those in the residential neighborhood and students at Glen Este High School, where Mugrage was a freshman. Grief counselors were at the school Monday.

"I think there's a great deal of shock, for two reasons: because of the age of the victim and just how this occurred, killed over some grass," Gaviglia said.

Neighbors said Martin was quiet, often sitting out in front of his one-story home with its neat lawn, well-trimmed shrubbery and flag pole with U.S. and Navy flags flying. In his fenced backyard, he had several birdhouses and a shed painted like a small red barn with white trim.

Neighbor Joanne Ritchie, 46, said Mugrage was known as "a good kid," and that she always considered Martin to be friendly.
"The older gentleman was always riding his bike and tending to his yard," she said. "He would wave at kids and adults. He always had the perfect yard and he worked in it a lot."

Sean Fritts, 16, who also lived nearby, agreed that Martin's lawn was his pride and joy.
"He was real protective over his yard and mowed it a lot, and sometimes even measured the grass with a yardstick," Fritts said.
Still, Fritts said he wasn't aware of any disputes involving Martin.

"I never had any problems with him, and I don't know that anyone else did," he said.
Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/news/8157594/detail.html

Im sure it has already been said many times but once more wont hurt

use only GLOCK made mags for issues needing reliability, you have the choice assuming you shooting a 9mm of using the G17, 17round mag which should be enough  or you can use a G18 33 round mag, other  then that i wouldnt depened on an aftermarket mag for defense, although you can get a good well made one from time to time so if you so desire buy a few and make sure they work right before depeneding on them

the major issue with the after market ones is most of them jam up and dont feed reliable

Quoted: Im sure it has already been said many times but once more wont hurt use only GLOCK made mags for issues needing reliability, you have the choice assuming you shooting a 9mm of using the G17, 17round mag which should be enough  or you can use a G18 33 round mag, other  then that i wouldnt depened on an aftermarket mag for defense, although you can get a good well made one from time to time so if you so desire buy a few and make sure they work right before depeneding on them the major issue with the after market ones is most of them jam up and dont feed reliable

My major issue with GLOCK GENUINE GLOCK 33rd mags is that they jam up and don't feed reliably. Out of the batch I have, more than half exhibit the same "weak spring" problem. I've been playing phone tag with the Glock rep and got tired of it. I have Wolff springs in a few of the mags and they appear to have fixed the problem. The Wolff springs have the same # of coils but the free length is about 4" longer than stock. It feels like an AK mag when you disassemble it; one slip of the baseplate and insert can result in mag spring in your eye

Quoted: Quoted: Im sure it has already been said many times but once more wont hurt use only GLOCK made mags for issues needing reliability, you have the choice assuming you shooting a 9mm of using the G17, 17round mag which should be enough  or you can use a G18 33 round mag, other  then that i wouldnt depened on an aftermarket mag for defense, although you can get a good well made one from time to time so if you so desire buy a few and make sure they work right before depeneding on them the major issue with the after market ones is most of them jam up and dont feed reliable My major issue with GLOCK GENUINE GLOCK 33rd mags is that they jam up and don't feed reliably. Out of the batch I have, more than half exhibit the same "weak spring" problem. I've been playing phone tag with the Glock rep and got tired of it. I have Wolff springs in a few of the mags and they appear to have fixed the problem. The Wolff springs have the same # of coils but the free length is about 4" longer than stock. It feels like an AK mag when you disassemble it; one slip of the baseplate and insert can result in mag spring in your eye

Where did you get the Wolff springs?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Im sure it has already been said many times but once more wont hurt use only GLOCK made mags for issues needing reliability, you have the choice assuming you shooting a 9mm of using the G17, 17round mag which should be enough  or you can use a G18 33 round mag, other  then that i wouldnt depened on an aftermarket mag for defense, although you can get a good well made one from time to time so if you so desire buy a few and make sure they work right before depeneding on them the major issue with the after market ones is most of them jam up and dont feed reliable My major issue with GLOCK GENUINE GLOCK 33rd mags is that they jam up and don't feed reliably. Out of the batch I have, more than half exhibit the same "weak spring" problem. I've been playing phone tag with the Glock rep and got tired of it. I have Wolff springs in a few of the mags and they appear to have fixed the problem. The Wolff springs have the same # of coils but the free length is about 4" longer than stock. It feels like an AK mag when you disassemble it; one slip of the baseplate and insert can result in mag spring in your eye Where did you get the Wolff springs?

I got them from Wolff directly. Brownells and Midways also carries the 31/33rd mag springs.

so much bullshit in this thread

birdshot for hd is bad, 33rd mag good

The 33 round mags make the gun handle poorly, especially when holstering/drawing, can get in the way when firing over cover, and when they are holstered they bang into stuff when you walk by.  My OEM 33 rounders and my Scherer .40 29 rounders both feed fine, though.  

Quoted: The 33 round mags make the gun handle poorly, especially when holstering/drawing, can get in the way when firing over cover, and when they are holstered they bang into stuff when you walk by.  My OEM 33 rounders and my Scherer .40 29 rounders both feed fine, though.

I don't use them when I holster my weapon, when it's next to me it has the gtl and the 33rd mag in it(just because I can) and my Ar is leaning in the corner

Anyone who still thinks a 33 round mag in a pistol used for home defense is a bad idea should read THIS.

I have a glock 17 but my nightstand gun is a Glock 22 these days...  With a 15-rd mag with a +2 and two reloads handy that gives me 51-rounds of 40 S&W 180-gr Speer Gold Dots....  I would hope that 51-rounds would give me adequate fire power but these days I have a plan "b" that involves an 870 shotgun with 20-rds of #4 buck and a SAR-1 with four loaded 30-rd mags...  And if I can fight my way to the safe, hell will get my visitors soon as if I have gone through that much ammo it is time for the M-16 and a loaded beta mag or two!

But, I am comfortable with the Glock 22 with a 17-rd mag with a pair of reloads...

Now, I am also quite happy with my Glock for the roll because of the add-ons.  I added a Streamlight M3 Led to my Glock 22 as well as an internal lasermax laser and I love the abuility to use the led to see without too much light (press the selector button on back and LED only comes on), the bright weapon light to illuminate and blind (toggle swich for momentary or constant on), and the lasermax to aim without having my head needing to be right behind the light (takedown)...  All of the controls can be done with the off hand so my trigger finger is always ready to shoot if needed.





As many here know, my brother and his family suffered a home invasion and I was ill prepared for what they went through that night.  I would not have been able to react in the seconds that they had as I was a good sheep and I had my guns locked up and I didn't really have a dedicated gun(s) set up with a real good plan on what I would do...

Now, my house is my fortress and those that enter by force will be carried away and perhaps washed off the walls...

I welcome those that are interested in this topic to visit my newest project:

www.home-invasion.com

It is still just getting started but I could use some help keeping track of current home invasions in the news as we all learn from seeing what happens during a home invasion to better allow you to prepare for what may happen to you and your family.

Just practice with a snap cap in the mage to run Failure drills. Practice for a failure, and learn to clear a jam fast , and do not sweatit. Do a google search on immediate action drills.

Quoted: I have a glock 17 but my nightstand gun is a Glock 22 these days...  With a 15-rd mag with a +2 and two reloads handy that gives me 51-rounds of 40 S&W 180-gr Speer Gold Dots....  I would hope that 51-rounds would give me adequate fire power but these days I have a plan "b" that involves an 870 shotgun with 20-rds of #4 buck and a SAR-1 with four loaded 30-rd mags...  And if I can fight my way to the safe, hell will get my visitors soon as if I have gone through that much ammo it is time for the M-16 and a loaded beta mag or two! But, I am comfortable with the Glock 22 with a 17-rd mag with a pair of reloads... Now, I am also quite happy with my Glock for the roll because of the add-ons.  I added a Streamlight M3 Led to my Glock 22 as well as an internal lasermax laser and I love the abuility to use the led to see without too much light (press the selector button on back and LED only comes on), the bright weapon light to illuminate and blind (toggle swich for momentary or constant on), and the lasermax to aim without having my head needing to be right behind the light (takedown)...  All of the controls can be done with the off hand so my trigger finger is always ready to shoot if needed. www.streamlight.com/images/M3led-features.jpg www.topglock.com/images/m3led_rivaling.jpg As many here know, my brother and his family suffered a home invasion and I was ill prepared for what they went through that night.  I would not have been able to react in the seconds that they had as I was a good sheep and I had my guns locked up and I didn't really have a dedicated gun(s) set up with a real good plan on what I would do... Now, my house is my fortress and those that enter by force will be carried away and perhaps washed off the walls... I welcome those that are interested in this topic to visit my newest project: www.home-invasion.com It is still just getting started but I could use some help keeping track of current home invasions in the news as we all learn from seeing what happens during a home invasion to better allow you to prepare for what may happen to you and your family.

Great idea for a site. I just registered.

There does seem to be quite a bit of interest in home defense (HD). Although a site is a good idea, I have found it is often hard to attract members and activity on sites.

Although this site has many specific forums for guns and ammo and other stuff, much of this are parts of the issue of HD. Since there are already so many members and so much activity here, I wonder if a HD forum would be useful here?

Quoted: ... Since there are already so many members and so much activity here, I wonder if a HD forum would be useful here?

IMHO, a dedicated "HD Forum" here would deteriorate quickly into a collection of pissing-contest threads.

Rifle vs. HG vs. SG  (we do this daily here anyway... )

Alarm vs. dogs vs. both/neither

My house is more tactical/defensible than your house!

IOW, HD is a broad enough topic that it is already covered here quite extensively across all forums and doesn't lend itself well to containment in a single forum.  But I may be wrong and alone in thinking this way...

I agree... the survival forum, general topics, and weapons forums each have their roll...  I would never expect that site to be as big as ARFCOM and frankly I wouldn't want all the work that comes with a site with tens of thousands of members!

I am simply trying to build a resource and with less trafic and pissing matches the topics won't get as diluted as they do on a big site!  

Quarterbore,

My comments above weren't in any way aimed at your site (which I haven't yet visited, but will ) but were written entirely regarding establishing a specific "HD Forum" here.  My apologies if that wasn't clear.

These threads crack me up sometimes.  This definitely is a pissing match.

How many of you guys built bunkers for Y2K, and duct taped your doors and windows because you were worried that you'd get gassed or anthraxed in your private home in Anyplace, USA?  

Holy shit.

Are you guys all drug dealers facing brutal opposition from your competition, or maybe high-roller pimps?  Or maybe everyone here lives in Watts or Compton and thinks the riots are still going on outside.  What do you guys do, or where do you live that makes you fearful that roving gangs will lay siege to your home and storm your "castle", intent on raping and pillaging?

I can understand a burglary, but this is getting a little out of hand IMHO.  If anyone needs more than 17rds to defend themselves during a burglary, you're in a world of shit.  You should also choke yourself for not being able to shoot.  For all the people who say "birdshot will just get you killed buy a guy with an ugly surface wound", I have no direct proof for that.  I dare say that it will protect you against 99.9999% of attackers.  Again, that's not backed up by proof, but if you don't kill the attacker with it, I bet they haul ass out...if you say "no" I second the dare for you to take a blast to the chest or face from indoor distances.  Tell us then how you feel, then.  

I know there are plenty of people on this site how have been to war or been involved in LE shootings...how many of the people in this thread have actually been shot at, or shot at anyone.  I hope none.  I haven't been to the sandbox yet, but suffice to say that stateside, people don't generally stick around when the bullets start flying-in MOST cases.  I refuse to say anything else about my last statement.

Quoted: These threads crack me up sometimes.  This definitely is a pissing match. How many of you guys built bunkers for Y2K, and duct taped your doors and windows because you were worried that you'd get gassed or anthraxed in your private home in Anyplace, USA?   Holy shit. Are you guys all drug dealers facing brutal opposition from your competition, or maybe high-roller pimps?  Or maybe everyone here lives in Watts or Compton and thinks the riots are still going on outside.  What do you guys do, or where do you live that makes you fearful that roving gangs will lay siege to your home and storm your "castle", intent on raping and pillaging? I can understand a burglary, but this is getting a little out of hand IMHO.  If anyone needs more than 17rds to defend themselves during a burglary, you're in a world of shit.  You should also choke yourself for not being able to shoot.  For all the people who say "birdshot will just get you killed buy a guy with an ugly surface wound", I have no direct proof for that.  I dare say that it will protect you against 99.9999% of attackers.  Again, that's not backed up by proof, but if you don't kill the attacker with it, I bet they haul ass out...if you say "no" I second the dare for you to take a blast to the chest or face from indoor distances.  Tell us then how you feel, then.   I know there are plenty of people on this site how have been to war or been involved in LE shootings...how many of the people in this thread have actually been shot at, or shot at anyone.  I hope none.  I haven't been to the sandbox yet, but suffice to say that stateside, people don't generally stick around when the bullets start flying-in MOST cases.  I refuse to say anything else about my last statement.

Agreed.  A Glock is good enough.  For me it's a 23.

Quoted: My major issue with GLOCK GENUINE GLOCK 33rd mags is that they jam up and don't feed reliably. Out of the batch I have, more than half exhibit the same "weak spring" problem. I've been playing phone tag with the Glock rep and got tired of it. I have Wolff springs in a few of the mags and they appear to have fixed the problem. The Wolff springs have the same # of coils but the free length is about 4" longer than stock. It feels like an AK mag when you disassemble it; one slip of the baseplate and insert can result in mag spring in your eye

I wonder if you got a bad batch? I have talked to a number of people and no one has had problems with the 33 rd Glock OEM mags. When at the range recently I did have one feeding jam with a 17 rd mag but this was with 30 year old Win. FMJ ammo.

Quoted:
These threads crack me up sometimes.  This definitely is a pissing match.

How many of you guys built bunkers for Y2K, and duct taped your doors and windows because you were worried that you'd get gassed or anthraxed in your private home in Anyplace, USA?  

Holy shit.

Are you guys all drug dealers facing brutal opposition from your competition, or maybe high-roller pimps?  Or maybe everyone here lives in Watts or Compton and thinks the riots are still going on outside.  What do you guys do, or where do you live that makes you fearful that roving gangs will lay siege to your home and storm your "castle", intent on raping and pillaging?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here in San Antonio we seem to be having about one home invasion a week lately.  

Local media doesn't always do a good job covering crime.   In the late 80's we were having an average of 3 drive-by shootings every day, media coverage...0.   Usually the drive-by was only covered if it was in a "good" neighborhood or resulted in a death.   Our now defunct gang unit got it down to 1 or less a day by the 90's.      Home invasions get "reported", if at all, as break-ins, attempted burglary, assaults, when for all practical purposes its a home invasion.   Multiple assailants entering or attempting to enter the home while residents are inside.  

Odds are there are many more crimes in your area than you know about.  

Reason we have home invasions?  Too many sheeple.    It is a sorry thing that it is a fairly safe thing to do, breaking into peoples homes while they are there.   Too few of us are prepared to deal with evil, face to face, with little or no warning.

Expect the best, prepare for the worst.  Like it or not, home invasions happen.  They happen all over the country.   Right now a couple of guys may be looking at your front door and wondering what fun they could have with your wife or daughter.

Just because you aren't paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you.

Am I paranoid?  Yep.  My question is: Am I paranoid ENOUGH?  
Am I prepared?  Yep.  My question is:  Am I prepared ENOUGH?

Quoted: Quoted: These threads crack me up sometimes.  This definitely is a pissing match. How many of you guys built bunkers for Y2K, and duct taped your doors and windows because you were worried that you'd get gassed or anthraxed in your private home in Anyplace, USA?   Holy shit. Are you guys all drug dealers facing brutal opposition from your competition, or maybe high-roller pimps?  Or maybe everyone here lives in Watts or Compton and thinks the riots are still going on outside.  What do you guys do, or where do you live that makes you fearful that roving gangs will lay siege to your home and storm your "castle", intent on raping and pillaging? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here in San Antonio we seem to be having about one home invasion a week lately.   Local media doesn't always do a good job covering crime.   In the late 80's we were having an average of 3 drive-by shootings every day, media coverage...0.   Usually the drive-by was only covered if it was in a "good" neighborhood or resulted in a death.   Our now defunct gang unit got it down to 1 or less a day by the 90's.      Home invasions get "reported", if at all, as break-ins, attempted burglary, assaults, when for all practical purposes its a home invasion.   Multiple assailants entering or attempting to enter the home while residents are inside.   Odds are there are many more crimes in your area than you know about.   Reason we have home invasions?  Too many sheeple.    It is a sorry thing that it is a fairly safe thing to do, breaking into peoples homes while they are there.   Too few of us are prepared to deal with evil, face to face, with little or no warning. Expect the best, prepare for the worst.  Like it or not, home invasions happen.  They happen all over the country.   Right now a couple of guys may be looking at your front door and wondering what fun they could have with your wife or daughter. Just because you aren't paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you. Am I paranoid?  Yep.  My question is: Am I paranoid ENOUGH?   Am I prepared?  Yep.  My question is:  Am I prepared ENOUGH?

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to be a little more clear (and based with facts) when you say "home invasion."  What else does a "home invasion" mean besides burglary.  If you mean something else, go ahead and say it.  

Also, we're not talking about the 80s, or even the 90s; we're talking about 2006, and you're talking about data that's almost as old as I am.  

I am not a fool.  I realize that there is more crime than what the media covers.  I live in college apts.  My friends/neighbors have had motorcycles and cars stolen.  One of my best friends lives in a complex about 1/3 of a mile down the street and her best friend was attacked and murdered last semester (right outside her building)-people were actually talking about the situation in the NC Hometown forum at the time.  

I know there is crime around me.  I'm not paranoid,however.  I'm careful, though.  On my bedstand there is always (unless I'm wearing it) a G17 loaded with Hollow points and a Surefire.  Interestingly enough, I don't even load my 17rd mags all the way, the one I keep loaded has 10rds in it.  When we have girls over late at night, we don't let them walk to or from their cars alone.  If I hear a suspicious sound outside (such as gunshots, which happen much more often than is reported) I take a peak to make sure everything is cool at my place and my neighbors.  My friends and I have been known to allegedly beat up guys we see taking (or trying to take) advantage of girls who can't take care of themselves for various reasons.  Yeah, crime happens, and I feel it's my responsibility to help take care of myself and the people around me whenever possible; I don't feel the need to have vast stores of ammo at my disposal to ward of bands of thugs.

Hopefully what I'm getting at is a little clearer now.  Prepared and alert=good.  I don't see the point in being paranoid, though, and there is a difference, IMHO.  YMMV-obviously.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: These threads crack me up sometimes.  This definitely is a pissing match. How many of you guys built bunkers for Y2K, and duct taped your doors and windows because you were worried that you'd get gassed or anthraxed in your private home in Anyplace, USA?   Holy shit. Are you guys all drug dealers facing brutal opposition from your competition, or maybe high-roller pimps?  Or maybe everyone here lives in Watts or Compton and thinks the riots are still going on outside.  What do you guys do, or where do you live that makes you fearful that roving gangs will lay siege to your home and storm your "castle", intent on raping and pillaging? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here in San Antonio we seem to be having about one home invasion a week lately.   Local media doesn't always do a good job covering crime.   In the late 80's we were having an average of 3 drive-by shootings every day, media coverage...0.   Usually the drive-by was only covered if it was in a "good" neighborhood or resulted in a death.   Our now defunct gang unit got it down to 1 or less a day by the 90's.      Home invasions get "reported", if at all, as break-ins, attempted burglary, assaults, when for all practical purposes its a home invasion.   Multiple assailants entering or attempting to enter the home while residents are inside.   Odds are there are many more crimes in your area than you know about.   Reason we have home invasions?  Too many sheeple.    It is a sorry thing that it is a fairly safe thing to do, breaking into peoples homes while they are there.   Too few of us are prepared to deal with evil, face to face, with little or no warning. Expect the best, prepare for the worst.  Like it or not, home invasions happen.  They happen all over the country.   Right now a couple of guys may be looking at your front door and wondering what fun they could have with your wife or daughter. Just because you aren't paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you. Am I paranoid?  Yep.  My question is: Am I paranoid ENOUGH?   Am I prepared?  Yep.  My question is:  Am I prepared ENOUGH? I'm sorry, but you're going to have to be a little more clear (and based with facts) when you say "home invasion."  What else does a "home invasion" mean besides burglaryit's when they kick in your door while your home, most of the time with 2 or three people .  If you mean something else, go ahead and say it.   Also, we're not talking about the 80s, or even the 90s; we're talking about 2006,it happens alot more than you believe, in my area all the time and you're talking about data that's almost as old as I am.   I am not a fool.  I realize that there is more crime than what the media covers.  I live in college apts.  My friends/neighbors have had motorcycles and cars stolen.  One of my best friends lives in a complex about 1/3 of a mile down the street and her best friend was attacked and murdered last semester (right outside her building)-people were actually talking about the situation in the NC Hometown forum at the time.   I know there is crime around me.  I'm not paranoid,however.  I'm careful, though.  On my bedstand there is always (unless I'm wearing it) a G17 loaded with Hollow points and a Surefire.  Interestingly enough, I don't even load my 17rd mags all the way, the one I keep loaded has 10rds in it.  When we have girls over late at night, we don't let them walk to or from their cars alone.  If I hear a suspicious sound outside (such as gunshots, which happen much more often than is reported) I take a peak to make sure everything is cool at my place and my neighbors.  My friends and I have been known to allegedly beat up guys we see taking (or trying to take) advantage of girls who can't take care of themselves for various reasons.  Yeah, crime happens, and I feel it's my responsibility to help take care of myself and the people around me whenever possible; I don't feel the need to have vast stores of ammo at my disposal to ward of bands of thugs. and your a fool if you think 10 rounds will be enouph when a kick door happens to you Hopefully what I'm getting at is a little clearer now.  Prepared and alert=good.  I don't see the point in being paranoid, though, and there is a difference, IMHO.  YMMV-obviously.

Quoted: Triburst1,    quit following me around in my posts you loser. Every post I've made you have been there to say something negative about my recommendations. Wether you are doing that on purpose or not it is pretty coincidental I will continue to use birdshot #4-#6 to defend my home. I will not live with the fact that the round I used over-penetrated and killed on of my familiy members. If anyone here doesnt think it will do the trick I dare you to stand 10 feet away and take one to the chest.

Dude, get a clue, do some research instead of parroting back what your highschool buddies made up after reading all of thaose cool gun magazines...

Also, that last line is perilously close to a threat.  Threats are bad.  threats are a good way to get booted off here... hmmm, come to think of it, threaten me a few times, maybe your blather will become a self-resolving problem...


Back on topic, I have a couple of the Scheerer 33's and they aren't reliable enough to even take out of the safe.  OTOH, most people can execute a reload in less time than it takes to clear a bad jam....

Quoted: Back on topic, I have a couple of the Scheerer 33's and they aren't reliable enough to even take out of the safe.  OTOH, most people can execute a reload in less time than it takes to clear a bad jam....

Fortunately, I have never been in a HD situation. I have heard that most self-defense situations occur at less than 5 feet, use less than 5 rds, and last less than 5 seconds. I think a HD situation is different especially with a gang but I think things happen fast. It will be over in seconds, not minutes. I doubt if one would have time to change mags. I do not really know. I suspect it is something like the show "The Shield" or others when LE enters a dangerous home except in reverse. I have the Glock OEM 33 rd mags and everyone has not had problems with them except for 1 person on this thread.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: These threads crack me up sometimes.  This definitely is a pissing match. How many of you guys built bunkers for Y2K, and duct taped your doors and windows because you were worried that you'd get gassed or anthraxed in your private home in Anyplace, USA?   Holy shit. Are you guys all drug dealers facing brutal opposition from your competition, or maybe high-roller pimps?  Or maybe everyone here lives in Watts or Compton and thinks the riots are still going on outside.  What do you guys do, or where do you live that makes you fearful that roving gangs will lay siege to your home and storm your "castle", intent on raping and pillaging? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here in San Antonio we seem to be having about one home invasion a week lately.   Local media doesn't always do a good job covering crime.   In the late 80's we were having an average of 3 drive-by shootings every day, media coverage...0.   Usually the drive-by was only covered if it was in a "good" neighborhood or resulted in a death.   Our now defunct gang unit got it down to 1 or less a day by the 90's.      Home invasions get "reported", if at all, as break-ins, attempted burglary, assaults, when for all practical purposes its a home invasion.   Multiple assailants entering or attempting to enter the home while residents are inside.   Odds are there are many more crimes in your area than you know about.   Reason we have home invasions?  Too many sheeple.    It is a sorry thing that it is a fairly safe thing to do, breaking into peoples homes while they are there.   Too few of us are prepared to deal with evil, face to face, with little or no warning. Expect the best, prepare for the worst.  Like it or not, home invasions happen.  They happen all over the country.   Right now a couple of guys may be looking at your front door and wondering what fun they could have with your wife or daughter. Just because you aren't paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you. Am I paranoid?  Yep.  My question is: Am I paranoid ENOUGH?   Am I prepared?  Yep.  My question is:  Am I prepared ENOUGH? I'm sorry, but you're going to have to be a little more clear (and based with facts) when you say "home invasion."  What else does a "home invasion" mean besides burglaryit's when they kick in your door while your home, most of the time with 2 or three people .  If you mean something else, go ahead and say it.   Also, we're not talking about the 80s, or even the 90s; we're talking about 2006,it happens alot more than you believe, in my area all the time and you're talking about data that's almost as old as I am.   I am not a fool.  I realize that there is more crime than what the media covers.  I live in college apts.  My friends/neighbors have had motorcycles and cars stolen.  One of my best friends lives in a complex about 1/3 of a mile down the street and her best friend was attacked and murdered last semester (right outside her building)-people were actually talking about the situation in the NC Hometown forum at the time.   I know there is crime around me.  I'm not paranoid,however.  I'm careful, though.  On my bedstand there is always (unless I'm wearing it) a G17 loaded with Hollow points and a Surefire.  Interestingly enough, I don't even load my 17rd mags all the way, the one I keep loaded has 10rds in it.  When we have girls over late at night, we don't let them walk to or from their cars alone.  If I hear a suspicious sound outside (such as gunshots, which happen much more often than is reported) I take a peak to make sure everything is cool at my place and my neighbors.  My friends and I have been known to allegedly beat up guys we see taking (or trying to take) advantage of girls who can't take care of themselves for various reasons.  Yeah, crime happens, and I feel it's my responsibility to help take care of myself and the people around me whenever possible; I don't feel the need to have vast stores of ammo at my disposal to ward of bands of thugs. and your a fool if you think 10 rounds will be enouph when a kick door happens to you Hopefully what I'm getting at is a little clearer now.  Prepared and alert=good.  I don't see the point in being paranoid, though, and there is a difference, IMHO.  YMMV-obviously.

I take umbrage to you calling me a fool.  You have no knowledge of my personal experiences.  Based on my experiences I have deemed 10rds to be enough for my uses.  I hope for your sake that you've never been involved in anything close to what you describe.  However, unless you have, I think it is safe to say that you have no frame of reference, on the topic, aside from what you hear and read.  As I said before, I do not feel the need to discuss in open forum, my own personal experiences, but I do make my own judgments from them.

THE GLOCK 18 33 rd mags are 110% fine in my glock 19 and in my kel tec sub 2000

Quoted: The GLOCK OEM 31rd mag with the +2 extension is just as reliable as the standard 17rd mags. If you are really contemplating on using this for home defense I HIGHLY suggest you talk to an attorney FIRST. My cousin is an attorney and a public defender at that. He would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33rd. magazine in a handgun. Overkill was not the word he used to describe using it....I think he said something like "only a crazed lunatic looking for a fight would use a magazine like that". Best bet would be to keep one mag in the gun and another close at hand. I would highly suggest using the +2 glock baseplates on your glock.  The total package would give you 38 rounds at your finger tips. I have 2 of the 33rd. mags but only bring them out when I am in the desert and want to impress my buddies.

Are you for real?  

Quoted: My cousin is an attorney and a public defender at that. He would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33rd. magazine in a handgun. Overkill was not the word he used to describe using it....I think he said something like "only a crazed lunatic looking for a fight would use a magazine like that".

It sounds like your cousin is one of the lawyers that give lawyers a bad name. That he would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33 rd mag says it all. In a home invasion situation when the resident is afraid for their life a 30 rd mag is not unreasonable. It does not matter if it is in a pistol or a rifle. It sounds like your cousin should be more concerned about the person whose home is being invaded than the criminals doing it. If this is the way lawyers think then we need to revise our legal system and lawyers like this should have their license revoked.

I use 33 rd mags in a pistol for home defense and am not a "crazed lunatic" but a respected member of my community. If your cousin is calling me a "crazed lunatic" he/she might have some legal liability of their own.

Quoted: My cousin is an attorney and a public defender at that. He would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33rd. magazine in a handgun. Overkill was not the word he used to describe using it....I think he said something like "only a crazed lunatic looking for a fight would use a magazine like that".

Ask him to provide a single precedent for you.  I'll look it up myself and report back.  

I my experience people who make claims such as your cousin are simply speaking about their own personal desires to hurt gun owners.  Fortunately for us (gun owners) most juries and appeals court judges are not total morons.

Quoted: My cousin is an attorney and a public defender at that. He would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33rd. magazine in a handgun. Overkill was not the word he used to describe using it....I think he said something like "only a crazed lunatic looking for a fight would use a magazine like that".

Are not the public defender lawyers the ones at the bottom of the barrel? They cannot get a good job in a good firm so they get a job with the government defending the BGs? Perhaps your "cousin" would like to make a signed public statement here including his full real name and exactly where he works? This could then be reported to State officials.

Quoted: Quoted: My cousin is an attorney and a public defender at that. He would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33rd. magazine in a handgun. Overkill was not the word he used to describe using it....I think he said something like "only a crazed lunatic looking for a fight would use a magazine like that". Are not the public defender lawyers the ones at the bottom of the barrel? They cannot get a good job in a good firm so they get a job with the government defending the BGs? Perhaps your "cousin" would like to make a signed public statement here including his full real name and exactly where he works? This could then be reported to State officials.

Yes, that is why certain demographics are alegedly "misrepresented" in the prison system...because they can't afford good legal councel and they get dumped with PUBLIC DEFENDERS-the bottom of  the barrel.  They are the REMFs of the legal world.

Quoted: I take umbrage to you calling me a fool ok, I'm sry You have no knowledge of my personal experiences.  Based on my experiences I have deemed 10rds to be enough for my uses.  I hope for your sake that you've never been involved in anything close to what you describe.I have  However, unless you have, I think it is safe to say that you have no frame of reference, on the topic, aside from what you hear and read.  As I said before, I do not feel the need to discuss in open forum, my own personal experiencesI really don't blame you, but I do make my own judgments from them.I don't really care what you use to defend yourself, I'm just happy you are going to defend yourself

Quoted: Aside from using the 33rd in a Mech-tech conversion upper, they have no practical use. In a HD situation, they sure as hell would be a liability just by the length of them. I'm sure they're kool for range use but I wouldn't want to risk my life by having a broomstick sticking out of the bottom of my handgun in a gunfight.

I use them in my kel tec sub rifle for home gun.

Gimme-A-Carbine

If you don't know your history (the old crime data) you can't really know what has been going on, and can't make judgements on what the trends will be in the future.

When I say paranoid I mean willing to imagine the worst.  I have found myself caught in the trap of complacency, not willing to see a bad situation about to happen until it unfolds.    I strive to be more situationally aware, expand my visual horizon, and be more willing to see bad outcomes.  Not to expect them, but be prepared for them.

For example:  My wife and I returned home late one night.  A car turned on our street and stopped across the street in front of our house.  I could make out multiple occupants.   While my wife exited the car and moved to our house, I took up a position behind the engine block of our SUV and place  my hand on my pistol.   The car pulled into our driveway, turned around and left.

99% of the population would of thought they were lost and looking for a place to turn around, and they would PROBABLY have  been right.

I thought, "Thats damn odd", when the car stayed in position for several seconds I  went from my general level of observation to a hightened state of alert, moved and prepared for the worst.

Were they lost?  Most likely.  Were they looking for someone to rob?  Unlikely.  But possible.  I was willing to see the unlikely nasty possibility and prepare for it.

When I lived in a free state, I had an OEM 33rd and it fed great.  I kept it on hand for SHTF/HD use but not in the gun.   I even bought a horizontal shoulder holster for my first CCW rig with the thought that I could have the 33rd. in the 19 and two flush-fits on the off-side for maximum badassedness.  When I scrapped the rambo rig for an IWB, the 33 usually came along still but in my messenger bag with the other spares.   I figured that a high-cap could go a long way in hepling me get out of a SHTF scenario and at the bare minimum it was a great way to carry extra ammo rattle-free.

I wanted to love it, but for me, the 33rd really didn't do it.   I felt that the weight/balance change over the course of emptying the magazine to be difficult to get used to.

Quoted: THE GLOCK 18 33 rd mags are 110% fine in my glock 19 and in my kel tec sub 2000

Same here.

A lot of people have told me that the 33rd mag makes the gun handle weird etc... but personally I think its fine. When properly holding the pistol in the firing position, nothing really sticks out enough to affect shooting. You'll just stand there firing longer than everyone else at the pistol range