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Originally Posted By Everetts: Blah Blah Blah ... Toyota DNA ... Blah Blah. Yeah sure. But not the GOOD Toyota DNA. Can't order a up an 8RC from Toyota, and even if you could, it can't be imported. No, you will get the explodey DNA. Academic really, because FMVSS and the EPA will drive the price of this to 40k before you see one. IF it's not a scam. I feel you brother. Tho I'm an 18R-G guy, could we at least go 4Y EFI. And why would you want Californian emissions? That's the C. An 8R-E, maybe. Id be down for one of those 500,000 mile Hybrids too. But towing You may have missed the part about banking on Trumps promise . . .err comment. Or it's coming to market under current LSV provisions.  |
Tertium non datur
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: Versa? That 20% represents 10k more units to 51k yearly. Its main competitor the Mirage went out in '24. So the current entire consolidated demand for sub $20k base cars (because most peeps don't transact base which is another discussion) is half a hundred k. Bit over a decade ago that nameplate did 150k regularly. It was a class volume leader - mostly due to price and subpar credit acceptance (which is another aspect mfgs prefer to avoid), but competitors consistently did more than Versa did last year. Where did that demand go? What's forcing people from buying low cost small cars? Because despite these near conspiratorial lamentation, if those models peak volumes were still intact, so would their availability. Originally Posted By Alacrity: Originally Posted By Ligore: Originally Posted By OregonShooter: Because actual sales data says they don't and the fact that the Nissan Versa was cancelled due to low sales despite being the cheapest new car in the US is proof. Not enough people agree with you to make a vehicle viable. The vast majority of buyers that cannot afford a new luxury vehicle will choose to buy a used vehicle instead of a stripped new one. Manufacturers sell new cars to new car buyers. New car buyers want more vehicle content not less so new vehicles moved up market. The Nissan sales were up 20% in 2025. You do not want to buy a vehicle so nobody else should. House expensive, cars expensive and a lot of people priced out of what was normal life. Bit over a decade ago that nameplate did 150k regularly. It was a class volume leader - mostly due to price and subpar credit acceptance (which is another aspect mfgs prefer to avoid), but competitors consistently did more than Versa did last year. Where did that demand go? What's forcing people from buying low cost small cars? Because despite these near conspiratorial lamentation, if those models peak volumes were still intact, so would their availability. There's a chicken vs egg issue that presents itself in these sorts of conversations. It's a sort of circular logic issue that says "if there was enough demand for ____, companies would be building it." When demand isn't met, or when demand isn't met well enough, there's a sort of blind spot where companies don't actually know what there is demand for. My favorite example of this in the firearms industry is PCCs. For a long time, the options for PCCs were pretty terrible. Guys here said the same sort of thing. A lack of options was cited as evidence that there's no demand. Guys referenced the discontinuation of the Marlin Camp Carbine which didn't survive the AWB era. Then one day, everything changed. I'm not sure if the catalyst was the CZ Scorpion or the Turkish MP5 clones, but PCCs are consistently one of the hottest selling segments in the industry now. There are parallels to this in the midsize truck segment and later the 4X4 SUV segment. At one point, the midsize truck segment was just 10+ year old variants of the Tacoma and Frontier. No Colorado, no Ranger, etc. Now we have shiny new versions of those plus the Gladiator, the Durango on the way, and the refresh cycle is shorter as the segment gets more competitive. In both of these cases, manufacturers left piles of money on the table due to unmet demand that they likely didn't understand. Back to this conversation, sales numbers may not support a strong case for either subcompacts or small trucks, but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist. Based on speculation, vibes, and feelz, I think the subcompact car segment might just be dead to the US market. Maybe they aren't cheap enough relative to the rest of the market, maybe there's no fuel efficiency advantage, maybe the bottom end of the car market is priced out, etc. But I do have real curiosity about the viability of a small BOF truck family. I think it could work, but I think it would have to be positioned to favor fleet sales, not hobbyists and cheap consumers. I would think it should be something relatively modular with a pickup, a service body, and a cargo van the size of a TransitConnect. Such a vehicle would have major TCO advantages relative to midsize trucks and vans. |
"Sometimes, the grass is greener because it's on a septic system."
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: There's a chicken vs egg issue that presents itself in these sorts of conversations. It's a sort of circular logic issue that says "if there was enough demand for ____, companies would be building it." When demand isn't met, or when demand isn't met well enough, there's a sort of blind spot where companies don't actually know what there is demand for. My favorite example of this in the firearms industry is PCCs. For a long time, the options for PCCs were pretty terrible. Guys here said the same sort of thing. A lack of options was cited as evidence that there's no demand. Guys referenced the discontinuation of the Marlin Camp Carbine which didn't survive the AWB era. Then one day, everything changed. I'm not sure if the catalyst was the CZ Scorpion or the Turkish MP5 clones, but PCCs are consistently one of the hottest selling segments in the industry now. There are parallels to this in the midsize truck segment and later the 4X4 SUV segment. At one point, the midsize truck segment was just 10+ year old variants of the Tacoma and Frontier. No Colorado, no Ranger, etc. Now we have shiny new versions of those plus the Gladiator, the Durango on the way, and the refresh cycle is shorter as the segment gets more competitive. In both of these cases, manufacturers left piles of money on the table due to unmet demand that they likely didn't understand. Back to this conversation, sales numbers may not support a strong case for either subcompacts or small trucks, but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist. Based on speculation, vibes, and feelz, I think the subcompact car segment might just be dead to the US market. Maybe they aren't cheap enough relative to the rest of the market, maybe there's no fuel efficiency advantage, maybe the bottom end of the car market is priced out, etc. But I do have real curiosity about the viability of a small BOF truck family. I think it could work, but I think it would have to be positioned to favor fleet sales, not hobbyists and cheap consumers. I would think it should be something relatively modular with a pickup, a service body, and a cargo van the size of a TransitConnect. Such a vehicle would have major TCO advantages relative to midsize trucks and vans. The eggs were certainly hatching in the mid teens. Versa was the volume leader at or around just under 150k at peak. Sonic, Fit, Fiesta, Accent all sold 50-60k in the era. As volume went away so did the nameplates. Seems directly causal. You didn't have the tariff and on soil capacity pressures you have now. As I've asked what's the driver outside volume? Nice C-segs like Golf can't make it due to price. Nicer B segs don't get traction at higher pricing, regardless how compelling they are. I also don't think many in the segment were neglected. Fit (now HRV) and Fiesta were decent enough rides. I'd pay GR Corolla money for a GR Yaris. I'd be down for a new 208 GTI or A290. But electric  Which is the other issue for smalls in the States. Further Divergence. The Mini is premium and decent but hasn't beat 30k in how long? If the demand remained you'd expect it to shift to remaining low dollar hatches. But the last man standing did 50k in its last year - a tenth of the demand a decade ago. But they were constrained to globally available models and shifting market preference. It's how you got a 200k Trax - whose $21.5k entry MSRP get a replicates the $15k entry point for subcompacts in '15 - and lots of demand for other SubCompact Plus Utilities like Crosstrek, HRV, Bronco. So I really don't see it so much as a lack of responsiveness on mfgs part, tho there are regulatory advantages to selling CUVs, I'm morally certain if Versa was turning Camry volume - despite tariffs complicating, solutions would be found. Conversely if Camry did Versa's last year, Georgetown would be repurposed. Attached File Good thoughts on the truck. I'm like you, tho still have a concern this whole spec sheet fits a Tata Yodha  with the 2.2 Vericor. It's a 6 lakh rupee truck retail in India - about $6k USD. With CKD shipping/duty and assembly in Texas, north of $20k leaves meat on the bone. Lot fits except regulatory. But a scratch built as described doesn't fit that either. It definately doesn't have the Toyota inspiration tho  |
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: The eggs were certainly hatching in the mid teens. Versa was the volume leader at or around just under 150k at peak. Sonic, Fit, Fiesta, Accent all sold 50-60k in the era. As volume went away so did the nameplates. Seems directly causal. You didn't have the tariff and on soil capacity pressures you have now. If the demand remained you'd expect it to shift to remaining low dollar hatches. But the last man standing did 50k in its last year - a tenth of the demand a decade ago. But they were constrained to globally available models and shifting market preference. It's how you got a 200k Trax - whose $21.5k entry MSRP get a replicates the $15k entry point for subcompacts in '15 - and lots of demand for other SubCompact Plus Utilities like Crosstrek, HRV, Bronco. So I really don't see it so much as a lack of responsiveness on mfgs part, tho there are regulatory advantages to selling CUVs, I'm morally certain if Versa was turning Camry volume - despite tariffs complicating, solutions would be found. Conversely if Camry did Versa's last year, Georgetown would be repurposed. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14291/IMG_3047_jpeg-3784222.JPG Good thoughts on the truck. I'm like you, tho still have a concern this whole spec sheet fits a Tata Yodha with the 2.2 Vericor. It's a 6 lakh rupee truck retail in India - about $6k USD. With CKD shipping/duty and assembly in Texas, north of $20k leaves meat on the bone. Lot fits except regulatory. But a scratch built as described doesn't either. It definately doesn't have the Toyota inspiration tho I like it but leaf sprung front and rear... But hey cheap has a price and it's your comfort and safety. |
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: The eggs were certainly hatching in the mid teens. Versa was the volume leader at or around just under 150k at peak. Sonic, Fit, Fiesta, Accent all sold 50-60k in the era. As volume went away so did the nameplates. Seems directly causal. You didn't have the tariff and on soil capacity pressures you have now. As I've asked what's the driver outside volume? Nice C-segs like Golf can't make it due to price. Nicer B segs don't get traction at higher pricing, regardless how compelling they are. I also don't think many in the segment were neglected. Fit (now HRV) and Fiesta were decent enough rides. If the demand remained you'd expect it to shift to remaining low dollar hatches. But the last man standing did 50k in its last year - a tenth of the demand a decade ago. But they were constrained to globally available models and shifting market preference. It's how you got a 200k Trax - whose $21.5k entry MSRP get a replicates the $15k entry point for subcompacts in '15 - and lots of demand for other SubCompact Plus Utilities like Crosstrek, HRV, Bronco. So I really don't see it so much as a lack of responsiveness on mfgs part, tho there are regulatory advantages to selling CUVs, I'm morally certain if Versa was turning Camry volume - despite tariffs complicating, solutions would be found. Conversely if Camry did Versa's last year, Georgetown would be repurposed. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14291/IMG_3047_jpeg-3784222.JPG Good thoughts on the truck. I'm like you, tho still have a concern this whole spec sheet fits a Tata Yodha with the 2.2 Vericor. It's a 6 lakh rupee truck retail in India - about $6k USD. With CKD shipping/duty and assembly in Texas, north of $20k leaves meat on the bone. Lot fits except regulatory. But a scratch built as described doesn't fit that either. It definately doesn't have the Toyota inspiration tho T100 lives on in the spice trade it seems. |
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Originally Posted By OregonShooter: I like it but leaf sprung front and rear... But hey cheap has a price and it's your comfort and safety. Originally Posted By OregonShooter: Originally Posted By Alacrity: The eggs were certainly hatching in the mid teens. Versa was the volume leader at or around just under 150k at peak. Sonic, Fit, Fiesta, Accent all sold 50-60k in the era. As volume went away so did the nameplates. Seems directly causal. You didn't have the tariff and on soil capacity pressures you have now. If the demand remained you'd expect it to shift to remaining low dollar hatches. But the last man standing did 50k in its last year - a tenth of the demand a decade ago. But they were constrained to globally available models and shifting market preference. It's how you got a 200k Trax - whose $21.5k entry MSRP get a replicates the $15k entry point for subcompacts in '15 - and lots of demand for other SubCompact Plus Utilities like Crosstrek, HRV, Bronco. So I really don't see it so much as a lack of responsiveness on mfgs part, tho there are regulatory advantages to selling CUVs, I'm morally certain if Versa was turning Camry volume - despite tariffs complicating, solutions would be found. Conversely if Camry did Versa's last year, Georgetown would be repurposed. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14291/IMG_3047_jpeg-3784222.JPG Good thoughts on the truck. I'm like you, tho still have a concern this whole spec sheet fits a Tata Yodha with the 2.2 Vericor. It's a 6 lakh rupee truck retail in India - about $6k USD. With CKD shipping/duty and assembly in Texas, north of $20k leaves meat on the bone. Lot fits except regulatory. But a scratch built as described doesn't either. It definately doesn't have the Toyota inspiration tho I like it but leaf sprung front and rear... But hey cheap has a price and it's your comfort and safety. Telcoline is a better truck that's the step up. Like Champ/Hilux tho they shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath. It's on par with Mahindra - not a compliment Attached File The more I'm exposed I'm getting Kijang vibes. If this shows with side curtains, respect Zach. The very best of 70s 3rd world design expectations. |
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Originally Posted By Ruark: Yeah..... can you lay a sheet of plywood in the back? For me, that's the deal maker. Originally Posted By Ruark: Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise: the specs are so vague... whats the damn bed length. Yeah..... can you lay a sheet of plywood in the back? For me, that's the deal maker. I understand 8' is bigger than almost anyone wants so my new standard is a couple full size dirt bikes with the tailgate closed. |
BikerNut:
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I understand 8' is bigger than almost anyone wants so my new standard is a couple full size dirt bikes with the tailgate closed. Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Originally Posted By Ruark: Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise: the specs are so vague... whats the damn bed length. Yeah..... can you lay a sheet of plywood in the back? For me, that's the deal maker. I understand 8' is bigger than almost anyone wants so my new standard is a couple full size dirt bikes with the tailgate closed. Everyone has their own preferences, but I DD'd a CCSB F-150 with a 5.5' bed for 5 years, and bed length was basically never the limitation for what I could or could not haul. I had access to a single cab long bed beater for first couple of those years, and the primary reason I'd grab the keys to haul something with that truck was bed height. It was exponentially easier to work out of, and I could even ride a mower into the bed with ramps. That's the biggest thing I miss about '80s and '90s trucks. That said, if I was shopping anything below the half ton class today, the Tacoma and Frontier would be at the top of my list because they still offer longer beds than the other guys. In the half ton class, I'd probably just grab another volume configuration truck off the lot with a 5.5' bed. It's fine for most things, and I have a trailer now. lol |
"Sometimes, the grass is greener because it's on a septic system."
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
Joined:
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Posts:
83
EE: 0% (0)
AZ, USA
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/subnetfavoritelol-1033.gif I feel you brother. Tho I'm an 18R-G guy, could we at least go 4Y EFI. And why would you want Californian emissions? That's the C. An 8R-E, maybe. Id be down for one of those 500,000 mile Hybrids too. But towing You may have missed the part about banking on Trumps promise . . .err comment. Or it's coming to market under current LSV provisions. The 8R-C Was reliable. I put 250k on one in a pickup. The CA emissions never interfered with drivability. 1 clutch and an alternator. Every friend that needed to move got the keys, never worried about it. As for letting the vaportruck go under LSV - that will be the kiss of death. States will immediately treat it like any other golf cart. The patchwork of laws and rules that already apply to the imported Kei trucks are bad enough. Here in Mohave County the RZR is a typical runabout. They have plates and insurance. They are in the parking lots at Home Depot, Walmart, and every restaurant. But in NV and CA... |
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Originally Posted By Everetts: The 8R-C Was reliable. I put 250k on one in a pickup. The CA emissions never interfered with drivability. 1 clutch and an alternator. Every friend that needed to move got the keys, never worried about it. As for letting the vaportruck go under LSV - that will be the kiss of death. States will immediately treat it like any other golf cart. The patchwork of laws and rules that already apply to the imported Kei trucks are bad enough. Here in Mohave County the RZR is a typical runabout. They have plates and insurance. They are in the parking lots at Home Depot, Walmart, and every restaurant. But in NV and CA... Originally Posted By Everetts: Originally Posted By Alacrity: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/subnetfavoritelol-1033.gif I feel you brother. Tho I'm an 18R-G guy, could we at least go 4Y EFI. And why would you want Californian emissions? That's the C. An 8R-E, maybe. Id be down for one of those 500,000 mile Hybrids too. But towing You may have missed the part about banking on Trumps promise . . .err comment. Or it's coming to market under current LSV provisions. The 8R-C Was reliable. I put 250k on one in a pickup. The CA emissions never interfered with drivability. 1 clutch and an alternator. Every friend that needed to move got the keys, never worried about it. As for letting the vaportruck go under LSV - that will be the kiss of death. States will immediately treat it like any other golf cart. The patchwork of laws and rules that already apply to the imported Kei trucks are bad enough. Here in Mohave County the RZR is a typical runabout. They have plates and insurance. They are in the parking lots at Home Depot, Walmart, and every restaurant. But in NV and CA... If we're wishing let's drop the Cali smog. Still I'm much more experienced with the 4Y and the OHV design allows for a short timing chain (double row like the ore 22R R engines) and really serious longevity. Even in absolutely shit African conditions. Id still be down for the latest hybrids powertrains that go 250-500k without issue. 10k oil changes, 45 mpg, twice the power. But I get nostalgia. The laws for Kei trucks are due to the fact they aren't road vehicles but equipment imported as farm, construction, and institutional non-road. Some chicanery gets current production imported on road. UTVs have status under Fed law and some States make provisions. Attached File I'm not averse, tho I'm realistic about my chances in an energetic event. 25 year exemption and no shenanigans needed to get legal on road. |
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Few more online outlets have articles now https://www.thedrive.com/news/texas-real-estate-guy-wants-to-make-a-21500-truck-he-got-5500-reservations-in-six-days https://www.topgear.com/car-news/usa/startup-wants-build-small-manual-ameri-kei-trucks-texas-21500 Create the wake, ride the wave.  Autotopian is great. Torch lays out his whole interview. Go check it out, he deserves the clicks. Some interesting stuff. Doing the hard work man - almost journalism  https://www.theautopian.com/reo-says-it-will-build-a-21500-truck-for-the-masses-i-spoke-to-the-ceo-to-see-if-theyre-legit/ Attached File Oh he's claiming REO is an abandoned IP asset . . .that explains much about the USPTO filing.  |
Tertium non datur
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Posts:
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EE: 0% (0)
AZ, USA
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: It was, the height of 70s design and production- at the MacDaddy Honsha plant. If we're wishing let's drop the Cali smog. Still I'm much more experienced with the 4Y and the OHV design allows for a short timing chain (double row like the ore 22R R engines) and really serious longevity. Even in absolutely shit African conditions. Id still be down for the latest hybrids powertrains that go 250-500k without issue. 10k oil changes, 45 mpg, twice the power. But I get nostalgia. The laws for Kei trucks are due to the fact they aren't road vehicles but equipment imported as farm, construction, and institutional non-road. Some chicanery gets current production imported on road. UTVs have status under Fed law and some States make provisions. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14291/IMG_2890_jpeg-3784316.JPG I'm not averse, tho I'm realistic about my chances in an energetic event. 25 year exemption and no shenanigans needed to get legal on road. 22R was a good powerplant too. CA smog was not too complicated. Let them have some emissions. I already have a Rav4 Hybrid. Yeah, gets 40 mpg. Complicated as hell. Would not want to keep it long term. Build quality is shit. Trim falling off. Body panels fit like mopar built it. Dealer support 100% shit. If we are talking "small" truck, what is needed is the Hilux / Tacoma / Courier / Datsun / LUV sized lightweight truck of the pre-84 era. The gigantic turd they call a Tacoma today is bigger than a full size 1980 F100. Too much bloat. As for the Kei trucks on the street. Here in AZ it is a license plate and insurance. But in NV there in NO path to legal Registration and on road use. Not allowed at all. The 25 year exemption will not apply to any new vehicles obviously. I have a clown of a neighbor that will take his Banshee up on I-40 once in a while for fun. While legal, I will pass on 80 mph runs on non DOT tires... |
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Originally Posted By Everetts: 22R was a good powerplant too. CA smog was not too complicated. Let them have some emissions. I already have a Rav4 Hybrid. Yeah, gets 40 mpg. Complicated as hell. Would not want to keep it long term. Build quality is shit. Trim falling off. Body panels fit like mopar built it. Dealer support 100% shit. If we are talking "small" truck, what is needed is the Hilux / Tacoma / Courier / Datsun / LUV sized lightweight truck of the pre-84 era. The gigantic turd they call a Tacoma today is bigger than a full size 1980 F100. Too much bloat. As for the Kei trucks on the street. Here in AZ it is a license plate and insurance. But in NV there in NO path to legal Registration and on road use. Not allowed at all. The 25 year exemption will not apply to any new vehicles obviously. I have a clown of a neighbor that will take his Banshee up on I-40 once in a while for fun. While legal, I will pass on 80 mph runs on non DOT tires... Originally Posted By Everetts: Originally Posted By Alacrity: It was, the height of 70s design and production- at the MacDaddy Honsha plant. If we're wishing let's drop the Cali smog. Still I'm much more experienced with the 4Y and the OHV design allows for a short timing chain (double row like the ore 22R R engines) and really serious longevity. Even in absolutely shit African conditions. Id still be down for the latest hybrids powertrains that go 250-500k without issue. 10k oil changes, 45 mpg, twice the power. But I get nostalgia. The laws for Kei trucks are due to the fact they aren't road vehicles but equipment imported as farm, construction, and institutional non-road. Some chicanery gets current production imported on road. UTVs have status under Fed law and some States make provisions. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14291/IMG_2890_jpeg-3784316.JPG I'm not averse, tho I'm realistic about my chances in an energetic event. 25 year exemption and no shenanigans needed to get legal on road. 22R was a good powerplant too. CA smog was not too complicated. Let them have some emissions. I already have a Rav4 Hybrid. Yeah, gets 40 mpg. Complicated as hell. Would not want to keep it long term. Build quality is shit. Trim falling off. Body panels fit like mopar built it. Dealer support 100% shit. If we are talking "small" truck, what is needed is the Hilux / Tacoma / Courier / Datsun / LUV sized lightweight truck of the pre-84 era. The gigantic turd they call a Tacoma today is bigger than a full size 1980 F100. Too much bloat. As for the Kei trucks on the street. Here in AZ it is a license plate and insurance. But in NV there in NO path to legal Registration and on road use. Not allowed at all. The 25 year exemption will not apply to any new vehicles obviously. I have a clown of a neighbor that will take his Banshee up on I-40 once in a while for fun. While legal, I will pass on 80 mph runs on non DOT tires... For an old school guy surprised you dig the 22R. Most reeeee'd when the single row timing chain came in and short skirt pistons - which got blamed for "ovaling". The oil consumption arriving by 50-75k wasn't that. Later peeps found the plastic timing system pieces - there's some issue there. They'd go as early as mid 100k's. Oil pressure tensioner > slack > timing chain would eat through the plastic guide and then the cover. Eminently avoidable. We'll disagree on Toyota HSD since the pool of early and later high milers is abundant. Attached File If it were my gig, doing an older Toyota petrol engine,I'd rather have a Y series hand down. Late 4Y EFI did everything better. Torque was handier than 22R. The timing chain was never the issue. Dumb fucking 3rd world maintenance choices/quality (mostly fluids) - even when on schedule - is what chopped these things down by 300k of abuse. I'd also be down for a 3L or 5L which are cockroach engines. They are anemic but will be around forever. Diesel adds cost and emissions so no go. The Tacoma sells more than ever so it's what buyers want  We'll see if size matters |
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Originally Posted By Bacon_Grease: That slate truck also looks pretty interesting. But I'm only down for one scam at a time. i was bored and played with their site last night. to get the truck where i would want it is was pushing 38k. no graphics simply base features. thats closer to something else with a better warranty and and dealer support for me. |
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Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: i was bored and played with their site last night. to get the truck where i would want it is was pushing 38k. no graphics simply base features. thats closer to something else with a better warranty and and dealer support for me. But virtually nobody walked away with a $19.995 Maverick either. Very few, percentage wise, leave a dealer with a zero option bad model. Tho many go in with exactly that intent. So it's not an uncommon strategy. Ford did a masterful job of cementing the reflexive, Maverick is a cheap truck, and killer deal. Then peeps drive home Tremors. We'll see what kind of magic Slate works. Definitely understand your point tho. |
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: The eggs were certainly hatching in the mid teens. Versa was the volume leader at or around just under 150k at peak. Sonic, Fit, Fiesta, Accent all sold 50-60k in the era. As volume went away so did the nameplates. Seems directly causal. You didn't have the tariff and on soil capacity pressures you have now. As I've asked what's the driver outside volume? Nice C-segs like Golf can't make it due to price. Nicer B segs don't get traction at higher pricing, regardless how compelling they are. I also don't think many in the segment were neglected. Fit (now HRV) and Fiesta were decent enough rides. I'd pay GR Corolla money for a GR Yaris. I'd be down for a new 208 GTI or A290. But electric Which is the other issue for smalls in the States. Further Divergence. The Mini is premium and decent but hasn't beat 30k in how long? If the demand remained you'd expect it to shift to remaining low dollar hatches. But the last man standing did 50k in its last year - a tenth of the demand a decade ago. But they were constrained to globally available models and shifting market preference. It's how you got a 200k Trax - whose $21.5k entry MSRP get a replicates the $15k entry point for subcompacts in '15 - and lots of demand for other SubCompact Plus Utilities like Crosstrek, HRV, Bronco. So I really don't see it so much as a lack of responsiveness on mfgs part, tho there are regulatory advantages to selling CUVs, I'm morally certain if Versa was turning Camry volume - despite tariffs complicating, solutions would be found. Conversely if Camry did Versa's last year, Georgetown would be repurposed. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14291/IMG_3047_jpeg-3784222.JPG Good thoughts on the truck. I'm like you, tho still have a concern this whole spec sheet fits a Tata Yodha with the 2.2 Vericor. It's a 6 lakh rupee truck retail in India - about $6k USD. With CKD shipping/duty and assembly in Texas, north of $20k leaves meat on the bone. Lot fits except regulatory. But a scratch built as described doesn't fit that either. It definately doesn't have the Toyota inspiration tho At a glance the Yodha looks interesting from my point of view. Fairly simple and no frills. If there was s support network for this type vehicle in the States I would take a long, hard look at it. Here's the scenario. Piccolo buys one for $19995 and everyone admires it and wants one or THINK they do. "I can't drive a manual." So they add one for another few bucks. "I need my A/C" Another expense. "What about the automatic ass scratcher Ford just invented for long trips?" Inside of 10 years it forgets where it came from and what it was designed td do and morphs into just another Ford, Chevy or Toyota and MSRP has gone up to $35K+. Back to Square One. |
http://piccoloshash.blogspot.com
Vote "YES" on 'NO'!
For Captain Erick Foster, Wexford, PA KIA 29 Aug, 07.
Rangers lead the way.
Inspected by #26
I was checking out this midget porn website....
Vote "YES" on 'NO'!
For Captain Erick Foster, Wexford, PA KIA 29 Aug, 07.
Rangers lead the way.
Inspected by #26
I was checking out this midget porn website....
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: "Ratcheting" and post delivery option purchases - years after - were an explicit aspects of their operational pitches me marketing plans. Periodic spend never summed. But virtually nobody walked away with a $19.995 Maverick very few, percentage wise, leave a dealer with a zero option bad model. Tho many go in with exactly that intent. Definitely understand your point tho. Originally Posted By Alacrity: Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: i was bored and played with their site last night. to get the truck where i would want it is was pushing 38k. no graphics simply base features. thats closer to something else with a better warranty and and dealer support for me. But virtually nobody walked away with a $19.995 Maverick very few, percentage wise, leave a dealer with a zero option bad model. Tho many go in with exactly that intent. Definitely understand your point tho. I don't know if the Maverick is the most fair example. The Maverick was unveiled in June of 2021, and production started that fall. And, like most models, Ford prioritized early production to premium configurations. The issue with that timeline is that this was right around the time that pricing on everything in the industry rocketed. Basic F-150 XLT SuperCrews went from a street price of ~$37k to $55k+ around that time frame. There were little to no incentives, and those trucks were selling for pretty much MSRP. Things have since settled as the market softened, but there's still the caveat that the US dollar lost 20-30% of its buying power in that time. |
"Sometimes, the grass is greener because it's on a septic system."
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: I don't know if the Maverick is the most fair example. The Maverick was unveiled in June of 2021, and production started that fall. And, like most models, Ford prioritized early production to premium configurations. The issue with that timeline is that this was right around the time that pricing on everything in the industry rocketed. Basic F-150 XLT SuperCrews went from a street price of ~$37k to $55k+ around that time frame. There were little to no incentives, and those trucks were selling for pretty much MSRP. Things have since settled as the market softened, but there's still the caveat that the US dollar lost 20-30% of its buying power in that time. Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By Alacrity: Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: i was bored and played with their site last night. to get the truck where i would want it is was pushing 38k. no graphics simply base features. thats closer to something else with a better warranty and and dealer support for me. But virtually nobody walked away with a $19.995 Maverick very few, percentage wise, leave a dealer with a zero option bad model. Tho many go in with exactly that intent. Definitely understand your point tho. I don't know if the Maverick is the most fair example. The Maverick was unveiled in June of 2021, and production started that fall. And, like most models, Ford prioritized early production to premium configurations. The issue with that timeline is that this was right around the time that pricing on everything in the industry rocketed. Basic F-150 XLT SuperCrews went from a street price of ~$37k to $55k+ around that time frame. There were little to no incentives, and those trucks were selling for pretty much MSRP. Things have since settled as the market softened, but there's still the caveat that the US dollar lost 20-30% of its buying power in that time. Perspective variable I suppose. |
Tertium non datur
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Originally Posted By DirtyDirk: I like what I see so far, gas I4 engine, manual trans. some more detail please. What engine? some Toyota or Honda engine I suspect. looks like the old s-10 size or even smaller. I can live with that. biggest downside so far is 4wd only it looks like. I put maybe 3-5K miles a year on a vehicle. I'd love a simple no frills vehicle. Tired of all the crap on new Vehicles. 87% I wouldn't or don't use. I'll hide and watch. I'll wait till they come out and have some time mfg under their belt before I'd pull the trigger. $65k+ for shitty dodge, ford, chevy has me looking at Frontier and Ridgeline for a sub $45k pickup (faux-truck). But I am in no hurry either. My aversion to CANBUS from the big 3 affords me time to wait. 4wd that doesn't suck and snap when going in reverse would be beneficial to many. |
3rd generation NRA life member
Screw it... just pass me another cup of coffee and to hell with Joe
Screw it... just pass me another cup of coffee and to hell with Joe
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: Peeps still talk as if Mav is a least cost option and best value. Is it? All peeps recall is it's like $20k right. That follows or maybe even drives them to the franchisee - then the machine goes to work. My edit above was to clarify but I do get your point. Perspective variable I suppose. Originally Posted By Alacrity: Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Originally Posted By Alacrity: Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: i was bored and played with their site last night. to get the truck where i would want it is was pushing 38k. no graphics simply base features. thats closer to something else with a better warranty and and dealer support for me. But virtually nobody walked away with a $19.995 Maverick very few, percentage wise, leave a dealer with a zero option bad model. Tho many go in with exactly that intent. Definitely understand your point tho. I don't know if the Maverick is the most fair example. The Maverick was unveiled in June of 2021, and production started that fall. And, like most models, Ford prioritized early production to premium configurations. The issue with that timeline is that this was right around the time that pricing on everything in the industry rocketed. Basic F-150 XLT SuperCrews went from a street price of ~$37k to $55k+ around that time frame. There were little to no incentives, and those trucks were selling for pretty much MSRP. Things have since settled as the market softened, but there's still the caveat that the US dollar lost 20-30% of its buying power in that time. Perspective variable I suppose. Least cost? Or best value? A half-ass stroll around Autotrader listings for my area shows the magic number for a Maverick XLT to be about $33k. Moving up to a Ranger XLT drives the price point up to around $41k. That's substantial, but there is a difference in what you get. Flipping over to Nissan, a Frontier SV seems to go for about $37k. Colorado LT is about the same, and Tacoma SR5 checks in around $45k with most examples being higher. The Maverick is objectively the least cost, especially once things like fuel economy and consumables are factored in. Best value is a lot more subjective. I'd probably put the Frontier on that podium based on the above numbers, but there's a case to debate. |
"Sometimes, the grass is greener because it's on a septic system."
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
"Sporterizing: The art of spending $700 on a $300 gun to make it worth $200." -GTwannabe
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: Peeps still talk as if Mav is a least cost option and best value. Is it? All peeps recall is it's like $20k right. That follows or maybe even drives them to the franchisee - then the machine goes to work. My edit above was to clarify but I do get your point. Perspective variable I suppose. Is it possible to still order a truck directly from the factory through a dealer that does do add-ons, for any of the manufacturers? |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By GenYRevolverGuy: Least cost? Or best value? A half-ass stroll around Autotrader listings for my area shows the magic number for a Maverick XLT to be about $33k. Moving up to a Ranger XLT drives the price point up to around $41k. That's substantial, but there is a difference in what you get. Flipping over to Nissan, a Frontier SV seems to go for about $37k. Colorado LT is about the same, and Tacoma SR5 checks in around $45k with most examples being higher. The Maverick is objectively the least cost, especially once things like fuel economy and consumables are factored in. Best value is a lot more subjective. I'd probably put the Frontier on that podium based on the above numbers, but there's a case to debate. Attached File But I'm not talking about literal market analysis comparing actual price. Thats not what the average American public does. Peeps that wallow in this shit like us are stunned, but holy shit what moves people to sign on the line. More - 'Heeey .. that's cool, I like that look, and color! Shit Maverick!? . . Hm . I think I can afford those cos they're cheap, and damn I'd look good in it. So cuuute'. Insidious injections. Like the 6 year old kid that knows Orange Bottle is the detergent you buy. All that $20k plastered around resonated and stuck. Even if that buyer never saw the price in an ad. Look at how it comes up here in most every thread.Im reflecting on numerous interactions - employees, friends, acquaintances, relatives who've made statements to the effect of "That $20k truck" or " those are really cheap right". Thats the kind of rent free squatting marketeers aim for, but rarely achieve. As when I heard "It's a 300 horsepower V6" from a series of people who wouldn't know a Duratec Ti-VCT from their ass. Props Ford.! Prolly not to Elena Ford but she's the only name I can recall from the period. Someone at 1 American Road was getting it done. Or there's lots of organic coincidences. Since peeps get the shit for failures regardless, should get the love as well. Fair number of peeps I've engaged about their new Mav's more than one (tho I can only specifically recall a couple) quipped after I said how impressed I was,"It was more than I expected, but it's reeeallly nice" or "I spent more than I wanted but I got exactly what I wanted"  . I see patterns and find meaning in all this (and more widely) that may not always be there. But that's the impression I've been left with. |
Tertium non datur
Joined:
May 2026
Posts:
93
EE: 0% (0)
AZ, USA
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Ah the Maverick. The Escape Platform. I had an Escape Hybrid. Wonderful piece of equipment. Plenty of power. Great mileage. Ergonomics, controls etc spot on. good ride quality. I would probably still have it, if the uninsured illegal in the chebby Silvertaco had not driven in to the back end of it @ 45 mph while we were stopped at a signal. I went and looked at a new Maverick a few weeks ago. Ugh. Touch screen bullshit. Want to adjust the A/C? Find a place to pull over & flip through screens. The goddamn Rav4 screen is bad enough, at least it has a knob for cabin temp. Told the dealer the touch screen was a nope. I bought a new Ranger in 1986. Bulletproof. The 2.3L 4 banger went 314,000 miles. 2 clutches and alternator bearings a couple of times. Never replaced a fuel system part other than a filter. Timing belt every 60k by the book. Most reliable vehicle I ever owned. Small truck - lean over and open the passenger door with your seatbelt on. I am not asking for rubber mats and roll up windows. Even my '86 had A/C. But the previously mentioned "automatic ass scratcher" is part of the problem with new offerings. |
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: "Ratcheting" and post delivery option purchases - years after - were an explicit aspects of their operational pitches and marketing plans. Periodic spend never summed. But virtually nobody walked away with a $19.995 Maverick either. Very few, percentage wise, leave a dealer with a zero option bad model. Tho many go in with exactly that intent. So it's not an uncommon strategy. Ford did a masterful job of cementing the reflexive, Maverick is a cheap truck, and killer deal. Then peeps drive home Tremors. We'll see what kind of magic Slate works. Definitely understand your point tho. Originally Posted By Alacrity: Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: i was bored and played with their site last night. to get the truck where i would want it is was pushing 38k. no graphics simply base features. thats closer to something else with a better warranty and and dealer support for me. But virtually nobody walked away with a $19.995 Maverick either. Very few, percentage wise, leave a dealer with a zero option bad model. Tho many go in with exactly that intent. So it's not an uncommon strategy. Ford did a masterful job of cementing the reflexive, Maverick is a cheap truck, and killer deal. Then peeps drive home Tremors. We'll see what kind of magic Slate works. Definitely understand your point tho. I think Slate built their whole pricing model expecting the $7500 fed credit to stay in place. |
BikerNut:
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
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Originally Posted By Lexustech48: Laughs in 109F ambient. Fuck yes AC is mandatory. People for years lived fine without AC. AC has created people who are weak and soft like Jello. (typed as I sit in the AC) |
RIP Jeff Reed. Tennessee Squire, Ga. Carry member, NRA,Non-puking 72 ounce drinker 2 of 6 Norcal call sign, Forgotten.
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Originally Posted By whiskerz: People for years lived fine without AC. AC has created people who are weak and soft like Jello. (typed as I sit in the AC) Originally Posted By whiskerz: Originally Posted By Lexustech48: Laughs in 109F ambient. Fuck yes AC is mandatory. People for years lived fine without AC. AC has created people who are weak and soft like Jello. (typed as I sit in the AC) Buildings also used to be designed to not have ac, I grew up in such a house. It would get up to about 80 and then level off. We had lots of fans and the windows were situated for good cross flow. My current house is 80 years newer than that house was, and when the power goes out in the summer it gets hot and stuffy instantly. Fans help some but not much.  Edit: whoops we're taking about cars. Same deal though, vent windows were the tits, especially when you swing them around to blast air up the leg of your shorts. 
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Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords may not be a basis for a system of government, but strange men distributing Kalashnikovs from the back of a Toyota certainly can be.
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Originally Posted By whiskerz: People for years lived fine without AC. Originally Posted By whiskerz: Originally Posted By Lexustech48: Laughs in 109F ambient. Fuck yes AC is mandatory. People for years lived fine without AC. Yeah if you want to go to work smelling like sweaty ass, and your boss and coworkers are ok with it. Body odor was a big part of life in the south before A/C was commonplace, but it's not really socially acceptable in 2026, unless you are an illegal immigrant or a third worldie. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
| I think I've done ok adapting to the heat here but one thing I haven't been able to do is be able to sleep when it's hot. I assume it's because I grew up in SE AK and it basically never got hot. I'm sure my body would eventually do it if forced to but who the hell wants that. I could handle a car with no AC here for most of the year but for at least a month I'd be miserable. No thanks. |
BikerNut:
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
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The SW US would have 100 million less people in it without AC. Debating the need for HVAC in new vehicles in 2026 is ridiculous. Modern vehicles are designed in conjunction with modern HVAC because that is what new vehicle buyers expect. |
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: Versa? That 20% represents 10k more units to 51k yearly. Its main competitor the Mirage went out in '24. So the current entire consolidated demand for sub $20k base cars (because most peeps don't transact base which is another discussion) is half a hundred k. Bit over a decade ago that nameplate did 150k regularly. It was a class volume leader - mostly due to price and subpar credit acceptance (which is another aspect mfgs prefer to avoid), but competitors consistently did more than Versa did last year. Where did that demand go? What's forcing people from buying low cost small cars? Because despite these near conspiratorial lamentation, if those models peak volumes were still intact, so would their availability. Originally Posted By Alacrity: Originally Posted By Ligore: Originally Posted By OregonShooter: Because actual sales data says they don't and the fact that the Nissan Versa was cancelled due to low sales despite being the cheapest new car in the US is proof. Not enough people agree with you to make a vehicle viable. The vast majority of buyers that cannot afford a new luxury vehicle will choose to buy a used vehicle instead of a stripped new one. Manufacturers sell new cars to new car buyers. New car buyers want more vehicle content not less so new vehicles moved up market. The Nissan sales were up 20% in 2025. You do not want to buy a vehicle so nobody else should. House expensive, cars expensive and a lot of people priced out of what was normal life. Bit over a decade ago that nameplate did 150k regularly. It was a class volume leader - mostly due to price and subpar credit acceptance (which is another aspect mfgs prefer to avoid), but competitors consistently did more than Versa did last year. Where did that demand go? What's forcing people from buying low cost small cars? Because despite these near conspiratorial lamentation, if those models peak volumes were still intact, so would their availability. |
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Originally Posted By Ligore: Why do you bother to post on this is the question? Why do you care at all about this? Someone that wants to buy this has a reason. What is your reason? This odd problem of people getting mad at the concept of a cheap vehicle for sale is of course a detriment. He is attempting to add context and explanation as to why there are not more cheap vehicles.and the reason there isn't is because there's not enough buyers. |
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Sometimes I really wonder why Toyota just doesn't spend the money and make this a global offering. $15,000 USD for a Hilux Champ would be cheaper farm vehicle than glorified golf carts  Toyota HiLux Champ – Full Owner’s Review | Could It Ever Come to the USA, Australia or UK? |
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Originally Posted By SheltiePimp: Sometimes I really wonder why Toyota just doesn't spend the money and make this a global offering. $15,000 USD for a Hilux Champ would be cheaper farm vehicle than glorified golf carts  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQSj7BwidhUEven as an offroad only vehicle it would be expensive and uncompetitive in the US market. |
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I put down a deposit, it’ll be fun to see the development. I’ve got a 1990 Toyota stashed away and the REO is slated to be 4” longer, 4” wider, and 4” taller. It’s actually amazing how diminutive those old compact pickups are! I could see these being a hit in the off-road world. Instead of bouncing a $70k Wrangler or Bronco off some rocks, the REO family a vehicles could really fill a void. I wonder who they’re going to source the drivetrain through? |
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I agree with the others that this is vaporware, but Slate is coming, but the question with Slate is the MSRP has risen and the EV tax credit is gone, now Slate is pushing a stripper vehicle against Mavericks and others. Kei vehicles are what GD wants but won't buy. |
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Originally Posted By AKSig: Maybe 2-3 people out of all the bullshitters here that said they would buy a basic bitch truck if they could will get one. That's not exactly what most people are referring to when they talk about wanting a plain no frills truck. They want to purchase a tool without being forced to buy tons of unnecessary options. Manufacturers gate keep necessary utility options behind expensive packages. Like mother fkr I don't need a $10,000 20" media screen, leather and carpet option package. I need a rear locker. |
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Originally Posted By OregonShooter: He is attempting to add context and explanation as to why there are not more cheap vehicles.and the reason there isn't is because there's not enough buyers. Originally Posted By OregonShooter: Originally Posted By Ligore: Why do you bother to post on this is the question? Why do you care at all about this? Someone that wants to buy this has a reason. What is your reason? This odd problem of people getting mad at the concept of a cheap vehicle for sale is of course a detriment. He is attempting to add context and explanation as to why there are not more cheap vehicles.and the reason there isn't is because there's not enough buyers. With varying levels of success.Appreciate the fair explanation. I thought it was evident There's a pool of individuals that fully misunderstands the nature of car making. It's a business that cares, not one iota of personal whim, on an individual level. Only ultimately in creating shareholder value, or to an extent serving wider stakeholder interests. When it doesn't conflict with the former, in continuation of the enterprise. Producing low margin vehicles in insufficient volumes isn't supportive of this goal. It's not personal despite the complaints in this thread. This entirely precludes accommodating buyers without adequate return tho. In this case, providing low cost vehicles which do not pay thier own way. @Ligore - it's clear you're displeased with what I've written. But it would serve better to exchange your flurry of dubious questions, with a cogent analysis of where I am wrong. Because I'm wrong before breakfast - especially today - than most peeps are all week. I don't think I'm off here but lay out why you feel slighted and I'll do my best to engage any criticism, keeping to the facts. Including amending or reversing my statements. Happily. I'm instructed daily here. That has value. FWIW I do think it's a shame cheaper options in certain segments aren't availble. Tho as earlier 2026 B crossovers like Trax and Venue are priced near identically to inflation adjusted pricing for Sonic, Fit, Fiesta and Accent. Current K4, Elantra, and Sentra aren't far off. Not B segment hatches, but they are much better and larger cars. Kicks and Trailblazer are in the mix as well. So tho Versa and Mirage, historically the least cost tho arguably the least value B-Segs, are gone - and you seem to be exercised by this - it's not as if choices at the bottom have evaporated. |
Tertium non datur
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Originally Posted By OregonShooter: He is attempting to add context and explanation as to why there are not more cheap vehicles.and the reason there isn't is because there's not enough buyers. I hasten to add that some portion of the high prices is due to government requirements. I don't know the $ amount, but I believe it is significant. Maybe someone here can quantify it. |
Don't confuse where I live with where I'm from.
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Originally Posted By Emoto: I hasten to add that some portion of the high prices is due to government requirements. I don't know the $ amount, but I believe it is significant. Maybe someone here can quantify it. But as examples I give often over time, prices for vehicles track inflation closely. Base MSRP for Japanese mass market sedans from 1985 - 2025 very close when inflation adjusted. Camry '85 LE Sedan to '25 LE Sedan is very comparable adjusted for inflation. I'd expect huge increases given all the regulators demand In my response to Ligore above the same for like B-Segments models from 2015-2025 So despite this idea that regs and imperial entanglements are a problem - they don't effectively increase MSRP over time. In fact those segment's are better equipped and appointed, are more powerful, faster and yet more efficient (Current Camry LE rated at 53/50 which Metro XFi the 90s mpg champ cant do on current cycles) larger, quieter with better manners, and indeed safer and tho this will activate some - in many aspects delivering better QRD. Automotive engineering never get the credit for delivering more for less. Offsetting the increased regulation and customer demands which is effectively a less expensive product for features delivered. Given all the hate industry engineers receive, the failure to make that recognition, is the most hateful of all. There's caveats - FOREX, capital and other costs, etc that are also drivers, tho not always positive. Could be peevishly argued without regs, we could be driving cheaper cars than the 80s. But overall much credit is deserved and "high prices" aren't comparatively any higher than earlier periods. |
Tertium non datur
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Originally Posted By Alacrity: Sure that percentage is quoted variously. But as examples I give often over time, prices for vehicles track inflation closely. Base MSRP for Japanese mass market sedans from 1985 - 2025 very close when inflation adjusted. Camry '85 LE Sedan to '25 LE Sedan is very comparable adjusted for inflation. I'd expect huge increases given all the regulators demand In my response to Ligore above the same for like B-Segments models from 2015-2025 So despite this idea that regs and imperial entanglements are a problem - they don't effectively increase MSRP over time. In fact those segment's are better equipped and appointed, are more powerful, faster and yet more efficient (Current Camry LE rated at 53/50 which Metro XFi the 90s mpg champ cant do on current cycles) larger, quieter with better manners, and indeed safer and tho this will activate some - in many aspects delivering better QRD. Automotive engineering never get the credit for delivering more for less. Offsetting the increased regulation and customer demands which is effectively a less expensive product for features delivered. Given all the hate industry engineers receive, the failure to make that recognition, is the most hateful of all. There's caveats - FOREX, capital and other costs, etc that are also drivers, tho not always positive. Could be peevishly argued without regs, we could be driving cheaper cars than the 80s. But overall much credit is deserved and "high prices" aren't comparatively any higher than earlier periods. Your right on in the sedan segment. Looking at pickups it's completely different. You compare the price of a 1985 base F150 to one built in 2025 and its ~65% more expensive inflation adjusted for the same cab configuration. |
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Originally Posted By OregonShooter: Your right on in the sedan segment. Looking at pickups it's completely different. You compare the price of a 1985 base F150 to one built in 2025 and its ~65% more expensive inflation adjusted for the same cab configuration. Originally Posted By OregonShooter: Originally Posted By Alacrity: Sure that percentage is quoted variously. But as examples I give often over time, prices for vehicles track inflation closely. Base MSRP for Japanese mass market sedans from 1985 - 2025 very close when inflation adjusted. Camry '85 LE Sedan to '25 LE Sedan is very comparable adjusted for inflation. I'd expect huge increases given all the regulators demand In my response to Ligore above the same for like B-Segments models from 2015-2025 So despite this idea that regs and imperial entanglements are a problem - they don't effectively increase MSRP over time. In fact those segment's are better equipped and appointed, are more powerful, faster and yet more efficient (Current Camry LE rated at 53/50 which Metro XFi the 90s mpg champ cant do on current cycles) larger, quieter with better manners, and indeed safer and tho this will activate some - in many aspects delivering better QRD. Automotive engineering never get the credit for delivering more for less. Offsetting the increased regulation and customer demands which is effectively a less expensive product for features delivered. Given all the hate industry engineers receive, the failure to make that recognition, is the most hateful of all. There's caveats - FOREX, capital and other costs, etc that are also drivers, tho not always positive. Could be peevishly argued without regs, we could be driving cheaper cars than the 80s. But overall much credit is deserved and "high prices" aren't comparatively any higher than earlier periods. Your right on in the sedan segment. Looking at pickups it's completely different. You compare the price of a 1985 base F150 to one built in 2025 and its ~65% more expensive inflation adjusted for the same cab configuration. Crossovers were at best nascent. Small cars have evaporated. Premium Japan didn't exist and Premium Europe is much cheaper due to exchange and democratization of Luxury. That pricing trend isn't as pronounced in mid-sized import trucks, and higher trims not at all. So we can start with FST is the prominent outlier. Crew cab (hence the "crew") trucks as personal transportation didn't arrive - mid or half ton - until this century. Extended cabs weren't ubiquitous as doubles are today. The expansion of commercial grade conveyance to high expectation consumer personal transport (interior and ride refinement, NVH, power competition,, appointments) all added cost. Size has scaled, as has efforts. They are Detroit's profit engine and its pinnacle effort, as it should be. It's fair to say more effort, talent, money, planning, and competitive elevating (multi configuration tailgates an instructive example) all played a part. Detroit needs trucks and people drive them as primary vehicles more than ever. With those shifts over 40 years its not nearly as clean a comparison as Japan midsized, which has very similar market intentions from similar consumer demands. Regardless if regulatory demands were driving outsized consumer cost burdens and creating unaffordability, you'd see it in Mid Sedans. It hasn't happened. So regs isn't the wolf at the door as consistently made out. |
Tertium non datur
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Originally Posted By Ligore: Imagine how it would go if in one of the threads complaining about beef prices there was those that posted the sales numbers for cheap beef are not there. Buy expensive beef past its experation date. Well of course cheap beef sales are down. Try finding any. The Price of US retail beef is a simple explanation but that has nothing to do with automotive manufacturing, or vehicle demand. That is an entirely unrelated thread. |
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Looks like the Slate MSRP is now $25000. Doesn't look bad but probably going to be at least $30000 all said and done. For $30K+ I'd rather have a base Maverick, Frontier or Colorado I think. I Rode in Slate’s $24,950 Electric Truck.   |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By _DR: Looks like the Slate MSRP is now $25000. Doesn't look bad but probably going to be at least $30000 all said and done. For $30K+ I'd rather have a base Maverick, Frontier or Colorado I think. I Rode in Slate’s $24,950 Electric Truck. https://i.postimg.cc/d37j0Jtd/IMG-7371-e1782391606968.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/MX2VKRFV/IMG-7384.jpg The original price was $27,500. The US federal government is no longer giving $7,500 tax credits for purchasing an EV. |
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Originally Posted By Emoto: The Slate is an EV. Well, we know this. I generally don't like EVs over ICE. But IF the EV vehicle was cheap enough I would consider one as a utilitarian vehicle. Obviously the Slate isn't cheap enough to be worth a look. But it had been discussed in another thread, that's why I brought it up in the context of this thread's topic. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By OregonShooter: The original price was $27,500. The US federal government is no longer giving $7,500 tax credits for purchasing an EV. Originally Posted By OregonShooter: Originally Posted By _DR: Looks like the Slate MSRP is now $25000. Doesn't look bad but probably going to be at least $30000 all said and done. For $30K+ I'd rather have a base Maverick, Frontier or Colorado I think. I Rode in Slate’s $24,950 Electric Truck. https://i.postimg.cc/d37j0Jtd/IMG-7371-e1782391606968.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/MX2VKRFV/IMG-7384.jpg The original price was $27,500. The US federal government is no longer giving $7,500 tax credits for purchasing an EV. Sure. But a gov rebate shouldn't be figured into the MSRP of a product, at least in my opinion. Those things should and usually are rebated after the MSRP is stated by the manufacturer. Otherwise it's shady (in my opinion). |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"