I still think (and hold out hope) that it will end up on the same dustbin of history as XM8.

I mean, you could argue "best" a number of ways beyond "how many bullets can this thing put downrange per soldier". You could argue a squad with a Chauchat wouldn't be at a disadvantage against one with a BAR but history and experience would probably want to gave a word about that...

Man, that thing looked cool as hell to my teenage self at least. I was playing Crysis back in the day just waiting for the future to be now

M14, no competition.

Lol.

M14 wasn't even the best "battle rifle made by converting a Garand" battle rifle.

You might be able to work out some chicken tendies for 1960s .308 deal

That's something we can agree on

Agreed 100%. M4 or 20" spr.

Years ago I owned a Rhodesian FAL kit that I sold without ever having built. On the gas regulator there was a very distinguishable although worn line of white paint from the gas ring continuing onto the gas block. Apparently the user had painted the index mark so that he would always know and be able to repeat a particular setting.

And the FAL was one of the worst designs, regardless of what fanboys say.



M14/M1A fanboys are a plague on gun owners.

Spits coffee everywhere……how!!!!?!?!?

Ok. And? How many new guns use roller delayed?


The FAL at least has a good gas system, and is still going strong to this day. The bolt is really the only downside.


Don't act like some euro nations using the G3 is proof of some superiority, they'd be using FAL's or M14's if that was what they had.

Ah yeah, … no FAL here. I’d still go with my LMT 7.62 LM8 (MWS family, but lighter). 16” barrel, suppressed.  More ergonomic and modular like everything with AR genes.

Where did I put my damn paint pen!?

In reverse order, do you think those countries got G3s for free or did they have to purchase them?

No gas system to screw up by a conscripted grunt is better than an infinitely adjustable one that does.

Here are some legitimately NEW guns, not HK or CETME clones. Roller delayed didn't die with the MP5 or G3.

https://angstadtarms.com/mdp9/

https://www.jprifles.com/1.2.18_JP-5.php

https://srmarms.com/product/best-semi-auto-shotgun-srm-1216/

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/10/11/garrow-firearms-development-17-hmr-ar15/

https://grandpower.eu/products/product-categories/stribog-line/9x19-luger-stribog-line/stribog-sp9-a3/

https://www.guns.com/news/2013/12/27/meet-korth-prs-roller-delayed-blowback-1911-masterpiece-video

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/03/31/german-geiger-grp-roller-delayed-blowback-pistol/

The point is they had those guns in inventory. Of course they will use them like we used the M14. No one dumped their FALs for G3's outside of Germany, since FN wouldn't license production.

I agree on the gas system. The piston itself is superb, and has been copied many times. If FN actually cared about improving their designs, a collar could have been made with only 3 or 4 posistions

The roller delayed blowback system is still kicking around in the PCC market, as it should, but the 5.56 and up market is going with a short stroke, gas piston multi lug rotating bolt

Right. What I am saying, is that when they initially were buying rifles, they were free to select the FAL, the G3 or presumably even the AR10. They selected the G3, which does have benefits and drawbacks. IMHO it serves the role of a conscripted issue battle rifle better because it's simpler and more reliable, as a result of the blowback action. FALs can definitely better to shoot but that's not the point really.

The FAL nor the G3 are in the same league as the AR platform.

We adopted the FAL, but we switched over to the G3.

G3.

I definitely agree wrt ar's being better

This is the closest thing I have to a “battle rifle”

Attached File

What drove that decision? A particular trait of the FAL or G3, or was it an economic reason?

Had two HK91's and an M1A. Got rid of all three after I got my first Belgian FAL. I went out in the snow to try my new FAL, shot it and came right back through the snow to grab one of my HK's and some different ammo to try. I thought that the ammo must be under powered because FAL had hardly any recoil. Nope, it was the rifle not the ammo, the FAL was just so much smoother than the HK to shoot it was unbelievable. Eventually the HK's went away for a nice profit. Later, the M1A went away for a nice profit with no regrets. Still have my Belgian FAL and two others. The FAL cost twice as much to make than the stamped metal HK, so only the poors used the HK in the early days. After all, it really wasn't that hard a call. Who would want a stamped metal, harsh recoiling rifle with the ergonomics of a 2x4 block of wood and a trigger like a gate latch vs a sleek beautifully made FAL with half the recoil and a pretty nice trigger compared to the HK? After all John Browning's understudy and then chief firearms designer at FN, Dieudonné Saive, designed the FAL. He also had a hand in the HiPower, the 1919 and the M2, so the pedigree of the FAL is a great one, and it was the most widely used battle rifle in history. Over 90 countries used the FAL, and only got rid of them when they went the Nato 5.56 route. So for king of the battle rifles, I'll take the thoroughbred FNFAL any time vs a stamped metal HK lump, or the Garand mutation the M1A.

Don't need roller delay on a sten since the bolt weighs 5lbs and delays itself just fine.

M14 Fanboi reporting for duty with my 1911!    

If I had to fight for my life I would feel fine with it or my AR15.    My AK would be handed over to my neighbor who's wife won't let him own a gun.

I wouldn't mind an FAL.

G3?  Who the fuck designed the selector switch? I would like to slap his children for the failure of their father.

Side arm of choice ( don't own one yet ) double stack 1911 in 10mm   If shit went down with what I own today?  CZ Tac Sport.     the trigger is too light but it will work

It's a joke since someone said the G3 is just a big STEN

Found the guy with Carney hands. Be teutonic.

Both reliability and cost favoured the G3.

My favorite.

Attached File

I'm torn, love the FAL but Tavor 7 or San Swiss (Sig) 751 might be it.

G3. Lightweight, and brutally reliable.

More betterer

Attached File

That's narrrsty.

Got a chub out of me.

There is a difference, and the difference is a mechanical lock versus a mechanical delay.
@DeltaElite777 is correct.

The G3 bolt isn't actually locked; it's merely held closed in a state of extreme mechanical disadvantage (by spring tension and the geometry of the rollers and locking piece). Its bolt starts to move aft as soon as recoil force begins acting upon it (which occurs immediately upon firing).

The MG3 (or MG42) bolt actually is locked by the rollers, and isn't going anywhere until the whole barrel/bolt assembly moves aft and unlocks the bolt assembly during its travel. Only then can the bolt move rearward independently of the barrel assembly (which stops).

The Germans tried roller-locking designs in several weapons, eventually concluding that roller-delayed blowback was superior because it involves fewer moving parts. The design and machining tolerances on those parts must be extremely precise however, and they need to perfectly match the recoil energy generated by the ammunition (which is something HK had problems with during their worldwide sales/fielding of the G3 and HK33 series).

Anyway, if we're talking Cold War era full-power battle rifles, AR-10 wins hands down.

Assault rifles are the better choice for general issue though, which is why the AR-15 ultimately won, and why AKs never went away and remain as popular as ever.

is bootiful!

Rhodie baby poop, overlaid with Mugabe mud. Lots of history in that rifle, it's been around.  Choots nice too.

Citation? I've never read this before. I do know that FN made a 6.5mm version for Sweden to evaluate to try to attract adoption, but that this was not successful.

Portugal originally went with the FAL supplemented by the AR-10. They considered the FAL too expensive and the Netherland forced sales of the AR-10 to Portugal to cease, after which manufacture ended. The G-3 was adopted to finish replacement of the Mauser and ultimately replaced the FAL and AR-10 (by the 1980s). The licensing of production to Portugal was what sealed the deal (in the meantime, Germany provided surplus FALs to Portugal).

Greece also adopted the FAL, but due to internal politics, the licensed producer of G-3s was given favor leading to the primacy of the G-3 over the FAL, although the latter has still not been fully replaced in service. Garands and various bolt-actions were retained for some time as well.

Most other countries adopted one or the other (or some other 7.62mm rifle) and stuck with it, sometimes supplemented by others temporarily or for the remaining length of service of 7.62mm rifles as issue weapons. Surplus G-3s and M-14s were more recently given to some of the newer NATO members.

Most of the countries that partly or entirely stayed with 7.62X51mm were those which adopted the G-3 for whatever reason, which is why it is more common in Western service presently.  The FAL remains in naval use in a number of NATO countries and is more heavily issued by Greece (mainly issued to the Coast Guard, National Guard, and civilian LE). Some also remain in reserve stocks, although the Dutch recently donated all but those in naval service to the Kurds. Belgium uses them as trainers at the para commando schools, but that's it. Some were or are also retained as DMRs by some non-NATO Western countries.

Gotta figure in - are we talking as military issued, or the G3/FAL/M14 patterns that have been updated by civilian manufactures, and with accessories to add on?

I've owned all three and didn't like the G3 in HK91 format at all.  Harsh recoil - worse than a bolt action in the same caliber. Cap gun quality trigger.  No bolt hold open after the last shot, can't drop the mag out without changing your grip or reaching over with your left hand.  Took to the range once - sold shortly after, and still not sad that I sold a real HK91.

Now the FAL is much better in the version I have - a DS Arms, 18' barrel, SAW grip so it fits, with a rail mount on the receiver.  Soft shooting, decent trigger, good accuracy.  Now the FAL version would have had a 21" barrel plus flash hider, FAL grip so one that wants to give you a crick in your hand, and no rail or red dot/LPVO sight.  So substantially less nice and effective.

The M14 that I have is a M1A SOCOM, with the 16" barrel.  Didn't know I'd like it, but I really do.  Short, handy, slim with a conventional rifle pattern instead of the quite tall G3 or FAL style or AR10 style.  Good sights, and a front Scout style mount for red dot.  But the M14 would have had a 21 inch barrel I think, plus the hider, so much longer, no red dot, heaver, and a wood stock so it swells with moisture.

So, for G3/FAL/M14, as issued versions:

Pretty close for the FAL and M14.  Probably go with the FAL for the side charging handle, and bolt realase button over the M14's right side handle and needing to pull back the handle.  But pretty close between then.  The G3 is a dog and finishes last.

For modern versions - there's not a lot that's been done to the G3 pattern compared to all the FAL and M1A versions.  You can get a railed upper, and that's about it.  It's still a hard kicking, poor handling dog.

Between modern FAL's and M1A's, again I'd go with the FAL.  Better bolt and mag release aspects, more options on mounting a scope, and a fully adjustable gas system.

Now, a well thought out AR10 rifle, that's modernized is more effective than any of the above.  But the original AR10 was a dog too in terms of weight and kick and general handling  It's probably benefited the most from commercial manufactures and accessory add-ons.

And for those who say it's a dead concept - the battle rifle is what the military is going back to with the M5 pattern of rifles.  Going back - Back to the Future!

It’s funny cuz it’s true

Lightweight? Attached File

Granted, there are variants of all the major battle rifles, but in the “standard” configuration I’m not so sure it is appreciably lighter than an M-14 or FAL (or AR-10, of course).

HK91s and G3s are wonderful and over the years I have owned around five of them.

But I still prefer the FAL and if you are ever lucky enough to get an SAR48, Argentine or other
OEM built FAL the quality of the fit/finish and performance of these FALs is way ahead
of any DSA or home brew FAL.

The only thing that would come close is a FAL built by Mark at ARS.

SCAR 17

SR-25

Not sure what DS Arms is selling now, but my 2004 FAL has as good fit/finish/performance as any other quality firearms I've owned.  Certainly more than the military era FAL's that I've come across, most of which have been well beaten on.

It was designed for the chicken wing.

Ive seen that rifle somewheres

AK fm/1962 as issued to the Coastal Rangers. The FAL was AK1, AK2 and 3 were Ljungman-derivatives based around the GRAM 63. The G3 won out as the AK4 and is still in service.

M14=1975 Chevy c10 as American as a baseball flavored apple pie. Loved and handicaps are over looked and ignored by lovers and over blown by haters.
FAL=1985 Ford F-250 wider adoption but both revered and despised by the end user. God help you if you have wiring issues because no you one else can.
G3= Dodge D350 first gen Cummins on its 9th transmission has 870,000 miles on the clock the last of the wiring  burned up in it 5th electrical fire this year. The doors have fallen off. The bed was scraped to buy flat bill hat and a roll of Grizzly winter green.
Last seen rolling coal into the middle of the Sahara as a faint sound of yee yee floats across the sand dunes...