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Posted: 3/26/2022 7:42:37 AM EDT
[#1]
  
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Posted: 3/26/2022 7:51:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: How do you guys balance self defense while being a Christian? I have Christian friends and they say that you shouldn't kill someone to save your family because its murder. How would you guys respond?
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Posted: 3/26/2022 7:59:30 AM EDT
[#3]
I think it's evident from the Bible and history that martyrdom has been used by God to advance his kingdom. With that said, I see a difference between publicly proclaiming your faith in the face of evil earthly powers bent on your death, and some random nut killing your family in the middle of the night. It shouldn't be too difficult to discern between these different types of situations.
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Posted: 3/26/2022 8:07:03 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 3/26/2022 8:13:59 AM EDT
[#5]
Martyrdom is a personal choice. Getting shot by a bad guy is not.
Like others have said- difference between killing and murder. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 8:14:03 AM EDT
[#6]
That rationale, that you shouldn't try to defend yourself, or take it on faith that if God wants it to be ok it will be ok, is ridiculous.
My personal faith refuses to believe that it is God's will for me to try to give a crackhead a hug while he murders my family. IMO, that I'd the same as saying, "I don't wear my seat belt because if God wants me to die in a wreck then so be it". Or "I don't have a job because if God wants me to eat he will provide". |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 8:29:03 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: I think it's evident from the Bible and history that martyrdom has been used by God to advance his kingdom. With that said, I see a difference between publicly proclaiming your faith in the face of evil earthly powers bent on your death, and some random nut killing your family in the middle of the night. It shouldn't be too difficult to discern between these different types of situations. Quoted: Martyrdom is a personal choice. Getting shot by a bad guy is not. Like others have said- difference between killing and murder. Its not martyrdom that is the problem. Its that they say that killing someone who is harming your family is wrong because you are going against God's will. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 8:40:22 AM EDT
[#8]
I'm a Christian, and a pretty nice guy IRL (contrary to some of my posts
) But if someone threatens me or those I care about, I will absolutely remove them from this life without hesitation. Christianity is no excuse for being a pansy- IMO if you won't protect (with violence when neccessary) what God has charged you to provide and care for, then you have no business calling yourself a Christian or a man. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 8:50:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Like 22:36?
They weren't buying them to cosplay with.
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Posted: 3/26/2022 8:52:20 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its not martyrdom that is the problem. Its that they say that killing someone who is harming your family is wrong because you are going against God's will. Maybe God Wills you to buy a gun to kill the guy that God allegedly willed to try to kill you. Free will and all that. God doesn't intercede as much as people may think. He lets free will take its course in nearly every instance. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:17:37 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: How do you guys balance self defense while being a Christian? I have Christian friends and they say that you shouldn't kill someone to save your family because its murder. How would you guys respond? We've been lied to by the King of England. The commandment, as written in hebrew does not say thou shalt not kill. It says thou shalt not murder. Big difference between murder and kill. A Jewish school friend of mine explained that to me almost 50 years ago. Some christians are so hung up on the King James bible being "the only bible" they don't know it's not only not the first "bible" but as translations were made from the first bible through the centuries into other languages the words/intent of the bible were changed. Killing to protect yourself or you family, or your friends isn't the sin you think it is. Murdering someone to take something of theirs or for the fun/thrill of it is a sin. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:20:26 AM EDT
[#12]
Murder vs killing
Learn the difference. God does not expect you to let the rapist into your house to have his way with your wife and/or teenage daughter while you do nothing. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:23:02 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: How do you guys balance self defense while being a Christian? I have Christian friends and they say that you shouldn't kill someone to save your family because its murder. How would you guys respond? Don’t ever put yourself and your family in relying on these “friends” for protection. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:39:26 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: How do you guys balance self defense while being a Christian? I have Christian friends and they say that you shouldn't kill someone to save your family because its murder. How would you guys respond? I'd probably call them stupid and tell them to go read it again.  You sure they aren't really just pacifists? |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:42:28 AM EDT
[#15]
I know of a denomination that is confused on that subject, but have guys with guns in the church just in case.
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:50:13 AM EDT
[#16]
thank you
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:51:39 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it's evident from the Bible and history that martyrdom has been used by God to advance his kingdom. With that said, I see a difference between publicly proclaiming your faith in the face of evil earthly powers bent on your death, and some random nut killing your family in the middle of the night. It shouldn't be too difficult to discern between these different types of situations. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:52:13 AM EDT
[#18]
thank you for pointing out these verses
even as a child i wondered about the wording |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:53:46 AM EDT
[#19]
thank you for these verses
even as a child i wondered about the wording |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:55:39 AM EDT
[#20]
thank you for these verses
even as a child i wondered about the wording for the fifth commandment |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:58:11 AM EDT
[#21]
Hello fellow Christian enthusiast.
There is a vast difference between killing and murder… but you already know that. If you think that “being a good Christian” means that you have to stand by and watch your family get slaughtered because “thou shalt not kill”, then I cannot help you. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:59:34 AM EDT
[#22]
thank you for these verses
as a child i wondered about the wording of the fifth commandment |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 10:30:19 AM EDT
[#23]
Agreed that there is a big difference between murder and justified homicide, like SD.
When Jesus spoke about turning the other cheek, this is the situation he was referencing (watch the video, it’s short and worth it):  He Knocked Preacher Down and Felt Instant Regret.. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 10:34:18 AM EDT
[#24]
There's nothing to "balance".
I consider it my DUTY to protect my family. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 11:01:11 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: How do you guys balance self defense while being a Christian? I have Christian friends and they say that you shouldn't kill someone to save your family because its murder. How would you guys respond? I'd say they are fools 18Z50 |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 11:02:05 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed that there is a big difference between murder and justified homicide, like SD. When Jesus spoke about turning the other cheek, this is the situation he was referencing (watch the video, it’s short and worth it):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EqreWeReJoGreat example. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 11:31:19 AM EDT
[#27]
Sounds like your friends need to actually read the Bible.
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Posted: 3/26/2022 12:39:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Read the bible? Responses can range from killing an entire lineage, to tyrning the other cheek. Cultural christianity of today is garbage as displayed by your helplessness in thought.
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Posted: 3/26/2022 1:23:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Sell your cloak and buy a sword. I'm pretty sure that's all the Jesus justification one might need.
As a matter of academics, the injunction in the Hebrew scriptures which became the 10 commandments is not that one shall not kill any human at all for any reason. It. The injunction was really focused on not killing other jews either accidentally or as a murder. It distinctly excludes killing which is commanded by god and killing done in such circumstances as warfare. As with nearly all holy books, the rules in the bible that talk about being loving to other people are there to benefit the followers of the faith and no shits are given about the goyim. Even as a matter of killing of fellow jews the injunction is not absolute. Under jewish law there were an extremely large number of act that one jew "should" kill another jew for committing. Translations of the Jewish scriptures from Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek over the millennia, especially the translations into and from Greek, have been shoddy to say the least and subsequent translations of earlier translated works into Latin only exacerbated the issue. Centuries after the scriptures were translated to Latin (which was for centuries the language of scholarship) they were translated to other languages with varying levels of conformance to the original meaning. If you want to see how bad the differences are one only need look at the translation of almah, meaning maiden or young woman of child bearing age but which *can* also mean virgin, to parthenos. meaning virgin but which can also mean "maiden". It's the difference between "maid" and "maiden". |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 1:34:21 PM EDT
[#30]
“Brother, I mean not to harm you. But, you’re standing where I’m about to shoot.”
Good Kharma |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 1:38:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: .... If you want to see how bad the differences are one only need look at the translation of almah, meaning maiden or young woman of child bearing age but which *can* also mean virgin, to parthenos. meaning virgin but which can also mean "maiden". It's the difference between "maid" and "maiden". This remains a really horrible example of a translation problem. The Jews contemporary to Christ that referenced Isiah understood it to mean virgin, and that is more than clear from any source near that era, Christian or non-Christian. Even a secular interpretation would have the story of Christ's birth to "a virgin" be perhaps invented after the fact, as if to fit the widely-known prophecy for better propaganda effect. But it takes really sloppy reasoning to suggest that the understanding was anything different. It was Jewish scholars, centuries later, that started making the argument it did not mean virgin, as a possibly defensive reaction against the rise of Christianity. It isn't even as cut and dry as what word was even originally used in Isaiah, as it's quite possible the Greek versions used by Christians were truer to the original than the later Hebrew versions. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 1:44:48 PM EDT
[#32]
It doesn't say not to kill. It says not to murder. Important distinction. Killing in wartime or self defense is perfectly fine.
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Posted: 3/26/2022 2:01:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This remains a really horrible example of a translation problem. The Jews contemporary to Christ that referenced Isiah understood it to mean virgin, and that is more than clear from any source near that era, Christian or non-Christian. Even a secular interpretation would have the story of Christ's birth to "a virgin" be perhaps invented after the fact, as if to fit the widely-known prophecy for better propaganda effect. But it takes really sloppy reasoning to suggest that the understanding was anything different. It was Jewish scholars, centuries later, that started making the argument it did not mean virgin, as a possibly defensive reaction against the rise of Christianity. It isn't even as cut and dry as what word was even originally used in Isaiah, as it's quite possible the Greek versions used by Christians were truer to the original than the later Hebrew versions. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 2:07:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We've been lied to by the King of England. The commandment, as written in hebrew does not say thou shalt not kill. It says thou shalt not murder. Big difference between murder and kill. A Jewish school friend of mine explained that to me almost 50 years ago. Some christians are so hung up on the King James bible being "the only bible" they don't know it's not only not the first "bible" but as translations were made from the first bible through the centuries into other languages the words/intent of the bible were changed. Killing to protect yourself or you family, or your friends isn't the sin you think it is. Murdering someone to take something of theirs or for the fun/thrill of it is a sin. Can you get a link proving that so I can share it? |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 2:08:03 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd probably call them stupid and tell them to go read it again. You sure they aren't really just pacifists? I think they think that God is the only one who can take life and that you would be sinning to do so. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 2:10:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's an example that typifies the kinds of issues one can have when translating ancient works, not THE type example that explains every problem of translation. Look at the point of the example, not the example itself genius. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This remains a really horrible example of a translation problem. The Jews contemporary to Christ that referenced Isiah understood it to mean virgin, and that is more than clear from any source near that era, Christian or non-Christian. Even a secular interpretation would have the story of Christ's birth to "a virgin" be perhaps invented after the fact, as if to fit the widely-known prophecy for better propaganda effect. But it takes really sloppy reasoning to suggest that the understanding was anything different. It was Jewish scholars, centuries later, that started making the argument it did not mean virgin, as a possibly defensive reaction against the rise of Christianity. It isn't even as cut and dry as what word was even originally used in Isaiah, as it's quite possible the Greek versions used by Christians were truer to the original than the later Hebrew versions. The point is that to best understand an ancient word its best to understand how the people of that era understood it. The issue is rarely resolves by fixating in the word itself. There is, of course, zero evidence in the Bible, in Jewish theology, or historically to suggest anyone back then interpreted "though shall not kill" as a proscription against all killing, including in self defense. The same generations of people who wrote that book slaughtered animals for food and sacrifice, other humans in open warfare, each other in self-defense, etc., all with no indication the religious/legal authorities at the time viewed this as a violation. Quite to the contrary, in fact. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 2:28:53 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Self Defense has never been and never will be .murder. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 2:46:48 PM EDT
[#38]
My Spikes Crusader sums it up
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Posted: 3/26/2022 10:28:52 PM EDT
[#39]
Weakness is weak.
The application of just violence is inherently Christian. |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 10:18:15 AM EDT
[#40]
I've had this same issue in the past as well.
The head of the Bible department at my college owned rifles and shotguns, but not handguns. He said handguns were only for killing humans and quoted "Thou shall not kill". He was even a conscientious objector in the army. My grandfather always had concealed handguns, but the topic never came up till I turned 21 and started carrying. He asked me why and I told him for self protection. He fussed at me and quoted "Thou shall not kill ". Asked him why he carried and he said for wild dogs and snakes. I find it interesting that 2 people can take that same verse amd both believe that they cant kill in self defense, but have complete different views on handguns. |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 10:24:44 AM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 3/27/2022 10:24:54 AM EDT
[#42]
i am a god fearing Christ believer and have no problem using my skills, knowledge, and equipment to defend my life or my families
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Posted: 3/28/2022 8:39:51 PM EDT
[#43]
Killing isn't the goal. Stopping the threat is. Not to be smug about it but if he or she dies? Insert shrugging shoulders here.
I get the point that if a life is ended by you, you know that they are now entered into eternity. Tough choices have to be made. If the threat is against you. It doesn't affect just you. It also affects those you leave behind. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 8:49:21 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: How do you guys balance self defense while being a Christian? I have Christian friends and they say that you shouldn't kill someone to save your family because its murder. How would you guys respond? It's actually closer to thou shall not murder. Self Defense is Kosher
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Posted: 3/28/2022 9:03:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its not martyrdom that is the problem. Its that they say that killing someone who is harming your family is wrong because you are going against God's will. I know a married couple that basically bankrupted them selves give almost $500k to their deadbeat kid to help save them They cashed out their 401k, sold their home, and now they are subsistence living due to lack of income. Their excuse? The Bible says to give to your enemy... Crazy. These Christians are the same sort of folk who overwhelmingly vote democratic to save the poor and keep those evil guns in the safety of the government. It is self debasement and cognitive dissonance all wrapped in feelings. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 9:09:56 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: How do you guys balance self defense while being a Christian? I have Christian friends and they say that you shouldn't kill someone to save your family because its murder. How would you guys respond?  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/29/2022 10:54:40 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
How do you guys balance self defense while being a Christian? I have Christian friends and they say that you shouldn't kill someone to save your family because its murder. How would you guys respond? Murder is the willful taking of innocent life, whereas self-defense isn't taking innocent life. The commandment isn't really "thou shalt not kill" but "thou shalt not murder". The Hebrew is clear. Otherwise, God tells the Israelites not to kill, simply, and then commands them to kill in certain passages. Absurd. Legitimate defense
2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65 2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow: If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66 2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility. footnotes: 65 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,64,7, corp. art. 66 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,64,7, corp. art. Jesus was not, is not, and will never be a pacifist, and He doesn't command such absurdities of us either. |
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Posted: 3/29/2022 11:13:21 AM EDT
[#48]
Been covered pretty well so far...
I'm on our church's security team. We carry, qualify, have radios etc. There are even a couple rifles stashed. I don't carry a gun to kill, i carry it to stop real threats ASAP. If that means you bleed out then so be it. |
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Posted: 3/29/2022 11:16:48 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: How do you guys balance self defense while being a Christian? I have Christian friends and they say that you shouldn't kill someone to save your family because its murder. How would you guys respond? Your friends are idiots, God instructed the Israelites to kill, Jesus instructed his disciples to go armed. The whole “Thou shalt not kill.” mistranslation business is why I don’t hold the King James Bible to be sacrosanct. |
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Posted: 3/29/2022 2:03:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryAnd the Septuagint translates the original Hebrew as murder. |
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