Thoughts on Religious Knowledge (Page 3 of 4)
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"And this is I think a direct allusion to Baptism. Baptism that makes us into God's sons and daughters." Fr. Mike https://youtu.be/X6cFzistxNE?si=GN3tVpjSxti0t5ac&t=1015 2 Kings 5 King James Version 9 So Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha. 10 And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean. 11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the Lord his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean? 14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean. 15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant. 16 But he said, As the Lord liveth, before whom I stand, I will receive none. And he urged him to take it; but he refused. 17 And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the Lord. 18 In this thing the Lord pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon thy servant in this thing. 19 And he said unto him, Go in peace. So he departed from him a little way. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%205&version=KJV |
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This is an utterly fruitless conversation. If they get to just Newspeak their way around how the deposit of faith interprets the passages that are contrary to their theology, we ultimately cannot compete with that. Nor should we try to. We reduce ourselves by entertaining such sophistry. They have made up their minds and we're not the ones they will answer to, anyway. |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: When the word "Baptize" is used in Scripture it is not always refering to water, Matt 3:11 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Romans 6:3 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Acts: 1:5 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Men Baptize with water, but another man getting you wet in some way cannot possibly wash your sin away. Only the Blood of Jesus can take away your sin, you need to be Baptized with the Holy Spirit, or as Paul said, Baptized into Christ. Rom 6:3 Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By brianm: I mean Scripture literally says it does. "this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you" "It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" Scripture says that baptism washes away your sin. 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts2 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name. Acts22:16 When the word "Baptize" is used in Scripture it is not always refering to water, Matt 3:11 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Romans 6:3 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Acts: 1:5 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Men Baptize with water, but another man getting you wet in some way cannot possibly wash your sin away. Only the Blood of Jesus can take away your sin, you need to be Baptized with the Holy Spirit, or as Paul said, Baptized into Christ. Rom 6:3 Man, I'm always blown away by how sacrilegious these guys can be about all sorts of holy things, be it the Lord's Supper, Baptism, the Theotokos, etc. I've heard one semi-famous evangelical on YouTube call our sacred baptism "just a bath." But yes, baptism being correctly applied to someone does wash away sins. Scripture literally says so, it's in the very post you quoted. I'm not sure what I can say when you go beyond ignoring it, but blatantly rejecting it outright. |
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Originally Posted By brianm: Man, I'm always blown away by how sacrilegious these guys can be about all sorts of holy things, be it the Lord's Supper, Baptism, the Theotokos, etc. I propose we actually talk about the Holy Mother instead. For one thing, it's a lot more interesting, as for us Anglicans the dogmas about her fall within the bounds of pious opinion. So how important is it to believe the dogmas? They seem to come from the Pope rather than the Magisterium. Is accepting them seen as a general requirement for entering the Kingdom of Heaven? What happens if someone looks at the dogmas and says, "I really don't know..." |
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Originally Posted By brianm: Man, I'm always blown away by how sacrilegious these guys can be about all sorts of holy things, be it the Lord's Supper, Baptism, the Theotokos, etc. I've heard one semi-famous evangelical on YouTube call our sacred baptism "just a bath." But yes, baptism being correctly applied to someone does wash away sins. Scripture literally says so, it's in the very post you quoted. I'm not sure what I can say when you go beyond ignoring it, but blatantly rejecting it outright. Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By brianm: I mean Scripture literally says it does. "this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you" "It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" Scripture says that baptism washes away your sin. 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts2 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name. Acts22:16 When the word "Baptize" is used in Scripture it is not always refering to water, Matt 3:11 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Romans 6:3 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Acts: 1:5 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Men Baptize with water, but another man getting you wet in some way cannot possibly wash your sin away. Only the Blood of Jesus can take away your sin, you need to be Baptized with the Holy Spirit, or as Paul said, Baptized into Christ. Rom 6:3 Man, I'm always blown away by how sacrilegious these guys can be about all sorts of holy things, be it the Lord's Supper, Baptism, the Theotokos, etc. I've heard one semi-famous evangelical on YouTube call our sacred baptism "just a bath." But yes, baptism being correctly applied to someone does wash away sins. Scripture literally says so, it's in the very post you quoted. I'm not sure what I can say when you go beyond ignoring it, but blatantly rejecting it outright. And you did not read what I posted, which literally says that Baptism is not always talking about water. Baptise with water, and Baptise in the Holy Spirit are 2 different experiences. John the baptist is your Saviour. Go talk about Mary with the other guy. Have a nice day |
USMC 77-81 6113
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Originally Posted By 3xpert:And you did not read what I posted, which literally says that Baptism is not always talking about water. Baptise with water, and Baptise in the Holy Spirit are 2 different experiences. John the baptist is your Saviour. Go talk about Mary with the other guy. Have a nice day Are you denying that the Eunuch received the Holy Spirit when he was Baptized with water? You seem to deny important truths in the Bible because they do not match your strange interpretations. What's next, the Holy Spirit did not descend upon Jesus when he was Baptized by John the Baptist with water? |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: Are you denying that Phillip Baptized with water? Are you denying that the Eunuch received the Holy Spirit when he was Baptized with water? You seem to deny important truths in the Bible because they do not match your strange interpretations. What's next, the Holy Spirit did not descend upon Jesus when he was Baptized by John the Baptist with water? Acts 8: 29-39 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. Yes! Phillip baptised the eunech in water. Scripture says so. But the Scriptures also tell us that Philip preached the Gospel to him and the eunech accepted Jesus as his saviour. Verses 30-35 Then! Because of the eunechs faith in Jesus Christ, Phillip baptised him in water. As the lord commanded. But the water did not save him, The eunechs faith in Jesus Christ did. |
USMC 77-81 6113
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: I propose we actually talk about the Holy Mother instead. For one thing, it's a lot more interesting, as for us Anglicans the dogmas about her fall within the bounds of pious opinion. So how important is it to believe the dogmas? They seem to come from the Pope rather than the Magisterium. Is accepting them seen as a general requirement for entering the Kingdom of Heaven? What happens if someone looks at the dogmas and says, "I really don't know..." "Hey everyone, it's Christ's Church. You know that perfectly obedient, grace filled virgin that literally carried God inside her womb? Well, here is some other totally awesome things we know are true about her. By the way, she comes and talks to people every so often. Thank Jesus for our beautiful mother Mary. How blessed are we, amirite?" I don't know man, of all the things we believe as Christians that requires faith ('two of like all of them? on a boat? for how long!?'), believing that the woman that changed our Lord's ministerial timeline so people could have a good time at a wedding is even more extra special seems super easy. But ya, accepting those dogmas to be true is required. I think "I really don't know..." is fine if it's followed with "...but yeah, sure." There are plenty of truths that 'I' don't fully 'know,' but are truths none the less. |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: Are you denying that Phillip Baptized with water? Are you denying that the Eunuch received the Holy Spirit when he was Baptized with water? You seem to deny important truths in the Bible because they do not match your strange interpretations. What's next, the Holy Spirit did not descend upon Jesus when he was Baptized by John the Baptist with water? Are you saying JESUS did not have the Holy Spirit in Him "until" John baptised Him in water? Then, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him? Or, was this a sign of confirmation for John the baptist that JESUS is the One messiah? And, what did Jesus mean when He said you must be "born of" in John 3:5? Born of water and born of the Spirit? Natural water is causing 1/2 the re-birth? |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: I'm following you guys, yes, we are real men. Yes, Jesus is a real man. Jesus Christ has come in a real body (spirit, soul and body). What He says: St John 3:3 DRC1752 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. We are to love like Him. Don't you love Him? St John 7:37-39 DRC1752 And on the last, and great day of the festivity, Jesus stood and cried, saying: If any man thirst, let him come to me, and drink. He that believeth in me, as the scripture saith, Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Now this he said of the Spirit which they should receive, who believed in him: for as yet the Spirit was not given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (His death, burial and resurrection) Remember: Jesus is the Baptizer of the Holy Spirit. What He says: St John 4:14 DRC1752 But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting. St John 4:24 DRC1752 God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth. Read: Those who believe can receive this living water freely. Come to Jesus and receive. Apocalypse 22:17 DRC1752 And the spirit and the bride say: Come. And he that heareth, let him say: Come. And he that thirsteth, let him come: and he that will, let him take the water of life, freely. My friends, He is alive. The Holy Spirit testifies. There is a river, water of life that flows from His throne my friends. Come and see. Maranatha Yes, the water JESUS told us to drink. Or, HE would of told us go dunk in natural water to get it in you. |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: When the word "Baptize" is used in Scripture it is not always refering to water, Matt 3:11 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Romans 6:3 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Acts: 1:5 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Men Baptize with water, but another man getting you wet in some way cannot possibly wash your sin away. Only the Blood of Jesus can take away your sin, you need to be Baptized with the Holy Spirit, or as Paul said, Baptized into Christ. Rom 6:3 Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By brianm: I mean Scripture literally says it does. "this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you" "It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" Scripture says that baptism washes away your sin. 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” Acts2 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name. Acts22:16 When the word "Baptize" is used in Scripture it is not always refering to water, Matt 3:11 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Romans 6:3 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Acts: 1:5 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Men Baptize with water, but another man getting you wet in some way cannot possibly wash your sin away. Only the Blood of Jesus can take away your sin, you need to be Baptized with the Holy Spirit, or as Paul said, Baptized into Christ. Rom 6:3 I want to clear up an apparent misunderstanding. The Church does not and has never claimed that water in itself has the power to wash away sin. In the act of baptizing, the water is the outward sign of an inward grace given by God. We perform the ritual, but it is God who performs the actual baptism. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: Acts 8: 29-39 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. Yes! Phillip baptised the eunech in water. Scripture says so. But the Scriptures also tell us that Philip preached the Gospel to him and the eunech accepted Jesus as his saviour. Verses 30-35 Then! Because of the eunechs faith in Jesus Christ, Phillip baptised him in water. As the lord commanded. But the water did not save him, The eunechs faith in Jesus Christ did. Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: Are you denying that Phillip Baptized with water? Are you denying that the Eunuch received the Holy Spirit when he was Baptized with water? You seem to deny important truths in the Bible because they do not match your strange interpretations. What's next, the Holy Spirit did not descend upon Jesus when he was Baptized by John the Baptist with water? Acts 8: 29-39 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. Yes! Phillip baptised the eunech in water. Scripture says so. But the Scriptures also tell us that Philip preached the Gospel to him and the eunech accepted Jesus as his saviour. Verses 30-35 Then! Because of the eunechs faith in Jesus Christ, Phillip baptised him in water. As the lord commanded. But the water did not save him, The eunechs faith in Jesus Christ did. Both/and/also They aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s like saying you need food to live and you need water to live. You need both but saying one doesn’t suddenly negate the other. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: Jesus did say this, Lets not talk about water baptism, we obviously don't agree on it's purpose. Lets talk about the other side of "and" How is man born of the Holy Spirit? Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: “Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” St John 3:5 Jesus did say this, Lets not talk about water baptism, we obviously don't agree on it's purpose. Lets talk about the other side of "and" How is man born of the Holy Spirit? Are you now going to imply that because I believe water is part of baptism, that I think the Holy Spirit is not? These discussions have always astonished me; watching protestants deconstruct God's gifts to us one after another, remove whole books of scripture, completely ignore the plain text of a multitude of verses, and then have the audacity to browbeat others with what they claim is scriptural authority. It's true that protestantism is necessarily liberal in practice. They must completely liberate themselves from any semblance of outside authority, and in doing so forsake their assemblies to become a church unto their own. You're right, Jesus did say that; now what? |
Give me that old time religion
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I like having these conversations. What is relevant to me at this present time is what God is doing now in His Church. Now. God is working in His Church. The Holy Spirit is teaching us to love one another as Christ loves us. We all disagree/ argue too often and miss it. The OP idea is to know His Love, the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge. Our faith is important to God. It is what pleases Him! Romans 10:17 ..."So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."... We should, and we need to, listen to Him. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. (see John 17) Ephesians 4:13 ..."until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,"... What I have received in God I want to share with others. The good news is that we are free because of what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for each of us personally. No longer slaves to sin, death is defeated. I am free in Him. Thank you, Jesus for your free gift. How do we receive anything from God? Remember: 'Christ in you, the hope of Glory'. Yes, we should all contend for the faith, speaking the truth in love. The world is dying; look around you. Are you making an impact in your personal ministry or sphere of influence? I want to know Him more. Jesus is the Son of Man, He is the Son of God. 1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. --- I'm praying for you, I'm praying for the Church in the city. Pray with me, that all that love the Lord will live in unity, one with Christ. On that day, what will the church look like? I believe it will look like the New Jerusalem - His bride. Maranatha |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS
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Originally Posted By Raidersgone: Are you saying JESUS did not have the Holy Spirit in Him "until" John baptised Him in water? Then, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him? Or, was this a sign of confirmation for John the baptist that JESUS is the One messiah? And, what did Jesus mean when He said you must be "born of" in John 3:5? Born of water and born of the Spirit? Natural water is causing 1/2 the re-birth? Are you saying JESUS did not have the Holy Spirit in Him "until" John baptised Him in water? - No Then, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him? - Yes Or, was this a sign of confirmation for John the baptist that JESUS is the One messiah? - John was already aware. It's clearly stated in the Bible that The Holy Spirit first descended on Mary, and that Elizabeth and John (the Baptist before his birth) were filled with the Holy Spirit when Mary and the unborn Jesus visited them. Since John jumped for joy he probably did not require a descending dove to confirm it years later. He already knew. And, what did Jesus mean when He said you must be "born of" in John 3:5? Born of water and born of the Spirit? "John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." From https://www.catholic.com/bible-navigator/necessity-of-baptism/john35 Catholic Perspective Jesus is speaking to a Jewish leader named Nicodemus who has begun to accept Jesus' authority to speak on behalf of God. When Jesus says that one must be "born anew" or "born from above" to see the kingdom of God, Nicodemus asks how one can be "born again." Jesus answers him with this unmistakable reference to baptism. This reference becomes clearer in the context of the passage, since Jesus and his disciples go and baptize people after this encounter. The Church Fathers unanimously agreed this verse referred to baptismal regeneration." Natural water is causing 1/2 the re-birth? - No Water is used because that is the way Jesus instituted the practice. This explain why years later Phillip and the Eunuch waited until they came upon water in the desert to perform the baptism. That is the way Jesus wanted it done. |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: Are you saying JESUS did not have the Holy Spirit in Him "until" John baptised Him in water? - No Then, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him? - Yes Or, was this a sign of confirmation for John the baptist that JESUS is the One messiah? - John was already aware. It's clearly stated in the Bible that The Holy Spirit first descended on Mary, and that Elizabeth and John (the Baptist before his birth) were filled with the Holy Spirit when Mary and the unborn Jesus visited them. Since John jumped for joy he probably did not require a descending dove to confirm it years later. He already knew. And, what did Jesus mean when He said you must be "born of" in John 3:5? Born of water and born of the Spirit? "John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." From https://www.catholic.com/bible-navigator/necessity-of-baptism/john35 Catholic Perspective Jesus is speaking to a Jewish leader named Nicodemus who has begun to accept Jesus' authority to speak on behalf of God. When Jesus says that one must be "born anew" or "born from above" to see the kingdom of God, Nicodemus asks how one can be "born again." Jesus answers him with this unmistakable reference to baptism. This reference becomes clearer in the context of the passage, since Jesus and his disciples go and baptize people after this encounter. The Church Fathers unanimously agreed this verse referred to baptismal regeneration." Natural water is causing 1/2 the re-birth? - No Water is used because that is the way Jesus instituted the practice. This explain why years later Phillip and the Eunuch waited until they came upon water in the desert to perform the baptism. That is the way Jesus wanted it done. Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: Originally Posted By Raidersgone: Are you saying JESUS did not have the Holy Spirit in Him "until" John baptised Him in water? Then, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him? Or, was this a sign of confirmation for John the baptist that JESUS is the One messiah? And, what did Jesus mean when He said you must be "born of" in John 3:5? Born of water and born of the Spirit? Natural water is causing 1/2 the re-birth? Are you saying JESUS did not have the Holy Spirit in Him "until" John baptised Him in water? - No Then, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him? - Yes Or, was this a sign of confirmation for John the baptist that JESUS is the One messiah? - John was already aware. It's clearly stated in the Bible that The Holy Spirit first descended on Mary, and that Elizabeth and John (the Baptist before his birth) were filled with the Holy Spirit when Mary and the unborn Jesus visited them. Since John jumped for joy he probably did not require a descending dove to confirm it years later. He already knew. And, what did Jesus mean when He said you must be "born of" in John 3:5? Born of water and born of the Spirit? "John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." From https://www.catholic.com/bible-navigator/necessity-of-baptism/john35 Catholic Perspective Jesus is speaking to a Jewish leader named Nicodemus who has begun to accept Jesus' authority to speak on behalf of God. When Jesus says that one must be "born anew" or "born from above" to see the kingdom of God, Nicodemus asks how one can be "born again." Jesus answers him with this unmistakable reference to baptism. This reference becomes clearer in the context of the passage, since Jesus and his disciples go and baptize people after this encounter. The Church Fathers unanimously agreed this verse referred to baptismal regeneration." Natural water is causing 1/2 the re-birth? - No Water is used because that is the way Jesus instituted the practice. This explain why years later Phillip and the Eunuch waited until they came upon water in the desert to perform the baptism. That is the way Jesus wanted it done. St Matthew 3:11 DRC1752 I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire. St John 4:1-2 DRC1752 [1] WHEN Jesus therefore understood that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus maketh more disciples, and baptizeth more than John, [2] (Though Jesus himself did not baptize, but his disciples,) To be clear Jesus Himself did not personally perform water baptisms. He did not do the physical act Himself; His disciples did. Jesus, He is the baptizer of the Holy Spirit and fire. Water baptism under the new covenant was delegated to His followers (see Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples... baptizing them...” in Jesus’s own words). John baptised Jesus in water. Jesus baptises in the Holy Spirit and fire. Have you trusted in the Jesus who came by water and blood? 1 St John 5:6-8 DRC1752 [6] This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. [7] And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. 8 And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one. St John 19:34-35 DRC1752 [34] But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water. [35] And he that saw it, hath given testimony, and his testimony is true. And he knoweth that he saith true; that you also may believe. |
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: I want to clear up an apparent misunderstanding. The Church does not and has never claimed that water in itself has the power to wash away sin. In the act of baptizing, the water is the outward sign of an inward grace given by God. We perform the ritual, but it is God who performs the actual baptism. Yes! Exactly! Water Baptism is the outward sign of what the Holy Spirit is doing in the heart of the believer. The Holy Spirit will bring you to the water. It's what myself and others have been saying, Rom 6: 3-5 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Going under the water implies Christs death and burial, Coming up out of the water implies Christs resurection and a new life in Christ. You better check with what your church and some others have said in this thread about infant baptism. I'm going to remember what you just posted when this comes up again down the road. |
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Are you now going to imply that because I believe water is part of baptism, that I think the Holy Spirit is not? These discussions have always astonished me; watching protestants deconstruct God's gifts to us one after another, remove whole books of scripture, completely ignore the plain text of a multitude of verses, and then have the audacity to browbeat others with what they claim is scriptural authority. It's true that protestantism is necessarily liberal in practice. They must completely liberate themselves from any semblance of outside authority, and in doing so forsake their assemblies to become a church unto their own. You're right, Jesus did say that; now what? Nobody is deconstructing anything, Except for your catechism, which is not Scripture. Water Baptism follows Faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour. To many examples in Scripture to list. If your Saved, then you should be water baptised. Unless you are not able to, like the theif on the cross, he's being executed for some crime he committed. So if your strapped to the electric chair you can still get saved, because its repentance and Faith in Jesus that saves. Not the ceremony of water baptism. I've had enough of this, Have a nice weekend. |
USMC 77-81 6113
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: To be clear Jesus Himself did not personally perform water baptisms. He did not do the physical act Himself; His disciples did. Jesus, He is the baptizer of the Holy Spirit and fire. Water baptism under the new covenant was delegated to His followers (see Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples... baptizing them..." in Jesus's own words). John baptised Jesus in water. Jesus baptises in the Holy Spirit and fire. Have you trusted in the Jesus who came by water and blood? The way you write appears to undermine that. Like, "just ignore what the Apostles and Disciples did, just skip them and go to directly Jesus instead. Skip the step by step instructions Jesus gave for salvation and just go straight to him. You don't have to follow Jesus' instructions." I trust in Jesus. Your tired accusation that my faith in Jesus is lacking feels serpently. |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Jesus Christ left no writings for us. Only a Church. Attached File |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: Yes! Exactly! Water Baptism is the outward sign of what the Holy Spirit is doing in the heart of the believer. The Holy Spirit will bring you to the water. It's what myself and others have been saying, Rom 6: 3-5 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Going under the water implies Christs death and burial, Coming up out of the water implies Christs resurection and a new life in Christ. You better check with what your church and some others have said in this thread about infant baptism. I'm going to remember what you just posted when this comes up again down the road. Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: I want to clear up an apparent misunderstanding. The Church does not and has never claimed that water in itself has the power to wash away sin. In the act of baptizing, the water is the outward sign of an inward grace given by God. We perform the ritual, but it is God who performs the actual baptism. Yes! Exactly! Water Baptism is the outward sign of what the Holy Spirit is doing in the heart of the believer. The Holy Spirit will bring you to the water. It's what myself and others have been saying, Rom 6: 3-5 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Going under the water implies Christs death and burial, Coming up out of the water implies Christs resurection and a new life in Christ. You better check with what your church and some others have said in this thread about infant baptism. I'm going to remember what you just posted when this comes up again down the road. No, you are creating a contradiction of the two where none exists and you’re adding to scripture. |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: Nobody is deconstructing anything, Except for your catechism, which is not Scripture. Water Baptism follows Faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour. To many examples in Scripture to list. If your Saved, then you should be water baptised. Unless you are not able to, like the theif on the cross, he's being executed for some crime he committed. So if your strapped to the electric chair you can still get saved, because its repentance and Faith in Jesus that saves. Not the ceremony of water baptism. I've had enough of this, Have a nice weekend. Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Are you now going to imply that because I believe water is part of baptism, that I think the Holy Spirit is not? These discussions have always astonished me; watching protestants deconstruct God's gifts to us one after another, remove whole books of scripture, completely ignore the plain text of a multitude of verses, and then have the audacity to browbeat others with what they claim is scriptural authority. It's true that protestantism is necessarily liberal in practice. They must completely liberate themselves from any semblance of outside authority, and in doing so forsake their assemblies to become a church unto their own. You're right, Jesus did say that; now what? Nobody is deconstructing anything, Except for your catechism, which is not Scripture. Water Baptism follows Faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour. To many examples in Scripture to list. If your Saved, then you should be water baptised. Unless you are not able to, like the theif on the cross, he's being executed for some crime he committed. So if your strapped to the electric chair you can still get saved, because its repentance and Faith in Jesus that saves. Not the ceremony of water baptism. I've had enough of this, Have a nice weekend. Again, you’ve created an entire system that doesn’t exist anywhere in scripture. Show me where the catechism contradicts scripture. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: To be clear Jesus himself personally instructed his disciples to perform water Baptisms. It is a requirement. The way you write appears to undermine that. Like, "just ignore what the Apostles and Disciples did, just skip them and go to directly Jesus instead. Skip the step by step instructions Jesus gave for salvation and just go straight to him. You don't have to follow Jesus' instructions." I trust in Jesus. Your tired accusation that my faith in Jesus is lacking feels serpently. Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: Originally Posted By Bishop3: To be clear Jesus Himself did not personally perform water baptisms. He did not do the physical act Himself; His disciples did. Jesus, He is the baptizer of the Holy Spirit and fire. Water baptism under the new covenant was delegated to His followers (see Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples... baptizing them..." in Jesus's own words). John baptised Jesus in water. Jesus baptises in the Holy Spirit and fire. Have you trusted in the Jesus who came by water and blood? The way you write appears to undermine that. Like, "just ignore what the Apostles and Disciples did, just skip them and go to directly Jesus instead. Skip the step by step instructions Jesus gave for salvation and just go straight to him. You don't have to follow Jesus' instructions." I trust in Jesus. Your tired accusation that my faith in Jesus is lacking feels serpently. You have misread. Yes, I agree with you. Jesus, He has instructed His disciples to baptize. Believe on HIM. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire! Romans 8:5-7 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Believers are admonished to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. Remember: we wrestle not against flesh and blood... I am not your adversary. I called on the name of the Lord and He came to my rescue. He will never fail. I sought the Lord and He heard and He answered. That's why I trust Him. Jesus is Lord. Read: nothing can separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Nothing can separate 'TangoFoxtrot' from His Love in Christ Jesus. |
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: No, you are creating a contradiction of the two where none exists and you’re adding to scripture. Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: I want to clear up an apparent misunderstanding. The Church does not and has never claimed that water in itself has the power to wash away sin. In the act of baptizing, the water is the outward sign of an inward grace given by God. We perform the ritual, but it is God who performs the actual baptism. Yes! Exactly! Water Baptism is the outward sign of what the Holy Spirit is doing in the heart of the believer. The Holy Spirit will bring you to the water. It's what myself and others have been saying, Rom 6: 3-5 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Going under the water implies Christs death and burial, Coming up out of the water implies Christs resurection and a new life in Christ. You better check with what your church and some others have said in this thread about infant baptism. I'm going to remember what you just posted when this comes up again down the road. No, you are creating a contradiction of the two where none exists and you’re adding to scripture. I agreed with you about what water baptism is, the outward sign of the inward change. Then you tell me I'm wrong and adding to Scripture. Then you want me to tell you how your catechism contradicts Scripture, I don't know how to talk with you, because you change everything you say all the time. That is because your not on the Solid Rock, which is Christ. Even Peter said Jesus is the "Rock/Cornerstone" of the church. The real church of Jesus Christ. Acts 4: 8-12 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. 1 Peter 2: 4-8 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: To be clear Jesus himself personally instructed his disciples to perform water Baptisms. It is a requirement. The way you write appears to undermine that. Like, "just ignore what the Apostles and Disciples did, just skip them and go to directly Jesus instead. Skip the step by step instructions Jesus gave for salvation and just go straight to him. You don't have to follow Jesus' instructions." I trust in Jesus. Your tired accusation that my faith in Jesus is lacking feels serpently. It's a requirement? Then go get water baptised! Oh, you tell people it's a requirement but won't do it your self. |
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I'm delaying Bible study, so I'll just leave a link with more info about Catholic Baptism. It's about 16 pages of easy reading and you can enlarge the pages. https://usccb.cld.bz/Catechism-of-the-Catholic-Church2/332/ |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: I'm delaying Bible study, so I'll just leave a link with more info about Catholic Baptism. It's about 16 pages of easy reading and you can enlarge the pages. https://usccb.cld.bz/Catechism-of-the-Catholic-Church2/332/ The Vatican Communication folks need to get their act together and fix their hyperlinked Catechism site. It's been broken for over a year now. That USCCB alternative is... a poor alternative. It reminds me of that annoying online American Rifleman when that first went digital. |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: Yes! Exactly! Water Baptism is the outward sign of what the Holy Spirit is doing in the heart of the believer. The Holy Spirit will bring you to the water. It's what myself and others have been saying, I’m just thinking, what an odd thing to agree to since you don’t believe it is a sign of what is happening during Baptism, at all. You believe, as far as I can tell, that your ‘baptism’ is an ultimately unnecessary performance, played out with no real effect. Like a skit or a bit of play-acting. Just “another man getting you wet” as you’ve said. Here’s the Baltimore Catechism on what a sign actually is. Man, composed of body and soul, lives in the midst of visible things, deals with them constantly, and gains his knowledge from them. His knowledge of spiritual things depends on the use of his senses. It was fitting, therefore, that the sacraments, which were to bring man the supernatural, spiritual gifts of grace, be instituted by Christ as visible signs which could be perceived by man. * In each of the sacraments there is an outward sign, that is, some external thing or action called the matter, and a set formula of words known as the form. The matter and the form together make up the sign of each sacrament. In the sacrament of Baptism, for example, the matter consists in the water; and in its application to the person being baptized; the form is the sentence: "I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," which is said while the water is being poured. * When the sign is applied to the one who receives the sacrament, it signifies inward grace and has the power of producing it in the soul. The external action performed by the minister of the sacrament is called a sign of the inward grace because it signifies and represents outwardly what is produced inwardly and invisibly in the soul. The sacramental signs actually effect what they represent. In Baptism, for example, the application of the water and the pronouncing of the words are a sign which both represents the cleansing of the soul from sin and actually effects that cleansing. * The sacramental signs were instituted by Christ. Our Lord is the Author of all the sacraments. Only God can give to material things or to outward signs the power of producing grace in the soul * Although Christ instituted all seven sacraments before ascending into heaven, He did not completely specify the matter and form of all the sacraments as clearly and definitely as He did for Baptism and the Eucharist. Christ gave His Church the power to make certain determinations in the matter and form of some of the sacraments. https://www.drbo.org/cat/htm/02023.htm |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: Man is born in sin because of Adam, God made man in His image, which was sinless perfection. After the fall, man is in sin, man's nature changed, man now has a "sin nature". man is condemed from the day he was born. Everyone is always talking about act's of sin, murder, adultery etc. But man sins because it is his nature to do so. Sin is natural to man, man can sin and not know it. Sin is now man's DNA, Because mans heart is wicked. Man needs a new heart, and that can only come about when a man understands that he is a sinner and needs a Saviour. There is nothing man can do within himself to save himself from hell. (even getting water baptised) Man needs to be, as some here have said and experienced, "Born Again" Born from above, Born of God. John 3 Recieving the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit, or as Peter said, the Divine nature. 2 Peter 1: 3-4 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 1 Peter 1: 18-19 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: ^^^ |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: I agreed with you about what water baptism is, the outward sign of the inward change. Then you tell me I'm wrong and adding to Scripture. Then you want me to tell you how your catechism contradicts Scripture, I don't know how to talk with you, because you change everything you say all the time. That is because your not on the Solid Rock, which is Christ. Even Peter said Jesus is the "Rock/Cornerstone" of the church. The real church of Jesus Christ. Acts 4: 8-12 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. 1 Peter 2: 4-8 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: I want to clear up an apparent misunderstanding. The Church does not and has never claimed that water in itself has the power to wash away sin. In the act of baptizing, the water is the outward sign of an inward grace given by God. We perform the ritual, but it is God who performs the actual baptism. Yes! Exactly! Water Baptism is the outward sign of what the Holy Spirit is doing in the heart of the believer. The Holy Spirit will bring you to the water. It's what myself and others have been saying, Rom 6: 3-5 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Going under the water implies Christs death and burial, Coming up out of the water implies Christs resurection and a new life in Christ. You better check with what your church and some others have said in this thread about infant baptism. I'm going to remember what you just posted when this comes up again down the road. No, you are creating a contradiction of the two where none exists and you’re adding to scripture. I agreed with you about what water baptism is, the outward sign of the inward change. Then you tell me I'm wrong and adding to Scripture. Then you want me to tell you how your catechism contradicts Scripture, I don't know how to talk with you, because you change everything you say all the time. That is because your not on the Solid Rock, which is Christ. Even Peter said Jesus is the "Rock/Cornerstone" of the church. The real church of Jesus Christ. Acts 4: 8-12 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. 1 Peter 2: 4-8 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. I’m not changing anything, I’m just taking Jesus at His word and faithfully obeying Him. The ritual matters because He instituted it. |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By brianm: I’m just thinking, what an odd thing to agree to since you don’t believe it is a sign of what is happening during Baptism, at all. You believe, as far as I can tell, that your ‘baptism’ is an ultimately unnecessary performance, played out with no real effect. Like a skit or a bit of play-acting. Just “another man getting you wet” as you’ve said. Here’s the Baltimore Catechism on what a sign actually is. Man, composed of body and soul, lives in the midst of visible things, deals with them constantly, and gains his knowledge from them. His knowledge of spiritual things depends on the use of his senses. It was fitting, therefore, that the sacraments, which were to bring man the supernatural, spiritual gifts of grace, be instituted by Christ as visible signs which could be perceived by man. * In each of the sacraments there is an outward sign, that is, some external thing or action called the matter, and a set formula of words known as the form. The matter and the form together make up the sign of each sacrament. In the sacrament of Baptism, for example, the matter consists in the water; and in its application to the person being baptized; the form is the sentence: "I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," which is said while the water is being poured. * When the sign is applied to the one who receives the sacrament, it signifies inward grace and has the power of producing it in the soul. The external action performed by the minister of the sacrament is called a sign of the inward grace because it signifies and represents outwardly what is produced inwardly and invisibly in the soul. The sacramental signs actually effect what they represent. In Baptism, for example, the application of the water and the pronouncing of the words are a sign which both represents the cleansing of the soul from sin and actually effects that cleansing. * The sacramental signs were instituted by Christ. Our Lord is the Author of all the sacraments. Only God can give to material things or to outward signs the power of producing grace in the soul * Although Christ instituted all seven sacraments before ascending into heaven, He did not completely specify the matter and form of all the sacraments as clearly and definitely as He did for Baptism and the Eucharist. Christ gave His Church the power to make certain determinations in the matter and form of some of the sacraments. https://www.drbo.org/cat/htm/02023.htm Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By 3xpert: Yes! Exactly! Water Baptism is the outward sign of what the Holy Spirit is doing in the heart of the believer. The Holy Spirit will bring you to the water. It's what myself and others have been saying, I’m just thinking, what an odd thing to agree to since you don’t believe it is a sign of what is happening during Baptism, at all. You believe, as far as I can tell, that your ‘baptism’ is an ultimately unnecessary performance, played out with no real effect. Like a skit or a bit of play-acting. Just “another man getting you wet” as you’ve said. Here’s the Baltimore Catechism on what a sign actually is. Man, composed of body and soul, lives in the midst of visible things, deals with them constantly, and gains his knowledge from them. His knowledge of spiritual things depends on the use of his senses. It was fitting, therefore, that the sacraments, which were to bring man the supernatural, spiritual gifts of grace, be instituted by Christ as visible signs which could be perceived by man. * In each of the sacraments there is an outward sign, that is, some external thing or action called the matter, and a set formula of words known as the form. The matter and the form together make up the sign of each sacrament. In the sacrament of Baptism, for example, the matter consists in the water; and in its application to the person being baptized; the form is the sentence: "I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," which is said while the water is being poured. * When the sign is applied to the one who receives the sacrament, it signifies inward grace and has the power of producing it in the soul. The external action performed by the minister of the sacrament is called a sign of the inward grace because it signifies and represents outwardly what is produced inwardly and invisibly in the soul. The sacramental signs actually effect what they represent. In Baptism, for example, the application of the water and the pronouncing of the words are a sign which both represents the cleansing of the soul from sin and actually effects that cleansing. * The sacramental signs were instituted by Christ. Our Lord is the Author of all the sacraments. Only God can give to material things or to outward signs the power of producing grace in the soul * Although Christ instituted all seven sacraments before ascending into heaven, He did not completely specify the matter and form of all the sacraments as clearly and definitely as He did for Baptism and the Eucharist. Christ gave His Church the power to make certain determinations in the matter and form of some of the sacraments. https://www.drbo.org/cat/htm/02023.htm Good morning. First, man is more than a body and a soul. He is spirit, soul and body. Until you come to Jesus by faith you are dead in your trespasses. Remember, "the flesh profits nothing, it is the Spirit who gives life..." You must be born again to see the Kingdom of God. Read: Everything we have in Christ is through His death, burial and resurrection. We are all too funny with all of our rituals and ceremonies we might believe makes us righteous and saves us; this is due only to our ignorance. Jesus, the Son of God—it is He who saved us. After all, He is the Savior. He alone is worthy. Romans 6:3-4 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.” When you encounter Jesus, He changes everything. He gives me new Life. He is alive. Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Colossians 2:11-12 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. Yes, now, when you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That He is the Son of God, that He personally died for your sin, was buried and rose again on the third day. Repent of your sin (change your mind, think differently afterwards). Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. Believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. You are washed in His blood. You will be saved. Because you follow Jesus, you should identify with Him, by making a public profession of your faith in Him. Get baptised, in the strong name of Jesus, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. God has children; they are His family. There are no 'Catholic' or 'Protestant' children of God (lol). There are only born-from-above believers and followers of the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. These are the children of God: them that believe in His name, for they are born of God. John 1:11-13 ESV He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. Jesus saves. By faith I'm holding on to my Savior, He will never fail. Isaiah 41:13 For I, the LORD your God, hold your right hand; it is I who say to you, “Fear not, I am the one who helps you.” |
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Originally Posted By brianm: I’m just thinking, what an odd thing to agree to since you don’t believe it is a sign of what is happening during Baptism, at all. You believe, as far as I can tell, that your ‘baptism’ is an ultimately unnecessary performance, played out with no real effect. Like a skit or a bit of play-acting. Just “another man getting you wet” as you’ve said. Here’s the Baltimore Catechism on what a sign actually is. Man, composed of body and soul, lives in the midst of visible things, deals with them constantly, and gains his knowledge from them. His knowledge of spiritual things depends on the use of his senses. It was fitting, therefore, that the sacraments, which were to bring man the supernatural, spiritual gifts of grace, be instituted by Christ as visible signs which could be perceived by man. * In each of the sacraments there is an outward sign, that is, some external thing or action called the matter, and a set formula of words known as the form. The matter and the form together make up the sign of each sacrament. In the sacrament of Baptism, for example, the matter consists in the water; and in its application to the person being baptized; the form is the sentence: "I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," which is said while the water is being poured. * When the sign is applied to the one who receives the sacrament, it signifies inward grace and has the power of producing it in the soul. The external action performed by the minister of the sacrament is called a sign of the inward grace because it signifies and represents outwardly what is produced inwardly and invisibly in the soul. The sacramental signs actually effect what they represent. In Baptism, for example, the application of the water and the pronouncing of the words are a sign which both represents the cleansing of the soul from sin and actually effects that cleansing. * The sacramental signs were instituted by Christ. Our Lord is the Author of all the sacraments. Only God can give to material things or to outward signs the power of producing grace in the soul * Although Christ instituted all seven sacraments before ascending into heaven, He did not completely specify the matter and form of all the sacraments as clearly and definitely as He did for Baptism and the Eucharist. Christ gave His Church the power to make certain determinations in the matter and form of some of the sacraments. https://www.drbo.org/cat/htm/02023.htm Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By 3xpert: Yes! Exactly! Water Baptism is the outward sign of what the Holy Spirit is doing in the heart of the believer. The Holy Spirit will bring you to the water. It's what myself and others have been saying, I’m just thinking, what an odd thing to agree to since you don’t believe it is a sign of what is happening during Baptism, at all. You believe, as far as I can tell, that your ‘baptism’ is an ultimately unnecessary performance, played out with no real effect. Like a skit or a bit of play-acting. Just “another man getting you wet” as you’ve said. Here’s the Baltimore Catechism on what a sign actually is. Man, composed of body and soul, lives in the midst of visible things, deals with them constantly, and gains his knowledge from them. His knowledge of spiritual things depends on the use of his senses. It was fitting, therefore, that the sacraments, which were to bring man the supernatural, spiritual gifts of grace, be instituted by Christ as visible signs which could be perceived by man. * In each of the sacraments there is an outward sign, that is, some external thing or action called the matter, and a set formula of words known as the form. The matter and the form together make up the sign of each sacrament. In the sacrament of Baptism, for example, the matter consists in the water; and in its application to the person being baptized; the form is the sentence: "I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," which is said while the water is being poured. * When the sign is applied to the one who receives the sacrament, it signifies inward grace and has the power of producing it in the soul. The external action performed by the minister of the sacrament is called a sign of the inward grace because it signifies and represents outwardly what is produced inwardly and invisibly in the soul. The sacramental signs actually effect what they represent. In Baptism, for example, the application of the water and the pronouncing of the words are a sign which both represents the cleansing of the soul from sin and actually effects that cleansing. * The sacramental signs were instituted by Christ. Our Lord is the Author of all the sacraments. Only God can give to material things or to outward signs the power of producing grace in the soul * Although Christ instituted all seven sacraments before ascending into heaven, He did not completely specify the matter and form of all the sacraments as clearly and definitely as He did for Baptism and the Eucharist. Christ gave His Church the power to make certain determinations in the matter and form of some of the sacraments. https://www.drbo.org/cat/htm/02023.htm That's your catechism, not the Bible. What Gullskeig said is the Bible. Water baptism is the outward act of the inward change that is taking place in the heart of the convert becoming a Christian. Anyone described in the Bible who became a believer in Jesus Christ was water Baptized. Faith comes first. Infants cannot believe, nor repent of sin. |
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: I’m not changing anything, I’m just taking Jesus at His word and faithfully obeying Him. The ritual matters because He instituted it. Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: I want to clear up an apparent misunderstanding. The Church does not and has never claimed that water in itself has the power to wash away sin. In the act of baptizing, the water is the outward sign of an inward grace given by God. We perform the ritual, but it is God who performs the actual baptism. Yes! Exactly! Water Baptism is the outward sign of what the Holy Spirit is doing in the heart of the believer. The Holy Spirit will bring you to the water. It's what myself and others have been saying, Rom 6: 3-5 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Going under the water implies Christs death and burial, Coming up out of the water implies Christs resurection and a new life in Christ. You better check with what your church and some others have said in this thread about infant baptism. I'm going to remember what you just posted when this comes up again down the road. No, you are creating a contradiction of the two where none exists and you’re adding to scripture. I agreed with you about what water baptism is, the outward sign of the inward change. Then you tell me I'm wrong and adding to Scripture. Then you want me to tell you how your catechism contradicts Scripture, I don't know how to talk with you, because you change everything you say all the time. That is because your not on the Solid Rock, which is Christ. Even Peter said Jesus is the "Rock/Cornerstone" of the church. The real church of Jesus Christ. Acts 4: 8-12 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. 1 Peter 2: 4-8 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. I’m not changing anything, I’m just taking Jesus at His word and faithfully obeying Him. The ritual matters because He instituted it. I agreed with you, Water Baptism is the out act of the inward change in the heart of the believer. And I posted Scripture from Romans of Paul saying the same things. Then you tell me I'm changing or adding to God's Word. Yes, God instituted it, John the Baptist was a man sent from God, John 1:6 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. There is no such thing as infant Baptism in Scripture, Babies cannot repent or believe, the individual has to make the decision. But in order for you church to justify infant baptism it has to add to God's Word. |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: I agreed with you, Water Baptism is the out act of the inward change in the heart of the believer. And I posted Scripture from Romans of Paul saying the same things. Then you tell me I'm changing or adding to God's Word. Yes, God instituted it, John the Baptist was a man sent from God, John 1:6 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. There is no such thing as infant Baptism in Scripture, Babies cannot repent or believe, the individual has to make the decision. But in order for you church to justify infant baptism it has to add to God's Word. One or two thread? He's just ignorant. Every thread, for years? Oh, he's unable to have an adult conversation. Go ahead and do another long post all of the random disconnected scripture lines that do nothing other than prove you can't even pretend to read what others have posted. It will also never make your rejection the Church, the regenerative and salvific nature of Christian baptism, Biblical. It will never make your inconsistent and self-serving interpretation of what you think the Bible says, Biblical. It will never make the whole "sola scriptura" approach itself, Biblical. |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Good morning. First, man is more than a body and a soul. He is spirit, soul and body. Until you come to Jesus by faith you are dead in your trespasses. Remember, "the flesh profits nothing, it is the Spirit who gives life..." You must be born again to see the Kingdom of God. Read: Everything we have in Christ is through His death, burial and resurrection. We are all too funny with all of our rituals and ceremonies we might believe makes us righteous and saves us; this is due only to our ignorance. Jesus, the Son of God—it is He who saved us. After all, He is the Savior. He alone is worthy. Romans 6:3-4 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.” When you encounter Jesus, He changes everything. He gives me new Life. He is alive. Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Colossians 2:11-12 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. Yes, now, when you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That He is the Son of God, that He personally died for your sin, was buried and rose again on the third day. Repent of your sin (change your mind, think differently afterwards). Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. Believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. You are washed in His blood. You will be saved. Because you follow Jesus, you should identify with Him, by making a public profession of your faith in Him. Get baptised, in the strong name of Jesus, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. God has children; they are His family. There are no 'Catholic' or 'Protestant' children of God (lol). There are only born-from-above believers and followers of the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. These are the children of God: them that believe in His name, for they are born of God. John 1:11-13 ESV He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. Jesus saves. By faith I'm holding on to my Savior, He will never fail. Isaiah 41:13 For I, the LORD your God, hold your right hand; it is I who say to you, “Fear not, I am the one who helps you.” Yes, for by one Spirit we've been baptized into one body. I've been thinking, why does interpretation of being born again of Water and of Spirit cause such a division to the point of what we've seen again and again between catholics/anglicans and everyone else? I think trying to get others to see something from Holy Spirit interpretation that they are not able to see, is the reason hostility comes forth from flesh. That which is born of flesh is flesh. JESUS said HE came not to bring peace but a sword.. Are we contending for the faith from the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT's circumcision of the heart or from flesh through man's religion? Remember GOD is SPIRIT. The scriptures testify of JESUS. HE is the living water. |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: One or two thread? He's just ignorant. Every thread, for years? Oh, he's unable to have an adult conversation. Go ahead and do another long post all of the random disconnected scripture lines that do nothing other than prove you can't even pretend to read what others have posted. It will also never make your rejection the Church, the regenerative and salvific nature of Christian baptism, Biblical. It will never make your inconsistent and self-serving interpretation of what you think the Bible says, Biblical. It will never make the whole "sola scriptura" approach itself, Biblical. Perhaps I should be burned at the stake? 1 Cor 6: 9-11 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. I was most of the above, But notice the word "were" No longer, My sin was washed and taken away by the Blood of Jesus Christ, Then I was water Baptized, It's what a Christian does after getting Saved from sin. The most sinfull time in my life was when I was a catholic and did all things catholic. You are as spiritually deaf, dumb and blind as those statues you talk to. And still dead in your sin. |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: Perhaps I should be burned at the stake? 1 Cor 6: 9-11 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. I was most of the above, But notice the word "were" No longer, My sin was washed and taken away by the Blood of Jesus Christ, Then I was water Baptized, It's what a Christian does after getting Saved from sin. The most sinfull time in my life was when I was a catholic and did all things catholic. You are as spiritually deaf, dumb and blind as those statues you talk to. And still dead in your sin. Originally Posted By 3xpert: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: One or two thread? He's just ignorant. Every thread, for years? Oh, he's unable to have an adult conversation. Go ahead and do another long post all of the random disconnected scripture lines that do nothing other than prove you can't even pretend to read what others have posted. It will also never make your rejection the Church, the regenerative and salvific nature of Christian baptism, Biblical. It will never make your inconsistent and self-serving interpretation of what you think the Bible says, Biblical. It will never make the whole "sola scriptura" approach itself, Biblical. Perhaps I should be burned at the stake? 1 Cor 6: 9-11 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. I was most of the above, But notice the word "were" No longer, My sin was washed and taken away by the Blood of Jesus Christ, Then I was water Baptized, It's what a Christian does after getting Saved from sin. The most sinfull time in my life was when I was a catholic and did all things catholic. You are as spiritually deaf, dumb and blind as those statues you talk to. And still dead in your sin. Believe as you will, but don't claim the scriptures give you the authority to teach this nonsense, while quoting a letter from a duly-commissioned minister of the Church who actually had the authority to teach what he did, and don't try to pretend quoting him in any way justifies your rejection of the very Church he worked in behalf of while you spew your hateful bile against said Church in post after post while professing to be motived by the Holy Spirit. You are oh-so inconsistent in what you demand scriptural passages for, while never offering a single one where a man who claimed personal connection straight to God, rejected Baptism, and had no such commission was ever in a position to preach as you do. Oh wait. I think I maybe I found some. 2 Timothy 4: 3-4 For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths. 2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: That's your catechism, not the Bible. What Gullskeig said is the Bible. Water baptism is the outward act of the inward change that is taking place in the heart of the convert becoming a Christian. Anyone described in the Bible who became a believer in Jesus Christ was water Baptized. Faith comes first. Infants cannot believe, nor repent of sin. You reject Church teaching on baptism. You ignore or dismiss scripture that literally says baptism saves you. Honestly not sure what you follow exactly, except some doctrine passed down from whenever your sect started. |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: We are all too funny with all of our rituals and ceremonies we might believe makes us righteous and saves us; this is due only to our ignorance. Jesus, the Son of God—it is He who saved us. After all, He is the Savior. He alone is worthy. Do you always find those things Jesus instituted, commanded, and said was efficacious to our salvation to be a joke? I find your sacrilegious tone off-putting. I hope you come into the fullness of the truth and repent, as I have. Though I don’t think I ever called baptism or those that follow our Lord’s words and those of His apostles ‘funny.’ Lord forgive me if I did. |
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If the sin of Adam is inherited, it is a pre-existing condition, not a personal fault that suddenly appears when a child commits his first sin. While the Bible does not specify ages of those Baptized, it has instances of households being Baptized because the head of the house, probably the husband, professed faith in Jesus. Household sounds like it includes the wife and children (and probably including babies?), at the very least. So if the father professes the faith then the entire household can be Baptized then and there. Seems like delaying it until each member of the family reaches the "Age of Reason" is non-Biblical. An added modern requirement not in the Bible? There is also no mention(?) of a requirement that any of the other adults have to profess faith, only the head of the household. The assumption must be that he will lead his household in the faith of Jesus from that moment onward. |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Believe as you will, but don't claim the scriptures give you the authority to teach this nonsense, while quoting a letter from a duly-commissioned minister of the Church who actually had the authority to teach what he did, and don't try to pretend quoting him in any way justifies your rejection of the very Church he worked in behalf of while you spew your hateful bile against said Church in post after post while professing to be motived by the Holy Spirit. You are oh-so inconsistent in what you demand scriptural passages for, while never offering a single one where a man who claimed personal connection straight to God, rejected Baptism, and had no such commission was ever in a position to preach as you do. Oh wait. I think I maybe I found some. 2 Timothy 4: 3-4 For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths. 2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. Your church did not come to save you. Jesus did, put your faith in Him and what He has done on the Cross. |
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Originally Posted By brianm: You reject Church teaching on baptism. You ignore or dismiss scripture that literally says baptism saves you. Honestly not sure what you follow exactly, except some doctrine passed down from whenever your sect started. Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By 3xpert: That's your catechism, not the Bible. What Gullskeig said is the Bible. Water baptism is the outward act of the inward change that is taking place in the heart of the convert becoming a Christian. Anyone described in the Bible who became a believer in Jesus Christ was water Baptized. Faith comes first. Infants cannot believe, nor repent of sin. You reject Church teaching on baptism. You ignore or dismiss scripture that literally says baptism saves you. Honestly not sure what you follow exactly, except some doctrine passed down from whenever your sect started. John 1:33 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. There is John who baptises with water, and Jesus who Baptises with the Holy Spirit. Says right there, 2 differnet distinct events. What part of that do you not understand? |
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Originally Posted By 3xpert: John 1:33 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. There is John who baptises with water, and Jesus who Baptises with the Holy Spirit. Says right there, 2 differnet distinct events. What part of that do you not understand? John was not the first to baptize. Ceremonial washing was a thing. This was a figure of the baptism to come that Christ implemented, which as he says, will be with the Holy Spirit. That does NOT say or imply it is to the exclusion of water. In fact, John 3:5 states it will be with water and Spirit. And in John 3:22-26, immediately after His discourse with Nicodemus, Jesus and His disciples go and baptize with water. John's baptism was with water. Jesus' baptism is with water and Spirit. I agree they are not the same thing. That is why Paul had those baptized into Christ Jesus even though they had been baptized by the figure that was John's baptism. 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all. Not sure what your point is here bringing up John's baptism when we are talking about Jesus's baptism. |
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Originally Posted By brianm: John was not the first to baptize. Ceremonial washing was a thing. This was a figure of the baptism to come that Christ implemented, which as he says, will be with the Holy Spirit. That does NOT say or imply it is to the exclusion of water. In fact, John 3:5 states it will be with water and Spirit. And in John 3:22-26, immediately after His discourse with Nicodemus, Jesus and His disciples go and baptize with water. John's baptism was with water. Jesus' baptism is with water and Spirit. I agree they are not the same thing. That is why Paul had those baptized into Christ Jesus even though they had been baptized by the figure that was John's baptism. 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all. Not sure what your point is here bringing up John's baptism when we are talking about Jesus's baptism. Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By 3xpert: John 1:33 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. There is John who baptises with water, and Jesus who Baptises with the Holy Spirit. Says right there, 2 differnet distinct events. What part of that do you not understand? John was not the first to baptize. Ceremonial washing was a thing. This was a figure of the baptism to come that Christ implemented, which as he says, will be with the Holy Spirit. That does NOT say or imply it is to the exclusion of water. In fact, John 3:5 states it will be with water and Spirit. And in John 3:22-26, immediately after His discourse with Nicodemus, Jesus and His disciples go and baptize with water. John's baptism was with water. Jesus' baptism is with water and Spirit. I agree they are not the same thing. That is why Paul had those baptized into Christ Jesus even though they had been baptized by the figure that was John's baptism. 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all. Not sure what your point is here bringing up John's baptism when we are talking about Jesus's baptism. He’s a broken record. This has been broken down for him so many times, that his continued conflation of John’s baptism with Christian trinitarian baptism is no accident. |
History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired