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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/25/2022 10:32:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tiberius: The Italian Army actively interfered with attempts to round up Jews and in a couple cases took Jews that had been taken from collaborators by force. Eichmann and Himmler cried to Mussolini about it but he refused to intervene. Then there was Denmark….the Resistance there was tipped off by none other than the SS officer overseeing the Occupation that the round up was coming and what would happen to those caught in it. Due to this, all but a few Danish Jews escaped to Sweden. Hungary refused to deport Jews until 1944 when Germany removed the Hungarian President and installed a nazi puppet resulting in about 500K Jews being deported and murdered. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 10:41:36 PM EDT
[#2]
Two Ukrainians assaulting a Russian hole. Too tired to reword that.
Part 2
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/25/2022 10:42:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dillydilly: Find your nearest Ukrainian immigrant and maybe they can cobble one up for ya  Those are common in Hungary and Romania too. There is a bit of "science" that goes into building one and once it gets hot, it can stay hot for days. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 10:45:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Capta]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093:
NAFO response on point! |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 10:50:01 PM EDT
[#5]
There's way too damn much talk about potential war with China in this thread, and there are too many silly what-ifs that don't seem based in reality.
Some basics that seem to be overlooked or forgotten: 1) The level of economic co-dependence between the US and China is really damn high. Severing those ties would tremendously disruptive to both parties to an extent that likely outweighs the strategic importance of Taiwan, the oil rich areas of the South China Sea, or elsewhere. That's not sexy to talk about in a war thread, but it's true. 2) Nuclear powers don't fight direct conventional wars against each other for pretty obvious reasons. If that changes, we're in completely undiscovered territory as a species. 3) Most of the weapons/systems the US is providing to Ukraine would be of very limited value in a shooting war against China. 4a) In the event China really does make a move on Taiwan, there will be a game of chicken between the US and China, and it would be surprising if neither nation blinks. 4b) In the event of a proxy war against China in Taiwan, keeping Taiwan supplied will be orders of magnitude harder than supplying Ukraine... if not straight up impossible. We can't do for Taiwan what we have done for Ukraine. It's not geographically feasible. Now that we've got that out of the way, the actual war this thread is about seems like it's about to turn some serious corners in the next week or two... |
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NZL
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Posted: 10/25/2022 10:55:21 PM EDT
[#6]
Putins next great idea. Ship migrants to konigsberg and try to flood Europe with rapefugees 
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Posted: 10/25/2022 10:55:56 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jpk33: I can see this scenario play out. Serious question, do you see this escalating into a nuclear exchange by either party (especially Russia) if this kicks off? (Assuming that Russia has operational nukes?) Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jpk33: Originally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By stone-age: Konstantine says china is planning to be 1 of 2 world powers and they plan to accomplish this by taking from russia the resources they need to do it. USA and China is their future. Konstantine, Inside Russia.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMA5oTtZudwBeen saying this the whole thread. Our tactic for managing both Russia and China over the next couple of decades is to steer them into conflict over Eastern Russia. Russian resources in the context of a severely weakened Russia is simply too tempting for China to ignore. We redirect China from Taiwan, which is now small potatos. We redirect Russia from Ukraine/Europe because Russia knows (just like they know now) that they aren’t going to invade. We steer our two main enemies into major conflict over stakes which neither can possibly ignore. Russia has to hold its land at any cost, and China has to have resources with secure logistical routes. We’ll support Russia enough to drag things out until China implodes and Russia is totally exhausted. Then maybe they’ll be let back into polite European society. The next Great Patriotic War isn’t in Ukraine, it’s in Siberia. I can see this scenario play out. Serious question, do you see this escalating into a nuclear exchange by either party (especially Russia) if this kicks off? (Assuming that Russia has operational nukes?) I say this, sincerely not to glorify the situation, but as an amateur student of great power politics: if the nukes fly between Russia and China - we get to sit back and watch our two enemies destroy each other and our hands are clean. FWIW i think there is a significantly higher chance of a major nuclear exchange between Russia and China than between Russia and the west, because again, Russia knows the west isn’t going to invade them, but China definitely will. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:00:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Not sure if this was posted before, but pretty cool.
 GoPro of Nlaw Gunner in Ukraine |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:00:43 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dillydilly: Wouldn’t be surprised if they fortify Oleshky and actually fight hard to prevent a crossing into East Kherson. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dillydilly: Originally Posted By HIPPO:
Wouldn’t be surprised if they fortify Oleshky and actually fight hard to prevent a crossing into East Kherson. I'm hoping they cross over at Nova Kahkovka and come down the left bank, cutting off every Russian remaining on the right bank. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:02:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kncook: Ukraine GRU need to put a boot on that cockroach. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kncook: Originally Posted By HIPPO:
Ukraine GRU need to put a boot on that cockroach. They may not have to. Kadyrov’s power derives 100% from Russia’s ability and willingness to genocide the Chechen people. When that ability wanes, as it is already, the Chechens will deal with this quisling themselves, and it would be far more merciful if the Ukrainians got to him first. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:04:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: I think you are misinterpreting my points because they were brief and not expanded: 1) The point is not that we need a ground-heavy force structure to counter China. The point is that we HAVE one and re-tooling that to face the A2/AD si not easy, quick, cheap, or politically smooth. The end game here is not clear, but one outcome is potentially dramatically scaling back our army in the future, in favor of a stronger air/naval force. 2) The war is not over ground. It's over resources and maritime trade routes. Same as the Pacific War. 3) At this point, no. But we are discussing the future and that is precisely what they are building to be able to do. 4) We need at least political backing - which is looking up in fact. My point was in RELATIVE strength ratios, not absolute. It's easier to face down a Russian Threat with NATO/EU partnership, than to face down a Chinese threat with the existing alliance structure in the Pacific. I am not arguing that we should leave Russia intact in its current form, or that our weapons are being wasted there. Not at all. I'm just pointing out it changes the future balance and that will be an issue we will have to address. In the short term, that re-alignment favors China. Just a fact, not a reason we should not support Ukraine or let Russia off the hook in any way. It's just a fact we have to address in our strategic planning. China will very likely lose 50% of its current population over the next 30 years due to its demographics. Father Time takes no prisoners and their 1 child policy greased the skids. They have 10 years at most to do whatever military expansion they have planned. After that, they won't have enough people to man a military with the capability (non-nuclear) to force their way to the resources they need to feed and clothe themselves. Their best bet is to learn how to play nice with their neighbors and establish peaceful trade agreements with the World. They won't, but they should. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:06:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Two Ukrainians assaulting a Russian hole. Too tired to reword that.
Part 2
Looks like the Russian dragged his buddy at first….then he mag dumps the Russian in the end. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:08:39 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:11:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Two Ukrainians assaulting a Russian hole. Too tired to reword that.
Part 2
Pretty intense shit. I bet that guy wishes he could carry about 300 grenades. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:11:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Two Ukrainians assaulting a Russian hole. Too tired to reword that.
Part 2
Sheesh how many nades did he throw at them? |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:12:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I think the main concern keeps coming back to China...If China minds their own business and never makes a move for the title (like they have been talking about non-stop) then taking out the strong, aggressive Russia is a good thing. If on the other hand, China moves after we have spent ourselves dry taking the counterbalance of Russia of the board, and China only has US and Europe to contend with, then that would be bad for us. We dont know how things will play out. I personally think helping Ukraine is a MUST, even if it ends up helping China geopolitically. If we sit by and tolerate brutality and aggression now because maybe, possibly in the future we may need brutal Russia against China, then we probably dont deserve to own the future. We made that mistake during WWII needing Russian brutality. It got us where we are today. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By Billy_Ringo: Dealing with a strong combative aggressive Russia with weapons and a history of genocide is preferable to trying to manage a depleted militarily and economically weakened Russia with very limited punching power? Having to constantly prepare for two major military threats versus one is preferable? We may have to agree to disagree on this one. I think the main concern keeps coming back to China...If China minds their own business and never makes a move for the title (like they have been talking about non-stop) then taking out the strong, aggressive Russia is a good thing. If on the other hand, China moves after we have spent ourselves dry taking the counterbalance of Russia of the board, and China only has US and Europe to contend with, then that would be bad for us. We dont know how things will play out. I personally think helping Ukraine is a MUST, even if it ends up helping China geopolitically. If we sit by and tolerate brutality and aggression now because maybe, possibly in the future we may need brutal Russia against China, then we probably dont deserve to own the future. We made that mistake during WWII needing Russian brutality. It got us where we are today. People arguing that we need a strong Russia to counterbalance China are forgetting that we can turn right around and help Russia against China when and how it suits us. Russia might know - ok, WILL KNOW they’re getting used but won’t have a choice. For China, this is an historic opportunity to grab the brass ring. It would've been unthinkable a year ago, and they can’t afford not to try. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:13:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Julian_JJE: Evening, I'm a spectator here but I wanted I wanted to share a quote from my congressman after sharing a link of the progressive letters: "Sadly again far right and far left merge. They should know Putin will not abide by any negotiation- remember the promises of Budapest and Minsk! Only Peace Through Strength works!" This is the greatest bipartisan issue of our era. There may be annoying banter but the support in congress will remain. Thanks. I think I know the congressman given your location and screen name. Good to hear. One less politician to beat this month over stupid shit from Ukraine to our local catch-and-release justice system.  In context of the current discussion, there is a fate worse than freezing to death with no electricity or Netflix. It's Russian rule. The Cold War Polish kid side of me says: Solidarność, bitches. 
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:14:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dillydilly]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime:
 Split that couple in 2 |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:16:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: Pretty intense shit. I bet that guy wishes he could carry about 300 grenades. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: Originally Posted By Prime: Two Ukrainians assaulting a Russian hole. Too tired to reword that.
Part 2
Pretty intense shit. I bet that guy wishes he could carry about 300 grenades. My thought too. How could you ever carry enough grenades for that bullshit? I'd want a steady supply until my aim improved and I was dropping every one in the hole. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:21:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dillydilly]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kagetora: My thought too. How could you ever carry enough grenades for that bullshit? I'd want a steady supply until my aim improved and I was dropping every one in the hole. Ya based on the drones view, his aim left a lot to be desired lol. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:24:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Two Ukrainians assaulting a Russian hole. Too tired to reword that.
Part 2
I’d say a 30-round mag to the face probably finished that guy off. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:30:48 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dillydilly: Ya based on the drones view, his aim left a lot to be desired lol. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dillydilly: Originally Posted By Kagetora: My thought too. How could you ever carry enough grenades for that bullshit? I'd want a steady supply until my aim improved and I was dropping every one in the hole. Ya based on the drones view, his aim left a lot to be desired lol. Well, I'd never fault the guy. I doubt I'd do any better under that sort of pressure. But, damn...just stand behind me and keep feeding me grenades until I get it right.
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:43:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Capta]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bassgasm: There's way too damn much talk about potential war with China in this thread, and there are too many silly what-ifs that don't seem based in reality. Some basics that seem to be overlooked or forgotten: 1) The level of economic co-dependence between the US and China is really damn high. Severing those ties would tremendously disruptive to both parties to an extent that likely outweighs the strategic importance of Taiwan, the oil rich areas of the South China Sea, or elsewhere. That's not sexy to talk about in a war thread, but it's true. 2) Nuclear powers don't fight direct conventional wars against each other for pretty obvious reasons. If that changes, we're in completely undiscovered territory as a species. 3) Most of the weapons/systems the US is providing to Ukraine would be of very limited value in a shooting war against China. 4a) In the event China really does make a move on Taiwan, there will be a game of chicken between the US and China, and it would be surprising if neither nation blinks. 4b) In the event of a proxy war against China in Taiwan, keeping Taiwan supplied will be orders of magnitude harder than supplying Ukraine... if not straight up impossible. We can't do for Taiwan what we have done for Ukraine. It's not geographically feasible. Now that we've got that out of the way, the actual war this thread is about seems like it's about to turn some serious corners in the next week or two... I agree all this is unknowable but talking about it as a sidebar is relevant, and IMO gives everyone access to perspectives that are at least interesting to think about 1) the idea of economic interdependence preventing wars has been pretty well debunked. Germany/France, Germany/Russia, US/Japan, etc. Major economic ties between the belligerents didn't prevent either WW1 or WW2. That almost was repeated with Germany/Russia today, whose ties have been shown to be a calculated effort to subjugate Germany through interdependence. For Russia it was war by other means. 2)True. No one can answer this question right now and we’re in dangerous times. 3)I agree. 4a) China has probably (IMO) re-evaluated their strategic interests and will be eyeing Eastern Russia instead of Taiwan. The US will be quite happy to allow this to happen. b) i generally agree but there are wildcards on both sides that are probably unforeseeable. In the big picture however I keep coming back to the fact that the right bomb on the Three Gorges dam would fuck China up something fierce. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 11:52:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Julian_JJE: Evening, I'm a spectator here but I wanted I wanted to share a quote from my congressman after sharing a link of the progressive letters: "Sadly again far right and far left merge. They should know Putin will not abide by any negotiation- remember the promises of Budapest and Minsk! Only Peace Through Strength works!" This is the greatest bipartisan issue of our era. There may be annoying banter but the support in congress will remain. Good evening, and welcome. You've got a good congressman, who knows the score and isn't afraid to call it out. I had wondered how long it would take the leftists to "remember" they were supposed to be friends with their fellow commies. And I'm still waiting for many on the right to see the Russian propaganda for what it really is. By the way, JJE gets a lot of love around here, as you probably already know. Warm greetings and respect to you all from up here in this corner of the state. @Julian_JJE |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 10/26/2022 12:17:25 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Very good point. It could even be argued that part of the reason Russia is such a shit-show today is that the US never really had a clear plan or strategy for HOW to deal with Russia when the Cold War ended 30 years ago, and we are now paying the price for that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Originally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By Mfaux: Originally Posted By R0N: What was the one universal criticism of the US post OIF 1? We were not prepared for catastrophic success and had no plan for what came next. So what happens next? Are we willing and able to garrison Russia to ease its transition like we did with Germany, Japan and Korea? If not are we prepared for Russia that is in the same place as a defeated Germany post WW I? A nice thing to worry about once victory is achieved. And that is why Iraq went to hell, we did not think about it until after the victory. Very good point. It could even be argued that part of the reason Russia is such a shit-show today is that the US never really had a clear plan or strategy for HOW to deal with Russia when the Cold War ended 30 years ago, and we are now paying the price for that. Key distinction: the US is not fighting Russia. We will not be the victors (or losers) of this conflict. That means we aren't in a position to control what happens to or in Russia after this is done. LOL at the idea of putting a garrison in Russia; that would make the nukes fly. We don't get to set terms for Russia. The US has to deal with the consequences of a defeated or broken Russia, if that's how this ends. The most we can do is vigorously apply diplomacy to mitigate any Russian disaster and hopefully coax them toward the light. If we're really lucky and really good, we might place some conditions on Russia's eventual re-entry to global trade that would benefit global peace and stability. But however much we supply Ukraine, this is their fight, and they decide how it ends. Another point to the above posts: the US government never had internal consensus on how to administer post-cold war Russia or post-invasion Iraq. It was ugly, watching US government factions fighting about how to run Iraq, and most of the ideas put forward were stupid. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 12:33:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ludder093]
[#26]
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NZL
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Posted: 10/26/2022 12:34:26 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Key distinction: the US is not fighting Russia. We will not be the victors (or losers) of this conflict. That means we aren't in a position to control what happens to or in Russia after this is done. LOL at the idea of putting a garrison in Russia; that would make the nukes fly. We don't get to set terms for Russia. The US has to deal with the consequences of a defeated or broken Russia, if that's how this ends. The most we can do is vigorously apply diplomacy to mitigate any Russian disaster and hopefully coax them toward the light. If we're really lucky and really good, we might place some conditions on Russia's eventual re-entry to global trade that would benefit global peace and stability. But however much we supply Ukraine, this is their fight, and they decide how it ends. Another point to the above posts: the US government never had internal consensus on how to administer post-cold war Russia or post-invasion Iraq. It was ugly, watching US government factions fighting about how to run Iraq, and most of the ideas put forward were stupid. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Originally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By Mfaux: Originally Posted By R0N: What was the one universal criticism of the US post OIF 1? We were not prepared for catastrophic success and had no plan for what came next. So what happens next? Are we willing and able to garrison Russia to ease its transition like we did with Germany, Japan and Korea? If not are we prepared for Russia that is in the same place as a defeated Germany post WW I? A nice thing to worry about once victory is achieved. And that is why Iraq went to hell, we did not think about it until after the victory. Very good point. It could even be argued that part of the reason Russia is such a shit-show today is that the US never really had a clear plan or strategy for HOW to deal with Russia when the Cold War ended 30 years ago, and we are now paying the price for that. Key distinction: the US is not fighting Russia. We will not be the victors (or losers) of this conflict. That means we aren't in a position to control what happens to or in Russia after this is done. LOL at the idea of putting a garrison in Russia; that would make the nukes fly. We don't get to set terms for Russia. The US has to deal with the consequences of a defeated or broken Russia, if that's how this ends. The most we can do is vigorously apply diplomacy to mitigate any Russian disaster and hopefully coax them toward the light. If we're really lucky and really good, we might place some conditions on Russia's eventual re-entry to global trade that would benefit global peace and stability. But however much we supply Ukraine, this is their fight, and they decide how it ends. Another point to the above posts: the US government never had internal consensus on how to administer post-cold war Russia or post-invasion Iraq. It was ugly, watching US government factions fighting about how to run Iraq, and most of the ideas put forward were stupid. Leave administration to Poland, the Baltics, and maybe the Finns. Simple, effective, and ruthlessly self interested in forcing Russia to change into a non-crap neighbor. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 12:57:45 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Hungary refused to deport Jews until 1944 when Germany removed the Hungarian President and installed a nazi puppet resulting in about 500K Jews being deported and murdered. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By Tiberius: The Italian Army actively interfered with attempts to round up Jews and in a couple cases took Jews that had been taken from collaborators by force. Eichmann and Himmler cried to Mussolini about it but he refused to intervene. Then there was Denmark….the Resistance there was tipped off by none other than the SS officer overseeing the Occupation that the round up was coming and what would happen to those caught in it. Due to this, all but a few Danish Jews escaped to Sweden. Hungary refused to deport Jews until 1944 when Germany removed the Hungarian President and installed a nazi puppet resulting in about 500K Jews being deported and murdered. But the world and leftist fucktards fake historians never talk about that. While Hungary had almost the same racial laws equal to Germany, they rarely did anything about it other than kicking out Jewish university and government workers who are jews. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 1:29:35 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kagetora: My thought too. How could you ever carry enough grenades for that bullshit? I'd want a steady supply until my aim improved and I was dropping every one in the hole. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kagetora: Originally Posted By CenterMass762: Originally Posted By Prime: Two Ukrainians assaulting a Russian hole. Too tired to reword that.
Part 2
Pretty intense shit. I bet that guy wishes he could carry about 300 grenades. My thought too. How could you ever carry enough grenades for that bullshit? I'd want a steady supply until my aim improved and I was dropping every one in the hole. Not going to lie, I’d want a flamethrower for that kind of work. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 2:28:21 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DonS: It can't help with Biden's Iran Deal. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DonS: Originally Posted By stone-age: Does it matter? Are we going to sanction Iran? It can't help with Biden's Iran Deal. This. Hopefully it’ll be enough to keep that deal from ever happening. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 2:41:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bassgasm: There's way too damn much talk about potential war with China in this thread, and there are too many silly what-ifs that don't seem based in reality. Some basics that seem to be overlooked or forgotten: 1) The level of economic co-dependence between the US and China is really damn high. Severing those ties would tremendously disruptive to both parties to an extent that likely outweighs the strategic importance of Taiwan, the oil rich areas of the South China Sea, or elsewhere. That's not sexy to talk about in a war thread, but it's true. 2) Nuclear powers don't fight direct conventional wars against each other for pretty obvious reasons. If that changes, we're in completely undiscovered territory as a species. 3) Most of the weapons/systems the US is providing to Ukraine would be of very limited value in a shooting war against China. 4a) In the event China really does make a move on Taiwan, there will be a game of chicken between the US and China, and it would be surprising if neither nation blinks. 4b) In the event of a proxy war against China in Taiwan, keeping Taiwan supplied will be orders of magnitude harder than supplying Ukraine... if not straight up impossible. We can't do for Taiwan what we have done for Ukraine. It's not geographically feasible. Now that we've got that out of the way, the actual war this thread is about seems like it's about to turn some serious corners in the next week or two... There are some old-school assumptions here, which have been disproven - some very recently and it has not sunk in. Let's work through this so we stop with the China boogey-man motif. 1) Covid broke the US-China link myth. Stop and look around you. The economic co-dependency argument is done and gone. I used to work in Asian financial markets. You can find a new factory on the rim quick and easy. You can also re-source things relatively quicker than previously expected via the domestic market. Done and done. Much as this war has broken the Russian power boogey-man, Covid broke the US/China dependency myth. Not as well understood, but done. Analyze this, do it quick, and move forward. If you get stuck in this old trope and loop you will not keep up with the strategic situation. 2) We've been head to head with Russia and China numerous times since 1950. Nuclear powers challenge each other all the time on the battlefield. Done and done again. Doing it now. This is a cold-war myth they like to repeat in graduate seminars at Georgetown and SAIS (where I've heard it over and over), but it's not true. 3) Agreed. What we are sending to Ukr has little value at all in an A2/Ad fight w/ China. We've been saying that for days and it just gets ignored. The "but but but inventory" is a very weak and weak-minded argument. 4a) Not sure if I track it perfectly, but if what you are saying is that neither nation blinks and it's on, then yes, I agree. Taiwan is a flashpoint. If you are saying that Taiwan is a "fake" flashpoint and we'll blink, no. 4b) There is no "proxy war" against China via Taiwan. This is not some trivial border territory a non-imperial power uses to poke China. And we are NOT an imperial power despite leftard propaganda. |
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IRL
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Posted: 10/26/2022 3:00:15 AM EDT
[#32]
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NV, USA
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Posted: 10/26/2022 3:03:09 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Very good point. It could even be argued that part of the reason Russia is such a shit-show today is that the US never really had a clear plan or strategy for HOW to deal with Russia when the Cold War ended 30 years ago, and we are now paying the price for that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Originally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By Mfaux: Originally Posted By R0N: What was the one universal criticism of the US post OIF 1? We were not prepared for catastrophic success and had no plan for what came next. So what happens next? Are we willing and able to garrison Russia to ease its transition like we did with Germany, Japan and Korea? If not are we prepared for Russia that is in the same place as a defeated Germany post WW I? A nice thing to worry about once victory is achieved. And that is why Iraq went to hell, we did not think about it until after the victory. Very good point. It could even be argued that part of the reason Russia is such a shit-show today is that the US never really had a clear plan or strategy for HOW to deal with Russia when the Cold War ended 30 years ago, and we are now paying the price for that. That was my argument 2500 or more pages ago. The top foreign policy goal of the 90's should have been attempting to stabilize and integrate Russia into the western world order. The chaotic free-fall of Russia in the 90s gave rise to the Russian peoples desire for a return of a StrongMan who would restore order. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 3:29:28 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: That was my argument 2500 or more pages ago. The top foreign policy goal of the 90's should have been attempting to stabilize and integrate Russia into the western world order. The chaotic free-fall of Russia in the 90s gave rise to the Russian peoples desire for a return of a StrongMan who would restore order. That's a lot of lovely 20-20 hindsight, but that is not how it appeared clearly at the time. I'm guessing you were not there in DC with the rest of us. ;) |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 3:34:11 AM EDT
[#35]
Russia didn’t want that either.
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Posted: 10/26/2022 4:02:35 AM EDT
[#36]
Well, isn’t that just a damn shame! (Unconfirmed)
https://nitter.net/nexta_tv/status/1585108361942831106?s=46&t=PGQ8X69exOXm6B3GfWKTiA A program of torture and murder in Kharkiv oblast: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/yd9ga3/organized_rape_civilians_shot_in_the_back_after/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 Wouldnt mind sharing that foxhole: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/yd4swo/our_defenders_twin_sisters_zoryana_and_kateryna/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 Germany sending two more M270s and 4 more Pzh2000s: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ydq6er/steinmeier_germany_to_send_two_more_mars_ii/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 First Nazis, the Satanists. What’s next, Bronies? https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ydmnyx/russias_security_council_claims_there_are/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 Swedish Archer SPAG heading to Ukraine: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ydhrdp/looks_like_sweden_will_be_sending_archer_mobile/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 On Tuesday, the defense submitted its report to the government on which military equipment Sweden can spare for Ukraine, writes SvD. At the top of the Ukrainian wish list is the Archer artillery system. Sweden currently has 48 such plays. We could spare 12 pieces, says Peter Lidén, lieutenant colonel at the Defense Academy. The Swedish Armed Forces' analysis is classified, so which and how many weapons Sweden can send is not yet public. Defense Minister Pål Jonsson (M) writes to TT that he will analyze the material and come back with a decision. Video of destroyed Russian pontoon bridge: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ydf7xn/the_railway_pontoon_bridge_over_the_oskil_river/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 Interview with a NZ volunteer in Ukraine paints a grim picture of the Russian situation. Morale getting worse, increasing numbers of mobiks being killed or surrendering within days of getting yanked off the street. Unconfirmed rumors that Russia is literally sending whole mobik battalions straight into heavy combat where they’re wiped out. https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018864142/conscripted-russians-captured-or-killed-within-days-on-ukraine-front-line-former-nz-soldier Hmmmm…could there be some truth to this? That is, we know Israel has guided GRAD kits. Could these be quietlymaking their way to Ukraine? https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/yd5v7x/america_gives_equipment_and_supplies_to_turn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 OSINTers identify likely Shaheed launch site in Belarus: https://mil.in.ua/en/news/belarussian-analysts-figured-out-russian-kamikaze-drones-launch-site/ Ha! Fuck off ya cunts! https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/yd7s9b/iranian_foreign_minister_hossein_amirabdollahian/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 Russian TV commentator actually provides some straight answers: https://www.newsweek.com/russian-state-tv-ukraine-war-dirty-bomb-putin-1754428 Some interesting statements from Germany’s Scholtz. Among others - “Ukraine will become a member of the EU.” “We will have a Marshall Plan for Ukraine”, and “Rebuilding Ukraine must start now.” As the main economic power in the EU, these statements from Germany should be taken as more than PR puff. Also indicates a counter to the likely Russian plan of devastating Ukraine so badly that Europe won’t want the expense. https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/yczoe6/rebuilding_ukraine_must_begin_now_says_germanys/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 5:28:28 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cypher15: These would make great drone killers in the cities >_> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/this-quad-minigun-armed-wwii-turret-spewing-rounds-is-metal-as-hell They let old painless out of the bag
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Posted: 10/26/2022 6:19:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta:.... Some interesting statements from Germany’s Scholtz. Among others - “Ukraine will become a member of the EU.” “We will have a Marshall Plan for Ukraine”, and “Rebuilding Ukraine must start now.” As the main economic power in the EU, these statements from Germany should be taken as more than PR puff. Also indicates a counter to the likely Russian plan of devastating Ukraine so badly that Europe won’t want the expense. https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/yczoe6/rebuilding_ukraine_must_begin_now_says_germanys/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 Yowza, that is actually big (have not vetted). There is no bigger critic of Scholz (sic) than me. He leads from behind - on everything, and badly. He is a disgrace. But if he is saying that, it's a done deal. ETA: when I was younger, I was friends with Chancellor Helmut Kohl's sons, Walter and Peter. We are not close now. But: I do know a bit about higher level German politics, and how much it has changed over the last few decades. Scholz, for the douche he is, is making an irrevocable commitment for the state. This should not be discounted as it comes from the office, not the man. That matters much more in Germany than in any other western power. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 6:19:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: sq40]
[#39]
 Ukrainian official: Russia digging in for 'heaviest of battles' in Kherson | DW News First MK19s I’ve seen in action. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 6:35:02 AM EDT
[#40]
On the problems of regime change;
 Vladimir Putin and the Dearth of Russian Leadership |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 7:10:09 AM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 10/26/2022 7:45:39 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: I agree. It’s only adding more anger and hatred towards Russia. That means more support. Ukrainians have proven over and over how resourceful and hard working they are. I think they will help each other to make it through winter, and succeed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By Bassgasm: I don't agree with that even a little bit. For a nation at peace that's had reliable electricity everywhere for decades, a power outage is a big deal. "We couldn't watch Netflix, and we had to use extra blankets. Ermahgerd we barely survived." For a nation that's a major war zone, where civilians are being targeted with cruise missiles and suicide drones, where everyone knows personally knows people that have been killed, and where thousands have been faced with rape, torture, and looting, electricity suddenly seems a hell of a lot less important. Power outages don't help, but I don't see them changing Ukraine's will to fight at all. I agree. It’s only adding more anger and hatred towards Russia. That means more support. Ukrainians have proven over and over how resourceful and hard working they are. I think they will help each other to make it through winter, and succeed. 120 years ago there was no electricity or gas to speak of and people survived winter. It took a lot of labor and planning, but people made it through. This winter will be fine because of all the shattered homes that can be salvaged for wood. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 7:49:34 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN: Pretty simple if true. Use material from that specific plant in The Russia for a dirty bomb and leave one of the dead scientists at the scene. Thought someone 870 pages ago said all nuke material has a unique signature, or whatever Almost everything has a unique chemical signature. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 7:54:41 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Does it matter? Are we going to sanction Iran? Why bother when a precision strike will destroy their ability to produce drones in the short term? |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 8:01:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: omar]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bassgasm: There's way too damn much talk about potential war with China in this thread, and there are too many silly what-ifs that don't seem based in reality. Some basics that seem to be overlooked or forgotten: 1) The level of economic co-dependence between the US and China is really damn high. Severing those ties would tremendously disruptive to both parties to an extent that likely outweighs the strategic importance of Taiwan, the oil rich areas of the South China Sea, or elsewhere. That's not sexy to talk about in a war thread, but it's true. 2) Nuclear powers don't fight direct conventional wars against each other for pretty obvious reasons. If that changes, we're in completely undiscovered territory as a species. 3) Most of the weapons/systems the US is providing to Ukraine would be of very limited value in a shooting war against China. 4a) In the event China really does make a move on Taiwan, there will be a game of chicken between the US and China, and it would be surprising if neither nation blinks. 4b) In the event of a proxy war against China in Taiwan, keeping Taiwan supplied will be orders of magnitude harder than supplying Ukraine... if not straight up impossible. We can't do for Taiwan what we have done for Ukraine. It's not geographically feasible. Now that we've got that out of the way, the actual war this thread is about seems like it's about to turn some serious corners in the next week or two... Excellent points. A war with China would be a maritime war. The US would attempt to bottle up the PLAN inside the first island chain, and control sea lanes of communication (SLOCs). US control of SLOCs would deprive China of access to raw materials flowing from Africa and elsewhere, adversely impacting industry and hinder transit of finished goods destined for export. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 8:05:15 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: Like Russia, China is facing a SEVERE population crisis in the next few decades. It's going to severely crimp their plans. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: Originally Posted By stone-age: Konstantine says china is planning to be 1 of 2 world powers and they plan to accomplish this by taking from russia the resources they need to do it. USA and China is their future. Konstantine, Inside Russia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMA5oTtZudwLike Russia, China is facing a SEVERE population crisis in the next few decades. It's going to severely crimp their plans. Any population crisis that China may have will not change the fact they have 1.3 billion souls available. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/26/2022 8:10:22 AM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 10/26/2022 8:12:44 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol: Any population crisis that China may have will not change the fact they have 1.3 billion souls available. A naval blockade can attrit that substantially. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 8:15:03 AM EDT
[#49]
UA NG/RRB compilation video.
The rapid response brigade of the National Guard of Ukraine is on the offensive.
Kherson UA Minister of Defense says UA controls all bridges over the Dnipro River Explosion in Kherson
It is reported that the explosion was at the training ground, where the exercises of the chmobiks take place. Self-destruct Another explosion at the Kherson training ground Temporarily occupied police station attacked Note, carefully cropped video in the tweet is carefully cropped for a reason. |
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Posted: 10/26/2022 8:17:37 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: UA NG/RRB compilation video. The rapid response brigade of the National Guard of Ukraine is on the offensive.
Kherson UA Minister of Defense says UA controls all bridges over the Dnipro River Explosion in Kherson
It is reported that the explosion was at the training ground, where the exercises of the chmobiks take place. Self-destruct Another explosion at the Kherson training ground Temporarily occupied police station attacked Note, carefully cropped video in the tweet is carefully cropped for a reason. What do you mean the video was carefully cropped? |
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