It is, of course, the latter. It's what he does.

So when Russia attacks a sovereign nation they get condemnation, but when Ukraine attacks a sovereign nation they are praised?

This is hard to keep up with.

Clearly.

I refuse to believe you can't understand the concept of "shooting back."

Once an aggressor starts a war with you, it's okay to hit them back.

How about when Russia invades a neighbor they get condemnation.  When the neighbor responds out of self defense they are praised.    Russia started this war w/ Ukraine.

Seriously...?

Russia drew first blood

My point was that during both of those campaigns, the United States killed quite a lot of civilians.

That part of the plan did not work nor will it ever work. It DID however destroy their infrastructure. And that was part of why they collapsed.

Nuking a non-nuclear armed country, that you invaded, seems like a good defense strategy.
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Using SA-5s in a new role.

Who did Ukraine invade?

That's where it would hurt Russia the most.  Russia isn't big on innovation or manufacturing of consumer goods.  They get by with selling oil, natural gas, and raw materials.  Oil is very important to their economy to say the least.  Refineries/oil storage tanks/oil production fields/pipelines are also very vulnerable to attack, drones, sabotage, or whatever.  No shortage of things that burn.  Their oil sector also has lots of exposure to the West for parts and specialists.  Damaged refineries will be very difficult to repair now with the sanctions.  

Drone attacks on Moscow might feel good, but the Russian economy getting wrecked and shortages of fuels will piss off more everyday Russians.  It will be hard for Russian media to downplay that.  Of course, there is a risk that if the Russian's are pushed too far, they'd just say to hell with it and launch some tactical nukes in Ukraine.  Desperate men do desperate things.  It wouldn't be a good idea for them, but it might scratch that itch for revenge domestically.  It would likely escalate the war and Ukraine would suddenly have loads of ATACMS missiles and other advanced weapons.  

Most larger SAMs have a secondary surface to surface mode.

The big issue here was the SA-5 was intended to defend against very high altitude targets.

This missile landed reportedly near the FSB building. I doubt Ukraine would intentionally strike at civilian targets given how many actually useful targets they have to shoot at.

Muscovy spent 7 of its first 10 centuries sucking the cocks of one foreign ruler or another. It’s their natural state.

Eastern Ukraine? Lol

These small strikes are nothing more than to try and sow discord with the Russian people and remind them how close the war is to them. Ukraine has to keep up the appearance of offensive operations (both inside Ukraine and in Russia) to secure future funds and armaments from the West, while at the same time hoping it also translates to better conditions when the cease fire is eventually negotiated.

When a victim defends themselves against a bully it's not a problem. It's the bully's problem for starting it.

I don't see it as an issue.

Use them. There is no point to throwing away or tossing perfectly good systems.

The putin bros can be entertaining, or simply absurd. This one is pretty clear...

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What everyone seems to forget is this is the soviet union with the last generation in charge. They do not want to lose the old empires teeth yet they like western free market economy.

Soviets rule in country with fear, and now trying to gather the post WW2 soviet union back from the catastrophic territorial losses in the last century. Only the Baltic countries want nothing to do with it. And Poland had enough to risk civil war to get away from russia. Most countries are now NATO protected, and some of the populations still remember WW2 and after.

If the soviets do not have enough combat power to finish the invasion then Ukraine has nothing to lose and should meet aggression with aggression. You win by violence of action. And the soviets have their own rulebook, and do not have one reason to fear NATO as they see a broken conglomerate of european do gooders who have no spine.

The Ukrainians can use their limited missiles to harass russia's population or use for an in theater attempt to break through the MLR and get into the rear area's to gain territory. But sending 1 or 2 at a time is not going to gain any kind of advantage in any exchange of non surgical attacks on civil populations.

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Good.  

Fuck Russia.  

They can leave Ukraine at any time.

If only the well being of the American people was so staunchly defended as the well being of the Ukrainian government on this forum.

What is the American support of this really about?
Money Laundering and Corruption.  Proof is in the intentional lack of transparency by the same people who continue to bring so much harm to the Republic.

lol

fuck Puccia!

I have to hand it to the Ukrainians,  they definitely are a class A group of McGuyvers.

Best way to do it, bring a bit of this war to the Russian homeland. Because to the average Russian the war in Ukraine is just a news story, but if a missle hits a house in your neighborhood that's different.

Why can't the GAO do this?

What the world needs is a lot less dead civilians and a lot more innovation for things that don’t immediately result in the death of our fellow man. Of course that doesn’t keep retired flag officers current on their 2nd and 3rd mortgages.

The only people benefiting from this conflict are weapons producers, politicians, and those who stand to get contracts to rebuild when this is all over. Everyone else is simply meat for the grinder.

Good use of old military equipment.  And not using western arms to hit Russia sounds like a great idea to me. Hope they have a massive stock pile of them.

Pretty crazy that Russia has been targeting civilians since day one and we didn’t hear a peep from anyone in GD about it. But when Russia starts getting a taste of it then omg!! Outrage!! War crimes! Zelenskyy is a criminal! Lol.  Shows how far the brainwashed has turned against the freedom loving west and are now coddling our historical enemies.

+1 to this.  I'm not for targeting civilians, but at this point this is the FO part of FAFO and the Russians get what they get.  If you don't think you would do this if your homeland was being attacked and your civilians being killed, maybe you need to re-calibrate.  I have no doubt that this will only make good press for Vlad with the babushkas, however, and possibly enable him to go to full mobilization because Mother Russia is under attack.

In my mind they have the right to fire back any time they get ready.

However, there is a substancial risk of escalation from the bear.

The populous of a country that invaded you and targeted your populous is a valid military target. It should hurt to invade another country badly.

Breaking the will of an invader's civilian support a valid military military objective.

Don't agree with me. Ask the mayors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Restrictions on warfare are silly, but what' the end goal?

Right now the stated "end goal" of Ukraine is to recover all territory lost since 2014.  Is that realistic? If they recover that territory will it be a net positive or a net negative for them?  Would the DPR be governable?  Would Russia forever want to reinvade to retake Crimea, which they have held since the days of Catherine the Great and John Paul Jones, which presently gives them their only Naval Base on the Black Sea?

The end state for any nation is peace, prosperity, and security.  How is that best achieved?  The DPR is ungovernable for Kyiv, it is predominately culturally Russian and a large number if not the majority of men there are in open rebellion fighting Kyiv in this war.   It is easy to forget in the USA that in part since 2014 this conflict has been a Civil War as much as a War against Russia.   There is a very large segment of the Ukrainian population in the East that identifies more with Russia and this shouldn't come as a surprise given that territory's change of hands over the centuries.  The Fall of the Soviet Union was inevitably going to create issues with border lines as those border lines were redrawn and so, here we are today.  

Ukraine needs to be realistic, they need to set their sights on a negotiated peace settlement and of course they do want to do that in a position of strength.  I think they have and are demonstrating that Russia will not advance farther into Ukraine without great cost and that continued prosecution of this war will come at greater and greater cost for Russia.  The air strikes into Russia itself is a part of helping the Russians to realize that hard truth.  

I think Ukraine should go defensive, keep slaughtering any Russian attackers, and keep blowing up Russian domestic targets until the weather changes to the Fall Rains.  In the Fall and Winter months when the climate is cold wet and the farm fields of Ukraine turn to absolute mud the USA, it's NATO Allies, and Ukraine need to approach Russia diplomatically and try to secure a winter cease fire and begin negotiations toward a final settlement.  The end goal should be to preserve Ukraine's right to belong to NATO and the EU in exchange for the Russians maintaining the DPR area and Crimea with full recognition of that territory as Russian, lifting of sanctions, and since Ukraine is not in any condition due to its internal corruption issues to join NATO or the EU right now a pledge delay of 5 years before Ukraine could join NATO or the EU (they need that time to get squared away anyways).

If this conflict goes into 2024 we have diminishing returns for Ukraine, attrition warfare will begin to takes its toll on Ukraine, the economic collapse will begin to take its toll on Ukraine and they will wither away as foreign aid is inevitably reduced.  I think this Fall/Winter is the peak time for Ukraine to get to the best outcome it can hope to achieve and although they will lose some territory it is an incredible achievement to survive and to be fully embraced now by the EU and NATO.  Tossing back the Russian invasion, keeping Kyiv in power, and forcing the Russians to the negotiation table is a victory for a small poor nation like Ukraine, it's a Hell of a victory.

So they waited more than a year before attacking targets in the host country that invaded them and mercilessly bombed schools, apartments, and hospitals.

Not only do no give a fuck, I'll say, "about fucking time!"

That's a fake narrative. Here's the map of the 1991 independence vote by oblast.

One of the FSB leaders that helped instigate the "uprising" in Donbas admitted on video that they had to force the local political leaders to declare their separation. Absent Russian intervention, that movement never would have gone anywhere. Likely, all of it was 100% created by the FSB. This notion that Luhansk & Donetsk actually wanted independence from Kyiv isn't supported by any credible evidence. Articles have been written recently about how support for the Russian language is plummeting in eastern Ukraine. Russian-speaking Ukrainians consider it the language of an unwanted invader. Books in Russian language are being ground up for toilet paper. Not because of Kyiv, but because Ukrainians don't want to be Russian, including Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

The attrition war problem is a different question.

I no longer believe anything either side is saying about what is going on in Ukraine.  I do believe there is some fighting going on, but any claims made about bombings, body count, equipment destroyed are suspect.  I believe both sides are doing their best to put propaganda out that they believe will help their side, and that is to be expected.  

All media sources and governments put out whatever they believe will help them.  Anything either side or any media sources puts out is suspect...it has always been that way.

I mean at this point fuck it. Do as they have done and start making it harder to live in Russia

Another Ukebro fixated on male homsexual acts.

What a surprise.

Dupe

That's what the Russians want. They want people to be overwhelmed with bullshit and unable to ascertain enough certainty to assure themselves they can make good choices. It's take advantage of the information age: overwhelm with information. Mix up the spurious, the fake, the real, the BS, and create a firehose of crap to get people to sit on the bench rather than get involved.

Totally right about claims of casualties and equipment losses. None of it carries much weight. Considering all of it together might yield some useful information. So just stick to the basics: a lifelong enemy of the US invaded a peaceful neighbor without provocation, who has fought back valiantly. The invaders have raped, murdered, robbed, looted, destroyed, targeted civilians and civilian buildings. All of that has been substantiated by investigators not from Ukraine. Make of it what you will. Should we send aid to the victims of the invasion? Should we watch passively from the outside?

Ah! If only nuclear weapons didn't produce radioactive fallout. The 1960's would have solved many 2020 problems.

1. Global warming - no problem with nuclear winter still dissipating
2. OPEC - modern day East India Companies would rule the middle east with an iron fist
3. Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact - gone in 1963 after Cuban Missle crisis evolves to WW3
4. Overpopulation  - see #3
5. Islamic extremists - very poor and desert dwelling

I don't know if that map really is a map of Ukrainian nationalism as much as people want it to be. What Ukrainian independence meant in 1991 certainly is different, perhaps even more nationalist, but I don't think that map proves what you want it prove.

Now, has that changed post 2014 or 2022? Certainly likely, however, that map isn't the justification for that position.

Russian military history is basically vodka and sodomy.

Polling in 2013 indicated that a majority in all oblasts except Crimea wanted to be Ukrainian rather than Russian. If Ukraine can retake z crimea I imagine the franchise will be limited to persons there before 2014 and they’ll vote differently after the arrests for collaboration are complete.