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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:19:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: O'RLY? Please detail the nuance that justified it? Why wasn't German and Italian camps justified the same? NAZI spies and saboteurs were more of a valid threat and carried out more attacks. It was wrong and absolutely was partially based on racism. Again, we're talking about Americans of Japanese decent, not foreign nationals. All were lumped into the same category. I have no doubt that if Germans and Italians were racially identifiable ...they too would have been excluded from sensitive seaboard areas as a possible risk. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:20:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: yeah, we are stupid assholes. Believing in things like due process and such. We should always trust the government and do exactly what they say.  They got due process, good and hard. Yasui v. the United States Hirabayashi v. the United States Korematsu V. the United States And ~10 other cases. The lesson here is that Due Process is the Golden Rule. Never mistake due process for justice or fairness. (you're 1/4 of the way through law school now!) (this thread is actually verging on BLM talking points, lol) |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:33:50 PM EDT
[#3]
No it wasn't justified. No more than if they rounded up German-Americans. Just the usual racism wrapped up in fear and fake patriotism. The Japanese Americans who served proved it.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:34:16 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: what's amazing is how many "freedom" lovers here are willing to just ignore the whole DUE PROCESS thing and ruin the lives of innocent people due to the actions of others as a whole At the time they figured clearing people who had ancestry and possible allegiance in common with the enemy away from the coast was prudent. Looking back after the fact it a was pretty crass thing to do. I'd say, "hindsight's 20/20" but that ain't so - because we'll never know how many lives were saved or ships weren't sunk. There is no way to quantify it. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:35:37 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was a vast over-reaction and a psycho-opp. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:36:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Was not justified. No American should have ever been subjected to that.
I've been too Granada Relocation Center in Granada, Colorado. It's a sad, sad place. 
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:41:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What the fuck does that have to with us? How do the crimes of the Japanese government excuse abusing our own citizens? Bullshit. List all the internees who were convicted of espionage and sabotage. I'll wait. 'List all the internees who were convicted of espionage and sabotage.' The fact that they were interred prevented espionage and sabotage. That's a huge part of why they were interred. You can't prove a negative, bro. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:44:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL at the apologists, guess who's next on the chopping block? Don't complain when libs take all your possessions with no compensation and ship you off to the reeducation camps. Jan 6 will be the new Nihau |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:45:35 PM EDT
[#9]
No and neither were the ones for Germans.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:46:00 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a complex answer. The short answer is fuck FDR. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:46:15 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Putting people you don't like in concentration camps is NEVER the right answer. I've been to the site of the Topaz Camp and for lack of a better way to explain, the place just feels wrong. I'm sure the place is haunted. Also never forget which American political party was in control when they actually imprisoned other people in camps. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:47:58 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Democrats like to put people in camps. It will be there turn soon. At least they will know what to expect. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:48:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm gonna take a stab at it, but don't really expect a cogent comprehension... 'List all the internees who were convicted of espionage and sabotage.' The fact that they were interred prevented espionage and sabotage. That's a huge part of why they were interred. You can't prove a negative, bro.  The Simpsons Anti-Tiger Rock ...except the rock is mass incarceration, and theft. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:52:58 PM EDT
[#14]
They were US citizens.
They should have shot people in the face tying to detain them. The end. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:57:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it wasn't justified. No more than if they rounded up German-Americans. Just the usual racism wrapped up in fear and fake patriotism. The Japanese Americans who served proved it. It wasn't like the government just woke up one morning and said, "Today I think I'll fuck with some innocent Americans". Seems it was more like, "We need to create a costal zone where spies can't see what stuff we're doing to fight this fucking war...American kids are dying!" Something, something, greater good in the middle of a world war. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:58:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was not justified. No American should have ever been subjected to that. I've been too Granada Relocation Center in Granada, Colorado. It's a sad, sad place. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:07:47 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bro...how do you propose to provide 'due process' to 120,000 people in the middle of a shooting war when your troops are dying by the hundreds and you need to try to prevent spies from announcing troop and materiel movements? At the time they figured clearing people who had ancestry and possible allegiance in common with the enemy away from the coast was prudent. Looking back after the fact it a was pretty crass thing to do. I'd say, "hindsight's 20/20" but that ain't so - because we'll never know how many lives were saved or ships weren't sunk. There is no way to quantify it. It must be written on the bill of rights right next to pandemic. “Not applicable to US Citizens in time of war.”  out of
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:09:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You realize there were incidents which compromised security previous to the implementation of an exclusion zone? Radio transmissions about troop movements and shipping schedules? It wasn't like the government just woke up one morning and said, "Today I think I'll fuck with some innocent Americans". Seems it was more like, "We need to create a costal zone where spies can't see what stuff we're doing to fight this fucking war...American kids are dying!" Something, something, greater good in the middle of a world war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshio_Miyazaki Arrest. All. Marylanders. Or the war is lost.   Attached File |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:13:25 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stop conflating military security with leftist politics. It's all about "security" so anything can be justified using their mental gymnastics. It's clear from your posts you're not the brightest person here but even this should be clear. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:15:39 PM EDT
[#20]
1/2 Japanese. 100% American. No. Phuck no. You're going to question my loyalty. Try to get me into a camp. You're not going to like it.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:16:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What I always found interesting is how little we learned about them in school Agreed. All my history classes glossed over that chapter real quick. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:24:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was a huge violation of US citizen’s constitutional rights. I cannot believe someone would defend it. Almost no one actually gives a shit about constitutionally limited government or individual rights. Especially when they get a little afraid. Americans are no exception in this regard. That said, personally, I think the American citizens rounded up for the camps would have been well within their rights to shoot the policemen and soldiers who carried out FDR's EO. Such an outrageous overstep of government authority SHOULD have resulted in massive civil unrest by all Americans. If, indeed, Americans love liberty and the constitution. That most Americans were either indifferent or approved of the camps speaks volumes to the myth of American idealism. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:25:13 PM EDT
[#23]
soon enough............you will be in a camp!
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:26:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was actually a very pragmatic approach to a problem they did not have have a way to effectively via other means. I wish people would not apply contemporary view points to historical events.... You cannot view the actions of the past with the lens of the present it never works.. yep- people dont get this! |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:28:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stop conflating military security with leftist politics. Shipping people off to gulags without trial or charge is a fairly leftist political action. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:28:26 PM EDT
[#26]
Democrats doing democrat stuff.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:28:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Yes
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:30:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Democrats like to put people in camps. Except Chinese spies and Corona spreaders. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:30:23 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: yep- people dont get this! The US constitution had been ratified for 150 years by that point. The military arresting people and holding them without trial is literally one of the things Americans shot British soldiers in the face to stop. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:32:38 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: what's amazing is how many "freedom" lovers here are willing to just ignore the whole DUE PROCESS thing and ruin the lives of innocent people due to the actions of others as a whole You should have seen GD calling for glassing the ME after 9/11. Americans love mass action, it's in our nature as a democracy. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:32:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Democrats doing democrat stuff. And conservatives approving after the fact, as usual. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:37:36 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You realize there were incidents which compromised security previous to the implementation of an exclusion zone? Radio transmissions about troop movements and shipping schedules? It wasn't like the government just woke up one morning and said, "Today I think I'll fuck with some innocent Americans". Seems it was more like, "We need to create a costal zone where spies can't see what stuff we're doing to fight this fucking war...American kids are dying!" Something, something, greater good in the middle of a world war. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No it wasn't justified. No more than if they rounded up German-Americans. Just the usual racism wrapped up in fear and fake patriotism. The Japanese Americans who served proved it. It wasn't like the government just woke up one morning and said, "Today I think I'll fuck with some innocent Americans". Seems it was more like, "We need to create a costal zone where spies can't see what stuff we're doing to fight this fucking war...American kids are dying!" Something, something, greater good in the middle of a world war. It was a B.S. thing. It was fubared beyond all belief, the least thing that the Goberment could have done is alteast held there properly for those people. That way when it was over they could have picked up where they left off and started over. They lost everything! |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:38:46 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You realize there were incidents which compromised security previous to the implementation of an exclusion zone? Radio transmissions about troop movements and shipping schedules? It wasn't like the government just woke up one morning and said, "Today I think I'll fuck with some innocent Americans". Seems it was more like, "We need to create a costal zone where spies can't see what stuff we're doing to fight this fucking war...American kids are dying!" Something, something, greater good in the middle of a world war. Pure BS. You should be ashamed. If you have a spy you investigate and arrest him. You don't hide behind fear, racism, bigotry and flush the Bill of Rights out of convenience. In WWII only 11,000 German nationals out of 1.2 million were interned. Each was individually investigated and only then interned based on evidence and due process. No such following of the law and Constitution occurred with Japanese Americans. It was unjustified no matter how you want to hide it. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:42:37 PM EDT
[#34]
FDR was a racist cunt!
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:48:36 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the midst of a war, with the entire west coast being the place that fed our war machine, it seemed prudent to make an 'exclusion zone' that lessened the opportunity for spying and sabotage. I have no doubt that if Germans and Italians were racially identifiable ...they too would have been excluded from sensitive seaboard areas as a possible risk. Again, citizens who had their Constitutional rights violated just because of their ethnicity. Let’s say the same were rounded up an executed for the same ‘justification.’ Still think it was ok given the situation? |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:48:52 PM EDT
[#36]
Nope. I can see why they did it, but that doesn't make it ok. I can see the logic behind banning ar15s too, but you cannot give up freedom for false safety.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:51:44 PM EDT
[#37]
FUCK NO!
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Posted: 1/24/2021 8:51:58 PM EDT
[#38]
Probably not but I think I might have done the same at the time.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:10:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You realize there were incidents which compromised security previous to the implementation of an exclusion zone? Radio transmissions about troop movements and shipping schedules? It wasn't like the government just woke up one morning and said, "Today I think I'll fuck with some innocent Americans". Seems it was more like, "We need to create a costal zone where spies can't see what stuff we're doing to fight this fucking war...American kids are dying!" Something, something, greater good in the middle of a world war. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No it wasn't justified. No more than if they rounded up German-Americans. Just the usual racism wrapped up in fear and fake patriotism. The Japanese Americans who served proved it. It wasn't like the government just woke up one morning and said, "Today I think I'll fuck with some innocent Americans". Seems it was more like, "We need to create a costal zone where spies can't see what stuff we're doing to fight this fucking war...American kids are dying!" Something, something, greater good in the middle of a world war. Honest question Did they do this on the east coast? German U boats got into our waters. Massive ship production, weapons and other material manufactured up and down the eastern seaboard. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:24:14 PM EDT
[#40]
In retrospect no.
You can make an argument that it could actually have stopped some level of insider attack/espionage/etc. I don’t know of any such cases offhand but who knows. But it still doesn’t justify anything. You can lock up everyone between the ages of 15-30 to stem violent crime, or put everyone over 65 in medical camps to bring down COVID deaths, and it’ll probably work.....but that doesn’t mean it’s a justified measure to use on your own US citizens. Same thing back then. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:29:26 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They got due process, good and hard. Yasui v. the United States Hirabayashi v. the United States Korematsu V. the United States And ~10 other cases. The lesson here is that Due Process is the Golden Rule. Never mistake due process for justice or fairness. (you're 1/4 of the way through law school now!) (this thread is actually verging on BLM talking points, lol) Ex post facto due process. Sorry about that chap but you go to the slammer anyway. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:30:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: soon enough............you will be in a camp! We can discourse on it in camp together! 
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:33:30 PM EDT
[#43]
I've tried to enter this once and it didn't work so this may be a duplicate
George Takei mr. Sulu of Star Trek talks a lot about this in his book to the Stars. He and his family were basically taken from their home and sent off to an internment camp. It's very interesting actually. Live long and prosper |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:34:08 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What I always found interesting is how little we learned about them in school FDR is the progressive hero in american leftist ideology. Of course they dont talk about it |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:38:14 PM EDT
[#45]
It wasn't the right thing to do. There was a huge campaign against Japanese Americans at the time too. They would be randomly attacked in the street. Its bullshit if you agree with it. Even in historical context, it was out of line. 100% disagreeable.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:38:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Yes and no. How it was handled was absolutely wrong.
But, there were Japanese spies on the west coast. Story time: a long retired FBI agent would meet with my dad and a couple of other teachers at a Cafe for coffee and shoot the shit. He told a story of a Jap spy that was watching Hanford during WW2 from a small cabin within visual distance. A hunter came up to the cabin site and reported it to the sheriff. The field agent arrived with the sheriff and found the Jap at the cabin. He had a radio, scopes, a good supply of food. Hanford drew a lot of attention due to its secretive nature and the agent suspected that the guy was being supplied by Soviet spies. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:47:06 PM EDT
[#47]
When I post on the internet. I try to come from a place of ignorance without regard to other people's God given rights. I also always try to get off my moral high horse and remember that generally two wrongs make a right.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:49:02 PM EDT
[#48]
I have long wondered how it would have been viewed if we transported all of those Japanese to the Soviets to fight Germans and work in Soviet factories instead.
Also wondered how it would have been viewed if Nazis shipped off Jews to fight the Soviets. You can't really defect and change sides in those scenarios, and far enough from safety that going AWOL and trying to escape likely won't work either. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:53:51 PM EDT
[#49]
Interesting thread, with many people ignoring the question that (I think) was asked:
In a world where our country had just been attacked by the Japanese and where we knew some Japanese-Americans were supporting the Japanese effort through espionage, was internment justified? I take that as a tactical, not moral question. It doesn't ask if internment camps were moral, or ok, or Constitutional. The question is, did the Japanese-American population (or some subset of it) present an actual threat to the US war effort? And if so, did internment serve the purpose it was intended to serve? Did it help the US eliminate or reduce espionage? It's not hard to hold two separate views: Yes, it was tactically justified, and No, it was not morally justified. To those of you equating this to Dems wanting to send us to reeducation camps, you're pretty much right on point! From the Democrat point of view--which holds that conservatives are both wrong and evil--it would be justified to try and force conservatives to change. That doesn't make it Constitutional. That doesn't make it moral. But if your goal is to eliminate (or diminish) conservativism, it could be an effective--and therefore justifiable tactic. Something too many people on both sides seem to miss: When you are in a shooting war, if you worry more about morality than effective tactics, you will lose. During WWII, the US still understood that. (We wouldn't have dropped the A-bombs otherwise.) And our enemies today--including the Democrats--know that. Have no question, they will not hesitate to lie, cheat and do everything in their power to weaken the conservative base. They know when they're lying about people. They know all Trump voters aren't homophobic, racist, facist, Nazi, white supremacists. But if spreading the lie helps them gain power and get closer to their goals, a little "flexibility" in their morals is worthwhile and acceptable. To them. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:54:57 PM EDT
[#50]
The Bill of Rights and Consitution is black and white, short and to the point, easily understood.
Our legal system has turned it into a madhouse of confusion to justify their jobs and to justify tyranny. Anyone who slightly agrees with what happened hasn't put themselves in those shoes. |
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