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Posted: 11/11/2021 12:20:15 PM EDT
[#1]
I want a SPEAR so fucking bad.
It's the only one of the NGSW that actually looks like it was designed by someone who has fired a rifle before. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 12:21:03 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I want a SPEAR so fucking bad. It's the only one of the NGSW that actually looks like it was designed by someone who has fired a rifle before. FPNI |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 12:24:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Heard this a while ago.
I've also heard rumors that the SIG is horrifically inaccurate, and that their weight reduction claims are basically willful bullshit (they are comparing their new round to some .338 round not anything the rifle would actually replace). But then I've not seen any confirmation of those things. Hopefully the LSAT keeps going and keeps that ammo tech alive. The Textron LMG looked like it was basically the LSAT, but their rifle was wacky. The bullpup rifle and automatic rifle lok like shit but the True Velocity ammo is neat and should be applied to existing ammo if it ends up working as claimed. The SIG rifle and LMG look pretty darn good for their niche roles. None of them are remotely appropriate to replace the M16/M4. Replacing the M240 and/or M249 makes sense though. The SIG LMG (which is compatible with .308 with a barrel swap) is light enough to deserve a closer look on it's own alongside the LSAT, assuming it works well. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 12:33:02 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Heard this a while ago. I've also heard rumors that the SIG is horrifically inaccurate, and that their weight reduction claims are basically willful bullshit (they are comparing their new round to some .338 round not anything the rifle would actually replace). But then I've not seen any confirmation of those things. Hopefully the LSAT keeps going and keeps that ammo tech alive. The Textron LMG looked like it was basically the LSAT, but their rifle was wacky. The bullpup rifle and automatic rifle lok like shit but the True Velocity ammo is neat and should be applied to existing ammo if it ends up working as claimed. The SIG rifle and LMG look pretty darn good for their niche roles. None of them are remotely appropriate to replace the M16/M4. Replacing the M240 and/or M249 makes sense though. The SIG LMG (which is compatible with .308 with a barrel swap) is light enough to deserve a closer look on it's own alongside the LSAT, assuming it works well. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 12:40:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Not a gun company so not surprised
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Posted: 11/11/2021 12:40:30 PM EDT
[#6]
OP for this thread checks out
Joglee thread |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 12:43:02 PM EDT
[#7]
I find it hilarious that people really think the M4 is getting replaced.
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:00:20 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I find it hilarious that people really think the M4 is getting replaced. What's shitty is that instead of buying a 10 pounds SAW replacement the Army is doing something else, and in 20 years they might buy what was in front of them all along. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:04:14 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Joglee thread Sig SPEAR pics.    
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:04:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I find it hilarious that people really think the M4 is getting replaced. They aren't replacing the M4, at least not yet. The point is to meet near peer forces who are wearing lvl4 equivalent armor for small units, like SOF. Eventually this could expand to a larger portion of the military if its successful and the expected threat requires it. As both China and Russia are now greatly expanding the use of armor, its a given that something that can penetrate them is going to be sought. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:12:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's shitty is that instead of buying a 10 pounds SAW replacement the Army is doing something else, and in 20 years they might buy what was in front of them all along. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I find it hilarious that people really think the M4 is getting replaced. What's shitty is that instead of buying a 10 pounds SAW replacement the Army is doing something else, and in 20 years they might buy what was in front of them all along. Yup. KAC’s assault LMG should’ve been the answer to replacing the M249, possibly even the M4A1, in some units. Definitely would’ve been a better fit for the IAR role than the H&K 416. WTF is up with the LSAT, anyway? I remember seeing footage of the CT LMG Firing, reports said it was like a goddamn laser with the recoil of a 22. Nothing really beats the M4 in a carbine role, being light, accurate, inexpensive, and modular, but there’s more than a dozen MG’s that are objectively superior to the M249 in every way that matters. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:13:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They aren't replacing the M4, at least not yet. The point is to meet near peer forces who are wearing lvl4 equivalent armor for small units, like SOF. Eventually this could expand to a larger portion of the military if its successful and the expected threat requires it. As both China and Russia are now greatly expanding the use of armor, its a given that something that can penetrate them is going to be sought. oh, so this is the wünder-rifle that's supposed to fire big heavy bullets at velocity sufficient to penetrate lvl 4 armor at 600m. Without wearing out the barrel in 600 rounds. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:44:27 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The inaccurate one, I believe, is the Textron. They were having problems with the telescoping ammo and the jump to the lands. Just rumor mill that I read somewhere on the internets-supposedly a guy from the Army shooting team or something. The SPEAR's origination was in the CSASS, so I wouldn't think it would have accuracy problems. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Heard this a while ago. I've also heard rumors that the SIG is horrifically inaccurate, and that their weight reduction claims are basically willful bullshit (they are comparing their new round to some .338 round not anything the rifle would actually replace). But then I've not seen any confirmation of those things. Hopefully the LSAT keeps going and keeps that ammo tech alive. The Textron LMG looked like it was basically the LSAT, but their rifle was wacky. The bullpup rifle and automatic rifle lok like shit but the True Velocity ammo is neat and should be applied to existing ammo if it ends up working as claimed. The SIG rifle and LMG look pretty darn good for their niche roles. None of them are remotely appropriate to replace the M16/M4. Replacing the M240 and/or M249 makes sense though. The SIG LMG (which is compatible with .308 with a barrel swap) is light enough to deserve a closer look on it's own alongside the LSAT, assuming it works well. The chick involved with the sig MG basically said it was an 8 MOA in a TFB interview, seems a little inaccurate but I've never been around MGs. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:45:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: So rumor has it Textron has dropped out of the NGSW trials, leaving Sig and True Velocity the final two competing to replace 5.56, the M4, and M249. Sig is supposedly in the lead with their MCX-SPEAR. Also can’t wait for Colt to try to weasel in to that government tit again. “Hey by the way we had nothing to do with this but we’re the traditional manufacturer and will fail as a business without a USG welfare account, so we need to make the gun.” |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:46:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: oh, so this is the wünder-rifle that's supposed to fire big heavy bullets at velocity sufficient to penetrate lvl 4 armor at 600m. Without wearing out the barrel in 600 rounds. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They aren't replacing the M4, at least not yet. The point is to meet near peer forces who are wearing lvl4 equivalent armor for small units, like SOF. Eventually this could expand to a larger portion of the military if its successful and the expected threat requires it. As both China and Russia are now greatly expanding the use of armor, its a given that something that can penetrate them is going to be sought. oh, so this is the wünder-rifle that's supposed to fire big heavy bullets at velocity sufficient to penetrate lvl 4 armor at 600m. Without wearing out the barrel in 600 rounds. The Textron actually seemed like it could be good with the longevity as the chamber is not attached to the barrel, and the polymer case acts as an insulator. But the radical cartridge and action design were unlikely to be chosen anyways. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:49:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The chick involved with the sig MG basically said it was an 8 MOA in a TFB interview, seems a little inaccurate but I've never been around MGs. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:52:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The chick involved with the sig MG basically said it was an 8 MOA in a TFB interview, seems a little inaccurate but I've never been around MGs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Heard this a while ago. I've also heard rumors that the SIG is horrifically inaccurate, and that their weight reduction claims are basically willful bullshit (they are comparing their new round to some .338 round not anything the rifle would actually replace). But then I've not seen any confirmation of those things. Hopefully the LSAT keeps going and keeps that ammo tech alive. The Textron LMG looked like it was basically the LSAT, but their rifle was wacky. The bullpup rifle and automatic rifle lok like shit but the True Velocity ammo is neat and should be applied to existing ammo if it ends up working as claimed. The SIG rifle and LMG look pretty darn good for their niche roles. None of them are remotely appropriate to replace the M16/M4. Replacing the M240 and/or M249 makes sense though. The SIG LMG (which is compatible with .308 with a barrel swap) is light enough to deserve a closer look on it's own alongside the LSAT, assuming it works well. The chick involved with the sig MG basically said it was an 8 MOA in a TFB interview, seems a little inaccurate but I've never been around MGs. Their MG's use reciprocating barrels, so they sacrifice accuracy to lower recoil. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:53:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sig makes great guns Lmao |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 1:55:08 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sig makes great guns Lmao 
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Posted: 11/11/2021 2:00:06 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got a link? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The chick involved with the sig MG basically said it was an 8 MOA in a TFB interview, seems a little inaccurate but I've never been around MGs. At around 17:40 https://youtu.be/LO0D9PD0Yns?t=1061 |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 2:00:58 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Their MG's use reciprocating barrels, so they sacrifice accuracy to lower recoil. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Heard this a while ago. I've also heard rumors that the SIG is horrifically inaccurate, and that their weight reduction claims are basically willful bullshit (they are comparing their new round to some .338 round not anything the rifle would actually replace). But then I've not seen any confirmation of those things. Hopefully the LSAT keeps going and keeps that ammo tech alive. The Textron LMG looked like it was basically the LSAT, but their rifle was wacky. The bullpup rifle and automatic rifle lok like shit but the True Velocity ammo is neat and should be applied to existing ammo if it ends up working as claimed. The SIG rifle and LMG look pretty darn good for their niche roles. None of them are remotely appropriate to replace the M16/M4. Replacing the M240 and/or M249 makes sense though. The SIG LMG (which is compatible with .308 with a barrel swap) is light enough to deserve a closer look on it's own alongside the LSAT, assuming it works well. The chick involved with the sig MG basically said it was an 8 MOA in a TFB interview, seems a little inaccurate but I've never been around MGs. Their MG's use reciprocating barrels, so they sacrifice accuracy to lower recoil. Ah. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 2:22:31 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sig SPEAR pics. https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/img_4594-scaled.jpg https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/757A8EC6-AB67-4AE8-9F1A-1E8A16DA8838.jpeg https://popularairsoft.com/sites/default/files/2021-02/tfb_sig_mcx_spear_ngsw.jpg https://laststandonzombieisland.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/sigs-mcx-spear-series-carbine-aims-to-be-the-armys-ngsw-rifle.jpg?w=640 I wonder how much is outsourced to India. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 2:26:25 PM EDT
[#23]
Where do they put what amounts to a buffer and spring on a folding stock AR-style gun? Is it shoehorned into the upper above the bolt?
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Posted: 11/11/2021 2:35:37 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where do they put what amounts to a buffer and spring on a folding stock AR-style gun? Is it shoehorned into the upper above the bolt? Its basically a beefed up MCX. 
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Posted: 11/11/2021 3:21:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The chick involved with the sig MG basically said it was an 8 MOA in a TFB interview, seems a little inaccurate but I've never been around MGs. At around 17:40 https://youtu.be/LO0D9PD0Yns?t=1061 |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 3:36:18 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I find it hilarious that people really think the M4 is getting replaced. Aside from the usual graft, there is actually an interest in some quarters for increasing performance against hard body armor. Most of it on the decision-making end has to do with defeating our armor. I have more faith that these won't be plagued as much by traditional (recent) SIG-isms, and that anything that do pop up can be fixed with .mil money. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 3:39:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I want a SPEAR so fucking bad. It's the only one of the NGSW that actually looks like it was designed by someone who has fired a rifle before. Meh, the MCX Spear is just a scaled up MCX Virtus. It's using the same firearms technology we've been using for decades now. We're ready for the next big leap in firearms tech, and the Spear isn't it. It's also heavy as shit. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 3:41:39 PM EDT
[#28]
When she said 8moa, seemed to get real awkward.
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Posted: 11/11/2021 3:45:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh, the MCX Spear is just a scaled up MCX Virtus. It's using the same firearms technology we've been using for decades now. We're ready for the next big leap in firearms tech, and the Spear isn't it. It's also heavy as shit. I fucking love my MCX. Yeah, it's heavier than my ultra-lightweight ARs. Still don't care. I've trained with it and taken classes with it and attended the MCX armorer's course. The MCX has become the most relevant non-AR rifle around, unless you're in a Godforsaken communist country. We're obviously not ready for the next big leap in firearms tech because it hasn't been shown yet to be any kind of improvement. The 3-part case doesn't interest me in a new caliber, but I really want to know what it can do in existing calibers like .300blk. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 3:45:12 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I want a SPEAR so fucking bad. It's the only one of the NGSW that actually looks like it was designed by someone who has fired a rifle before. Totally agree. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 3:53:30 PM EDT
[#31]
There is a good chance of the NGSW program becoming another SPIW or ACR, ie an expensive S&T project.
SOCOM is already exploring other options (6.5CM) to achieve the desired effects and ballistics. If you read the open source briefs, you can see where they are headed and what they believe will succeed (ie not 6.8). There are also several other vendors working on projects using more conventional ammunition designs and/or cartridges that have the DODs eye right now. That combined with some interesting developments in legacy ammunition capabilities creates a situation in which we may see no procurement off of NGSW. Id imagine this is what those working on SPIW in the 60s felt like when 601/XM16 was adopted as the "interim solution". |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 3:55:58 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WTF is up with the LSAT, anyway? I remember seeing footage of the CT LMG Firing, reports said it was like a goddamn laser with the recoil of a 22. Nothing really beats the M4 in a carbine role, being light, accurate, inexpensive, and modular, but there’s more than a dozen MG’s that are objectively superior to the M249 in every way that matters. The old laser accurate LSAT was a 6.5, right? I wonder if this new magic armor penetrating 6.8 projectile has an ogive that just isn't compatible with a CT round. I don't know about the M4 being the end-all carbine, but I do think 224cal is just about ideal. IMO, they should have come up with something that has the shape and external ballisitics of the 75gr amax/eldm, but with an AP core, and then designed a cartridge around that. With more pressure from the sig ammo design, or more volume with CT, you could probably get an M4 sized gun shooting accurately to 1km while retaining the advantages of light compact ammunition.. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 3:59:38 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The old laser accurate LSAT was a 6.5, right? I wonder if this new magic armor penetrating 6.8 projectile has an ogive that just isn't compatible with a CT round. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: WTF is up with the LSAT, anyway? I remember seeing footage of the CT LMG Firing, reports said it was like a goddamn laser with the recoil of a 22. Nothing really beats the M4 in a carbine role, being light, accurate, inexpensive, and modular, but there’s more than a dozen MG’s that are objectively superior to the M249 in every way that matters. The old laser accurate LSAT was a 6.5, right? I wonder if this new magic armor penetrating 6.8 projectile has an ogive that just isn't compatible with a CT round. No it was 5.56 and designed to duplicate 5.56 NATO ballistics. If you watch the old LSAT videos it was both accurate and low recoil. The cased telescoped ammo and that LSAT belt fed tilting chamber are the only really cool and new things I have seen recently and it sounds like they are done. 
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Posted: 11/11/2021 4:07:07 PM EDT
[#35]
I posted an ngsw thread today. $84M purchase involving Lonestar
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/TrueVelocity-buys-Lonestar-Future-Weapons-for-84M-ngsw/5-2503734/ |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 4:11:54 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sig SPEAR pics. https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/img_4594-scaled.jpg https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/757A8EC6-AB67-4AE8-9F1A-1E8A16DA8838.jpeg https://popularairsoft.com/sites/default/files/2021-02/tfb_sig_mcx_spear_ngsw.jpg https://laststandonzombieisland.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/sigs-mcx-spear-series-carbine-aims-to-be-the-armys-ngsw-rifle.jpg?w=640 That's the coolest looking of the NSFW or whatever rifles I've seen. But my gosh, why are they copying the FN-Scar color scheme of making nothing match?? Is that receiver tinted pink?? Just make a black or FDE rifle and let the soldier rattle can-mo it. Don't color it retarded from the start. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 4:14:07 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. Never saw that video. I'm guessing it meets the standard if she's talking about it that openly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The chick involved with the sig MG basically said it was an 8 MOA in a TFB interview, seems a little inaccurate but I've never been around MGs. At around 17:40 https://youtu.be/LO0D9PD0Yns?t=1061 Guess it does as she said, "we don't just want to hit the requirement", just surprised really. lol |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 4:14:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Not Gonna See Warfare
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Posted: 11/11/2021 4:16:14 PM EDT
[#39]
I knew from the get go that the Sig was the only one with a chance at success. They'll drop the 6.8 and rebarrel them in 308 is my next prediction.
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Posted: 11/11/2021 4:20:09 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Curious if you have hands-on experience, because I want one badly. I fucking love my MCX. Yeah, it's heavier than my ultra-lightweight ARs. Still don't care. I've trained with it and taken classes with it and attended the MCX armorer's course. The MCX has become the most relevant non-AR rifle around, unless you're in a Godforsaken communist country. We're obviously not ready for the next big leap in firearms tech because it hasn't been shown yet to be any kind of improvement. The 3-part case doesn't interest me in a new caliber, but I really want to know what it can do in existing calibers like .300blk. Polymer casings have already shown a good deal of improvement in heat transfer. Both the Textron and General Dynamics entry are using plastic cased cartridges. Sig went ultra lame and just added some steel to the bottom of a brass case. The Sig entry is by far the most boring of all of them. That probably makes it the most likely to win, but it's still boring AF. Textron had the most out of the box gun, and General Dynamics is half way between the two of them. I personally hope GD wins. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 4:27:14 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Polymer casings have already shown a good deal of improvement in heat transfer. Both the Textron and General Dynamics entry are using plastic cased cartridges. Sig went ultra lame and just added some steel to the bottom of a brass case. The Sig entry is by far the most boring of all of them. That probably makes it the most likely to win, but it's still boring AF. Textron had the most out of the box gun, and General Dynamics is half way between the two of them. I personally hope GD wins. The 3-part case is boring if 80k psi is boring. Boring if making the 6.5 Jesusmoor it's bitch. I'm not excited about the cartridge at all, but a lot of it (6.8 diameter) was set by the Army, IIRC. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 5:01:49 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its basically a beefed up MCX. https://v7b7b3s9.ssl.hwcdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/3-SIG-Rattler-BoltC-1024x682.jpg Slick. Thanks for posting it. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 5:48:09 PM EDT
[#43]
Unless they paint it rainbow themed and name it after the first transgender somebody, the Biden-era military won't be spending anything on it. I'm surprised the program hasn't been killed yet.
Sig will turn around and sell them on the commercial market, but they'll ship like 4 a year and price them like a 2022 model year truck in 2021. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 5:53:03 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sig SPEAR pics. https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/img_4594-scaled.jpg https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/757A8EC6-AB67-4AE8-9F1A-1E8A16DA8838.jpeg https://popularairsoft.com/sites/default/files/2021-02/tfb_sig_mcx_spear_ngsw.jpg https://laststandonzombieisland.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/sigs-mcx-spear-series-carbine-aims-to-be-the-armys-ngsw-rifle.jpg?w=640 The smallest stock on the biggest rifle. Wtf. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 5:55:51 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I find it hilarious that people really think the M4 is getting replaced. There will be another combat uniform change before the M4 gets replaced. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 5:57:46 PM EDT
[#46]
Another waste. We need to constantly keep innovating, but right now, pulling the trigger and making lead spit out at high velocity is about the extent of it no matter how you slice it.
IMO, gun companies should be doing this on their own and then coming to the military and saying "look what we can do now!" |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 6:06:20 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I want a SPEAR so fucking bad. It's the only one of the NGSW that actually looks like it was designed by someone who has fired a rifle before. This. Every other gun I sort of roll my eyes at. They seem like they were designed by some 9 year old that only plays call of duty. Spear seems awesome. Lots of small tweaks to make it 'right' too. Stuff like the left side charging handle staying in the locked position so it doesn't snag on gear and pull the bolt OOB. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 6:06:25 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When she said 8moa, seemed to get real awkward. Not a fan of a 8moa MG, I should be able to drill a holes in things with the gun on a tripod with a T&E hooked up. |
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Posted: 11/11/2021 6:11:18 PM EDT
[#49]
Used to give a fuck but honestly these are just the weapons we’ll be leaving the enemy after we lose the next war.
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Posted: 11/11/2021 6:23:20 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lmao Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sig makes great guns Lmao Ahhh... the same old SIG troll. |
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