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OFFICIAL Russo-Ukrainian War (Page 1747 of 5589)
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Link Posted: 4/23/2022 4:13:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Dude just wants to eat his granola


Link Posted: 4/23/2022 4:17:03 PM EDT
[#2]
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/04/22/world/ukraine-russia-war-news#russias-military-paid-a-high-price-for-the-kremlins-victory-in-the-ruined-city-of-mariupol

Mariupol, a strategic port city, was targeted on the first day of Russia’s invasion two months ago. It has been surrounded by Russian forces for some 50 days and been the scene of some of the most intense fighting of the war.

While the defenders of the city are now confined to the steel plant, Ukrainians and western military analysts said that in weeks of fighting they killed high-ranking Russian soldiers and many members of elite Russian fighting units.

Even as the city around them was reduced to rubble, Ukrainian soldiers continued to ambush and attack Russians entering the city. It is impossible to know exactly how many Russian soldiers were killed in the battle but the Institute for the Study of War, a Washington think-tank, said they suffered “high casualties.”

“Russian forces involved in the battle of Mariupol are likely heavily damaged and Ukrainian forces succeeded in tying down and degrading a substantial Russian force,” according to the group’s analysis.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 4:20:36 PM EDT
[#3]
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Originally Posted By SafetyFirst:


Does it look like a panic button at the bottom of the table? My eyesight is not so great but that is what it looks like to me.

View Quote


Nah, but there IS another photo of that meeting that does show a hidden panic button.  That photo’s doctored anyway but the other one shows a set of buttons to Putin’s left, under the table edge. I think I saw it on Twitter but can’t find it right now.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 4:40:01 PM EDT
[#4]






Link Posted: 4/23/2022 4:44:22 PM EDT
[#5]
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:



Yea, skip to about 7 minutes in, the amount of worldwide nuke testing was insane, plus the Mega ton stuff.   Or you can speed the video up to get the idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCF7vPanrY
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Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Originally Posted By K5FAL:
Originally Posted By Glock63:

Lol, complete bullshit.  The nuclear winter crap has been debunked a million times.


Yep, if they only knew how many atmospheric tests the US, USSR, UK, France, and China did early in the Cold War, including big ones like Castle Bravo and Tsar Bomba.

We should all be dead now.



Yea, skip to about 7 minutes in, the amount of worldwide nuke testing was insane, plus the Mega ton stuff.   Or you can speed the video up to get the idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCF7vPanrY



Always amused by the test that Francy did in the middle of the ocean. I mean who are they going to surrender to next.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 4:50:53 PM EDT
[#6]
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Originally Posted By Jack67:


That’s some good stuff right there. Some cold analysis by the professionals who’ve at least gotten their own boots dirty.

Only 1/2 way through it, but one big take away for me - May 9 is likely to be a major pageant and tear jerker in order to announce the calling up of massive reserves and additional conscripts for a hell-or-highwater style Götterdämmerung.

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Originally Posted By Jack67:
Originally Posted By PurpleOtter:
Long read .PDF download of a think tank analysis of the protracted conflict:

Download .pdf

Operation Z: The Death Throes of an Imperial Delusion


That’s some good stuff right there. Some cold analysis by the professionals who’ve at least gotten their own boots dirty.

Only 1/2 way through it, but one big take away for me - May 9 is likely to be a major pageant and tear jerker in order to announce the calling up of massive reserves and additional conscripts for a hell-or-highwater style Götterdämmerung.



Kinda like Goebbels’ infamous “Total War” speech?  


Link Posted: 4/23/2022 5:00:08 PM EDT
[#7]
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Originally Posted By ludder093:
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gotta admit that is one good looking dog.  Seems smart too.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 5:11:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 5:14:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Putin races to salvage military secrets on board sunken Moskva: Russian president 'scrambles eight-ship flotilla to wreck of Black Sea Fleet flagship to secure coding devices and unexploded missiles' as dead crew families blast Kremlin 'lies' over sinking


Putin has launched a major salvage operation to the wreck of the downed Black Sea Fleet flagship to secure military secrets including coding devices, unexploded missiles, and possibly even attempt to bring the bodies of dead sailors back home, naval experts have claimed.

An eight-ship salvage flotilla including Kommuna, the world's oldest active warship, and submarine has been sent to the site of the sunken Moskva 80 miles off the coast of Odessa from Sevastopol, the large naval base in Russia-annexed Crimea, according to a report by Forbes.

Military expert HI Sutton has suggested that Putin may be hoping to retrieve 'cryptological materials - radios and keys indicating secret codes - as well as any weapons or logs that might be of interest to a foreign power'.



He explained that the sole purpose of the 315ft-long Kommuna, which was built 110 years ago for Tsar Nicholas II's navy and served in the Imperial and Soviet navies during both world wars, is to recover sunken vessels and cargo after a shipwreck or other maritime casualty.

But since the Moskva is around 160ft under water, experts believe it is unlikely that Kommuna will attempt to salvage the entire wreck. A US defence official told Forbes: 'That would be an enormous engineering task, to try to bring that ship up to the surface. We've seen no indication that they have shown any interest in doing that.'

The angry families of Russian servicemen desperately searching for their sons who they said served on the Moskva warship prior to its sinking have hit out at Kremlin 'lies' and 'bullying' after Putin had promised them they would not be sent to the warzone in Ukraine.

Some relatives have been warned they will not get financial 'compensation' for their loved-ones' deaths if they go to the media. Despite this, brave Dmitry Shkrebets, father of Yegor Shkrebets, has launched a campaign to force out the truth about what happened to the warship - and their sons - faced with a wall of obfuscation from the Russian authorities. He told Current Times: 'All the guilty should be punished for what they did. Or rather, what they didn't do.'

It took the Russian military more than a week to acknowledge that one serviceman died and 27 dozen others were missing after the ship - one of its flagship cruisers - sank in the Black Sea, reportedly the result of a Ukrainian missiles strike.

Russia's Defence Ministry said in its announcement on Friday the ship had been damaged by a fire, with 396 crew members evacuated. The ministry did not offer any explanation for its earlier claims that the full crew got off the vessel before it sank.

The loss of the Moskva, one of three missile cruisers of its kind in Russia's fleet, was shrouded in mystery from the moment it was first reported early on April 14. Ukraine said it hit the ship with missiles. The Russian Defence Ministry would not acknowledge an attack, saying only that a fire broke out on the vessel after ammunition detonated, causing serious damage.




In this photo provided by the Russian Defense Ministry Press Service, Russian navy missile cruiser Moskva is on patrol in the Mediterranean Sea near the Syrian coast on December 17, 2015





Continued

Yegor Shkrebets, 20, a conscript who went missing after the Moskva cruiser death. Posing with his father Dmitry Shkrebets.



Yegor Shkrebets posing with other sailors at Moskva cruiser, 4 days before the ship sank. Among them is another missing conscript, Mark Tarasov, 24
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 5:15:49 PM EDT
[#10]
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Originally Posted By SafetyFirst:


Does it look like a panic button at the bottom of the table? My eyesight is not so great but that is what it looks like to me.

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Originally Posted By SafetyFirst:


Does it look like a panic button at the bottom of the table? My eyesight is not so great but that is what it looks like to me.


Could it be as simple as Putin being nervous and panicy because he is not used to being near anybody?
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 5:52:25 PM EDT
[#11]
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Originally Posted By realwar:

Putin races to salvage military secrets on board sunken Moskva:

snip...
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I don't get russia's reactions to this as it would have been a slam dunk Goebbels/Dresden media event.  With FlightRadar showing an RC-135 and AWACS in the area, they could've easy spread the news that the Muskva had been hit with the help of NATO/U.S. with significant casualties.  That would've ginned up public support in russia and put the west on the defensive.  Instead, they continued to lie to the point of absurdity.  

Never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake but the news and propaganda potential was a missed opportunity by the russians.  Makes you wonder is anyone in charge is sober with a functioning liver.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 5:52:57 PM EDT
[#12]
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Originally Posted By Jack67:


Thiat was a great post to clarify it.

I also don’t buy the sniping angle - SoF are not sneaking that close to CPs, that consistently. That’s naive to think so.

This whole thing is so reminiscent of classic mistakes from the past. The biggest one that comes to mind is Panzer Group West HQ in Normandy in June 44.  They stood-up a command for all mobile forces to organize a D-Day counter-attack. The Germans were fresh from the Eastern Front, ignored all advice from Rommel’s staff and others about allied capabilities.  Set up a CP in the clear at a lovely Chateau and started broadcasting away.  Within days they’d been not only  ID’d by comint but absolutely obliterated in a coordinated RAF strike.  Germans had to hand command of the units off to an SS ground general idiot and all their mobile resources were wasted for weeks until a CoC could be re-established.  Honestly it seems there’s just little substantial difference between that behavior and error  and what we are seeing here.

These repeated Russian losses just smack of the same arrogance and ignorance - absolutely no understanding of a modern battlefield. It’s like they’ve never, ever, had a realistic wargame with an understanding of opponent capabilities.
View Quote


You can snipe with 127mm too.  It’s just a larger caliber.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 5:53:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: realwar] [#13]
Mariupol - The Battle for Azovstal - New Special Report Preview

Link Posted: 4/23/2022 6:18:49 PM EDT
[#14]
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Originally Posted By dispatch55126:


I don't get russia's reactions to this as it would have been a slam dunk Goebbels/Dresden media event.  With FlightRadar showing an RC-135 and AWACS in the area, they could've easy spread the news that the Muskva had been hit with the help of NATO/U.S. with significant casualties.  That would've ginned up public support in russia and put the west on the defensive.  Instead, they continued to lie to the point of absurdity.  

Never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake but the news and propaganda potential was a missed opportunity by the russians.  Makes you wonder is anyone in charge is sober with a functioning liver.
View Quote

As far as I can tell they have been trying to imply that NATO either helped or did it themselves.  Their internal propaganda (even aside from Moskva) has already shifted to heavily implying if not outright stating that they are really righting NATO which is why things aren't going so smoothly.  There is ample evidence of that.
Effectively this is Kursk all over again, proving that Putin/Russia haven't learned a thing.  They were NEVER going to be able to sweep Moskva under the rug.  It isn’t an expendable T72 with a nameless crew from the boondocks.  Its a prestige unit in a prestige service with family members who actually matter (somewhat) in Russian society.  It was a bad mistake to lie so blatantly about Moskva - it may cause Russians to wonder what else they are lying about.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 6:23:02 PM EDT
[#16]
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/04/22/world/ukraine-russia-war-news#russias-military-paid-a-high-price-for-the-kremlins-victory-in-the-ruined-city-of-mariupol

Mariupol, a strategic port city, was targeted on the first day of Russia’s invasion two months ago. It has been surrounded by Russian forces for some 50 days and been the scene of some of the most intense fighting of the war.

While the defenders of the city are now confined to the steel plant, Ukrainians and western military analysts said that in weeks of fighting they killed high-ranking Russian soldiers and many members of elite Russian fighting units.

Even as the city around them was reduced to rubble, Ukrainian soldiers continued to ambush and attack Russians entering the city. It is impossible to know exactly how many Russian soldiers were killed in the battle but the Institute for the Study of War, a Washington think-tank, said they suffered “high casualties.”

“Russian forces involved in the battle of Mariupol are likely heavily damaged and Ukrainian forces succeeded in tying down and degrading a substantial Russian force,” according to the group’s analysis.
View Quote



Books will be written even movies made about them
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 6:25:01 PM EDT
[#17]
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Lol clowns
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 6:25:46 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 6:37:48 PM EDT
[#19]
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Originally Posted By Jack67:

These repeated Russian losses just smack of the same arrogance and ignorance - absolutely no understanding of a modern battlefield. It’s like they’ve never, ever, had a realistic wargame with an understanding of opponent capabilities.
View Quote



To be fair, I don’t think any Army really trains it, to be fair.  At the CTCs platoon leaders and company commanders drop like flies, but because it’s their report card, Bn cdrs and BDE cdrs are almost never out of the fight.

US TOCs in OEF/OIF weren’t that special; you have this weird situation where a small country with limited fires is probably getting the best ISR in the world.

On the offense, knocking out a CP is far more important then  logistics as clearly the Russians don’t train it at a low level.  

My guess is being Russians they’d have the adjacent HQ take over as well, but yeah, this is a new development.  The ability to sigint a HQ and crush it is new.  Forgotten art.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:03:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:04:44 PM EDT
[#21]
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Originally Posted By Banditman:
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE RUSSIAN ATTACK ON UKRAINE PLEASE START ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT NUKES OR POST IN THOSE ALREADY GOING.
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no
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:05:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:07:47 PM EDT
[#23]
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Originally Posted By Zhukov:

You can obviously do a lot with less, and we created nuclear weapons with little more than slide rules. Things are a lot more technology dependent now.
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Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Originally Posted By USMCTanker:

The Russians have historically "done more with less" when it comes to nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles.  They successfully launched two FBMs from subs in the Arctic in 2019, so they must be doing something right.  Also, they recently developed an autonomous nuclear powered torpedo with a 2 MT warhead, so they obviously don't lack for the wherewithal to be innovative in areas we don't bother with.

You can obviously do a lot with less, and we created nuclear weapons with little more than slide rules. Things are a lot more technology dependent now.


What I was getting at is how the Soviets were able to achieve with higher mathematics written out on chalkboards what we did with the aid of computers, primitive as they may have been at the time.  They had the intellectual talent to get it done.  In an era when upscale retail stores in Moscow used the abacus because they didn’t have cash registers like we did and do in the west, the USSR overcame technological challenges and were still able to put an RV on target from thousands of miles away using mad math skills.

After the collapse of the USSR, computers with all of their computational power became available to Russia.  

I wouldn’t count on their ICBMs and FBMs not working just because their rolling stock was neglected while in storage, any more than I would count on a launch order from Putin being ignored by his senior military officers because we can’t understand how anyone could think like that.

Obviously, this conflict has a very strong potential to expand and go global.  We may get a front row seat to witnessing just how good the Russians are at maintaining the readiness of their strategic nuclear forces.  


Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:10:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Brimstone: The missiles the UK could send Ukraine - explained
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:13:48 PM EDT
[#25]
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Originally Posted By realwar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqpbmKLMmFg
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Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:14:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FDC] [#26]
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Originally Posted By CharlieR:



To be fair, I don’t think any Army really trains it, to be fair.  At the CTCs platoon leaders and company commanders drop like flies, but because it’s their report card, Bn cdrs and BDE cdrs are almost never out of the fight.

.
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Originally Posted By CharlieR:
Originally Posted By Jack67:

These repeated Russian losses just smack of the same arrogance and ignorance - absolutely no understanding of a modern battlefield. It’s like they’ve never, ever, had a realistic wargame with an understanding of opponent capabilities.



To be fair, I don’t think any Army really trains it, to be fair.  At the CTCs platoon leaders and company commanders drop like flies, but because it’s their report card, Bn cdrs and BDE cdrs are almost never out of the fight.

.


While yes, the rotation influences their report card and feedback is occasionally sought by the senior mentors on poor performing Bn cdrs, the main reason they are rarely out of the fight is because it is a $28Million exercise(in JRTC's case) designed to exercise and refine the BCT and Bn staffs and that commander is needed to drive most staff processes.  There is simply enough time in the rotation to lose the commander and derail any potential improvement the unit is making.  

Push the rotation from 14 to 30 days and you might have an opportunity to lose a commander for the day+ it takes to get a replacement at a CTC.  For now, we just have to settle for when he takes off with his TAC CP for too long.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:15:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: YaNi05] [#27]
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Originally Posted By Bunn19:


A few teams of saboteurs with MANPADs or loitering suicide drones could wreak havoc on their strategic bomber fleet.

I'd love to see a bunch of their Blackjacks get taken out on landing or take off with MANPADs or blow up/set on fire on the apron with switchblade 600s or other loitering suicide drones.
View Quote
It would be a good morale boost, but it really doesn't do much strategic. None of their bombers are stealthy, so they're all just launching cruise missiles from outside of Ukrainian airspace. They have plenty of other platforms to deploy cruise missiles from.
More strategic targets would be trains, fuel depots, munitions depots, supply convoys, etc. Cut off their ability to resupply and their war effort grinds to a halt.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:17:41 PM EDT
[#28]
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Originally Posted By Zhukov:

I don't think this got the attention it deserved from the tl;dr crowd, so let me post some salient info...
  • The invasion was planned by the FSB, not the MOD
  • Most units got word on extremely short notice that the invasion was a "go" - like 3 days, some as little as 24 hours.
  • The initial Russian advance on Kiev was very successful, but the Ukrainians had done a great job with setting up the defenses ahead of time.
  • Ukrainian artillery is responsible for most of the Russian losses even though it doesn't get mentioned a lot.
  • Kiev was indeed a major plan for the Russians, and the Ukrainian defense of their East and South was severely compromised by needing to defend the capital.
  • As a Ukrainian General Officer noted, 'the Russian equipment works as effectively as we feared, but it was incompetently employed'
  • The Russian MOD has wrested control of the operation from the FSB with the announcement that they were giving up on Kiev and concentrating on the Donbas. There's a lot of mistrust between the two.
  • Both countries have now accepted that this is a protracted war and will go well into the summer. Russia needs to do what it can to make gains before NATO materiel becomes a serious factor for Ukraine.
  • Russia has done a good job asserting almost total control of the propaganda war internally.
  • At the end of March, Russia made a decision to frame this as an ideological war and started a massive public campaign to push that narrative, trying to recreate the fervor of the Great Patriotic War.The Russian population is being prepared for a protracted war and further sacrifices. The war is being framed as NATO using Ukrainian Nazis to break Russia.
  • Russian foreign policy aims to frame the conflict in a way that shows the US is going to crush anyone who doesn't agree with their world view.
  • With the price of food and energy soaring, Russia is arguing that Western sanctions are imposing real hardship on many of the world's poorest, demonstrating how the West will prioritize its own interests at the expense of others.
  • Russia's conscript system is not doing well. They will use May 9th to generate a fever pitch of patriotism to get people to volunteer and officially rebrand the "special military operation" as a war.
  • Russia isn't necessarily running out of precision guided munitions yet, but they also need a reserve to defend against NATO and China.
  • The article goes into detail about how much Russian most modern weapons are heavily dependent on Western-produced, COTS electronic components. There is a huge effort underway to try to bypass sanctions and get these components via other means. This is a hugely important story and too detailed to summarize here. I highly suggest everyone read the article because it's extremely fascinating.
  • There's the obvious relationship between cutting off Russia's oil and gas, thus depriving them of income, while at the same time it raises the price of oil and gas, which makes them a lot of money. The outcome is uncertain.
  • Russia is actively trying to manage unrest in other countries that are like-minded like Moldova. There's a detailed analysis of what the FSB has done there, and again: I suggest everyone read this.
  • Re: Russian ideology is what drives the war summed up: When President Putin set out his reasons for invading Ukraine in a televised address, he described how the Soviet Union had been broken up by 'a truly fatal document, the so-called ethnic policy of the party in modern conditions'. Putin described how by empowering the constituent nationalities of the USSR, 'It is now that radicals and nationalists, including and primarily those in Ukraine, are taking credit for having gained independence. As we can see, this is absolutely wrong. The disintegration of our united country was brought about by the historic, strategic mistakes on the part of the Bolshevik leaders and the CPSU leadership, mistakes committed at different times in state-building and in economic and ethnic policies'.
  • Ukrainian victory is possible, but will demand hard fighting for some time to come.
  • Having first done little to set a narrative about the war, the Russian government had an opportunity to lay the groundwork for de-escalation in mid-March. It made a deliberate decision to escalate its rhetoric and ideologically mobilise its society. By banning dissent, and by holding local officials accountable for the organisation of patriotic mobilisation, the Russian government is in the process of radicalising its public.
  • The West has considerable issues leading into the summer. When countries like Germany face economic ruin, will they stay part of the coalition?
  • If Russia mobilises and eventually overcomes Ukrainian resistance then NATO will face an aggressive, isolated and militarised state.
  • If Russia loses, then Putin has radicalized his population and no results to show for it. Hard to imagine he could stay in power after that.
  • NATO states therefore need to consider how to manage escalation pathways that follow if Russia is not only defeated in Donbas but finds its newly mobilised and poorly trained troops, with few remaining stocks of precision munitions, unable to deliver a victory in the summer. The death of Putin's political project is plausible, but it has already inflicted immense damage internationally and risks doing considerably more.
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wonderful summary, thank you
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:22:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ServusVeritatis] [#29]
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Originally Posted By YaNi05:
It would be a good morale boost, but it really doesn't do much strategic. None of their bombers is stealthy, so they're all just launching cruise missiles from outside of Ukrainian airspace.
More strategic targets would be trains, fuel depots, munitions depots, supply convoys, etc. Cut off their ability to resupply and their war effort grinds to a halt.
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Originally Posted By YaNi05:
Originally Posted By Bunn19:


A few teams of saboteurs with MANPADs or loitering suicide drones could wreak havoc on their strategic bomber fleet.

I'd love to see a bunch of their Blackjacks get taken out on landing or take off with MANPADs or blow up/set on fire on the apron with switchblade 600s or other loitering suicide drones.
It would be a good morale boost, but it really doesn't do much strategic. None of their bombers is stealthy, so they're all just launching cruise missiles from outside of Ukrainian airspace.
More strategic targets would be trains, fuel depots, munitions depots, supply convoys, etc. Cut off their ability to resupply and their war effort grinds to a halt.


Uh. You would force Russia to maintain massive amounts of internal security forces that can’t be committed to Ukraine.

If you were able to kill bombers on the runway that is definitely a huge boost but also a huge hit for Russia. Those pilots should have to risk death for firing cruise missiles and some of them need to be killed. Russia has to know Ukraine can touch them anywhere.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:25:05 PM EDT
[#30]
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Originally Posted By 2tired2run:
So how did the Siemens plcs end up in iran? The point of sanctions is to deny dual use technologies.   EU countries have been slobbering all over themselves for years to do business with Iran.  Point being Germany and others dont give a shit they'll sell their souls to make a buck and their governments either look the other way or actively encourage it.  
Why do you think the EU is so eager was so eager to do a deal with Iran.  They wanted the business just like they wanted Russian energy and business.  


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It's probably safe to say that there are complex loopholes in sanctions since politicians are in charge of those.  Plus, Germany does want Germany wants regardless of their "allies".
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:25:52 PM EDT
[#31]
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Originally Posted By dispatch55126:
I don't get Russia's reactions to this as it would have been a slam dunk Goebbels/Dresden media event.  With Flight Radar showing an RC-135 and AWACS in the area, they could've easy spread the news that the Muskva had been hit with the help of NATO/U.S. with significant casualties.  That would've ginned up public support in Russia and put the west on the defensive.  Instead, they continued to lie to the point of absurdity.  

Never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake but the news and propaganda potential was a missed opportunity by the Russians.  Makes you wonder is anyone in charge is sober with a functioning liver.
View Quote


Excellent point
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:26:22 PM EDT
[#32]
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:27:24 PM EDT
[#33]
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Originally Posted By Zhukov:

I don't think this got the attention it deserved from the tl;dr crowd, so let me post some salient info...
  • The invasion was planned by the FSB, not the MOD
  • Most units got word on extremely short notice that the invasion was a "go" - like 3 days, some as little as 24 hours.
  • The initial Russian advance on Kiev was very successful, but the Ukrainians had done a great job with setting up the defenses ahead of time.
  • Ukrainian artillery is responsible for most of the Russian losses even though it doesn't get mentioned a lot.
  • Kiev was indeed a major plan for the Russians, and the Ukrainian defense of their East and South was severely compromised by needing to defend the capital.
  • As a Ukrainian General Officer noted, 'the Russian equipment works as effectively as we feared, but it was incompetently employed'
  • The Russian MOD has wrested control of the operation from the FSB with the announcement that they were giving up on Kiev and concentrating on the Donbas. There's a lot of mistrust between the two.
  • Both countries have now accepted that this is a protracted war and will go well into the summer. Russia needs to do what it can to make gains before NATO materiel becomes a serious factor for Ukraine.
  • Russia has done a good job asserting almost total control of the propaganda war internally.
  • At the end of March, Russia made a decision to frame this as an ideological war and started a massive public campaign to push that narrative, trying to recreate the fervor of the Great Patriotic War.The Russian population is being prepared for a protracted war and further sacrifices. The war is being framed as NATO using Ukrainian Nazis to break Russia.
  • Russian foreign policy aims to frame the conflict in a way that shows the US is going to crush anyone who doesn't agree with their world view.
  • With the price of food and energy soaring, Russia is arguing that Western sanctions are imposing real hardship on many of the world's poorest, demonstrating how the West will prioritize its own interests at the expense of others.
  • Russia's conscript system is not doing well. They will use May 9th to generate a fever pitch of patriotism to get people to volunteer and officially rebrand the "special military operation" as a war.
  • Russia isn't necessarily running out of precision guided munitions yet, but they also need a reserve to defend against NATO and China.
  • The article goes into detail about how much Russian most modern weapons are heavily dependent on Western-produced, COTS electronic components. There is a huge effort underway to try to bypass sanctions and get these components via other means. This is a hugely important story and too detailed to summarize here. I highly suggest everyone read the article because it's extremely fascinating.
  • There's the obvious relationship between cutting off Russia's oil and gas, thus depriving them of income, while at the same time it raises the price of oil and gas, which makes them a lot of money. The outcome is uncertain.
  • Russia is actively trying to manage unrest in other countries that are like-minded like Moldova. There's a detailed analysis of what the FSB has done there, and again: I suggest everyone read this.
  • Re: Russian ideology is what drives the war summed up: When President Putin set out his reasons for invading Ukraine in a televised address, he described how the Soviet Union had been broken up by 'a truly fatal document, the so-called ethnic policy of the party in modern conditions'. Putin described how by empowering the constituent nationalities of the USSR, 'It is now that radicals and nationalists, including and primarily those in Ukraine, are taking credit for having gained independence. As we can see, this is absolutely wrong. The disintegration of our united country was brought about by the historic, strategic mistakes on the part of the Bolshevik leaders and the CPSU leadership, mistakes committed at different times in state-building and in economic and ethnic policies'.
  • Ukrainian victory is possible, but will demand hard fighting for some time to come.
  • Having first done little to set a narrative about the war, the Russian government had an opportunity to lay the groundwork for de-escalation in mid-March. It made a deliberate decision to escalate its rhetoric and ideologically mobilise its society. By banning dissent, and by holding local officials accountable for the organisation of patriotic mobilisation, the Russian government is in the process of radicalising its public.
  • The West has considerable issues leading into the summer. When countries like Germany face economic ruin, will they stay part of the coalition?
  • If Russia mobilises and eventually overcomes Ukrainian resistance then NATO will face an aggressive, isolated and militarised state.
  • If Russia loses, then Putin has radicalized his population and no results to show for it. Hard to imagine he could stay in power after that.
  • NATO states therefore need to consider how to manage escalation pathways that follow if Russia is not only defeated in Donbas but finds its newly mobilised and poorly trained troops, with few remaining stocks of precision munitions, unable to deliver a victory in the summer. The death of Putin's political project is plausible, but it has already inflicted immense damage internationally and risks doing considerably more.
View Quote


File this under “Things Not Reported on the Nightly News” for 1000.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:33:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dispatch55126:


I don't get russia's reactions to this as it would have been a slam dunk Goebbels/Dresden media event.  With FlightRadar showing an RC-135 and AWACS in the area, they could've easy spread the news that the Muskva had been hit with the help of NATO/U.S. with significant casualties.  That would've ginned up public support in russia and put the west on the defensive.  Instead, they continued to lie to the point of absurdity.  

Never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake but the news and propaganda potential was a missed opportunity by the russians.  Makes you wonder is anyone in charge is sober with a functioning liver.
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Originally Posted By dispatch55126:
Originally Posted By realwar:

Putin races to salvage military secrets on board sunken Moskva:

snip...


I don't get russia's reactions to this as it would have been a slam dunk Goebbels/Dresden media event.  With FlightRadar showing an RC-135 and AWACS in the area, they could've easy spread the news that the Muskva had been hit with the help of NATO/U.S. with significant casualties.  That would've ginned up public support in russia and put the west on the defensive.  Instead, they continued to lie to the point of absurdity.  

Never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake but the news and propaganda potential was a missed opportunity by the russians.  Makes you wonder is anyone in charge is sober with a functioning liver.

They're possibly trying to avoid WWIII with NATO. Instead of calling it a War, it's called a Special Operation. Denying the ship was sunk by military forces probably in order to subdue any bloodlust for revenge from the Russian public and widening the war. I just think of when Truman called the Korea war a "Police Action", and not a war in order to keep it from boiling over. I just see the parallels there.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:34:42 PM EDT
[#35]
Has anyone ever documented the now accepted narrative of "Russia expected to take Kiev" and, therefore, win the war in a matter of a few days?
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:39:17 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doc540:
Has anyone ever documented the now accepted narrative of "Russia expected to take Kiev" and, therefore, win the war in a matter of a few days?
View Quote

Well given how much they put into trying to take it I'd say it was the plan. Are you saying it was not on the menu?
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:40:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doc540:
Has anyone ever documented the now accepted narrative of "Russia expected to take Kiev" and, therefore, win the war in a matter of a few days?
View Quote

Captured Russian documents indicated as much.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:41:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RolandofGilead] [#38]
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Originally Posted By doc540:
Has anyone ever documented the now accepted narrative of "Russia expected to take Kiev" and, therefore, win the war in a matter of a few days?
View Quote



What do you mean? There were captured docs early in the war showing Russia expected to take the whole of Ukraine very quickly. I don't think it was exactly 3 days (but it could have been)...I'm remembering 2 weeks or something like that.

Regardless, they certainly expected to take Kiev- it's not a "narrative"

Eta US intelligence says Putin expected to capture it in 2 days, and I also now remember a Russian state website that prematurely published the capture of Kiev and destruction of Ukraine's military within a couple days.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:42:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: YaNi05] [#39]
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Originally Posted By kncook:


Uh. You would force Russia to maintain massive amounts of internal security forces that can't be committed to Ukraine.

If you were able to kill bombers on the runway that is definitely a huge boost but also a huge hit for Russia. Those pilots should have to risk death for firing cruise missiles and some of them need to be killed. Russia has to know Ukraine can touch them anywhere.
View Quote
You didn't read my post.

You can tie up their forces by attacking targets that result in a strategic victory. Meaning, doing things that moves you closer to winning the war. Trains, bridges, supply convoys, etc. Shooting down a couple bombers is just a PR stunt. They can launch cruise missiles from ships, subs, coastal batteries, and other aircraft (SU-30/34/35).
If you consider shooting a couple bombers down a strategic victory, please explain how. It doesn't stop Russia from shooting cruise missiles; it attacks only one delivery platform.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:43:58 PM EDT
[#40]
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Originally Posted By m35ben:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZhWo11NGyg
View Quote

Now, all they need is some Hellfire to go with it!
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:47:05 PM EDT
[#41]
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Originally Posted By Houlagan72:

Now, all they need is some Hellfire to go with it!
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Originally Posted By Houlagan72:
Originally Posted By m35ben:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZhWo11NGyg

Now, all they need is some Hellfire to go with it!

Brimstone started life as their improved version of Hellfire
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:49:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ryan_Ruck] [#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kncook:


Uh. You would force Russia to maintain massive amounts of internal security forces that can’t be committed to Ukraine.

If you were able to kill bombers on the runway that is definitely a huge boost but also a huge hit for Russia. Those pilots should have to risk death for firing cruise missiles and some of them need to be killed. Russia has to know Ukraine can touch them anywhere.
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Originally Posted By kncook:
Originally Posted By YaNi05:
Originally Posted By Bunn19:


A few teams of saboteurs with MANPADs or loitering suicide drones could wreak havoc on their strategic bomber fleet.

I'd love to see a bunch of their Blackjacks get taken out on landing or take off with MANPADs or blow up/set on fire on the apron with switchblade 600s or other loitering suicide drones.
It would be a good morale boost, but it really doesn't do much strategic. None of their bombers is stealthy, so they're all just launching cruise missiles from outside of Ukrainian airspace.
More strategic targets would be trains, fuel depots, munitions depots, supply convoys, etc. Cut off their ability to resupply and their war effort grinds to a halt.


Uh. You would force Russia to maintain massive amounts of internal security forces that can’t be committed to Ukraine.

If you were able to kill bombers on the runway that is definitely a huge boost but also a huge hit for Russia. Those pilots should have to risk death for firing cruise missiles and some of them need to be killed. Russia has to know Ukraine can touch them anywhere.

That plus those bombers, especially the Blackjacks, are an irreplaceable asset of their nuclear forces so taking them out directly benefits us and the rest of the West. They've spent a lot of money upgrading those Blackjacks.

It would be equivalent to us losing B-2s.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:49:21 PM EDT
[#43]
German reconnaissance drone "Vector" was delivered to Ukrainian troops defending Dnipro

Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:49:32 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doc540:
Has anyone ever documented the now accepted narrative of "Russia expected to take Kiev" and, therefore, win the war in a matter of a few days?
View Quote



15 days to capture the whole country
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 7:54:46 PM EDT
[#45]
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Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:



15 days to capture the whole country
View Quote



The Biden admin had predicted Kiev would fall within 48hrs. Biden has been wrong his entire life.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 8:01:35 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By realwar:



The Biden admin had predicted Kiev would fall within 48hrs. Biden has been wrong his entire life.
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Originally Posted By realwar:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:



15 days to capture the whole country



The Biden admin had predicted Kiev would fall within 48hrs. Biden has been wrong his entire life.


And so did at least four retired generals and colonels I saw on CNN and Fox News in January and February (through mid March with some too).

All "experts" but they only looked at numbers of weapons and soldiers just like a child would look at toy soldiers on the floor and determine that the most soldiers would win. They never took into account Ukrainian people and Ukrainian history - not one I saw.

General Keene just said last week that he will no longer under estimate the Ukrainian people. He has started wearing a USA/ Ukraine flags lapel pin.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 8:01:53 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By R0N:

Brimstone started life as their improved version of Hellfire
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Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By Houlagan72:
Originally Posted By m35ben:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZhWo11NGyg

Now, all they need is some Hellfire to go with it!

Brimstone started life as their improved version of Hellfire

Shiiit! I learned two new things today.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 8:03:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ServusVeritatis] [#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By YaNi05:
You didn't read my post.

You can tie up their forces by attacking targets that result in a strategic victory. Meaning, doing things that moves you closer to winning the war. Trains, bridges, supply convoys, etc. Shooting down a couple bombers is just a PR stunt. They can launch cruise missiles from ships, subs, coastal batteries, and other aircraft (SU-30/34/35).
If you consider shooting a couple bombers down a strategic victory, please explain how. It doesn't stop Russia from shooting cruise missiles; it attacks only one delivery platform.
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Originally Posted By YaNi05:
Originally Posted By kncook:


Uh. You would force Russia to maintain massive amounts of internal security forces that can't be committed to Ukraine.

If you were able to kill bombers on the runway that is definitely a huge boost but also a huge hit for Russia. Those pilots should have to risk death for firing cruise missiles and some of them need to be killed. Russia has to know Ukraine can touch them anywhere.
You didn't read my post.

You can tie up their forces by attacking targets that result in a strategic victory. Meaning, doing things that moves you closer to winning the war. Trains, bridges, supply convoys, etc. Shooting down a couple bombers is just a PR stunt. They can launch cruise missiles from ships, subs, coastal batteries, and other aircraft (SU-30/34/35).
If you consider shooting a couple bombers down a strategic victory, please explain how. It doesn't stop Russia from shooting cruise missiles; it attacks only one delivery platform.


Like I said before. It’s only a part of a larger sabotage op. It doesn’t take a giant amount of troops to do sabotage in Russia….but will cause Russia to hold and secure ALL major logistics and military infrastructure. Those 10 teams of guys attacking targets through Russia can in turn cause Russia to remove THOUSANDS of troops/security forces off the battlefield and keep them at internal positions. Those bombers are super valuable. They would have to commit a lot to protecting them after they are hit.

That’s a huge result for little cost.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 8:03:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: weptek911] [#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doc540:
Has anyone ever documented the now accepted narrative of "Russia expected to take Kiev" and, therefore, win the war in a matter of a few days?
View Quote


They sent police units with riot shields and riot helmets & batons in prison trucks! OMOH or whatever they call them. What else do you need to know?
They could have done it if Zelinsky hadn’t turned  down cowardly Biden’s offer of evacuation. ‘ I don’t need a ride I need ammo’ That fucked up their timetable, that and Ukrainians being bad asses.
Link Posted: 4/23/2022 8:04:57 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By realwar:



The Biden admin had predicted Kiev would fall within 48hrs. Biden has been wrong his entire life.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By realwar:
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:



15 days to capture the whole country



The Biden admin had predicted Kiev would fall within 48hrs. Biden has been wrong his entire life.



Yeah, but to be fair the Intel guys told him that and most of us didn't think much different.
I mean you're right Biden is almost always wrong, so this isn't an exception. I'm just saying in this case I can't really blame him.
Did you predict it would go like it has? Good on you if you did, you're in the minority lol.
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OFFICIAL Russo-Ukrainian War (Page 1747 of 5589)
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