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Posted: 9/29/2020 1:54:38 PM EDT
[#1]
just wanted to see what some of you guys have to say about this to help clear this up for me.
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Posted: 9/29/2020 2:05:49 PM EDT
[#2]
If it started life as a rifle, you're boned. The rule to remember is first a rifle, always a rifle.
If it had started life as a pistol, was converted to an SBR and then you wanted to convert it back, there's an argument for that; as it stands, it can never legally be a pistol. |
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Posted: 9/29/2020 2:18:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Once a rifle always a rifle.
Pistol to rifle or SBR may revert to pistol. |
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Posted: 9/29/2020 2:29:02 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once a rifle always a rifle. Pistol to rifle or SBR may revert to pistol. Not to nitpick, but "once a rifle" is incorrect--as the rest of your post illustrates. "Once a rifle" came from a time prior to the TC case that established going from a pistol to a rifle and back was acceptable. The correct phrase would be "First a rifle..." |
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Posted: 9/29/2020 2:32:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: it started life as an SBR. Stuck in rifle config. if its first configuratio was a pistol it could go back and forth. |
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Posted: 9/30/2020 6:44:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not to nitpick, but "once a rifle" is incorrect--as the rest of your post illustrates. "Once a rifle" came from a time prior to the TC case that established going from a pistol to a rifle and back was acceptable. The correct phrase would be "First a rifle..." Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Once a rifle always a rifle. Pistol to rifle or SBR may revert to pistol. Not to nitpick, but "once a rifle" is incorrect--as the rest of your post illustrates. "Once a rifle" came from a time prior to the TC case that established going from a pistol to a rifle and back was acceptable. The correct phrase would be "First a rifle..."  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/30/2020 6:57:52 PM EDT
[#7]
If it genuinely was never assembled as a Title 1 rifle, but first assembled as an SBR you should be ok. Despite the name an SBR is not a "rifle", as the clause in question of the definition of an SBR is obviously referring to a Title 1 Rifle (long gun). AFAIK there is no case law. It's a whole lot easier to just buy a new lower and not worry about it though. Anyone with sense just assembles all lowers as pistols first then it's a non issue.
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Posted: 9/30/2020 8:13:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it genuinely was never assembled as a Title 1 rifle, but first assembled as an SBR you should be ok. Despite the name an SBR is not a "rifle", as the clause in question of the definition of an SBR is obviously referring to a Title 1 Rifle (long gun). AFAIK there is no case law. It's a whole lot easier to just buy a new lower and not worry about it though. Anyone with sense just assembles all lowers as pistols first then it's a non issue. SBR is a subset of the class rifle, which is a subset of the class firearm. |
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Posted: 9/30/2020 9:16:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SBR is a subset of the class rifle, which is a subset of the class firearm. No it's not. "Short Barreled Rifle" has a specific, defined set of qualities. "Rifle" has a specific, defined set of qualities. They are distinct and separate. SBR is regulated under the NFA. Rifle is a long gun which is unregulated by the NFA. The regulation in question defines an SBR as something with particular qualities that is "made from a Rifle". This would be circular logic if an SBR is a Rifle. If you check the "Other" box on a 4473, is that then an "Any Other Firearm"? I mean, it says "other", right? It's a firearm, right? |
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Posted: 9/30/2020 9:24:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it's not. "Short Barreled Rifle" has a specific, defined set of qualities. "Rifle" has a specific, defined set of qualities. They are distinct and separate. SBR is regulated under the NFA. Rifle is a long gun which is unregulated by the NFA. The regulation in question defines an SBR as something with particular qualities that is "made from a Rifle". This would be circular logic if an SBR is a Rifle. If you check the "Other" box on a 4473, is that then an "Any Other Firearm"? I mean, it says "other", right? It's a firearm, right? Um OK USC 921: (8)The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle ... Perhaps that is why the "R" in SBR stands for .... wait for it ... Rifle. |
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Posted: 9/30/2020 10:42:11 PM EDT
[#11]
Just curious, how are you supposed to remember what was on the 4473 since everything is retained by the FFL? I've never been given a copy for any rifles, handguns, or lowers that I've purchased.
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Posted: 10/1/2020 11:34:33 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just curious, how are you supposed to remember what was on the 4473 since everything is retained by the FFL? I've never been given a copy for any rifles, handguns, or lowers that I've purchased. If the firearm transferred to you was a handgun, the dealer recorded handgun. If the firearm transferred to you was a long gun, the dealer recorded long gun. If the firearm transferred to you was an other firearm, the dealer recorded other firearm. If he made an error and recorded a handgun as a long gun or AR lower as a handgun.......that's his problem. It doesn't change what the firearm is/was. You've never been given a copy because the 4473 is the dealers record of the transaction. Your record of the transaction is whatever receipt or bill of sale the seller gave you. |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 11:58:44 AM EDT
[#13]
Just curious - I have always understood that a Stripped / Bare AR Receiver is transferred as "Other" (since it was neither a Rifle or a AR Handgun at time of sale.)
If you wanted to build it as a Pistol, how could you PROVE it was built as a Handgun (First) so as to give you the option to build & use it as a AR handgun using a SBA3 Brace as a Handgun. I'd like to do this with a few lowers before the election. I would see it as giving flexibility if you build an AR stripped AR lower FIRST as a AR "Handgun", you then have the option to run it as a AR Handgun with a Brace, but also the option later to 'convert' it to a Rifle (with 16" barrel & Stock) or Class III SBR with registration & a stock later if Braces get the Ban Hammer like the Bump-Stocks did? Thanks for any Clarifications about how to PROVE a AR Lower started off as a "Handgun" and if my though process is on track or off. @DogtownTom @RenegadeX |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 12:41:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just curious - I have always understood that a Stripped / Bare AR Receiver is transferred as "Other" (since it was neither a Rifle or a AR Handgun at time of sale.) If you wanted to build it as a Pistol, how could you PROVE it was built as a Handgun (First) so as to give you the option to build & use it as a AR handgun using a SBA3 Brace as a Handgun. I'd like to do this with a few lowers before the election. I would see it as giving flexibility if you build an AR stripped AR lower FIRST as a AR "Handgun", you then have the option to run it as a AR Handgun with a Brace, but also the option later to 'convert' it to a Rifle (with 16" barrel & Stock) or Class III SBR with registration & a stock later if Braces get the Ban Hammer like the Bump-Stocks did? Thanks for any Clarifications about how to PROVE a AR Lower started off as a "Handgun" and if my though process is on track or off. @DogtownTom @RenegadeX Technically, the ATF has to prove you built it first as a rifle, you don't have to prove anything. In reality, poor man's copyright might be an option. Take a picture of it as a pistol, then email that to yourself. Make sure the email address you use is one that will stay on the server. If there is an issue, the date/time stamp of the email with photo on the server will show when it was built as a pistol. Ideally, you'd do this right after obtaining the receiver so there is no window when you could have secretly built it as a rifle first. PS. I am not a lawyer and it has been years since I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 5:23:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Technically, the ATF has to prove you built it first as a rifle, you don't have to prove anything. Quote HistoryQuoted: Technically, the ATF has to prove you built it first as a rifle, you don't have to prove anything. If ATF is challenging/accusing/filing charges/kicking down your door....it isn't because you cant prove what your AR pistol started life as. In reality, poor man's copyright might be an option. Take a picture of it as a pistol, then email that to yourself. Make sure the email address you use is one that will stay on the server. If there is an issue, the date/time stamp of the email with photo on the server will show when it was built as a pistol. Ideally, you'd do this right after obtaining the receiver so there is no window when you could have secretly built it as a rifle first. Seriously, a lot of trouble for absolutely no reason. It really doesn't prove that the lower wasn't assembled as a rifle BEFORE you assembled as a pistol and took the photo. Time stamps? Servers? ATF ain't got time for that. |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 5:30:39 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you wanted to build it as a Pistol, how could you PROVE it was built as a Handgun (First) so as to give you the option to build & use it as a AR handgun using a SBA3 Brace as a Handgun. I'd like to do this with a few lowers before the election. You cant, unless you had Chain of Custody since it was made on the MFG floor. I would be shocked if any otherwise law abiding person has ever been charged, even if they used a know rifle like a 6920. I am not even sure what they would charge you with. Imagine trying to explain to a jury two identical guns but one is legal and one is not because it had a stock on it for 1 picosecond, while the other had a brace. Heck jurors would not even see a difference in stock vs brace. It is an unwinnable case and would never be pursued. |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 6:34:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ..... Imagine trying to explain to a jury two identical guns but one is legal and one is not because it had a stock on it for 1 picosecond, while the other had a brace. Heck jurors would not even see a difference in stock vs brace. It is an unwinnable case and would never be pursued. Exactly. I think that exact thought ran through the heads at the USSC back in 1992. |
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Posted: 10/4/2020 9:21:39 PM EDT
[#18]
I would not want to be arguing with a policeman that my 'AR pistol'
was allowed under the Virginia Concealed Handgun permit. |
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Posted: 10/8/2020 3:15:13 PM EDT
[#19]
It's f@cking ridiculous. The whole concept is a joke. The thought that one could be charged after buying a lower second hand just boggles my mind.
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Posted: 11/18/2020 5:39:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Technically, the ATF has to prove you built it first as a rifle, you don't have to prove anything. In reality, poor man's copyright might be an option. Take a picture of it as a pistol, then email that to yourself. Make sure the email address you use is one that will stay on the server. If there is an issue, the date/time stamp of the email with photo on the server will show when it was built as a pistol. Ideally, you'd do this right after obtaining the receiver so there is no window when you could have secretly built it as a rifle first. PS. I am not a lawyer and it has been years since I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. Print the picture and use USPS so you have a postmark on the envelope. We had a LOT of SW written using an older version of Excel. We had a computer with no internet connection that ran about 15 years behind. We loaded the old version of Excel, an al old operating system. No way to "Call home to mama" and find an actual date. |
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Posted: 11/18/2020 8:27:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's f@cking ridiculous. The whole concept is a joke. The thought that one could be charged after buying a lower second hand just boggles my mind. This! |
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