These are ghost guns!

Foxtrot - Juliet - Bravo

The ATF is a legislative arm now?

It depends. It could require a Form 1. If it is a firearm non NFA silencer then no serial number until you sell it to the FFL. They still cannot make you serialize a SMF. (self made firearm) however, that 80% block of aluminum is going to get a serial number and become a firearm.

When the rule is final, it will be a firearm by definition.  You might want to finish it. Then there is no question that it is a self made firearm. You still do not have to serialize it unless you pawn it, have a gunsmith work on it, or sell it to someone else. Remember this is my take on a quick read tonight.

They want to stop polymer 80 and 80% receivers.  It's all politics and feel good, win win for the dems.

There is no requirement to serialize it unless you take it to a gunsmith for work, pawn it, or sell it to another. It's good. If it was mine, I would stamp it with roman numerals. XXYYVVIIIX

No, that is not what it says. 80% receivers are going to end. But, this will give them the power to say what is and is not a receiver/frame based on the amount to completion. Something that was never in the GCA. Changing the wording of the GCA is going to take legislation. It appears to be more than administrative determination. There is no Chevron defense here.

I think that is the intent. We will have to wait and see the out come.

I thought it was always that way. But it appears that pawn shops and gun shops have asked for guidance. Serializing a firearm is a manufactures job, so they are going to allow FFLs to do that. However, I think that 80% receivers will be defined as frame/receiver. I also think this is going to take legislation to make all the changes in the GCA that they want. We shall see.

It had been hours since I read it, and a lot has happened since then.  But it looked like they wanted to require serialization and a 4473 on anything that was intended to become a firearm.

You got it.  But I not lawyer.

That would be great.  I'd 3D print up a bunch of disposable monocores for my sparrow if I could just throw them away after use instead of cleaning them. Assuming it's made legal, of course.

What about folks that bought those glock factory upper kits?  The barrel and slide are serialized.  If you have to serialize a homemade lower, do you have to match the barrel and slide you bought?

We're really missing a great opportunity to have URLs like this read "leaked-aft-document" and shit.   I am disappointed.

Uh, no this would be a rule change, should they stuff it in the pipeline for the required comment period... no legislature involved.




I'm reading the doc right now.  They're playing fucky games here.  

What you're forgetting is that a receiver is a firearm in and of itself, even if it doesn't have parts installed and isn't capable of being fired.   What the doc is doing is stating that if it's readily convertible, or designed to be converted, it is a firearm.  Instead of 81% receivers being firearms, now it's some lesser number that incorporates virtually everything we now consider to be an 80% currently.  

The items they discuss being possessed in conjunction with an item to make it "readily convertible" are not slides, barrels, or small parts - it's jigs, machine tools, instructions, and even the existence of marketing indicating the purpose of the item.  (ETA - much later in the doc they are 110% clear that "kits" that only allow one to make a receiver are firearms)   I think their wording in some parts may be deceptive and built around using the previous enforcement actions to create exactly this kind of confusion about full kits being what is covered.

There is also explanation about parts that are serialized and contain - or can contain with modification, or are intended to be modified to contain - any type of fire control component being presumed to be receivers and thus firearms absent specific contrary determinations.

They're also, in clarifying which parts are or are not receivers, allowing for situations where multiple parts are each receivers in and of themselves, and also leaving themselves a big 'ole blank check to do stupid stuff like reclassify AR uppers as receivers even if they're claiming they won't.   Because we all know that promise isn't worth anything.

Bonus points to whoever put this doc together for citing sensational, nonsensical clownshoes media reports as sources in footnotes.    

I also really like how they put great effort into finding a nice way to explain that their "readily convertible" definition is centered around what idiots and poor people are capable of doing; basically, if it's not marketed and sold to be made into a firearm, and you don't possess instructions to do so or tools specifically made to do so, and the process to convert the item you have requires expensive, unsafe, or esoteric tools, or has a high risk of failure... then it's not readily convertible.    But they effectively nuke all items marketed as receiver blanks from 0% and up with other language.

Also note that this totally torpedoes most commercially available form 1 can bodies... although their "receiver clarification" rule change arguably should un-restrict a bunch of other unfinished can parts.

ETA:  they also got in some really sneaky backdoor registration on home builds that later get sold, even better than regular firearm sales.  And on trophy shop engraving of unfinished receivers (which are now readily convertible and therefore firearms anyways...) - doing that commercially will make you a gunsmith now and require an FFL.   Which is hilarious because they explain this change as being intended to make engraving services more readily available.

Life
Finds
A
Way


I suspect millions of fgc-9s will be printed in the next decade

This also requires FFLs, including type 03/C&R holders, to retain records indefinitely (page 59):

“6.  Record Retention
Currently, licensees other than manufacturers and importers do not have to store their ATF Forms 4473 or A&D records beyond 20 years. This proposed rule would require licensed dealers and collectors to store their Forms 4473 or A&D records indefinitely”

Possibly , but how many sat at home and didn't vote for Trump because of that

From reading it, and filtering out the nasty, threatening regulatory language, the only changes I foresee in the industry are a pivot of how non-firearms are sold (no more one-stop-shops for kits/receivers) and how they are marketed (these are for display/repair sections only).   I may be wearing rose-colored glasses, however.

Ultimately, we will have to see exactly what the big players are going to do adapt on day 1, and the rest of the industry will follow.

Block of metal plus milling machine equals constructive intent.  Hide your dogs.

It is kind of obvious to me it is worded to allow more than one part require restriction and serial numbers as they determine the need. Does anyone think that will not lead to serial numbers on bolts, uppers, or barrels because of three D printing?

So every machine shop in the country will now require a FFL then.

They specifically, in reference to just regular title 1 arms, draw a line between "dude can make a rifle because they're a machinist with a 100k shop" and "Jimbob and Daquan can build it in a day in their garage".

Unfortunately, if they apply their standards here for "readily convertible = effectively converted" using instructions/jigs/tools and marketing intent, I could see that jamming up a lot of people with certain lowers and drill bit sizes combined with literature, novelty products, jigs, etc., on the NFA front.    In addition to the form 1 implications for cans.

Then you have the grey area of people like me....don’t own a machine shop but have a mill and lathe in the garage. Guess I better hide my dogs

Based on the letter of the proposed law, uppers would not be serialized. Split or modular frames or receivers would have both parts serialized, "unless one or more specific part(s) of the weapon is or has previously been determined by the
Director to be the frame or receiver." I do not see anything in the proposal that would affect barrels being serialized. It changes the definition of a receiver so that it only needs some of the fire control bits, bolt, firing pin, or barrel, but the receiver still needs those components, which a barrel does not. There is a section regarding markings on barrels, but this is stated to be only on new designs.

The bolt is not as clear. It does contain the firing pin, so might be, but the bolt is a part that determines the receiver, which would suggest that it itself cannot be a receiver. There is a section that explicitly declares that the receiver is: "(v) AR-15-type, and Beretta AR-70-type firearms: the lower part of the weapon that provides housing for the trigger mechanism and hammer."

Of course, letter of the law and how it is applied are two different things. But "how will they twist this" is a game without end, so almost anything could be true under that standard.

There is a lot of truth in this.  All personal disarmament laws are intended to be justification for next, more restrictive, personal disarmament law.

This is a feature, not a bug.  When your goal is to destroy a nation, in part by bankrupting the government, then anything you can do to add cost and delay to government procurement is a plus.

I used to look at crazy laws and regulations proposed by socialists and I thought "They can't be that stupid."  Now, I realize that they are not that stupid.  I just misunderstood their goals.  When you understand their goals, then all their proposals start to make sense.  This is another way of putting financial stress on the system, in addition to attempting to disarm the population.  It is win-win when you hate America.

The purpose of adding more cost to government procurement is to be able to divert more money to the people who run government procurement and the owners of the companies that hold the contracts.

Although it shouldn't be on gun owners to prove we are legal to buy/build/use a 80% receiver, I kinda understand why they are going after them.  I follow shady cities/towns police department's facebook pages to see what happened the night before and seems like for awhile there full auto glocks were found everyday in Fresno CA. "Bulldog gang member" and they would show a hi point or a 80% glock type home suit pistol with the full auto kit.  As soon as I seen 3 of them I knew they would go after the kits somehow.  I don't agree with it, but I seen the writing on the wall.  LE in that state have a direct conduit to anti 2nd people and they stick together on whatever it is they come up with and won't stop until they get what they want.  The right doesn't seem to get together on anything.  Its all back biting, and hair pulling from sun up to sun down.

This. And how are they going to know?

There are over 100 million adult men in this country. It’s going to be tough going door to door checking on illegal paperweights.

Sounds like that's were a lot of people are at. Blueprints and CNC equipment, or whatever.

I'll follow whatever laws, but I can't blame people for wanting to do it.

Going through life looking over my shoulder or wondering if/when my 2nd cousin I haven't talked to in 87 years is going to turn me in, or some neighbor I talked trash to 5 years before RFLing me.

When .gov kicks in a door you wont have time to get rid of anything, and they'll crucify you for "ghost guns" or illegal stuff.

Easier to just follow whatever laws. If SHTF happens they'll probably have more important stuff to worry about

Or not

It's interesting they're going to require all manufacturers to use their FFL license to start their serial numbers.  First three of FFL number, then last five of FFL number, hyphen and then the typical serial number will start.

Sounds like a blatant first amendment violation to me.   Not that the constitution matters.

Following the law won't keep you any safer from the government.

Yep..

Reading pages 41 and 42, it looks like all companies that offer marking services will be required to mark any home made firearms with a serial number - that serial number will include the marking companies FFL number (which per this rule, all marking companies will have to get an FFL if they mark a home made firearm).

Okay, so help me out.  When I take this to an engraver who's FFL number do I put on it?

Attached File

Yep

They change the laws and just turn law abiding citizens into criminals.

Why would anyone buy an 80% receiver / frame with a serial number?  Won't future sales of 80% receivers / frames be dead with this ATF "re-determination"?

Yes, that's why they're doing it.

That would make a good engraving.

Exactly.  In the same way pistol braces will be dead (based on the other ATF re-determination).  Who's going to spend $200 and wait years (with the impending backlog) to run a pistol brace?  Pistol braces will be replaced with stocks.

Thing is I don't need any more guns, but I enjoy building them even though 80% of them sit in the safe and rarely get fired.

I have about three guns I fire regularly, the rest just sit in their armored library.

I just wished they would leave law abiding me alone and let me enjoy my hobby.

And I just let my C&R expire.  Right in the nick of time.

What happens if you cut it in two?  Did you make TWO firearms out of one?

rob

If you read the document, they specifically carve out blocks of metal until they "look" like a gun part, then they regulate them. They also have a section devoted to demilled guns/receivers, essentially saying the current rules stay the same.

I wouldn't be surprised if they go after 0% forgings, or at least any forging that has had any machining done to it.