The Holy Rosary, For America (Page 4 of 7)
Joined:
Sep 2024
Posts:
156
EE: 0% (0)
OK, USA
|
Originally Posted By brianm: Do you accept the 73 books the early Church canonized? If not, why are you even appealing to the early Church as authoritative? If yes, they are authoritative, why do you reject many of the beliefs they held to be true, i.e. Mary’s perpetual virginity? My brother, I just go where the Bible takes me. It says what it says and I accept it. It's evident that Jesus's mother, Mary, bore additional children after the birth of Jesus. I accept it at face value. You reject it because it doesn't fit the doctrine of your spiritual leaders in the Vatican. Sorry. I hope we can be friends and brothers in spite of our different doctrinal understanding of Jesus and his church. As Jesus said in the "Great Commandment", the most important things we must do is to love God and love one another. |
|
Originally Posted By Going2Heaven: My brother, I just go where the Bible takes me. It says what it says and I accept it. It's evident that Jesus's mother, Mary, bore additional children after the birth of Jesus. I accept it at face value. You reject it because it doesn't fit the doctrine of your spiritual leaders in the Vatican. Sorry. I hope we can be friends and brothers in spite of our different doctrinal understanding of Jesus and his church. As Jesus said in the "Great Commandment", the most important things we must do is to love God and love one another. Yet you can not provide this evidence. Please answer those questions you have quoted. |
|
Originally Posted By brianm: Your citing of Luke 11 affirms Luke 1. Jesus is saying Mary is blessed for carrying the Lord and for hearing and keeping the word of God. All generations shall call her blessed. Seems like they are calling out to her and calling her blessed. Why should they be praying to Mary because she is blessed? Jesus does say Mary is blessed, but where does he instruct or condone praying to her? How do you derive such an equivalence? Yeah, there is a difference between acknowledging a person's spiritual stature v. elevating them to a spiritual intercessor to be prayed to. |
|
Originally Posted By crux: First born is both literal in practice (in most cases and in accordance with the laws of inheritance) and figurative/honorary such as where Jesus is called first born of creation. But the honor comes when the rightful title is transferred. There should be no objection to understanding Jesus is the first born of Mary literally and legally, except if someone were to suggest she had some other son first, which clearly scripture clearly rejects. But as you say, the impasse comes because we read the same words but take different meaning. Who then is the judge? Is it the man who stands in the place of Christ who has lately said that all religions are a path to god? To which the mystic would agree "The world is like a sheet if paper on which something is writ, the meaning and the reading will vary with the reader". Indeed this is not the first vicar of Christ who contradicts the Catholic faith. And if by demonstration neither he nor any man can be found without potential for or actual error, to whom shall we go? Who will say who has divided the word rightly, and who has brought in doctrines of men or demons. There is one judge who sits in truth, one intercessor for us, who by his one sacrifice bought our salvation, and calls himself the way, the truth, and the life. Through his disciples the gospels were preached and recorded for our edification and understanding. On him and to the scriptures he has caused to be passed down to us must I turn in humility. He will Judge. I know no source on earth to turn to but the scriptures we received, and no judge in heaven or earth than Jesus, and no teacher but the spirit. Originally Posted By crux: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Firstborn son is an honorary title; specifically used when in the context of inheritance, royalty, etc. Again, we are at an impasse because you say scripture means one thing but I say it means another. How is that possible? And how do we solve this? First born is both literal in practice (in most cases and in accordance with the laws of inheritance) and figurative/honorary such as where Jesus is called first born of creation. But the honor comes when the rightful title is transferred. There should be no objection to understanding Jesus is the first born of Mary literally and legally, except if someone were to suggest she had some other son first, which clearly scripture clearly rejects. But as you say, the impasse comes because we read the same words but take different meaning. Who then is the judge? Is it the man who stands in the place of Christ who has lately said that all religions are a path to god? To which the mystic would agree "The world is like a sheet if paper on which something is writ, the meaning and the reading will vary with the reader". Indeed this is not the first vicar of Christ who contradicts the Catholic faith. And if by demonstration neither he nor any man can be found without potential for or actual error, to whom shall we go? Who will say who has divided the word rightly, and who has brought in doctrines of men or demons. There is one judge who sits in truth, one intercessor for us, who by his one sacrifice bought our salvation, and calls himself the way, the truth, and the life. Through his disciples the gospels were preached and recorded for our edification and understanding. On him and to the scriptures he has caused to be passed down to us must I turn in humility. He will Judge. I know no source on earth to turn to but the scriptures we received, and no judge in heaven or earth than Jesus, and no teacher but the spirit. No, the judge is not the sitting pope. This is where the great misunderstanding roots itself. The judge is the deposit of faith, the 2000 year deposit of faith. You don't look to the current sitting steward, you look at the tradition faithfully handed down throughout the generations. That is the entire purpose of tradition, so that a faith isn't a different flavor with every passing generation. |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By crux: He was only the first not successfully burned and had a eventual communication via printing press, and he still held many errors, but exposing the errors between what was practiced and taught in his age, vs. what the received texts if the faith taught. I view Jan Hus as a better man. And Luther would have died the same way. At least though he admitted scripture should be the greater Judge than he. Likewise had nothing changed would I also be consigned to the flames as others were for my 1560 Geneva bible and the others. A blessed respite from the persecution of the saints. ETA: And you needn't wait for Luther, for long before the Christians in the east drew attention to sources of western error, and carried on and spread the scriptures. Originally Posted By crux: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: I wonder how Christ feels about the Holy Ghost allowing the Church to fall into error for over a millennia, I wonder if He told the Father. Thankfully Martin Luther came along to save us from our wretched ways. He was only the first not successfully burned and had a eventual communication via printing press, and he still held many errors, but exposing the errors between what was practiced and taught in his age, vs. what the received texts if the faith taught. I view Jan Hus as a better man. And Luther would have died the same way. At least though he admitted scripture should be the greater Judge than he. Likewise had nothing changed would I also be consigned to the flames as others were for my 1560 Geneva bible and the others. A blessed respite from the persecution of the saints. ETA: And you needn't wait for Luther, for long before the Christians in the east drew attention to sources of western error, and carried on and spread the scriptures. You need to read some history, and not just propaganda. |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By crux: If the man who stands in the place of Christ who is called the head of the church on earth is presently teaching in disagreement with the truth of scripture, and prior vicars did also, I must assume that his congregation can not be The church referred to, if the church be truth. Originally Posted By crux: Originally Posted By MolonLabeFBHO: The Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth and will lead the peoole in truth by the power of the Holy Spirit 1 Timothy 3:15 RSV [15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. If the man who stands in the place of Christ who is called the head of the church on earth is presently teaching in disagreement with the truth of scripture, and prior vicars did also, I must assume that his congregation can not be The church referred to, if the church be truth. You're conflating the Church with the pope. |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By Going2Heaven: Very well said. Sadly, some of our brothers here place the Catechism before the Bible. Originally Posted By Going2Heaven: Originally Posted By crux: If the man who stands in the place of Christ who is called the head of the church on earth is presently teaching in disagreement with the truth of scripture, and prior vicars did also, I must assume that his congregation can not be The church referred to, if the church be truth. Very well said. Sadly, some of our brothers here place the Catechism before the Bible. Name one. And name one contradiction between the catechism and the Bible. Both of which came from the same Church. |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By Going2Heaven: Correct, but it was the early church that compiled the various scriptures. To say that the present, wordly, monolith in Rome is the same as the early church is like saying the U.S. federal government is the same today as it was in the 1700's. Originally Posted By Going2Heaven: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By Going2Heaven: Originally Posted By crux: If the man who stands in the place of Christ who is called the head of the church on earth is presently teaching in disagreement with the truth of scripture, and prior vicars did also, I must assume that his congregation can not be The church referred to, if the church be truth. Very well said. Sadly, some of our brothers here place the Catechism before the Bible. The Bible exists as you know it because of the Church. A Bible without the Church is a mere shadow of the Truth. It's like having the owner's manual and never driving the car. Correct, but it was the early church that compiled the various scriptures. To say that the present, wordly, monolith in Rome is the same as the early church is like saying the U.S. federal government is the same today as it was in the 1700's. If a child went missing at the age of 7, and 20 years had passed, would you still be looking for that 7 year old? As John Henry Newman put it, "An acorn never grows into a Bassett Hound or a Ford Explorer; it always becomes an oak tree. Between the little seed and the towering tree there is organic continuity standing underneath all the visible changes, but everything the mighty oak will ever become is contained within the acorn. And when time, sun, and rain are added to the acorn, the mature oak is the result because that is its nature. Just so with the Church. What was revealed to the world in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost was the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, but at that moment, the entire Church could fit inside one room - one Upper Room which was also the Supper Room, the place where the Passover of Israel became the Eucharist of the Church. But the Church did not remain small for long. Within minutes of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the preaching of Simon Peter added three thousand new disciples of Jesus Christ to his growing Body." |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Why should they be praying to Mary because she is blessed? Jesus does say Mary is blessed, but where does he instruct or condone praying to her? How do you derive such an equivalence? Yeah, there is a difference between acknowledging a person's spiritual stature v. elevating them to a spiritual intercessor to be prayed to. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By brianm: Your citing of Luke 11 affirms Luke 1. Jesus is saying Mary is blessed for carrying the Lord and for hearing and keeping the word of God. All generations shall call her blessed. Seems like they are calling out to her and calling her blessed. Why should they be praying to Mary because she is blessed? Jesus does say Mary is blessed, but where does he instruct or condone praying to her? How do you derive such an equivalence? Yeah, there is a difference between acknowledging a person's spiritual stature v. elevating them to a spiritual intercessor to be prayed to. James 5:16 RSV [16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Who do you confess your sins to? |
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Why should they be praying to Mary because she is blessed? Jesus does say Mary is blessed, but where does he instruct or condone praying to her? How do you derive such an equivalence? Yeah, there is a difference between acknowledging a person's spiritual stature v. elevating them to a spiritual intercessor to be prayed to. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By brianm: Your citing of Luke 11 affirms Luke 1. Jesus is saying Mary is blessed for carrying the Lord and for hearing and keeping the word of God. All generations shall call her blessed. Seems like they are calling out to her and calling her blessed. Why should they be praying to Mary because she is blessed? Jesus does say Mary is blessed, but where does he instruct or condone praying to her? How do you derive such an equivalence? Yeah, there is a difference between acknowledging a person's spiritual stature v. elevating them to a spiritual intercessor to be prayed to. Do you ever pray to the Holy Ghost? Did you have a response to the one I gave you? |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
Joined:
Sep 2024
Posts:
166
EE: 0% (0)
OK, USA
|
Originally Posted By Going2Heaven: I did earlier in this thread. Jerome absolutely eviscerated Helvidius, an Arian heretic, back in 383 A.D. for proposing, among other ridiculous ideas, that firstborn meant Mary had other children. And if you know Jerome, you know his scriptural credentials in Biblical languages can not be questioned. Here is the Challoner note for the verse: ”Till she brought forth her firstborn son": From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2. If you wish to read Jerome’s completely condemning response to Helvidius, it is located in his writing The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary (link below). Here is an excerpt from it: The word of God defines first-born as everything that opens the womb. Otherwise, if the title belongs to such only as have younger brothers, the priests cannot claim the firstlings until their successors have been begotten, lest, perchance, in case there were no subsequent delivery it should prove to be the first-born but not merely the only begotten. … The word of God compels me to dedicate to God everything that opens the womb if it be the firstling of clean beasts: if of unclean beasts, I must redeem it, and give the value to the priest. I might reply and say, Why do you tie me down to the short space of a month? Why do you speak of the first-born, when I cannot tell whether there are brothers to follow? Wait until the second is born. I owe nothing to the priest, unless the birth of a second should make the one I previously had the first-born. Will not the very points of the letters cry out against me and convict me of my folly, and declare that first-born is a title of him who opens the womb, and is not to be restricted to him who has brothers? … Moses writes in Exodus, Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass at midnight, that the Lord smote all the first-born in the land of Egypt, from the first-born of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the first-born of the captive that was in the dungeon: And all the first-born of cattle. Tell me, were they who then perished by the destroyer, only your first-born, or, something more, did they include the only begotten? If only they who have brothers are called first-born, the only begotten were saved from death. And if it be the fact that the only begotten were slain, it was contrary to the sentence pronounced, for the only begotten to die as well as the first-born. You must either release the only begotten from the penalty, and in that case you become ridiculous: or, if you allow that they were slain, we gain our point, though we have not to thank you for it, that only begotten sons also are called first-born. And here is what Jerome said about the heretic’s arguement: There are things which, in your extreme ignorance, you had never read, and therefore you neglected the whole range of Scripture https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm So your personal interpretation based on a single verse aligns with a heretic’s ignorant view, that was rejected by the overwhelming majority of the early Church…and you’re ok with that? |
Joined:
Sep 2024
Posts:
171
EE: 0% (0)
OK, USA
|
Originally Posted By MolonLabeFBHO: James 5:16 RSV [16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Who do you confess your sins to? Originally Posted By MolonLabeFBHO: James 5:16 RSV [16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Who do you confess your sins to? I don't pray to Mary. Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Do you ever pray to the Holy Ghost? Did you have a response to the one I gave you? Who are we instructed to pray to? |
|
Originally Posted By clownbear69: It's amazing how a thread simply on the Rosary had to be derailed. Sad shame Anti-Catholicism is core to the theology of many. It literally drives scriptural interpretation. |
"This deeply secularist, post-modern society knows who its enemy is. They’re naming it. And we should believe them. They’re telling us who they are. We should believe them."
|
Originally Posted By clownbear69: It's amazing how a thread simply on the Rosary had to be derailed. Sad shame Did you notice the date when it derailed? We had just celebrated the Solemnity of the Holy Rosary Mass, with an amazing homily on the Battle of Lepanto and it's relevance to the world today... Lepanto October 7th |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Did you notice the date when it derailed? We had just celebrated the Solemnity of the Holy Rosary Mass, with an amazing homily on the Battle of Lepanto and it's relevance to the world today... Lepanto October 7th I did vaguely noticed that. But ive noticed more of you really embracing Catholicism and the amount of growth you've had with the faith. Its coming on a year when you decided aint it? |
|
Originally Posted By clownbear69: Well because their only justification to exist must be anti-catholic otherwise you couldn't be Protestant Originally Posted By clownbear69: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Anti-Catholicism is core to the theology of many. It literally drives scriptural interpretation. Well because their only justification to exist must be anti-catholic otherwise you couldn't be Protestant A lot of them refute the idea of even being connected to the Protestant thing, that whole "Trail of Blood" claim. |
"This deeply secularist, post-modern society knows who its enemy is. They’re naming it. And we should believe them. They’re telling us who they are. We should believe them."
|
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: A lot of them refute the idea of even being connected to the Protestant thing, that whole "Trail of Blood" claim. Ignorance of history doesn't excuse you from it. ETA: which is sad but i guess it the only way to validate |
|
Originally Posted By clownbear69: I did vaguely noticed that. But ive noticed more of you really embracing Catholicism and the amount of growth you've had with the faith. Its coming on a year when you decided aint it? Originally Posted By clownbear69: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Did you notice the date when it derailed? We had just celebrated the Solemnity of the Holy Rosary Mass, with an amazing homily on the Battle of Lepanto and it's relevance to the world today... Lepanto October 7th I did vaguely noticed that. But ive noticed more of you really embracing Catholicism and the amount of growth you've had with the faith. Its coming on a year when you decided aint it? It will be two years this January, the best decision I have ever made. |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Anti-Catholicism is core to the theology of many. It literally drives scriptural interpretation. Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By clownbear69: It's amazing how a thread simply on the Rosary had to be derailed. Sad shame Anti-Catholicism is core to the theology of many. It literally drives scriptural interpretation. I ask where can I find Biblical reference that supports the church espousing the things it does, & the reflexive cry of "anti-Catholicism" is afoot. A simple canonical citation will do. If it's in there, that covers. Is it in there (ie. Praying to "saints", Mary, etc)? I would've thought Catholics would be all about scrutinizing the accuracy of Biblical doctrine. "The Church" should be an organization not beholden to itself. |
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: I ask where can I find Biblical reference that supports the church espousing the things it does, & the reflexive cry of "anti-Catholicism" is afoot. A simple canonical citation will do. If it's in there, that covers. Is it in there (ie. Praying to "saints", Mary, etc)? I would've thought Catholics would be all about scrutinizing the accuracy of Biblical doctrine. "The Church" should be an organization not beholden to itself. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By clownbear69: It's amazing how a thread simply on the Rosary had to be derailed. Sad shame Anti-Catholicism is core to the theology of many. It literally drives scriptural interpretation. I ask where can I find Biblical reference that supports the church espousing the things it does, & the reflexive cry of "anti-Catholicism" is afoot. A simple canonical citation will do. If it's in there, that covers. Is it in there (ie. Praying to "saints", Mary, etc)? I would've thought Catholics would be all about scrutinizing the accuracy of Biblical doctrine. "The Church" should be an organization not beholden to itself. Your argument is flawed from its basic premise. The Church wrote and compiled what we now call the New Testament. Your belief in scriptural infallibility due to the Holy Spirit is only scripturally supportable when derivative of the scriptural support for the Church itself. Your disingenuous pleas are also old and tired, and you can find the doctrinal answers in thousands of places if you care to learn, they get discussed in this very forum ad nauseam. You and others jumped into a rosary thread to do your thread slide thing. That's the issue here, not the willingness to debate with you in general, the conscious need to jump into a thread like this and spew your bile. The rosary is a meditation on the mysteries of the Gospel. Feel free to ask about it. That's what this thread is about. |
"This deeply secularist, post-modern society knows who its enemy is. They’re naming it. And we should believe them. They’re telling us who they are. We should believe them."
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: I ask where can I find Biblical reference that supports the church espousing the things it does, & the reflexive cry of "anti-Catholicism" is afoot. A simple canonical citation will do. If it's in there, that covers. Is it in there (ie. Praying to "saints", Mary, etc)? I would've thought Catholics would be all about scrutinizing the accuracy of Biblical doctrine. "The Church" should be an organization not beholden to itself. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By clownbear69: It's amazing how a thread simply on the Rosary had to be derailed. Sad shame Anti-Catholicism is core to the theology of many. It literally drives scriptural interpretation. I ask where can I find Biblical reference that supports the church espousing the things it does, & the reflexive cry of "anti-Catholicism" is afoot. A simple canonical citation will do. If it's in there, that covers. Is it in there (ie. Praying to "saints", Mary, etc)? I would've thought Catholics would be all about scrutinizing the accuracy of Biblical doctrine. "The Church" should be an organization not beholden to itself. A canonical citation of what? I'm not sure what it is you're asking for. "ie. Praying to "saints", Mary, etc" We've been over this, you and many others reject the evidence even though it is supported via scripture, reason, logic, tradition, and history. "I would've thought Catholics would be all about scrutinizing the accuracy of Biblical doctrine." Are and have been for 2000 years, that's why it is so solid. On a personal note, the discussions here on Arfcom have certainly increased my faith in Catholicism, so thank you. |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Your argument is flawed from its basic premise. The Church wrote and compiled what we now call the New Testament. Your belief in scriptural infallibility due to the Holy Spirit is only scripturally supportable when derivative of the scriptural support for the Church itself. Your disingenuous pleas are also old and tired, and you can find the doctrinal answers in thousands of places if you care to learn, they get discussed in this very forum ad nauseam. You and others jumped into a rosary thread to do your thread slide thing. That's the issue here, not the willingness to debate with you in general, the conscious need to jump into a thread like this and spew your bile. The rosary is a meditation on the mysteries of the Gospel. Feel free to ask about it. That's what this thread is about. I'm actually not trying to slide anything, nor am I debating. It's a question, one I genuinely want to know the answer to. Intercessional prayer was an early practice, but it isn't the same as praying to someone. If you don't have time to answer my question, what do you have time for? |
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: I'm actually not trying to slide anything, nor am I debating. It's a question, one I genuinely want to know the answer to. Intercessional prayer was an early practice, but it isn't the same as praying to someone. If you don't have time to answer my question, what do you have time for? Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Your argument is flawed from its basic premise. The Church wrote and compiled what we now call the New Testament. Your belief in scriptural infallibility due to the Holy Spirit is only scripturally supportable when derivative of the scriptural support for the Church itself. Your disingenuous pleas are also old and tired, and you can find the doctrinal answers in thousands of places if you care to learn, they get discussed in this very forum ad nauseam. You and others jumped into a rosary thread to do your thread slide thing. That's the issue here, not the willingness to debate with you in general, the conscious need to jump into a thread like this and spew your bile. The rosary is a meditation on the mysteries of the Gospel. Feel free to ask about it. That's what this thread is about. I'm actually not trying to slide anything, nor am I debating. It's a question, one I genuinely want to know the answer to. Intercessional prayer was an early practice, but it isn't the same as praying to someone. If you don't have time to answer my question, what do you have time for? Let's start with language first. prayed; praying; prays Synonyms of pray transitive verb 1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea pray be careful 2 : to get or bring by praying intransitive verb 1 : to make a request in a humble manner 2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving "Pray to" does not equal "worship" Catholics do not worship Mary or the Saints as diety's. We honor them. We are all as one, the Mystical Body of Christ, living and "dead", we are all directed by God to pray for one another and to be in communion with one another. I can pray to my wife just as I can pray to Mary, just as I can pray to my patron saint, or any other member of the living Church of God. It is still intercessory prayer, which is scripturally and logically sound. |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Let's start with language first. prayed; praying; prays Synonyms of pray transitive verb 1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea pray be careful 2 : to get or bring by praying intransitive verb 1 : to make a request in a humble manner 2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving "Pray to" does not equal "worship" Catholics do not worship Mary or the Saints as diety's. We honor them. We are all as one, the Mystical Body of Christ, living and "dead", we are all directed by God to pray for one another and to be in communion with one another. I can pray to my wife just as I can pray to Mary, just as I can pray to my patron saint, or any other member of the living Church of God. It is still intercessory prayer, which is scripturally and logically sound. Okay, enough with this straw man. I never said in any of my posts that prayer = worship. Not once. |
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Okay, enough with this straw man. I never said in any of my posts that prayer = worship. Not once. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Let's start with language first. prayed; praying; prays Synonyms of pray transitive verb 1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea pray be careful 2 : to get or bring by praying intransitive verb 1 : to make a request in a humble manner 2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving "Pray to" does not equal "worship" Catholics do not worship Mary or the Saints as diety's. We honor them. We are all as one, the Mystical Body of Christ, living and "dead", we are all directed by God to pray for one another and to be in communion with one another. I can pray to my wife just as I can pray to Mary, just as I can pray to my patron saint, or any other member of the living Church of God. It is still intercessory prayer, which is scripturally and logically sound. Okay, enough with this straw man. I never said in any of my posts that prayer = worship. Not once. Apologies, most do though and I'm sure they're reading all the same. To avoid straw manning, what is your issue with it? Are you sincere in asking or are you just proclaiming we are wrong? |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Apologies, most do though and I'm sure they're reading all the same. To avoid straw manning, what is your issue with it? Are you sincere in asking or are you just proclaiming we are wrong? I want to know, where is this practice actually instructed or condoned in the scriptures, or even by Christ himself? I mean, is this a custom owed to linguistic interpretation or formal statements/instructions therein? I'm looking for authentic, verifiable (as in, from the texts, either the translations, or the original language source materials) proof that such a practice is more than a merely institutional practice. This author makes some salient points of interest/concern, as an example. |
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: I want to know, where is this practice actually instructed or condoned in the scriptures, or even by Christ himself? I mean, is this a custom owed to linguistic interpretation or formal statements/instructions therein? I'm looking for authentic, verifiable (as in, from the texts, either the translations, or the original language source materials) proof that such a practice is more than a merely institutional practice. This author makes some salient points of interest/concern, as an example. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Apologies, most do though and I'm sure they're reading all the same. To avoid straw manning, what is your issue with it? Are you sincere in asking or are you just proclaiming we are wrong? I want to know, where is this practice actually instructed or condoned in the scriptures, or even by Christ himself? I mean, is this a custom owed to linguistic interpretation or formal statements/instructions therein? I'm looking for authentic, verifiable (as in, from the texts, either the translations, or the original language source materials) proof that such a practice is more than a merely institutional practice. This author makes some salient points of interest/concern, as an example. I gave one just a moment ago, but here are some more. Not only can we pray to the saints, but they hear us and pray for us, they intercede for us living and "dead" (earthly death), God is the God of the living, and even that God will accept with greater attention a prayer for us by someone more worthy than ourselves. Just to preface again, we are in communion with all the saints, past and present. 'Brethren, pray for us. ' - 1 Thessalonians 5:25 'O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel, and of their children, that have sinned before thee, and have not hearkened to the voice of the Lord their God, wherefore evils have cleaved fast to us. ' - Baruch 3:4 'Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. ' - St James 5:14-16 'Then Simon answering, said: Pray you for me to the Lord, that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon me. ' - The Acts 8:24 'I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: ' - 1 Timothy 2:1 'Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust. And my servant Job shall pray for you. His face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. ' - Job 42:8 'Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, Raid: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God. Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying: Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel. ' - 2 Machabees (Maccabees) 15:12-16 'And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: ' - Apocalypse 5:8 'And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ' - Apocalypse 6:9-10 I read some of that website, talk about a straw man; ignorance of the most elementary abounds there. |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio
Joined:
Sep 2004
Posts:
13995
EE: 100% (10)
IN, USA
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: I'm actually not trying to slide anything, nor am I debating. It's a question, one I genuinely want to know the answer to. Intercessional prayer was an early practice, but it isn't the same as praying to someone. If you don't have time to answer my question, what do you have time for? Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Your argument is flawed from its basic premise. The Church wrote and compiled what we now call the New Testament. Your belief in scriptural infallibility due to the Holy Spirit is only scripturally supportable when derivative of the scriptural support for the Church itself. Your disingenuous pleas are also old and tired, and you can find the doctrinal answers in thousands of places if you care to learn, they get discussed in this very forum ad nauseam. You and others jumped into a rosary thread to do your thread slide thing. That's the issue here, not the willingness to debate with you in general, the conscious need to jump into a thread like this and spew your bile. The rosary is a meditation on the mysteries of the Gospel. Feel free to ask about it. That's what this thread is about. I'm actually not trying to slide anything, nor am I debating. It's a question, one I genuinely want to know the answer to. Intercessional prayer was an early practice, but it isn't the same as praying to someone. If you don't have time to answer my question, what do you have time for? I think you will be happy to know that to Catholics those terms are synonymous in that context. Your disagreement is semantic, not theological. |
"Do not overthink it, gentlemen. It's only a gunfight, not an IRS tax audit." - Louis Awerbuck
|
Originally Posted By clownbear69: Jeez its already been that long time sure does fly. Glad you made the best choice Originally Posted By clownbear69: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: It will be two years this January, the best decision I have ever made. Jeez its already been that long time sure does fly. Glad you made the best choice That's wild isn't it? Thank you, as it progressed it was clear to me it was the only choice. |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Origen on the 4 Categories of Prayer from 1 Timothy 2:1-2, Supplications (Requests): Father, Son, Saints That form of prayer which a man in some need offers with supplication for its attainment. Prayers (sometimes called "Direct Prayer"): Only the Father (not even to Jesus!) That which a man offers in the loftier sense for higher things with ascription of glory. Intercessions: Father, Son, Saints, Other People The addressing of claim to God by a man who possesses a certain fuller confidence. Thanksgivings: Father, Son, Saints, Other People The prayerful acknowledgment of the attainment of blessings from God, he who returns the acknowledgment being impressed by the greatness, or what seems to the recipient the greatness, of the benefactions conferred. Me - direct prayer - God Me - intercessory prayer - Mary - direct prayer - God Me - intercessory prayer - Saints in heaven - direct prayer - God Me - intercessory prayer - My priest - direct prayer - God Catechism of the Catholic Church 2559, 2564, notice difference in meaning, not in word: prayer 2559 "Prayer is the raising of one's mind and heart to God or the requesting of good things from God." [..] 2564 "Christian prayer is a covenant relationship between God and man in Christ. It is the action of God and of man, springing forth from both the Holy Spirit and ourselves, wholly directed to the Father, in union with the human will of the Son of God made man." |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
'He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err. ' - St Mark 12:27 Lord, have mercy on us. Christ have mercy on us. Lord, have mercy on us. Christ, hear us, Christ, graciously hear us. God, the Father of heaven, Have mercy on us. God the Son, Redeemer of the world, Have mercy on us. God, the Holy Spirit, Have mercy on us. Holy Trinity, One God, Have mercy on us. Holy Mary, Pray for us. Holy Mother of God, Pray for us. Holy Virgin of virgins, Pray for us. Saint Michael, Pray for us. Saint Gabriel, Pray for us. Saint Raphael, Pray for us. All ye holy angels and archangels, Pray for us. All ye holy orders of blessed spirits, Pray for us. Saint John the Baptist, Pray for us. Saint Joseph, Pray for us. All ye holy patriarchs and prophets. Pray for us. Saint Peter, Pray for us. Saint Paul, Pray for us. Saint Andrew, Pray for us. Saint James, Pray for us. Saint John, Pray for us. Saint Thomas, Pray for us. Saint James, Pray for us. Saint Philip, Pray for us. Saint Bartholomew. Pray for us. Saint Matthew, Pray for us. Saint Simon, Pray for us. Saint Thaddeus, Pray for us. Saint Matthias, Pray for us. Saint Barnabas, Pray for us. Saint Luke, Pray for us. Saint Mark, Pray for us. All ye holy apostles and evangelists, Pray for us. All ye holy disciples of our Lord. Pray for us. All ye holy Innocents, Pray for us. Saint Stephen, Pray for us. Saint Lawrence, Pray for us. Saint Vincent, Pray for us. Saints Fabian and Sebastian, Pray for us. Saints John and Paul, Pray for us. Saints Cosmas and Damian, Pray for us. Saints Gervase and Protase, Pray for us. All ye holy martyrs, Pray for us. Saint Sylvester, Pray for us. Saint Gregory, Pray for us. Saint Ambrose, Pray for us. Saint Augustine. Pray for us. Saint Jerome, Pray for us. Saint Martin, Pray for us. Saint Nicolas, Pray for us. All ye holy bishops and confessors, Pray for us. All ye holy doctors, Pray for us. Saint Anthony, Pray for us. Saint Benedict, Pray for us. Saint Bernard, Pray for us. Saint Dominic, Pray for us. Saint Francis, Pray for us. All ye holy priests and levites, Pray for us. All ye holy monks and hermits. Pray for us. Saint Mary Magdalen, Pray for us. Saint Agatha, Pray for us. Saint Lucy, Pray for us. Saint Agnes, Pray for us. Saint Cecily, Pray for us. Saint Catherine, Pray for us. Saint Anastasia, Pray for us All ye holy virgins and widows, Pray for us. All ye holy men and women, Saints of God, Make intercession for us. Be merciful, Spare us, O Lord. Be merciful, Graciously hear us, O Lord. From all evil, O Lord, deliver us. From all sin, O Lord, deliver us. From Thy wrath, O Lord, deliver us. From a sudden and unprovided death, O Lord, deliver us. From the snares of the devil, O Lord, deliver us. From anger, and hatred, and all ill will, O Lord, deliver us. From the spirit of fornication, O Lord, deliver us. From lightning and tempest, O Lord, deliver us. From the scourge of earthquake. O Lord, deliver us. From pestilence, famine and war, O Lord, deliver us. From everlasting death, O Lord, deliver us. Through the mystery of Thy holy Incarnation, O Lord, deliver us. Through Thy coming, O Lord, deliver us. Through Thy nativity, O Lord, deliver us. Through Thy baptism and holy fasting, O Lord, deliver us. Through Thy Cross and Passion, O Lord, deliver us. Through Thy death and burial, O Lord, deliver us. Through Thy holy Resurrection, O Lord, deliver us. Through Thine admirable Ascension, O Lord, deliver us. Through the coming of the Holy Spirit the Paraclete, O Lord, deliver us. In the day of judgment, O Lord, deliver us. We sinners, We beseech Thee, hear us, That Thou wouldst spare us, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst pardon us, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst bring us to true penance, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst govern and preserve Thy holy Church We beseech Thee, hear us., That Thou wouldst preserve our Aposto-lie Prelate, and all ecclesiastical orders in holy religion, We beseech Thee, hear us, That Thou wouldst humble the enemies of Thy holy Church, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst give peace and true concord to Christian kings and princes, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst grant peace and unity to all Christian people, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst bring back to the unity of the Church all those who have strayed away, and lead to the light of the Gospel all unbelievers, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst confirm and pres-erve us in Thy holy service, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst lift up our minds to heavenly desires, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst render eternal blessings to all our benefactors, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst deliver our souls, and the souls of our brethren, relations and benefactors, from eternal damnation, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst give and preserve the fruit of the earth, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst give eternal rest to all the faithful departed, We beseech Thee, hear us. That Thou wouldst graciously hear us We beseech Thee, hear us. Son of God, We beseech Thee, hear us. Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world, Spare us, O Lord. Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world, Graciously hear us, O Lord. Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world, Have mercy on us. Christ hear us. Christ, graciously hear us. Lord, have mercy on us. Christ, have mercy on us. Lord, have mercy on us. Our Father.. (silently)…. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. Amen. |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: I gave one just a moment ago, but here are some more. Not only can we pray to the saints, but they hear us and pray for us, they intercede for us living and "dead" (earthly death), God is the God of the living, and even that God will accept with greater attention a prayer for us by someone more worthy than ourselves. Just to preface again, we are in communion with all the saints, past and present. 'Brethren, pray for us. ' - 1 Thessalonians 5:25 'O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel, and of their children, that have sinned before thee, and have not hearkened to the voice of the Lord their God, wherefore evils have cleaved fast to us. ' - Baruch 3:4 'Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. ' - St James 5:14-16 'Then Simon answering, said: Pray you for me to the Lord, that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon me. ' - The Acts 8:24 'I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: ' - 1 Timothy 2:1 'Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust. And my servant Job shall pray for you. His face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. ' - Job 42:8 'Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, Raid: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God. Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying: Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel. ' - 2 Machabees (Maccabees) 15:12-16 'And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: ' - Apocalypse 5:8 'And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ' - Apocalypse 6:9-10 I read some of that website, talk about a straw man; ignorance of the most elementary abounds there. These seem to be appeals to the living, rather than dead saints. Or am I missing something? |
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: The seem to be appeals to the living, rather than dead saints. Or am I missing something? Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: I gave one just a moment ago, but here are some more. Not only can we pray to the saints, but they hear us and pray for us, they intercede for us living and "dead" (earthly death), God is the God of the living, and even that God will accept with greater attention a prayer for us by someone more worthy than ourselves. Just to preface again, we are in communion with all the saints, past and present. 'Brethren, pray for us. ' - 1 Thessalonians 5:25 'O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel, and of their children, that have sinned before thee, and have not hearkened to the voice of the Lord their God, wherefore evils have cleaved fast to us. ' - Baruch 3:4 'Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. ' - St James 5:14-16 'Then Simon answering, said: Pray you for me to the Lord, that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon me. ' - The Acts 8:24 'I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: ' - 1 Timothy 2:1 'Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust. And my servant Job shall pray for you. His face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. ' - Job 42:8 'Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, Raid: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God. Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying: Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel. ' - 2 Machabees (Maccabees) 15:12-16 'And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: ' - Apocalypse 5:8 'And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ' - Apocalypse 6:9-10 I read some of that website, talk about a straw man; ignorance of the most elementary abounds there. The seem to be appeals to the living, rather than dead saints. Or am I missing something? I am sticking to scripture only, of course there is much more from the early Church and throughout Church history. But again, God is the God of the living, and His Church is the house of the living God, saints aren't dead to God. From our perspective they are dead, but from the heavenly perspective, God's perspective, they are alive. 'the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. ' - 1 Timothy 3:15 'He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err. ' - St Mark 12:27 'O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel, This is a prophet (or saint) in heaven, interceding and giving a worldly gift to aid the living Israel: Jeremias the prophet of God. Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying: Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel. Saints interceding for us in heaven: 'And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ' - Apocalypse 6:9-10 |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: The seem to be appeals to the living, rather than dead saints. Or am I missing something? Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: I gave one just a moment ago, but here are some more. Not only can we pray to the saints, but they hear us and pray for us, they intercede for us living and "dead" (earthly death), God is the God of the living, and even that God will accept with greater attention a prayer for us by someone more worthy than ourselves. Just to preface again, we are in communion with all the saints, past and present. 'Brethren, pray for us. ' - 1 Thessalonians 5:25 'O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel, and of their children, that have sinned before thee, and have not hearkened to the voice of the Lord their God, wherefore evils have cleaved fast to us. ' - Baruch 3:4 'Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. ' - St James 5:14-16 'Then Simon answering, said: Pray you for me to the Lord, that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon me. ' - The Acts 8:24 'I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: ' - 1 Timothy 2:1 'Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust. And my servant Job shall pray for you. His face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. ' - Job 42:8 'Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, Raid: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God. Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying: Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel. ' - 2 Machabees (Maccabees) 15:12-16 'And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: ' - Apocalypse 5:8 'And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ' - Apocalypse 6:9-10 I read some of that website, talk about a straw man; ignorance of the most elementary abounds there. The seem to be appeals to the living, rather than dead saints. Or am I missing something? Who did Jesus talk to at the Transfiguration on the Mount? |
Joined:
Aug 2022
Posts:
268
EE: 0% (0)
USA
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: The seem to be appeals to the living, rather than dead saints. Or am I missing something? Do you believe this? "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" |
|
Originally Posted By MolonLabeFBHO: Who did Jesus talk to at the Transfiguration on the Mount? Originally Posted By MolonLabeFBHO: Who did Jesus talk to at the Transfiguration on the Mount? How does this moment & the interactions he had create a doctrine of praying to normal, deceased humans? Originally Posted By radtrad: Do you believe this? "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" Not sure why you feel the need to even ask such a question. |
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: How does this moment & the interactions he had create a doctrine of praying to normal, deceased humans? Not sure why you feel the need to even ask such a question. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By MolonLabeFBHO: Who did Jesus talk to at the Transfiguration on the Mount? How does this moment & the interactions he had create a doctrine of praying to normal, deceased humans? Originally Posted By radtrad: Do you believe this? "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" Not sure why you feel the need to even ask such a question. 
|
"This deeply secularist, post-modern society knows who its enemy is. They’re naming it. And we should believe them. They’re telling us who they are. We should believe them."
|
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: https://images.examples.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Rhetorical-Questions.png I'm sorry, but I'm not catching the the relevancy. |
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: How does this moment & the interactions he had create a doctrine of praying to normal, deceased humans? Not sure why you feel the need to even ask such a question. The point was to show that when you die you are still alive and not just worm food. You are still the Body of Christ and can pray for those still trying to make it to heaven. Protestant heaven seems very empty. |
Joined:
Sep 2024
Posts:
296
EE: 0% (0)
OK, USA
Joined:
Aug 2022
Posts:
269
EE: 0% (0)
USA
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Not sure why you feel the need to even ask such a question. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By radtrad: Do you believe this? "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" Not sure why you feel the need to even ask such a question. If the saints believed in Him, then wouldn't they have everlasting life? We don't believe those saints are dead. They are very much alive. If you believe John 3:16, then why would you think they're dead? Why would you think we invoke the dead for intersession? |
|
Originally Posted By radtrad: If the saints believed in Him, then wouldn't they have everlasting life? We don't believe those saints are dead. They are very much alive. If you believe John 3:16, then why would you think they're dead? Why would you think we invoke the dead for intersession? Originally Posted By radtrad: Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By radtrad: Do you believe this? "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" Not sure why you feel the need to even ask such a question. If the saints believed in Him, then wouldn't they have everlasting life? We don't believe those saints are dead. They are very much alive. If you believe John 3:16, then why would you think they're dead? Why would you think we invoke the dead for intersession? Poor choice of words. They are not anything but created beings, like us. Where are we instructed to pray to them? Gullskjegg's citations seem to be an implore to their fellow Christians still among them, not those who have gone on. |
|
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Poor choice of words. They are not anything but created beings, like us. Where are we instructed to pray to them? Gullskjegg's citations seem to be an implore to their fellow Christians still among them, not those who have gone on. Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By radtrad: Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Originally Posted By radtrad: Do you believe this? "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" Not sure why you feel the need to even ask such a question. If the saints believed in Him, then wouldn't they have everlasting life? We don't believe those saints are dead. They are very much alive. If you believe John 3:16, then why would you think they're dead? Why would you think we invoke the dead for intersession? Poor choice of words. They are not anything but created beings, like us. Where are we instructed to pray to them? Gullskjegg's citations seem to be an implore to their fellow Christians still among them, not those who have gone on. I responded above with three Biblical examples of just that, intercession by “dead” saints and praying for the dead. |
Dómine Jesu, dimitte nobis débita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferni; perduc in caelum omnes ánimas, praesertim eas, quae misericórdiae tuae máxime indigent.
The Holy Rosary, For America (Page 4 of 7)
Join the Community
Your next conversation starts here.
Create your free account to join discussions, share your experience, save topics, and connect with the AR15.COM community.
- Join discussions
- Follow topics and replies
- Connect with fellow enthusiasts
Already a member? Sign in
Stay informed by subscribing to our Newsletter