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Posted: 3/25/2022 5:27:35 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 3/25/2022 5:29:08 PM EDT
[#2]
Jesus!
Looked like a mast bump and severed the tail. My son flies R44's; I don't have anything bad to say about Robinson's (other than their inventor is a prick), but that crash gives me the willies. |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 5:51:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryThe news says this Heli belonged to Sky Helicopters in Texas. Some Internet searching seems to show that they operate R22s and R44s. This was probably one of their R44s - their R22s are other colors. |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 5:51:47 PM EDT
[#4]
Robinson Fallicopter.
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Posted: 3/25/2022 5:52:33 PM EDT
[#5]
Everybody is going to go directly to mast bump/low-g blah, blah, blah, but there is no way to tell at this point if that was the case or if it was a case of structural or mechanical failure at this point.
There was an accident in Australia where a tail departed a Robinson for unknown reasons. Caught on CCTV according to the written reporting. Still no final report on that accident. |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 5:52:37 PM EDT
[#6]
another video.. RIP
 Helicopter crash in Rowlett captured on cellphone video |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 5:56:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looked like a mast bump and severed the tail. I see an aircraft falling in pieces, didn’t see what caused it. Is there any evidence pointing to a cause? Twitter video is better: shows chopper falling with main rotor intact and under power, appears the tail gearbox and vertical fin came off. You can see the main rotor hit the tailboom as it is falling. So Main rotor didn’t cause the tail rotor/vertical to fall off. Could easily be maintenance issue - likely only a couple small bolts holding the tail gearbox and vertical fin on. ETA: https://mobile.twitter.com/dtxdaily/status/1507409389417762816 |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 6:17:25 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see an aircraft falling in pieces, didn’t see what caused it. Is there any evidence pointing to a cause? Twitter video is better: shows chopper falling with main rotor intact and under power, appears the tail gearbox and vertical fin came off. You can see the main rotor hit the tailboom as it is falling. So Main rotor didn’t cause the tail rotor/vertical to fall off. Could easily be maintenance issue - likely only a couple small bolts holding the tail gearbox and vertical fin on. ETA: https://mobile.twitter.com/dtxdaily/status/1507409389417762816 Yeah- it could be any fucking thing. We also don't see the whole crash sequence, just the catastrophic parts, so we don't know if negative G was induced. I based my comment on the supposition of my son who has 1000 hours in fucking R44's- which is ALSO why I said that crash gives me the willies. |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 6:38:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah- it could be any fucking thing. I based my comment on the supposition of my son…. Lol. You could just avoid flat out guessing then. This isn’t GD. So what we know from the video: vertical (and probably tail rotor) came off in flight for unknown reason. Engine was running as aircraft was tumbling out of control and main rotor hit tailboom in the way down. Google images shows the vertical and TR gearbox mount to a fitting at the end of the tailboom on r44 like many small helicopters, so a single failure could easily lead to the loss of both parts. Unsure of how heavy the Robinson parts are, but tail gearboxes falling off often cause so much CG shift the pitch becomes uncontrollable. The loss of one is survivable, but losing both means you have no yaw control and is a bad day. I have seen both an Apache and Blackhawk lose a tail gearbox (lose as in fall off) and both were able to be flown to a safe landing, but they are articulated rotors and have a much wider CG range. |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 7:03:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Prayers for his family.
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Posted: 3/25/2022 8:21:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol. You could just avoid flat out guessing then. This isn’t GD. So what we know from the video: vertical (and probably tail rotor) came off in flight for unknown reason. Engine was running as aircraft was tumbling out of control and main rotor hit tailboom in the way down. Google images shows the vertical and TR gearbox mount to a fitting at the end of the tailboom on r44 like many small helicopters, so a single failure could easily lead to the loss of both parts. Unsure of how heavy the Robinson parts are, but tail gearboxes falling off often cause so much CG shift the pitch becomes uncontrollable. The loss of one is survivable, but losing both means you have no yaw control and is a bad day. I have seen both an Apache and Blackhawk lose a tail gearbox (lose as in fall off) and both were able to be flown to a safe landing, but they are articulated rotors and have a much wider CG range. Oh piss off. Everyone guesses at tragedies like this. You yourself are guessing. I made my "guess" after speaking about a horrific crash of an R44 with my son, an accomplished R44 pilot. He said it looked like a tailboom strike from the video we watched. I didn't go out and look for any others- excuse the fuck outta me. An Apache or Blackhawk is as similar to an R44 as a C152 is to a 747- other than the fact they're helicopters (and airplanes), that's where the similarities end. |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 10:00:44 PM EDT
[#12]
I own an R44 and I don't know jack about what happened, other than it is a relatively short list of what it might be. Your son doesn't know jack either, other than the possible causes are from a very short list.
Here's the short list: Negative G that caused a tail boom strike (mast bumping doesn't come into it, even if there was mast bumping it wasn't severe enough to cause separation of the main rotor head, that much is clear in the videos available) Radical cyclic maneuvers that caused a tail boom strike Low rotor RPM that caused a tail boom strike (operator error and/or mechanical failure induced) Mechanical/structural failure (which in turn could a very long list of failure modes) We'll know in a year or so when the NTSB final report comes out, unless some more video appears that shows the initial event that caused the departure of the empennage, tail rotor and tail rotor gearbox from the aircraft. |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 10:01:16 PM EDT
[#13]
That was a brutally long time to be dying.
RIP |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 11:47:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Negative G that caused a tail boom strike….. Radical cyclic maneuvers that caused a tail boom strike Low rotor RPM that caused a tail boom strike…. Mechanical/structural failure (which in turn could a very long list of failure modes) In the twitter video you can clearly see and hear the rotor hit the tailboom after the vertical fin has obviously been separated for some time. Your last guess I think is the most likely. In the GD thread somebody said the aircraft was returning home from having maintenance done. |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 11:49:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I own an R44 and I don't know jack about what happened, other than it is a relatively short list of what it might be. Your son doesn't know jack either, other than the possible causes are from a very short list. Here's the short list: Negative G that caused a tail boom strike (mast bumping doesn't come into it, even if there was mast bumping it wasn't severe enough to cause separation of the main rotor head, that much is clear in the videos available) Radical cyclic maneuvers that caused a tail boom strike Low rotor RPM that caused a tail boom strike (operator error and/or mechanical failure induced) Mechanical/structural failure (which in turn could a very long list of failure modes) We'll know in a year or so when the NTSB final report comes out, unless some more video appears that shows the initial event that caused the departure of the empennage, tail rotor and tail rotor gearbox from the aircraft. That's funny- my son said a lot of the same things. I paraphrased it- not him, so your comment about him not knowing jack is off base. I'm done with this- you part-time NTSB investigators have from here on out. It should be solved by next week with your inputs. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 7:40:52 AM EDT
[#16]
The "jack" part is knowing the true root cause, which nobody can know at this time. You say your son offered up all the potential causes but you only parroted one. We can only read what you write, not what's in your head. Words are important.
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Posted: 3/26/2022 7:47:51 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Your last guess I think is the most likely. In the GD thread somebody said the aircraft was returning home from having maintenance done.  |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 8:25:12 AM EDT
[#18]
The average helicopter has 100 Jesus Nuts, one of them failed here.
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:14:17 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I own an R44 and I don't know jack about what happened, other than it is a relatively short list of what it might be. Your son doesn't know jack either, other than the possible causes are from a very short list. Here's the short list: Negative G that caused a tail boom strike (mast bumping doesn't come into it, even if there was mast bumping it wasn't severe enough to cause separation of the main rotor head, that much is clear in the videos available) Radical cyclic maneuvers that caused a tail boom strike Low rotor RPM that caused a tail boom strike (operator error and/or mechanical failure induced) Mechanical/structural failure (which in turn could a very long list of failure modes) We'll know in a year or so when the NTSB final report comes out, unless some more video appears that shows the initial event that caused the departure of the empennage, tail rotor and tail rotor gearbox from the aircraft. Do these helicopters not have droop stops (or something similar) to prevent tail strikes by the main rotor? |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 9:39:17 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do these helicopters not have droop stops (or something similar) to prevent tail strikes by the main rotor? Not sure about such tiny teetering rotor systems, but all larger teetering rotors do have droop stops that centrifugally retract to allow full flapping while the rotor is spinning. There still has to be a stop though, but it is never intended to be hit while the rotor is spinning. On a teetering rotor there is nothing that can be designed to completely preclude mast bumping. The problem with teetering rotors is that the flapping hinge is on the mast centerline, so there is no centrifugal force to create a moment opposing flapping. This is also why teetering rotors have a lower CG range and more limited control authority than articulated rotors. Their only benefit is simplicity and thus lower cost and less maintenance required. In the 80s there were multiple lawsuits by families of military pilots killed in Huey/cobra crashes claiming that mast bumping was a negligent design flaw. There were a couple cobra crashes at usntps - in one of them one pilot was able to bail out and survived. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 12:57:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Droop stops are only for normal start up and shutdown.
All 2 bladed rotor heads are teetering rotorheads, are at risk for mast bumping, and must not be taken into a low G regime. Here's a good article to read: https://www.morningtonsanfordaviation.com/pdfs/It |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 6:26:07 PM EDT
[#22]
Yea F that. That was a brutally long time to know you are dead.
Reminds me of the National 747 crash in AFG. Just along for the death ride. I loved my time flying 67s, 58D, and 47s in the Army. However, flying jets is just a more tranquil and less stressful life. |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 11:02:54 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everybody is going to go directly to mast bump/low-g blah, blah, blah, but there is no way to tell at this point if that was the case or if it was a case of structural or mechanical failure at this point. There was an accident in Australia where a tail departed a Robinson for unknown reasons. Caught on CCTV according to the written reporting. Still no final report on that accident. Looks like a stall to me! |
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Posted: 4/6/2022 1:20:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like a stall to me! Theories from that point forward: somehow a botched VRS demonstration, or potentially a botched entry into a zero speed auto (real or practice). Either might have lead to critically low main rotor RPM and aft cyclic under those conditions could cause the main rotor to contact the tailboom. |
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Posted: 4/11/2022 10:08:18 AM EDT
[#25]
Riding on an R44 in Brazil might be one of the dumber things I’ve ever done
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