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ZWE
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:10:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: odiedodi]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By merchantoffreedom: there are advantages to the pistol over the sbr |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:12:04 PM EDT
[#2]
How long until gun owners clamor for 87k ATF agents to approve paperwork?
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:12:49 PM EDT
[#3]
So how can CMMG continue selling pistol braced guns?
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:13:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Valravn: And such a list would need to be notarized every time an addition was made or would it be an internal trust document subject to the management of the trust itself? For ATF’s form (x) approval purposes it would need to be notarized prior to each form (x) submission if those assets enter the trust. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:14:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Registration is complicit, registration means you support and approve.
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:15:34 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kokopelli: Is there a Cliff’s notes version? TLDR;? ATF: FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS FOR FINAL RULE 2021-08F |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:15:34 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By odiedodi: I didn't say it would only be positive. A lot of state laws were based on federal laws, and it would cause problems on a state level if the NFA were nullified, without legislative remediation at the state level. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By odiedodi: Originally Posted By merchantoffreedom: there are advantages to the pistol over the sbr A Supreme Court win saying the feds can't regulate SBRs due to being in common use would result in wins against state laws in 3-12 months. Kharn |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:15:40 PM EDT
[#8]
It's all so confusing. I'll wait for the legal beagles to dissect it before I do anything.
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ZWE
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:16:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daveo: So how can CMMG continue selling pistol braced guns? |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:17:54 PM EDT
[#10]
So these have to be registered as individual and not as a trust unless the firearm was already in a trust.
I have a sbr in a trust already but have a braced Dagger/Glock mutt that I would probably sbr but it is not in the trust and don't really want to register it as an individual as other people in my family use it as well. Stupid rule is stupid, might still register it out of spite and throw the brace away afterwards, it's just a cheap pistol anyway. That way people can still borrow it as it will just be a handgun without the brace and not an sbr. They should let you do a trust like any other form 1...or maybe they're looking to have it tied to a specific individual for later confiscation. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:18:19 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nyktos: Originally Posted By Lucy-Lastic: What if someone started selling a buffer tube in the shape of a buttstock ? No attachment. Its a part that contains the buffer. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/0c96c781a5e6260d0827848aec47d205-381.gif Doesn't matter what provide the "area" it is now a rifle. (iv) Whether the surface area that allows the weapon to be fired from the shoulder is created by a buffer tube, receiver extension, or any other accessory, component, or other rearward attachment that is necessary for the cycle of operations; |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:18:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 80085: For ATF’s form (x) approval purposes it would need to be notarized prior to each form (x) submission if those assets enter the trust. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 80085: Originally Posted By Valravn: And such a list would need to be notarized every time an addition was made or would it be an internal trust document subject to the management of the trust itself? For ATF’s form (x) approval purposes it would need to be notarized prior to each form (x) submission if those assets enter the trust. I have a lawyer handle my NFA trust and he did not have me notarize the Schedule A for my trust, just when I created it. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:18:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN: Lol Not exactly. Don't you have to keep the gay brace on it? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN: Originally Posted By Rickesis: So… free form 1s for the next 4 months? Lol Not exactly. Don't you have to keep the gay brace on it? There’d be no classification to register it under that would only allow usage of the brace. An SBR is an SBR. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:19:47 PM EDT
[#14]
WHEN IS THE DAMN 120 DAYS??!!??
When does day zero/1 begin?! WHEN DOES THIS GET PUBLISHED so form 1s can be submitted under the free period? |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:20:05 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nehi: Registration is complicit, registration means you support and approve. Registration means I'm not willing to spend the rest of my natural fucking life in prison, but you do you. I don't judge the few honest "will not comply" folks. I admire them. I also believe 87% of those thumping thier chests and screaming it are completely full of shit |
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ZWE
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:20:13 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MidwestJ: WHEN IS THE DAMN 120 DAYS??!!?? When does day zero/1 begin?! WHEN DOES THIS GET PUBLISHED so form 1s can be submitted under the free period? |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:21:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Can somebody dumb this down for me?
Braced pistols will = SBR in 120 days? Therefore, if I choose to not register, there is no difference in removing the brace and putting on a stock? Still an unregistered SBR either way? If you do register the braced pistol lower, it is then a registered SBR, and you can remove the brace and put on a stock? Anything else I’m missing? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:22:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Papeles Por Favor
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:22:25 PM EDT
[#19]
So what happens to losers in commie states that don't allow NFA stuff? Is there an exemption for us serfs?
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:22:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BabaYaga777: Registration means I'm not willing to spend the rest of my natural fucking life in prison, but you do you. I don't judge the few honest "will not comply" folks. I admire them. I also believe 87% of those thumping thier chests and screaming it are completely full of shit Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BabaYaga777: Originally Posted By Nehi: Registration is complicit, registration means you support and approve. Registration means I'm not willing to spend the rest of my natural fucking life in prison, but you do you. I don't judge the few honest "will not comply" folks. I admire them. I also believe 87% of those thumping thier chests and screaming it are completely full of shit Do you think we are going to register them? Do you think we are going to sell them? |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:22:47 PM EDT
[#21]
LIVE: Review of ATF's Pistol Brace Final Rule
 LIVE: Review of ATF's Pistol Brace Final Rule |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:22:57 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: Can somebody dumb this down for me? Braced pistols will = SBR in 120 days? Therefore, if I choose to not register, there is no difference in removing the brace and putting on a stock? Still an unregistered SBR either way? If you do register the braced pistol lower, it is then a registered SBR, and you can remove the brace and put on a stock? Anything else I’m missing? If you have a Trust you need to show that the gun was in the trust prior to the date this thing enter the Fed Register. I just added my PTR9 to my Schedule A. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:23:18 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: Can somebody dumb this down for me? Braced pistols will = SBR in 120 days? Therefore, if I choose to not register, there is no difference in removing the brace and putting on a stock? Still an unregistered SBR either way? If you do register the braced pistol lower, it is then a registered SBR, and you can remove the brace and put on a stock? Anything else I’m missing? Yes: 1. FATF 2. This will last for about .5 seconds in front of a court. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:23:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mjohn3006: So before braces were a thing, people wrapped paracord or put a foam tube on the buffer tube. Then braces came. And Blades. And tail hooks. so what constitutes a brace? Is a bare buffer tube now considered a brace? Paracord? foam? Blade? It depends if you're brave enough. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:24:09 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daveo: So how can CMMG continue selling pistol braced guns? Same reason they are on the PSA website. The rule was signed. It has not yet been posted to the federal register, and the 120 has not started. Also... in my reading of the rule, and I am not an attorney but I read like a MF, disabled people who use a brace as an arm attachment may continue to do so. So that would be a legal use for a brace. |
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ZWE
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:24:30 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Low_Country: Can somebody dumb this down for me? Braced pistols will = SBR in 120 days? Therefore, if I choose to not register, there is no difference in removing the brace and putting on a stock? Still an unregistered SBR either way? If you do register the braced pistol lower, it is then a registered SBR, and you can remove the brace and put on a stock? Anything else I'm missing? |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:25:15 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Everrest: Nothing in the FINAL ruling starting on Pg 268 mention a "Pistol Buffer." However, there is discussion where they say they, "may consider the requirement for cycling" Discussion page 162-163 One objective design feature ATF may consider is whether the attachment is required for the cycle of operations of the weapon, which could indicate the firearm is not designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder. For example, an AR-type pistol with a standard 6- to 6-1/2-inch buffer tube may not be designed, made, and intended to be fired from the shoulder even if the buffer tube provides surface area that allows the firearm to be shoulder fired. On an AR-type pistol, the buffer tube encases a spring that drives the bolt forward when the bolt is driven into the buffer tube by the gas from the initial shot. The picture below displays the internal function of an AR-15 type rifle. The AR-type pistol is a variant of the rifle with the stock removed and has the same receiver and buffer tube function of the rifle version. I see so many here glancing at a snippet of a 293 page document and concluding that all AR15 pistols will be SBRs now because they have a buffer tube. If you read the entire (often poorly worded) document, that's not what it says. If the buffer tube is there because it is a functional part of the pistol's operation, it appears fine. It's when it's not a functional part and only there to create the ability to shoulder that it's a problem and contributes to definition as an SBR. They even give the example of a Glock put into an apparatus that gives it an AR buffer tube like extension that serves no functional purpose. I'm not a lawyer but I write and interpret a ton of legal documents and I'm pretty confident this is what is written. Not to be misconstrued that I agree with anything they are doing here. |
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WY, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:26:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mooreshawnm: Do you think we are going to register them? Do you think we are going to sell them? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mooreshawnm: Originally Posted By BabaYaga777: Originally Posted By Nehi: Registration is complicit, registration means you support and approve. Registration means I'm not willing to spend the rest of my natural fucking life in prison, but you do you. I don't judge the few honest "will not comply" folks. I admire them. I also believe 87% of those thumping thier chests and screaming it are completely full of shit Do you think we are going to register them? Do you think we are going to sell them? This thread sure has brought out some interesting specimens, hasn't it? 
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:27:05 PM EDT
[#29]
So what's stopping some from registering a rifle if this is a true amnesty? Weren't the other amnesty periods no questions asked?
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:27:22 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By odiedodi: Mostly right, but the ruling is effective immediately. Think of the 120 days as a pseudo amnesty period, but understand that legally, the second it's published, anything braced will be legally considered an SBR. Not after 120 days. Thank you. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:28:25 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sixgunner45: The Constitution of the United States. THe FATF isn't the legislative body, thus, it has no legal or Constitutional authority to make law. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sixgunner45: Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean: Forbidden by who? The Constitution of the United States. THe FATF isn't the legislative body, thus, it has no legal or Constitutional authority to make law. Lol. "Ink on a page." The rule of law hasn't been a thing for a while yet. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:28:31 PM EDT
[#32]
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:29:07 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mooreshawnm: Do you think we are going to register them? Do you think we are going to sell them? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mooreshawnm: Originally Posted By BabaYaga777: Originally Posted By Nehi: Registration is complicit, registration means you support and approve. Registration means I'm not willing to spend the rest of my natural fucking life in prison, but you do you. I don't judge the few honest "will not comply" folks. I admire them. I also believe 87% of those thumping thier chests and screaming it are completely full of shit Do you think we are going to register them? Do you think we are going to sell them? I don't give a shit what you do with them, that's every man's choice to make for himself. Those who do not comply I back and wish the best of luck. It's a chance I'm not willing to take. I don't agree with the ruling one bit, but there's a hell of a lot of laws I don't agree with that I follow as well. I also understand those who don't want to be on the NFA list, but I'm already well established on it. However those who don't believe there is a database of every 4473 you've ever filled out are kidding themselves. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:29:40 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MidwestJ: WHEN IS THE DAMN 120 DAYS??!!?? When does day zero/1 begin?! WHEN DOES THIS GET PUBLISHED so form 1s can be submitted under the free period? Watch here? https://www.federalregister.gov/agencies/alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives-bureau#documents |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:30:00 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KM6: Just another ATF ruling that will eventually become null and void, only this one comes with a free SBR.  I like the way you think! |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:30:24 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:30:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By odiedodi: Mostly right, but the ruling is effective immediately. Think of the 120 days as a pseudo amnesty period, but understand that legally, the second it's published, anything braced will be legally considered an SBR. Not after 120 days. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By odiedodi: Originally Posted By Low_Country: Can somebody dumb this down for me? Braced pistols will = SBR in 120 days? Therefore, if I choose to not register, there is no difference in removing the brace and putting on a stock? Still an unregistered SBR either way? If you do register the braced pistol lower, it is then a registered SBR, and you can remove the brace and put on a stock? Anything else I'm missing? If that’s the case, is there anything stopping us from legally removing a brace and replacing with a stock during the 120 day “amnesty” period? If it’s an SBR either way then it shouldn’t matter. But I’m not an attorney 
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:31:01 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BabaYaga777: For those who own no NFA items, I get it and I get why I, however, do. A bunch. I've intended to SBR 4 more that I have braces on, I just wasn't in a rush to do that. Given my situation, already being on "the official list", I'm essentially just getting free stamps and not having to have them engraved, correct? Where did you see no need to engrave? |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:32:49 PM EDT
[#39]
So just like that, they put all the brace makers out of business..
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:33:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Spade]
[#40]
Accordingly, any trust that seeks to register a "stabilizing brace" equipped firearm pursuant to Final Rule 2021R-08F must include with the eForm 1 application evidence that establishes the trust is the current possessor of the "stabilizing brace" equipped firearm, and possessed it before January 13, 2023. This evidence will generally include the signed, dated, and notarized terms of the trust or trust schedules that list or provide a description of the property held in trust. Accordingly, for trust applicants, ATF will perform a thorough review of the trust documents provided with the eForm 1 application to ensure the firearm sought to be registered to the trust was property possessed by the trust before January 13, 2023. Therefore, an eForm 1 application to register a "stabilizing brace" equipped firearm to a trust will be disapproved if the applicant fails to demonstrate the trust possessed the firearm before January 13, 2023. I was wrong. You apparently had to know this rule was coming and moved your "brace" gun to the trust prior to today. They know nobody puts non-NFA guns on trust. What a bunch of faggots. ETA: But the FAQ says this! Answer: In short, a trust may not register a firearm equipped with a “stabilizing brace” that is a short-barreled rifle pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F unless the trust can establish through documentary evidence that the trust possessed the firearm prior to the date the final rule is published in the Federal Register. These people have no idea what they're doing. It wasn't published today. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:33:06 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HRoark87: So millions of new applications. The AFT should have those sorted out by rapture. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HRoark87: Originally Posted By RamaSita: Wow. It does have the "free stamp" https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/480443/Screenshot_20230113_140703_Samsung_Notes-2670565.JPG So millions of new applications. The AFT should have those sorted out by rapture. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:33:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BLKVooDoo: http://mobileimages.lowes.com/productimages/09afe9ae-7736-4127-af4c-44cbe24d7975/02848677.jpg  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:34:52 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dieselman: Fuck em. Take the brace off and put on a bumpstock instead Post #19 NI |
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:35:24 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mooreshawnm: Unfortunately, no. Disarmament. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mooreshawnm: Originally Posted By madmacs69: Originally Posted By mooreshawnm: Originally Posted By jaqufrost: Originally Posted By CavScout: It is a mouse trap: FREE FOOD IN HERE, GO HERE FOR THE ALL YOU CAN EAT BUFFET anddddd ..SNAP. Dead. In the 90's a bunch of people registered USAS-12's. Others didn't and now most of been sold as spare parts. If ATF attempts to convict people based upon their amnesty registrations, they will lose quickly in court. ATF will lose slowly in court anyways. They've clearly overstepped current supreme court rulings. How has it generally ended globally and historically? War. Unfortunately, no. Disarmament. I believe that recent court rulings, including those on bumpstocks, have swayed in our favor. I've already dug up the pvc tomb I buried my BS in. Looks like it did when I put it in. It is ridiculous how states keep passing laws that the courts strike down in other states. Laws need to pass judicial review prior to being enacted after passing., and not making us follow a bad law until someone has the balls to get arrested and go to court. Legislators sre no different than those chemists changing a single molecule in THC so it is now "legal". They change "and" to "also" then re-submit. |
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ZWE
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:36:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: odiedodi]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HD2006: If that's the case, is there anything stopping us from legally removing a brace and replacing with a stock during the 120 day "amnesty" period? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HD2006: If that's the case, is there anything stopping us from legally removing a brace and replacing with a stock during the 120 day "amnesty" period? Originally Posted By realwar: So just like that, they put all the brace makers out of business.. 
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OR, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:37:34 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BabaYaga777: Registration means I'm not willing to spend the rest of my natural fucking life in prison, but you do you. I don't judge the few honest "will not comply" folks. I admire them. I also believe 87% of those thumping thier chests and screaming it are completely full of shit If you think this is lawful then go for it, or rid yourself of the offensive items. Registration is support that they can make up any rules/laws they feel like and change them on a whim. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:37:36 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TinSpinner: It's all so confusing. I'll wait for the legal beagles to dissect it before I do anything. That's really the best way to approach this IMO. From what I've been reading and hearing there's almost a dozen counter lawsuits against this today. Let the NFA get repealed! |
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:37:58 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By www-glock19-com: +1 That's why I piled in anything I even remotely wanted in the last year Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By www-glock19-com: Originally Posted By HRoark87: Originally Posted By RamaSita: Wow. It does have the "free stamp" https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/480443/Screenshot_20230113_140703_Samsung_Notes-2670565.JPG So millions of new applications. The AFT should have those sorted out by rapture. That's why I piled in anything I even remotely wanted in the last year Republicans need to keep those 87000 IRS agents and assign them to the Rubber Stamp department. Get this sorted out ricky-tick. Then fire them. Via a tweet with a Tik-Tok dance video telling them they are fired. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:38:48 PM EDT
[#49]
.
I will comply. I have wife and a family and a dog. A $700 AR pistol is not worth risking a felony charge. Anyone want to buy it? I figure I have 90 days to sell it. |
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Posted: 1/13/2023 7:41:12 PM EDT
[#50]
No local LEO sign-off requirement?
No engraving requirements? After "registering", do we have a legal SBR and can replace pistol brace with a real stock? This seems like one huge, setup by the ATF/AG. |
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