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Posted: 2/18/2020 8:11:12 PM EDT
[#1]
Isn't there a word for enlisted guys with college degrees?
Oh. That's right. It's "officer". |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 8:16:27 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't there a word for enlisted guys with college degrees? Oh. That's right. It's "officer". |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 8:26:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't there a word for enlisted guys with college degrees? Oh. That's right. It's "officer". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't there a word for enlisted guys with college degrees? Oh. That's right. It's "officer". SNCO Tier
o 6.19% some college o 51.023% have associate's degrees o 31.619% have bachelor's degrees o 11.052% have master's degrees o 0.109% have professional degrees |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 8:33:41 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a Sergeant with a law degree that would disagree with you...and a couple Gunny's with degrees. A few SSgts for that matter as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Isn't there a word for enlisted guys with college degrees? Oh. That's right. It's "officer". I had a good Platoon Sergeant (an E-5) with a PhD in nuclear physics from MIT when I was with D Co. 4th Recon Bn in the mid-'80s. I had Inter Unit Transferred to a different unit long before ODS Kuwait was invaded, but I understand he was commissioned as a 1st Lt. before deploying because the company needed officers. He got out but still works for Los Alamos Nuclear labs on the civilian side. He enlisted in 1983 after earning his PhD, and the general fuckery that his Drill Instructor must have put him through once they found out he was a nuclear scientist must have been epic... |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 8:54:48 PM EDT
[#5]
I was a Sgt and had my bachelor's degree. I put in my package for OCS, but then those critical thinking skills I obtained in college (mild sarcasm) kicked in, and I said "Fuck this shit"..... I finished my enlistment and got out a year later.
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Posted: 2/18/2020 9:03:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a Sergeant with a law degree that would disagree with you...and a couple Gunny's with degrees. A few SSgts for that matter as well. If you have a 4 year degree then the last damn thing you want to be doing is enlisted work. And the MOST important....When that 20 year retirement is drawn, compare an E7 to an 05 and holla at me....For the rest of your life. Ultimately, it's about the retirement once you're past 4 years and decide to stay in. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 9:21:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It wasnt a direct comparison. "Sergeant" is the enlisted form of "sir" for ranks of E5-E8. When stating your name and rank almost always the full rank is used. Same if you are describing somebody to someone else. The sergeant thing is more for brevity in regular occurrences. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: "Sir" isn't a rank, pay grade, or billet. There really isn't any way to compare officer ranks with enlisted since only 2LT and 1LT are what I'd call "generic" in that they're both addressed as "lieutenant". CPT ,MAJ, LTC, COL are all distinct, except LTCs are addressed as "Colonial" out of courtesy. GOs are never addressed as anything other than "general". When was the last time you heard a LTC introduced as "L-T" because it was easier to say? On a practical level, I prefer to know what rank a "sergeant" is when he or she answers the phone or someone shows up for a face-to-face not in uniform. When stating your name and rank almost always the full rank is used. Same if you are describing somebody to someone else. The sergeant thing is more for brevity in regular occurrences. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 9:28:55 PM EDT
[#8]
You guys would be surprised of what type of people are drawn to the USMC.
It’s not crayon eaters, but that is still funny. PDT wouldn’t allow all the Marines around him if folklore was true. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 9:29:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's funny, coming from a guy who sides with Progressives half of the time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The funny thing is that Brit Army Staff Sausages often are referred to as "staffy." To one person, in one service culture, a term will be considered an honorific. Change the milieu (even within the same military service from the same country, sometimes) and a person will find it offensive. Within the U.S., “Chief” and “Top” are especially good examples. I just smile and nod. People take this shit too seriously.  
Honestly though, it's just kind of a standing joke and when I use a word like "at" or "on" instead of "aboard", it draws a few chuckles because I have to pause and think about it. Army English-to say nothing of their service culture-is an odd thing to me. My use of full rank titles like "Staff Sergeant", "Sergeant First Class", or "Master Sergeant" out of respect for those I'm speaking to instead of just "Sergeant" has rubbed off on my co-workers however; they too have adopted the same professionalism, proving once again that Soldiers can be trained. https://www.downthetrail.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/borg-meme.jpg 
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Posted: 2/18/2020 9:40:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Brevity is appropriate for radio communications |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 9:44:32 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Being that I have been called by my rank versus my first name maybe a dozen times in as many years I'm not super concerned with it. Somehow I still manage to maintain no question of my authority where it applies. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Brevity is appropriate for radio communications I get corrected when addressing Army SOF by rank after the first intro too... |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 9:45:29 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm fairly certain Senior is now an approved term of address for SMSgts "Though airmen were previously not allowed to address E-8s as "senior" per the 2009 AFI, some units have been slowly phasing the practice in an effort to honor higher-ranking enlisted leaders." |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 9:49:51 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
EOD is a different animal altogether. I get corrected when addressing Army SOF by rank after the first intro too... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: Brevity is appropriate for radio communications I get corrected when addressing Army SOF by rank after the first intro too... |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 9:58:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Certainly not unheard of. An active duty LCpl I graduated with at Infantry Training School in 1984 had a masters degree. I had a good Platoon Sergeant (an E-5) with a PhD in nuclear physics from MIT when I was with D Co. 4th Recon Bn in the mid-'80s. I had Inter Unit Transferred to a different unit long before ODS Kuwait was invaded, but I understand he was commissioned as a 1st Lt. before deploying because the company needed officers. He got out but still works for Los Alamos Nuclear labs on the civilian side. He enlisted in 1983 after earning his PhD, and the general fuckery that his Drill Instructor must have put him through once they found out he was a nuclear scientist must have been epic... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Isn't there a word for enlisted guys with college degrees? Oh. That's right. It's "officer". I had a good Platoon Sergeant (an E-5) with a PhD in nuclear physics from MIT when I was with D Co. 4th Recon Bn in the mid-'80s. I had Inter Unit Transferred to a different unit long before ODS Kuwait was invaded, but I understand he was commissioned as a 1st Lt. before deploying because the company needed officers. He got out but still works for Los Alamos Nuclear labs on the civilian side. He enlisted in 1983 after earning his PhD, and the general fuckery that his Drill Instructor must have put him through once they found out he was a nuclear scientist must have been epic... |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 10:05:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't there a word for enlisted guys with college degrees? Oh. That's right. It's "officer". |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 10:05:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To me that seems retarded as hell? If you have a 4 year degree then the last damn thing you want to be doing is enlisted work. And the MOST important....When that 20 year retirement is drawn, compare an E7 to an 05 and holla at me....For the rest of your life. Ultimately, it's about the retirement once you're past 4 years and decide to stay in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I have a Sergeant with a law degree that would disagree with you...and a couple Gunny's with degrees. A few SSgts for that matter as well. If you have a 4 year degree then the last damn thing you want to be doing is enlisted work. And the MOST important....When that 20 year retirement is drawn, compare an E7 to an 05 and holla at me....For the rest of your life. Ultimately, it's about the retirement once you're past 4 years and decide to stay in. -Most guys don't come in with degrees. They get them while in. -Once you have a degree, at least in the Marines- the road to becoming an officer is a LONG one. Approval process can take months to a year. IF you're accepted then 6-12 weeks of OCS being treated worse than a recruit. 6 months of TBS. Then MOS school which is generally 3-12 months. It's a very long pipeline and not everyone wants to do it. -You can't choose your MOS in most cases. If you love being...say, PMO and you think you're going to be a PMO officer I have some bad news for you. -The work is TOTALLY different. Many guys simply do not want to be an officer. That's okay. -Not everyone is cut out for it. That's okay too. -The last thing we need are a bunch of officers who think "ultimately it's about retirement" coming into the officer ranks. Bottom line, just because you have a degree doesn't mean you should be an officer, or that you should feel bad staying enlisted. I had another Sgt with an English degree. Dude would write awards for the Marines that I could just sign or forward with no corrections. He taught all his guys how to prepare documents so I didn't have to kick them back repeatedly. I loved that guy. The Marine with the law degree actually did an internship with the NRA-ILA and is a super good guy. No desire to be an O. That's okay. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 11:07:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nowhere in the Army, not even in the poguest of theater finance units or TRADOC schools, is a Sergeant First Class on par with a buck Sergeant, or so on. Rank sensitivity is often higher in such units, as it becomes a crutch for the cliche “I’m not really qualified to be in this position, but I can pull rank” NCO you often see in such places. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: Brevity is appropriate for radio communications I get corrected when addressing Army SOF by rank after the first intro too... 
In TRADOC's realm, a Sergeant First Class isn't officially or doctrinally respected any more (and probably a lot less when you think about it) than an E-5 in the operating forces, and I know because I've attended Army TRADOC schools-to include the now-defunct ANOC for SFCs. How many USMC schools have you graduated from? Institutionally, Marine Corporals in the fleet are treated with more respect by their subordinates and seniors than Army SSGs or even the poor Army Drill Sergeants in an official school environment that are required to mow grass or use a weed eater in their Army Drill Sergeant covers in front of Army Basic Trainees because the thought of using those same trainees to engage in menial tasks during basic training horrifies weak-ass CSMs assigned to lead TRADOC commands. TRADOC *should* be establishing the standard for leadership / personnel management, but they do so in a way that makes the rest of us looking in from the outside scratch our heads, and that's very unfortunate because there are a lot of good Soldiers out there that make the Army a great institution in spite of itself. Sorry. I guess that's what you get when the shitbags nobody wants end up as instructors at TRADOC schools, and they then become the yardstick for "institutional excellence"... |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 11:28:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh Lord, "TRADOC"
In TRADOC's realm, a Sergeant First Class isn't officially or doctrinally respected any more (and probably a lot less when you think about it) than an E-5 in the operating forces, and I know because I've attended Army TRADOC schools-to include the now-defunct ANOC for SFCs. How many USMC schools have you graduated from? Institutionally, Marine Corporals in the fleet are treated with more respect by their subordinates and seniors than Army SSGs or even the poor Army Drill Sergeants in an official school environment that are required to mow grass or use a weed eater in their Army Drill Sergeant covers in front of Army Basic Trainees because the thought of using those same trainees to engage in menial tasks during basic training horrifies weak-ass CSMs assigned to lead TRADOC commands. TRADOC *should* be establishing the standard for leadership / personnel management, but they do so in a way that makes the rest of us looking in from the outside scratch our heads, and that's very unfortunate because there are a lot of good Soldiers out there that make the Army a great institution in spite of itself. Sorry. I guess that's what you get when the shitbags nobody wants end up as instructors at TRADOC schools, and they then become the yardstick for "institutional excellence"... No. And this is not really, nor has it ever been, about terms of address, is it? |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 11:52:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I completely and 100% disagree- for numerous reasons. -Most guys don't come in with degrees. They get them while in. -Once you have a degree, at least in the Marines- the road to becoming an officer is a LONG one. Approval process can take months to a year. IF you're accepted then 6-12 weeks of OCS being treated worse than a recruit. 6 months of TBS. Then MOS school which is generally 3-12 months. It's a very long pipeline and not everyone wants to do it. -You can't choose your MOS in most cases. If you love being...say, PMO and you think you're going to be a PMO officer I have some bad news for you. -The work is TOTALLY different. Many guys simply do not want to be an officer. That's okay. -Not everyone is cut out for it. That's okay too. -The last thing we need are a bunch of officers who think "ultimately it's about retirement" coming into the officer ranks. Bottom line, just because you have a degree doesn't mean you should be an officer, or that you should feel bad staying enlisted. I had another Sgt with an English degree. Dude would write awards for the Marines that I could just sign or forward with no corrections. He taught all his guys how to prepare documents so I didn't have to kick them back repeatedly. I loved that guy. The Marine with the law degree actually did an internship with the NRA-ILA and is a super good guy. No desire to be an O. That's okay. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: I have a Sergeant with a law degree that would disagree with you...and a couple Gunny's with degrees. A few SSgts for that matter as well. If you have a 4 year degree then the last damn thing you want to be doing is enlisted work. And the MOST important....When that 20 year retirement is drawn, compare an E7 to an 05 and holla at me....For the rest of your life. Ultimately, it's about the retirement once you're past 4 years and decide to stay in. -Most guys don't come in with degrees. They get them while in. -Once you have a degree, at least in the Marines- the road to becoming an officer is a LONG one. Approval process can take months to a year. IF you're accepted then 6-12 weeks of OCS being treated worse than a recruit. 6 months of TBS. Then MOS school which is generally 3-12 months. It's a very long pipeline and not everyone wants to do it. -You can't choose your MOS in most cases. If you love being...say, PMO and you think you're going to be a PMO officer I have some bad news for you. -The work is TOTALLY different. Many guys simply do not want to be an officer. That's okay. -Not everyone is cut out for it. That's okay too. -The last thing we need are a bunch of officers who think "ultimately it's about retirement" coming into the officer ranks. Bottom line, just because you have a degree doesn't mean you should be an officer, or that you should feel bad staying enlisted. I had another Sgt with an English degree. Dude would write awards for the Marines that I could just sign or forward with no corrections. He taught all his guys how to prepare documents so I didn't have to kick them back repeatedly. I loved that guy. The Marine with the law degree actually did an internship with the NRA-ILA and is a super good guy. No desire to be an O. That's okay.
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Posted: 2/19/2020 12:02:59 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That Sgt must not be an 03.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: I have a Sergeant with a law degree that would disagree with you...and a couple Gunny's with degrees. A few SSgts for that matter as well. If you have a 4 year degree then the last damn thing you want to be doing is enlisted work. And the MOST important....When that 20 year retirement is drawn, compare an E7 to an 05 and holla at me....For the rest of your life. Ultimately, it's about the retirement once you're past 4 years and decide to stay in. -Most guys don't come in with degrees. They get them while in. -Once you have a degree, at least in the Marines- the road to becoming an officer is a LONG one. Approval process can take months to a year. IF you're accepted then 6-12 weeks of OCS being treated worse than a recruit. 6 months of TBS. Then MOS school which is generally 3-12 months. It's a very long pipeline and not everyone wants to do it. -You can't choose your MOS in most cases. If you love being...say, PMO and you think you're going to be a PMO officer I have some bad news for you. -The work is TOTALLY different. Many guys simply do not want to be an officer. That's okay. -Not everyone is cut out for it. That's okay too. -The last thing we need are a bunch of officers who think "ultimately it's about retirement" coming into the officer ranks. Bottom line, just because you have a degree doesn't mean you should be an officer, or that you should feel bad staying enlisted. I had another Sgt with an English degree. Dude would write awards for the Marines that I could just sign or forward with no corrections. He taught all his guys how to prepare documents so I didn't have to kick them back repeatedly. I loved that guy. The Marine with the law degree actually did an internship with the NRA-ILA and is a super good guy. No desire to be an O. That's okay.
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Posted: 2/19/2020 12:08:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct Theres no time for college in the grunts |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 12:20:59 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Figured so. Theres no time for college in the grunts Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Correct Theres no time for college in the grunts My point isn't really that it's a feasible goal (it's not realistic for many, grunt or not) just that there's lots of reasons why someone with a college degree may not want to be an officer. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 7:33:50 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To me that seems retarded as hell? If you have a 4 year degree then the last damn thing you want to be doing is enlisted work. And the MOST important....When that 20 year retirement is drawn, compare an E7 to an 05 and holla at me....For the rest of your life. Ultimately, it's about the retirement once you're past 4 years and decide to stay in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I have a Sergeant with a law degree that would disagree with you...and a couple Gunny's with degrees. A few SSgts for that matter as well. If you have a 4 year degree then the last damn thing you want to be doing is enlisted work. And the MOST important....When that 20 year retirement is drawn, compare an E7 to an 05 and holla at me....For the rest of your life. Ultimately, it's about the retirement once you're past 4 years and decide to stay in. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 7:57:25 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To me that seems retarded as hell? If you have a 4 year degree then the last damn thing you want to be doing is enlisted work. And the MOST important....When that 20 year retirement is drawn, compare an E7 to an 05 and holla at me....For the rest of your life. Ultimately, it's about the retirement once you're past 4 years and decide to stay in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I have a Sergeant with a law degree that would disagree with you...and a couple Gunny's with degrees. A few SSgts for that matter as well. If you have a 4 year degree then the last damn thing you want to be doing is enlisted work. And the MOST important....When that 20 year retirement is drawn, compare an E7 to an 05 and holla at me....For the rest of your life. Ultimately, it's about the retirement once you're past 4 years and decide to stay in. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 3:10:15 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm fairly certain Senior is now an approved term of address for SMSgts |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 7:11:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AF continues to steal from the Navy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I'm fairly certain Senior is now an approved term of address for SMSgts
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Posted: 2/19/2020 7:16:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And we thank you for your help. We never could have figured out “Senior” from “Senior Master Sergeant” without you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: I'm fairly certain Senior is now an approved term of address for SMSgts
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Posted: 2/19/2020 9:15:53 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Next he's gonna tell us we can call Chief Master Sergeants just "Chief" |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 9:20:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds great, just match E4 pay with O1 and we’re good.
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Posted: 2/19/2020 9:30:57 PM EDT
[#30]
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Call one of our E9s just "Chief" though... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Next he's gonna tell us we can call Chief Master Sergeants just "Chief" |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 1:57:52 AM EDT
[#31]
I work with an AD3 (Navy jet engine mechanic) that has an Industrial Psychology Masters from a very good SoCal university.
He joined the Navy to help pay off his student loans and to get money to back to school to become an industrial clinical psychologist and get his PhD. He's really good at fucking with people he does not like.
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Posted: 2/20/2020 2:22:24 AM EDT
[#32]
Might be the circle I’m in...Active duty USAF...but I’d say 90% of the people in my squadron have a BA or higher. Probably upwards of 40-50% have a graduate degree (and thats only counting enlisted). I know one person who doesn’t have a CCAF. One.
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Posted: 2/20/2020 2:34:32 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To me that seems retarded as hell? If you have a 4 year degree then the last damn thing you want to be doing is enlisted work. And the MOST important....When that 20 year retirement is drawn, compare an E7 to an 05 and holla at me....For the rest of your life. Ultimately, it's about the retirement once you're past 4 years and decide to stay in. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 2:39:46 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was ANCOC. No. And this is not really, nor has it ever been, about terms of address, is it? What did they replace ANCOC with? |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 2:48:17 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Best of the best of the best, sir! With honors. 
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Posted: 2/20/2020 10:17:36 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been out for a while now. What did they replace ANCOC with? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It was ANCOC. No. And this is not really, nor has it ever been, about terms of address, is it? What did they replace ANCOC with? |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 1:23:27 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Might be the circle I’m in...Active duty USAF...but I’d say 90% of the people in my squadron have a BA or higher. Probably upwards of 40-50% have a graduate degree (and thats only counting enlisted). I know one person who doesn’t have a CCAF. One. Hmm, Virginia...acquisition and financial management? |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 1:28:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sgt Maj., please put down the crack pipe. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 1:37:40 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I completely and 100% disagree- for numerous reasons. -Most guys don't come in with degrees. They get them while in. -Once you have a degree, at least in the Marines- the road to becoming an officer is a LONG one. Approval process can take months to a year. IF you're accepted then 6-12 weeks of OCS being treated worse than a recruit. 6 months of TBS. Then MOS school which is generally 3-12 months. It's a very long pipeline and not everyone wants to do it. -You can't choose your MOS in most cases. If you love being...say, PMO and you think you're going to be a PMO officer I have some bad news for you. -The work is TOTALLY different. Many guys simply do not want to be an officer. That's okay. -Not everyone is cut out for it. That's okay too. -The last thing we need are a bunch of officers who think "ultimately it's about retirement" coming into the officer ranks. Bottom line, just because you have a degree doesn't mean you should be an officer, or that you should feel bad staying enlisted. I had another Sgt with an English degree. Dude would write awards for the Marines that I could just sign or forward with no corrections. He taught all his guys how to prepare documents so I didn't have to kick them back repeatedly. I loved that guy. The Marine with the law degree actually did an internship with the NRA-ILA and is a super good guy. No desire to be an O. That's okay. Four letters....R.O.T.C...Let the military pay for your four year degree and draw tens of thousands of extra dollars in lifetime benefits. Wearing your body out for 20 years in combat arms as an enlisted soldier is a poor use of your body's limited resources. I worked LE/Corrections for 20 years....I could have stayed a entry level officer while I was serving on CERT...However, I listened to older and wiser officers who told me to rank up....I did.. I worked to the highest uniform rank possible, (Captain), and I retired with 20 years. If I had stayed and done all of the fun shit as an entry level guy, my retirement would probably be half of what it is now. Same principle applies equally to military careers as well as LE, etc. I agree, that everyone cannot be an officer, but I think you should always strive for it if you have the potential. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 1:40:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The way the Guard bounces officers all over the state on a whim, it made more sense for me to stay enlisted. Besides, officer work above the company level never had the appearance of having any joy to it |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 1:43:14 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, I disagree 100% with you. Four letters....R.O.T.C...Let the military pay for your four year degree and draw tens of thousands of extra dollars in lifetime benefits. Wearing your body out for 20 years in combat arms as an enlisted soldier is a poor use of your body's limited resources. I worked LE/Corrections for 20 years....I could have stayed a entry level officer while I was serving on CERT...However, I listened to older and wiser officers who told me to rank up....I did.. I worked to the highest uniform rank possible, (Captain), and I retired with 20 years. If I had stayed and done all of the fun shit as an entry level guy, my retirement would probably be half of what it is now. Same principle applies equally to military careers as well as LE, etc. I agree, that everyone cannot be an officer, but I think you should always strive for it if you have the potential. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I completely and 100% disagree- for numerous reasons. -Most guys don't come in with degrees. They get them while in. -Once you have a degree, at least in the Marines- the road to becoming an officer is a LONG one. Approval process can take months to a year. IF you're accepted then 6-12 weeks of OCS being treated worse than a recruit. 6 months of TBS. Then MOS school which is generally 3-12 months. It's a very long pipeline and not everyone wants to do it. -You can't choose your MOS in most cases. If you love being...say, PMO and you think you're going to be a PMO officer I have some bad news for you. -The work is TOTALLY different. Many guys simply do not want to be an officer. That's okay. -Not everyone is cut out for it. That's okay too. -The last thing we need are a bunch of officers who think "ultimately it's about retirement" coming into the officer ranks. Bottom line, just because you have a degree doesn't mean you should be an officer, or that you should feel bad staying enlisted. I had another Sgt with an English degree. Dude would write awards for the Marines that I could just sign or forward with no corrections. He taught all his guys how to prepare documents so I didn't have to kick them back repeatedly. I loved that guy. The Marine with the law degree actually did an internship with the NRA-ILA and is a super good guy. No desire to be an O. That's okay. Four letters....R.O.T.C...Let the military pay for your four year degree and draw tens of thousands of extra dollars in lifetime benefits. Wearing your body out for 20 years in combat arms as an enlisted soldier is a poor use of your body's limited resources. I worked LE/Corrections for 20 years....I could have stayed a entry level officer while I was serving on CERT...However, I listened to older and wiser officers who told me to rank up....I did.. I worked to the highest uniform rank possible, (Captain), and I retired with 20 years. If I had stayed and done all of the fun shit as an entry level guy, my retirement would probably be half of what it is now. Same principle applies equally to military careers as well as LE, etc. I agree, that everyone cannot be an officer, but I think you should always strive for it if you have the potential. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 1:49:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who said you have to do 20 years in combat arms? I said, and you agree- not everyone should be an officer, and if your main goal is a good retirement you really shouldn't be an officer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: I completely and 100% disagree- for numerous reasons. -Most guys don't come in with degrees. They get them while in. -Once you have a degree, at least in the Marines- the road to becoming an officer is a LONG one. Approval process can take months to a year. IF you're accepted then 6-12 weeks of OCS being treated worse than a recruit. 6 months of TBS. Then MOS school which is generally 3-12 months. It's a very long pipeline and not everyone wants to do it. -You can't choose your MOS in most cases. If you love being...say, PMO and you think you're going to be a PMO officer I have some bad news for you. -The work is TOTALLY different. Many guys simply do not want to be an officer. That's okay. -Not everyone is cut out for it. That's okay too. -The last thing we need are a bunch of officers who think "ultimately it's about retirement" coming into the officer ranks. Bottom line, just because you have a degree doesn't mean you should be an officer, or that you should feel bad staying enlisted. I had another Sgt with an English degree. Dude would write awards for the Marines that I could just sign or forward with no corrections. He taught all his guys how to prepare documents so I didn't have to kick them back repeatedly. I loved that guy. The Marine with the law degree actually did an internship with the NRA-ILA and is a super good guy. No desire to be an O. That's okay. Four letters....R.O.T.C...Let the military pay for your four year degree and draw tens of thousands of extra dollars in lifetime benefits. Wearing your body out for 20 years in combat arms as an enlisted soldier is a poor use of your body's limited resources. I worked LE/Corrections for 20 years....I could have stayed a entry level officer while I was serving on CERT...However, I listened to older and wiser officers who told me to rank up....I did.. I worked to the highest uniform rank possible, (Captain), and I retired with 20 years. If I had stayed and done all of the fun shit as an entry level guy, my retirement would probably be half of what it is now. Same principle applies equally to military careers as well as LE, etc. I agree, that everyone cannot be an officer, but I think you should always strive for it if you have the potential. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 1:54:50 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who said you have to do 20 years in combat arms? I said, and you agree- not everyone should be an officer, and if your main goal is a good retirement you really shouldn't be an officer. *very few enlisted actually make it to retirement. Of those that do, the overwhelming majority (AF, at least) retire at MSgt (E-7). I know the promotion rate hits a pretty substantial wall at Col (O-6), so I'm guessing at the O-5 number. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 2:06:22 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If your main goal is a good retirement, you really shouldn’t be in the military. I’ll bet Sevensteps is taking in far more than any military guy retired at 20. And yes, a 20 year retirement with full benefits is a huge draw to enter active duty military. If you have leadership and organizational skills and are accepted into ROTC, then why would anyone go into the US military as an E-anything? Private E2 annual salary: $23,000 2nd Lieutenant annual salary: $40,000 That's almost double and that's the first year alone...Multiply that by 20 and then lifetime retirement draw based on Officer's ending retirement salary. ROTC= basically free four year degree and a hug bump in pay for an 01 from an E2. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 2:10:55 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was with you right up until the end. At the point I retired (E-9) I was making about the same as a senior captain (O-3). Didn't take long for that 0-3 to outstrip me though at the (almost automatic, but that may have changed) bump to O-4, and as the majority of officers retire* at about O-5 they're pulling a lot more retirement. *very few enlisted actually make it to retirement. Of those that do, the overwhelming majority (AF, at least) retire at MSgt (E-7). I know the promotion rate hits a pretty substantial wall at Col (O-6), so I'm guessing at the O-5 number. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Who said you have to do 20 years in combat arms? I said, and you agree- not everyone should be an officer, and if your main goal is a good retirement you really shouldn't be an officer. *very few enlisted actually make it to retirement. Of those that do, the overwhelming majority (AF, at least) retire at MSgt (E-7). I know the promotion rate hits a pretty substantial wall at Col (O-6), so I'm guessing at the O-5 number. Those are usually the buddy fucking officers everyone hates. I'm not saying it's not a consideration, because it obviously is, but if it's "the most important thing" like sevensteps said, then we don't need you. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 2:18:15 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I doubt that, as I worked for a state that had a lower pay rate than many northeastern and western states. And yes, a 20 year retirement with full benefits is a huge draw to enter active duty military. If you have leadership and organizational skills and are accepted into ROTC, then why would anyone go into the US military as an E-anything? Private E2 annual salary: $23,000 2nd Lieutenant annual salary: $40,000 That's almost double and that's the first year alone...Multiply that by 20 and then lifetime retirement draw based on Officer's ending retirement salary. ROTC= basically free four year degree and a hug bump in pay for an 01 from an E2. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: If your main goal is a good retirement, you really shouldn’t be in the military. I’ll bet Sevensteps is taking in far more than any military guy retired at 20. And yes, a 20 year retirement with full benefits is a huge draw to enter active duty military. If you have leadership and organizational skills and are accepted into ROTC, then why would anyone go into the US military as an E-anything? Private E2 annual salary: $23,000 2nd Lieutenant annual salary: $40,000 That's almost double and that's the first year alone...Multiply that by 20 and then lifetime retirement draw based on Officer's ending retirement salary. ROTC= basically free four year degree and a hug bump in pay for an 01 from an E2. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 2:19:12 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree with you, but I think you misunderstood what I mean- I mean if you say to yourself "I'm going to be an officer because the retirement is better" then you probably aren't the type of person we need to be in a role like that. Those are usually the buddy fucking officers everyone hates. I'm not saying it's not a consideration, because it obviously is, but if it's "the most important thing" like sevensteps said, then we don't need you. Hard to imagine anyone doing 20+ years, officer or enlisted, for the retirement. It would take a superhuman tolerance for abuse. Guess they're out there, but I don't remember seeing many in the "O" ranks. On the other hand, in the Air Force at least, ROAD (retired on active duty) is a very real thing in the enlisted ranks. E-9 assignments are hand-massaged...the year before I retired the personnel office used one set of orders to Korea (there were no vols) to retire out 25+ high time on station chiefs... ETA: there's also a saying...there are E-9s, and there are chiefs. Commanders have a very low tolerance for E-9s. They tend to do the minimum time-in-grade requirement before being strongly "encouraged" to retire. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 2:20:25 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're right, I read it quickly and did misunderstand. Hard to imagine anyone doing 20+ years, officer or enlisted, for the retirement. It would take a superhuman tolerance for abuse. Guess they're out there, but I don't remember seeing many in the "O" ranks. On the other hand, in the Air Force at least, ROAD (retired on active duty) is a very real thing in the enlisted ranks. E-9 assignments are hand-massaged...the year before I retired the personnel office used one set of orders to Korea (there were no vols) to retire out 25+ high time on station chiefs... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I agree with you, but I think you misunderstood what I mean- I mean if you say to yourself "I'm going to be an officer because the retirement is better" then you probably aren't the type of person we need to be in a role like that. Those are usually the buddy fucking officers everyone hates. I'm not saying it's not a consideration, because it obviously is, but if it's "the most important thing" like sevensteps said, then we don't need you. Hard to imagine anyone doing 20+ years, officer or enlisted, for the retirement. It would take a superhuman tolerance for abuse. Guess they're out there, but I don't remember seeing many in the "O" ranks. On the other hand, in the Air Force at least, ROAD (retired on active duty) is a very real thing in the enlisted ranks. E-9 assignments are hand-massaged...the year before I retired the personnel office used one set of orders to Korea (there were no vols) to retire out 25+ high time on station chiefs...
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Posted: 2/20/2020 2:24:28 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I gave you a bunch of reasons why someone may pass on that deal but you ignored. Four of those reasons incorrectly assume that the soldier has already enlisted...I said DON'T ENLIST. And you ignored what I said...Here it is again: "R.O.T.C." That's a 100% paid for four year degree...Add in ECP and you can retire at 40 years old with a degree and a hell of a retirement and health care plan. Then once out, work on another retirement, start a business or whatever else you want to do. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 2:29:40 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, what you did was give seven bullet pointed "reasons". Four of those reasons incorrectly assume that the soldier has already enlisted...I said DON'T ENLIST. And you ignored what I said...Here it is again: "R.O.T.C." That's a 100% paid for four year degree...Add in ECP and you can retire at 40 years old with a degree and a hell of a retirement and health care plan. Then once out, work on another retirement, start a business or whatever else you want to do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I gave you a bunch of reasons why someone may pass on that deal but you ignored. Four of those reasons incorrectly assume that the soldier has already enlisted...I said DON'T ENLIST. And you ignored what I said...Here it is again: "R.O.T.C." That's a 100% paid for four year degree...Add in ECP and you can retire at 40 years old with a degree and a hell of a retirement and health care plan. Then once out, work on another retirement, start a business or whatever else you want to do. I didn't "incorrectly" assume anything, I gave you reasons why someone who had already enlisted may not want to go officer. You can enlist and still get a degree 100% paid for, while also getting paid as an E5, so the "free college" point is moot. |
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