User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 7:51:50 PM EDT
[#1]
More SS, but both got their hands very dirty.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 7:52:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More SS, but both got their hands very dirty. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 7:52:30 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More SS, but both got their hands very dirty. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 7:53:48 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More SS, but both got their hands very dirty. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 7:54:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Were they equally complicit in war crimes (hell, let's just call it crimes against humanity), or was it predominantly SS driven? Overall, they kinda stayed out of it but they got their hands quite dirty too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 7:55:55 PM EDT
[#6]
This thread is going to go well.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 7:55:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More SS, but both got their hands very dirty. In before the inevitable Waffen SS apologists. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 7:57:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm just finally starting to read about this stuff. On my first book, but I plan to chase it 'till I feel I have some understanding of what occurred. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
More SS, but both got their hands very dirty. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 7:58:28 PM EDT
[#9]
Is this allowed now in GD or is a ban topic
You know,feelings and stuff |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 7:59:11 PM EDT
[#10]
Many of the worst crimes attributed to the Waffen SS were committed by the SIPO and uniformed ORPO troops that were embedded with them.
Same can be said (to a more limited extent) for the Wehrmacht. The Einsatzgruppen were led by regular SS officers , answering to SS "HSSPF's".....local/theatre "Police leaders",.... and composed of SIPO, and ORPO members that were embedded with both Waffen SS and Wehrmacht troops... the SIPO was composed of KRIPO, Gestapo, and SD members. The ORPO was the uniformed police within Germany . The actual organization was complicated, and detached just enough from combat troops and their leadership to make the relationship purposefully "cloudy". To the man, every Einsatzgruppen leader was either a lawyer or a doctor (with possibly the exception of Arthur Nebe….......head of the KRIPO and later hung for his part in the 1944 plot) The uniforms looked the same if you were a victim of their brutality...... |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:00:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread is going to go well. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:00:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Wehrmacht new exactly what was going on... they knew the war going into the East was a war of annihilation... don't let them fool you.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:01:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
I'm just finally starting to read about this stuff. On my first book, but I plan to chase it 'till I feel I have some understanding of what occurred. Here's a good real-world cloak-and-dagger book: 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:01:31 PM EDT
[#14]
 The Battle of Castle Itter - US & German Troops Join Forces to Fight the SS Not always. There were disagreements, I alway think of Steiner and his men in The Eagle has Landed.  Failed To Load Title Sophie Scholl’s brotherI believe was Wehrmacht and disagreed with Nazism. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:02:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Every army ever fielded has commited atrocities. Some have attempted extermination. The SS were experts at both.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:02:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is this allowed now in GD or is a ban topic You know,feelings and stuff |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:03:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, in Poland the Wehrmacht did certainly assist the Einsatzgruppen. Overall, they kinda stayed out of it but they got their hands quite dirty too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:04:49 PM EDT
[#18]
There were "dirty" and "clean" SS units - they were like the German equivalent of green berets and much like today there are teams that work with conventional forces doing not so secret things and then there are teams that do clandestine work (today, based on attained security be clearances and merit within SF orgs)
You could be in a clean SS unit and probably had a good idea that the atrocities were occuring but maybe not be elbow deep in them yourselves. The Einsatzgruppem guys were all complicit and the German leadership recruited druggies and alcoholics and psychopaths to join up and gave perk pay of booze drugs and women. These guys knew what they were doing to a man. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:06:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If folks don't understand history, they are bound to repeat it. Hell, I bet most younger folks today don't know the first thing about the events that actually transpired, that led to the holocaust. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This thread is going to go well. These threads just usually devolve into idiot parades instead of scholarly discussion. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:06:08 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wehrmacht new exactly what was going on... they knew the war going into the East was a war of annihilation... don't let them fool you. Afterwards, any German couldn’t have missed the disappearance of Jewish people from Germany. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:07:46 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Einsatzgruppem guys were all complicit and the German leadership recruited druggies and alcoholics and psychopaths to join up and gave perk pay of booze drugs and women. These guys knew what they were doing to a man. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:11:28 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every German knew something was going on. The first step was the Nuremberg Laws stripping Jews of their citizenship and property rights. Those were passed in 1935. Afterwards, any German couldn’t have missed the disappearance of Jewish people from Germany. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Wehrmacht new exactly what was going on... they knew the war going into the East was a war of annihilation... don't let them fool you. Afterwards, any German couldn’t have missed the disappearance of Jewish people from Germany. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:12:34 PM EDT
[#23]
Nothing to say that won't get me banned.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:17:52 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think most thought they were being relocated. In '45 the German civilians had to be shown the death camps as proof. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wehrmacht new exactly what was going on... they knew the war going into the East was a war of annihilation... don't let them fool you. Afterwards, any German couldn’t have missed the disappearance of Jewish people from Germany. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:19:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Well there we some waffen ss units who have impeccable records free of any war crimes. Others..full of garbage criminals. Same with the Heer. Some units actively participated in mass shootings etc. Alot seemed to be based on what they did... say if they were fighting partisans than both types of units did alot of bad stuff. Conversely some armour or nordic units had decent records. Also different arms of the SS were worse than the military arm.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:20:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wehrmacht new exactly what was going on... they knew the war going into the East was a war of annihilation... don't let them fool you. Or, a person can believe that the holocaust is the best-kept secret in human history. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:20:32 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think most thought they were being relocated. In '45 the German civilians had to be shown the death camps as proof. The actual "death camps" where millions were systematically murdered were mostly far away from Germany in Poland. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:20:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80ZyPeoDUqk
Not always. There were disagreements, I alway think of Steiner and his men in The Eagle has Landed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5WoDc8V6o4
Sophie Scholl’s brotherI believe was Wehrmacht and disagreed with Nazism. This book also goes into great detail about the Lipizzaner rescue. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:22:19 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think most thought they were being relocated. In '45 the German civilians had to be shown the death camps as proof. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wehrmacht new exactly what was going on... they knew the war going into the East was a war of annihilation... don't let them fool you. Afterwards, any German couldn’t have missed the disappearance of Jewish people from Germany. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:22:27 PM EDT
[#30]
War is war.
It's war for a reason, otherwise its diplomacy. Genocide is a whole different creature. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:23:17 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The entire German population knew what was going on. Soldiers go on leave/furlough, and soldiers on leave/furlough drink, and talk. Or, a person can believe that the holocaust is the best-kept secret in human history. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:29:49 PM EDT
[#32]
google the Hunger Plan OP.... it was an integral part of the highest level of Wehrmacht economic planning for operations in the East(not just some flaky SS murder scheme)... in summary, food from western Russia(Ukraine) would be essential to sustain German armies in the field and sent back to Germany because Germany couldn't supply itself... priority above all other populations, 20-30 million Russians estimated to starve to death as a result.
One of the meetings for the logistical planning for the invasion of the USSR included in its conclusions firstly that the war could only be continued if the entirety of the German armed forces was fed from Russia in the third year of the war, and secondly that if the Germans took what they needed out of the country, there could be no doubt that tens of millions of people would necessarily die of starvation. The minutes of the meeting wholly exemplified the nature of the German planning for the occupation of the USSR, and revealed a deliberate decision on the life or death of vast parts of the western USSR’s population as a logical, indeed virtually inevitable, development. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:34:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Wehrmacht had its hands dirtied too.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:35:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
google the Hunger Plan OP.... it was an integral part of the highest level of Wehrmacht economic planning for operations in the East(not just some flaky SS murder scheme)... in summary, food from western Russia(Ukraine) would be essential to sustain German armies in the field and sent back to Germany because Germany couldn't supply itself... priority above all other populations, 20-30 million Russians estimated to starve to death as a result. Quote HistoryQuoted:
google the Hunger Plan OP.... it was an integral part of the highest level of Wehrmacht economic planning for operations in the East(not just some flaky SS murder scheme)... in summary, food from western Russia(Ukraine) would be essential to sustain German armies in the field and sent back to Germany because Germany couldn't supply itself... priority above all other populations, 20-30 million Russians estimated to starve to death as a result. One of the meetings for the logistical planning for the invasion of the USSR included in its conclusions firstly that the war could only be continued if the entirety of the German armed forces was fed from Russia in the third year of the war, and secondly that if the Germans took what they needed out of the country, there could be no doubt that tens of millions of people would necessarily die of starvation. The minutes of the meeting wholly exemplified the nature of the German planning for the occupation of the USSR, and revealed a deliberate decision on the life or death of vast parts of the western USSR’s population as a logical, indeed virtually inevitable, development. ww2 exposed the worst in humanity but ww3 will make that look like kindergarten kids stuff imho |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:41:21 PM EDT
[#35]
I believe the enforced famine, the Hunger Winter, of 1944-45 was largely the result of Wehrmacht forces. The Wehrmacht participated in atrocities in WWI:
https://www.bl.uk/world-war-one/articles/historiography-atrocities-the-long-shadow |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:43:25 PM EDT
[#36]
I highly recommend the book The German War: A Nation under Arms, 1939-1945 by Nicholas Stargardt (Listened to it via Audiobook). It relies heavily on correspondence and diaries of Germans at the time. Here's a brief part of a Guardian review on the book:
Historians have long debunked the postwar myth of German ignorance about the Holocaust, and Stargardt presents further evidence that the genocide was an open secret. News spread via German soldiers and officials who witnessed massacres, or participated in them. "The Jews are being completely exterminated," a policeman wrote in August 1941 to his wife in Bremen. Nazi propaganda also dropped heavy hints, creating a sense of societal complicity: in autumn 1941, for instance, the Nazi party displayed posters across the country, emblazoned with Hitler's threat that a world war would lead to the "destruction of the Jewish race in Europe". Ordinary Germans watched the deportations of their Jewish neighbours and purchased their abandoned property at bargain prices. Later on, the authorities distributed the belongings of Jews among bombed-out Germans, though this triggered new complaints about Nazi bigwigs grabbing the best bits and "laying their Aryan arses in the Jewish beds after they have exterminated the Jews", as one employee in a Bavarian factory exclaimed. There was some popular unease about the genocide, and it came into the open during the intense allied bombing, in a rather twisted manner: many ordinary Germans bought into the Nazi propaganda picture of Jews pulling the strings in Britain and the USA, and understood the air raids as payback for the antisemitic pogroms and mass murders. In this way, writes Stargardt, the Germans "mixed anxieties about their culpability with a sense of their own victimhood". |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:47:17 PM EDT
[#37]
Everyone committed war crimes
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:47:58 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree...Common sense tells you that ten years of coming and goings of regular troops, family members as clerks, SS uncles, party members, typists makes plausible deniability ludicrous. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The entire German population knew what was going on. Soldiers go on leave/furlough, and soldiers on leave/furlough drink, and talk. Or, a person can believe that the holocaust is the best-kept secret in human history. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:50:27 PM EDT
[#39]
Denying the enemy of food (including civilians) is an idea as old as war itself. The term salting the earth? What do you think the concept of siege warfare is entirely based on?
Erasing cultures? How about "measure to the lynch pin". Was it evil? Absolutely. But none of it was new. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:53:41 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually they were shown Buchenwald and Dachau which were concentration camps within Germany where the small remainder of tens of thousands of people were starved and died of typhus, etc. The actual "death camps" where millions were systematically murdered were mostly far away from Germany in Poland. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I think most thought they were being relocated. In '45 the German civilians had to be shown the death camps as proof. The actual "death camps" where millions were systematically murdered were mostly far away from Germany in Poland. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:57:04 PM EDT
[#41]
Tag for when I land and have time for a detailed reply.
I have studied that topic for years. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 8:59:08 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The death camps were in Poland, yes, but Auschwitz is a mere 345 miles from Berlin. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 9:00:13 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The death camps were in Poland, yes, but Auschwitz is a mere 345 miles from Berlin. That's about 350 miles from the middle of Texas |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 9:03:24 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The death camps were in Poland, yes, but Auschwitz is a mere 345 miles from Berlin. However, as I stated before, there was a multi-year campaign against the Jews in Germany starting in the early 30's, so Germans knew the "open secret" as the review in another post stated. They also knew about Dachau, Buchenwald, Ravensbrook and the like which were in German borders. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 9:06:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Einsatzgruppen 2,000,000 plus executions . Hands down the worst.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 9:07:37 PM EDT
[#46]
"Collaborators" are some of the worse. Liberals are collaborators.
With German Communications systems and accounting systems it's hard for any of them to say they didn't know what was going on. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 9:07:46 PM EDT
[#47]
A lot of the killing of Jews happened outside of Germany because that's where a lot of the Jews lived.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 9:11:23 PM EDT
[#48]
Any German who was in Germany during the run-up to WWII and lived through the war that tells you they "had no idea" about what was being done in their names is full of it.
Adam Tooze details the economic crimes committed, the looting, and all the rest of it in The Wages of Destruction. The Nazis had so many little fiddles going with regards to paying people off with the loot from occupied countries and Jewish property that it wasn't even funny. Your mind would boggle at it all--The Hunger Winter someone refers to up-thread is one example, caused mainly by the Nazis essentially looting the entirety of the Dutch agricultural industries to send back to Germany. A lot of it was essentially retail-level looting, by jiggering the exchange rates to pay German soldiers in worthless scrip that they could force the locals to take in lieu of real money, a fiddle that sucked vast amounts of goods and materials out of the occupied countries and into the homes of Germans who'd benefit from "their boys" sending things back in the mail. The whole thing is amazing. The Nazis were surely some of the most successful small- and large-time crooks in the history of the world--For a little while. You can look at WWII as basically being like an organized crime bust-out conducted by the Germans. And, they all knew what was going on. Every bit of it. They wanted it, and they knew they were going to pay for it, in the end. That's why there were so many guilty consciences and why they all deny it to this day. But, you'll note, ain't nobody really working hard to give any of that back, unless someone puts a gun to their heads first. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 9:14:06 PM EDT
[#49]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2019 9:19:03 PM EDT
[#50]
The Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht
War Crimes of the Wehrmacht If you were a Jew, or a political commissar, or just anyone the Germans thought were going to cause them trouble, you were getting murdered. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
