So I’m seriously considering a protection dog for our family. I’m out of town for work 2 days a week. We are moving to a new location that has a lot more room and is very private. We have only had room for a mini Aussie up until this point. I’m considering a nice breed Czech German shepherd puppy and after he is almost a year old, send him for protection training.

I have 4 girls ranging from 12, 9, 4, 3. My worst fear is he would turn and bite(or worse) one of the children. His job would be to protect them while I’m away.

I have read that a well breed, well trained dog should never be aggressive toward his “pack”.

I was hoping to get some thought from experiment ppl on this.

Thx

Anatolian Shepherd is what you seek.

I'd be very careful about having a dog trained to bite humans around young kids.  Just my concern as a cautious parent, no scientific data.  Dogs can be very loyal and protective towards pack members, but they also squabble with pack members.  Full-blown K-9 trainers will likely have another opinion.  If you choose to have the dog trained, I'd advise that your stay-at-home partner be heavily involved in controlling the dog.

You want a watch dog, not a protection dog.

If the dog can be proven in court that it has had protection training, you will be just as liable as a trained martial artist in a fight.  

Most watch dogs will step up to the plate if the need arises.  

Expecting a child to have full control of a protection dog is not feasible.

Here is our protection dog. He is male as we were informed females are even more protective and have a tendency to bite more frequently. Love him to death. Does his job well. Is fantastic around the grandchildren. However he "plays" very rough...very rough...instinct kicks in..prey instinct kicks in...he would knock a child over in a heart beat and send them flying when he is in "play" mode. I agree is that you want a watch dog not a protection dog. Attached File

Attached File

We have at least onemember who raises/trains working dogs that posts in GD often, start a thread there.
I can't recall his name.
Make sure the wife buys into training with him too.
A plus if the kids pitch in training him through basic obedience.

No matter what breed you get. There should be training involved.  Probably you and the wife since your gone 2 days. Working dogs need an alpha presence. They also need room to run and expend energy.

Have you every owned a working dog? I assume by protection you mean working based off the choices you listed.

The two in my avatar I trust around my 3 year old. It's all in how you raise the puppy and establish the alpha and pecking order.

It takes work on your part. It's worth it though.

German Shepherds are the best look no further.

F that. Get a mastiff. Way easier. Great with kids. The OG estate dog.

no ones walking on the same side of the street with you when you have a 250lb dog that's 36" at the shoulder.

My Blue Heeler is more likely to bite someone than my 2 Anatolians. Giant hairy living rugs. Wouldn't trade them for anything. Lol

GSD is great with our grand child. Would you think
twice with a 70 pound GSD turned up to 10...
I would

My GSD is about 80 lbs, but his coat makes him look bigger.  He's also got a pretty intense stare, and doesn't like people coming up to me.  I've never done bite work or protection training with him.  He's a herding trained dog, and he's very alert to what's going on around him.  I've found that his appearance alone is enough to make people give us space.  I had a guy ring the doorbell the other day, and when the guy saw him at the window barking he backed up about ten feet from the door.  I've also had homeless people approach my vehicle when he's with me, and when they see him they always back away.  There's a lot to be said just for presence of a dog.  Like a few posters have pointed out, some large dog breeds do have a nice...deterrent effect...just by being there.  

You may find some good information in this article: https://leerburg.com/personalprotectiondog.htm Personally, I agree with the guys stance.

the docile looking golden tossed two attacking Rottweilers to the ground and dominated them in their own home when they encroached on our daughter's space. she was a water moccasin and rattlesnake killing machine, and no person dare get near her family

I worked at a dog training kennel for working dogs and worked with most levels of dogs, spent a lot of time in a bite suit too. Something I learned was that the hardest dogs are rare among working dogs, they’re the type that make the one handler only type of military k9.
I bought a gsd from the kennel that year named Thor who’s father was that caliber dog, and it was anticipated Thor would be that caliber dog as well once he started training and bonded with someone and that someone was me and they were right about him.
He was a handful because he was a liability. You were either in his pack, myself, parents and twin sister and our cats and dogs, or you were the enemy and deserving of death. He was actually good with any other cats or dogs too. But people, just his pack.
He was loyal and friendly towards us, though granted we didn’t have children in our family, I once saw a kitten get in front of his face to eat his food from his bowl and he just looked at me like “make him move”.
He was incredibly trustworthy with his pack.  
Worth mentioning that his high caliber type of breeding seemed to make for a really stable temperament too, confident and intelligent, and I personally don’t think every dog or breed is equally intelligent, though they’re all worthy of love.

When my kids were young, I always had a great Pyrenees or two.  A legit livestock guardian dog like a pyr, Kuvasz, etc. will be entire tier above a trained working breed.  Their only purpose is to watch their kids.  They don't chase balls, they don't listen to most commands, they don't need you around to work.  They require real fences, the collars won't work in most cases.  But if you want a real guardian and not a pet, look into the livestock guardian breeds.

Great Pyrenees may be what you seek.  They are a patrolling protection bread, and they will protect furiously.
The are big enough to be intimidating.
They have an imposing bark...that they like to use.
They are especially gentle and tolerant with the young.

Once they bond with the flock they will protect, nothing is getting through the dog as long as it is alive. The cats will get the same level of protection of the kids...even if they really do not like the cat.

They are a cruise control protector. They operator autonomously.  Even well trained, they consider suggestions, not take commands.  This makes them great if the flock is too panicked, or too young, to be able to command a highly trained dog like a Shepard.  It also means they are not a dog you take to the company picnic to play ball with the kids.

The tend to be slugs, especially in warmer weather.  Happy to sleep at your feet or on the couch all day long. They do not require a lot of daily exercise

Be warry that they are very empathetic...if one of the kids is scared by the UPS truck, they will pick that up and go onto protection mode.  Remember that autonomous part...

List is from guy who did dog IQ rank
Attached File


My Bullmastiff is great around kids.
He is not protection trained, but most people wouldn't want to piss off a 144# dog. (Deterrent)
Attached File

You want more attention towards training the kids on how to be around an animal  vs training the dog. Dogs come with some natural instincts  and while most will give a huge leave-away for the kids  - you still don't want to press it. I knew a stupid kid that decided to stick a twig in a dobermans ass. Got his face bit. AS he should have.  
Dogs are pack animals. Make sure that from the beginning he/she realizes  there is no need to compete with the kids for the position in the pack, that they are above him. Usually not a problem when getting a puppy but take into account that some breeds, esp primitive mastiff or flock guardians develop very slowly -some will have that teenage period when they want to challenge for pack placement around 18 months or older.  
GS are super trainable but don't have the pack protection instinct as strong as some other dogs do. Presas or Fila brasielos  will protect without training but hard to train commands wise-too damn smart. the smarter the dog -the less he is interested in your input.

Yup. Or a boer beol.

Natural protectors and fearless.

<---

Bought a Dogo de Argentino for the same reasons in the op Attached File
Attached File

If someone is training a dog to bite people, they have the wrong dog. Not only are you trying to get a dog to go against his inborn nature, you will end up with an unreliable protection dog.

Good (Protection) dogs are not trained to bite humans. It's genetic, natural. They are born with the drive to fight humans. You train these dogs NOT to bite people, or in other words you put them under the control and supervision of a handler so they only bite under circumstances the handler approves of. If you don't train them when NOT to bite, they will bite whenever their doggie brain decides its OK. Odds are high there will come a time when that doggie brain is wrong. You must maintain control of these dogs. Adding more to the genetic mix is a dogs biddability. Not every dog with the genetics for fighting a human is suitable for protection work. This is a large part of why you see certain breeds doing police and personal protection work and not others. A dog has to possess the drive to fight people AND the biddability to be controlled.

Many (most?) people vastly overestimate domestic dogs. The reality is that there aren't very many dogs capable of being reliable protection animals. A lot of folks also think a dogs willingness to fight with another animal will cross over to fighting a human. It doesn't work that way. In fact, there are lots of breeds with high levels of animal aggression that are absolute failures at any sort of bitework involving humans. Conversely, there are lots of dogs proven to be manfighters who have little or no aggression toward other animals.

Lots and lots of dogs from many breeds can serve as alert/watch dogs and/or look scary. Some may even bite humans, but unless you have selected a dog who is genetically suited for protection work it's almost guaranteed the dog will back down rather than actually fight with a human. In all honesty this is all most folks need and can handle. A dog capable of fighting humans requires a ton of responsibility and maintenance.

The thing that is really concerning is when folks believe a dog is capable of unreasonable feats. You are putting your family at risk when you think a dog who lacks the genetics is going to magically change into a manfighter. A good alert dog that has an intimating appearance is a great layer of an overall security system. Just don't go believing the dog is something it's not.

Realized that I didn't respond to this concern/question of yours.

A dogs relationship with other pack members is highly individual. You can't expect the exact response from two different dogs, even littermates. Even within a well bred litter where pups are fairly consistent, there will still be a more socially dominant pup, varying levels of prey, etc, etc.

Dogs with manfighting genetics will naturally possess some of social aggression towards humans (Dominance or whatever term you want to call it) along with a genetic Drive that allows them to see people as "prey".  When a dog has the option of backing off or fleeing, he isn't going to fight an adult male human unless the dog believes has a higher social status than that human or he's engaging the human as a prey object.

BOTH the social aggression AND prey drive are potential issues within the pack. Until a dog is fully mature and socialized with a pack you can't predict with any certainty how the dynamics will play out. For example, a dog might give "puppy privilege" to children OR under certain circumstances he might discipline them as lower pack members. Even when a dog is going easy on a kid, teeth can scar up a child very easily. Kids can also trigger a dogs prey drive. Just like with social discipline, an excited dog prey driven dog can rough up a kid even when he's being "gentle".

If you have a very biddable dog, it's possible to teach the animal he's not allowed to discipline the kids or join in games of chase, etc. A potential issue is that by the time you identify the issue in an individual dog, you may already have a scratched up kid.

Some people are OK with minor scuffs and punctures during the learning process and other people absolutely freak out when a dog causes any harm to a child. IMO- if you are the freak out type, do NOT bring a Socially Dominant or high Prey Drive dog into a home with children.

The doxie will bark and attack anybody that goes near my wife and kids if they do not meet him. He will also protect any baby or kid that is in the house. May not tolerate them but he will protect.

The village mutt is learning to protect from the doxie.
As a smaller pup he would get between the wife,kids and strangers.
His hackle would raise like a moose.


Both will bark at the slightest noise.
When they sleep with my daughters they put themselves between the door and my daughters.

I'm not a professional dog trainer.  My opinion is based upon having working GSD and spending 100s of man hours with professional trainers.

- First, thank you adhahn  for your superb posts above.  Genetics and training are the key to success.

- Most people aren't willing to spend the time or money it takes to develop a good protection dog.  To maximize your chance of success you will spend 1000s of dollars on the puppy, and then 1000s more on training.  You need to establish a long term relationship with a professional trainer.

- I would never send a dog away for training, especially for protection. You or your spouse needs to be actively engaged in the training at all times.

- Any dog can mistakenly bite an innocent person, however, IMHO a stable well trained protection dog is less likely to do so.

Worked alot pre covid and i wanted a dog around the family as well.    Ended up with an Akita.    After three years of ownership with "Charlie" zero complaints with his behavior.    He is protective of the house and family.  Probably more stubborn than a German Shepard but for my family our choice has worked out well.  

If you want a GSD, @Joker1.

The type of dog characteristics you are looking for are found in the Doberman breed with basic training.

Start training immediately.

I have been breeding and training K9, protection dogs, Shutzhund dogs for over ten years.

Do not wait a year.

Easiest and cheapeat way to do it is to join a local Shutzhund club.

Attached File


Attached File


Attached File

Dogs with the mental makeup to bite someone on command aren't for a casual dog owner.  That comes with a serious commitment to training and control of the animal.

Have to agree with this. Makes sense.

Exactly like our 2 Malinois, but mess with my wife or daughters you will pay the price

These are some of the whackiest statements about protection dogs I've seen in a while. One bit of advice I support would be to contact a local working club Schutzhund , PSA , Ring sport or whatever. We don't know your situation but I would say if you are going to be gone the dog needs to obey and respond to the wife. You mentioned sending the dog to be protection trained - do you realise this could be $10,000 and a year of time? It's really an ongoing situation constantly refreshing and problem solving. I think you might want to look into a mastiff type or large breed (if your girls can handle them) American Bulldog , any Mastiff etc.. Talk to a lot of people before you make avery important decision.Good luck.

@coldair. You still have your Golden?  Jessie turned gray in the muzzle when she got older too.

8654

that was golden number 1 Sheba D, she was a super protective golden, we just got number 8 Joshua and here he is with number 7 Caleb

Pretty much any dog will serve to alert the family as to anything amiss, then you grab a firearm.
My experience has been that male dogs tent to be one person dogs while females tend to be more family oriented, YYMV.

@coldair

Some good looking pups. I’ll be in the Golden market come spring. I want to say we discussed the breeder you use. Could you IM me that info again?

8654

We prefer Giant breeds. Our family is big on Great Danes and my brother -in-law has 2 Mastiffs- 180 and the other should be about 200 when fully grown- They have 4 kids, 5/4/2/6mons.  Out Giant breeds have always scared away people when walking, at the dog park or out for ice cream. Perfect for protection, their bark is great, (our neighbors would tell us all the time when they would walk past the house how menacing it sounded) not as likely to bite people and IF someone makes it in the door, they are eye level with Cujo.

Heed the posts above and know what you are getting into before you buy a dog.

the average guy has no idea what it is like to work with a hard, dominant dog.

my last dog was one of the best a guy could ask for. We spent thousands on training and worked with him every step of the way. He was a hard dog who didn't put up with nonsense as he got old. It was too painful to get up and go to the other room, so if you messed with him while he was sleeping, you were going to get it.

both of my children bear the scars of a light "correction" when they jumped on him while he was in deep sleep. My sons first four syllable sentence was "dogsname bites".

buy the ticket, take the ride. If we hadn't worked with him the way we did, he no doubt would have killed a stranger, or one of us. It's just the name of the game.

i doubt that's what your wife is looking for.

German shepards are very protective and loyal to it's family, starting with a pup is the right way to do it.

We bought a trained PPD two years ago.  He needs to be run regularly and worked regularly.  For him, ball is life.  

He has been a pretty dang good dog.  He's great with our son (10yo) and doesn't show aggression randomly unless one of us changes our energy, for lack of a better word.  When that happens, he hones in on the suspicious person and waits for the go word.  This is exactly what we wanted.

Knowing what we were after, the trainer figured out which dog was the best fit for us and she was right.  

OP, think long and hard about a PPD.  They're not a regular pet and really shouldn't be treated that way.

You may want to "test" the dogs you currently have.  It seems to be more about the individual dog than the breed.
You wouldn't think Golden-Retriever, but watch out.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYs7TToKVjM

lol

You cannot expect a breed of a dog that was not breed with an inherent designed temperament to flick a switch and become a "protection" dog.

Any golden retriever that would react that way does so out of fear. And any dog that reacts out of fear should not be trusted. With most K9 training programs, Police K9 green dogs will fail certification if they react to fear with aggression and are fear biting. Those are the dangerous and unpredictable dogs.

The absolute best ''watch'' dog I have ever had was a mal/shepard mix. Female, 100 lbs, absolutely LOVED kids, howled if a siren was around but other then that, quiet. Loved family interaction, would play until pooped out. Wife always questioned how good of a watch dog she was until the day she answered the door to someone selling liquid cleaning swill door to door. She said no and started to close the door and he put his foot in it to carry on with his spiel. What he DIDN'T know was the dog had quietly come into the ''mudroom'' and was just staring at him with her lips pulled up and ready to rumble. That dog had some of the longest canines I have ever seen. The guy saw it, started screaming, stumbling backwards fell on his ass off the porch. He kept screaming not to let the dog get him. The dog just sat down next to the wifes arm and watched him as he stumbled/ran off the property.

She never questioned how good she was again. No barking, no growling, just there and ready to go. She ate good that night.

Wait a minute.  Are you saying a mut-dog could actually be a protection dog !?!?!?!?!?
:p

Anyway, I am not a dog expert.  But, I think I would be in trouble if either of these guys (retrievers) realized I was danger:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZsSw5wwEJI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C9GyunvRAM
I have definitely heard of retrievers attacking assailants and taking bullets for their owners.

If I am allowed to go off-topic.  Teach your wife and 12yo how to run a gun, even if it's just a PCC 9mm.
That will probably be a lot cheaper than the dog-training.
Get some more dogs, sure, some may be natural protectors, others won't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7sNWBFu2tk

It's good that you admit/recognize you're not a dog expert. What you posted is a good learning tool and provides an example of folks expecting too much from dogs.

Not sure what the second video of a detection dog has to do with protection, it's a completely different skillset. You must have seen something in the video besides "Police" on the handlers hat & vest to draw your conclusion. I'm not seeing what you apparently saw though.

If you have worked with dogs that will actually fight a human you can tell the dog in first video is not "serious" and definitely not a dog you'd expect would actually fight with a human. I think another poster in the thread (BLKVoodoo) trains and/or broker/breeds dogs. He could probably explain far better than me what is shown in the video but it's akin to playing a game and not serious.

It is easy to see who here has been around working dogs and who is just talking out of their tail.

You can have a protection dog with a family. Work with a good breeder, or broker, to find a well-bred dog. A dog who is not safe around family, and non-threats, is not a stable dog and not a suitable working dog.

Reach out to Mike Suttle at Logan Haus Kennels in Lewisburg, WV. We have a few KNPV dutch shepherds from him and both are stable around people they know and are aloof to strangers. Threats? They recognize them quickly and are responsive.

Shoot me a PM if you have any questions.