I thought this was an interesting take.  Of course, it wouldn't be the NY Times if I agreed with everything in it, but interesting nonetheless.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/opinion/sunday/weird-christians.html

"...a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation."

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried."

Leading horses to water; it's always only been the faith of the willing, that's like the whole point.

I don't think the point they are making is as deep as they think it is.  Reformation Christianity isn't a conquerors' faith like Islam, it is consensual.  Fewer people consent to it than used to.

I trust no one that would write this with a straight face:



Compared to what, exactly? If you've ever read a history book, you know that we live in the least ugly/brutal period in human history. Other than that, sure, it's horrible. lol

They are talking in the cultural/spiritual sense. Even multi millionaire celebrities who are mobbed by doting fans and have every worldly desire at their beck and call have been known to kill themselves out of emptiness and despair.

Well, Starbucks is closed down so I can't get coffee inside.

Of course the chinese backed MSM would demonize religion, its the opiate of the masses, duh.

Very debatable that that was better in the past either. What metric is being used to measure that, exactly? Sounds like little more than a purely subjective opinion. But you know, I'm sure people having their hearts ripped out by the Aztecs were thinking "well yeah, but spiritually we're doing great!" as their dying body was hurled off the temple pinnacle.

Or if we're gonna be all euro-centric and shit, them dark ages were great spiritually as well.

Even the Aztecs didn't kill hundreds of thousands of unborn babies every year.

From a materialistic perspective, life has never been better, for sure.  That said, materialism sure doesn't seem to satisfy, only inflame appetites for more, regardless of the comforts and luxuries we have.

Curious though, if you think that there is such a thing as an objective opinion?

They did publish it in the Opinion column, so I would not expect peer reviewed data and metrics.

However, we can discuss whether there is truth to that opinion.  As HEATSEAKER explained, that statement was made in the context of societal health and spirituality.

Let's look at some facts:

- We have the strongest economy in the world.  
- Our average national wage is the second highest in the world.  
- We have essentially eradicated poverty from coast to coast.  
- Violent crime has decreased significantly over the past few decades.  
- Opportunities for higher education are better than ever before.
- It's almost impossible to find a residence without indoor plumbing and HVAC.

All of these are great things that make life so much easier.  Yet:

- We're far from the happiest nation in the world.
- We have more freedom to do wrong and less to do right.
- Happiness has especially decreased for women despite achieving their societal careerist goals.  
- We have a lower marriage rate and a higher divorce rate.  
- Parents are quicker to give up.
- Suicides rates continue to trend up.
- Familial care of the elderly is in decline.
- Sexual activity in children is high, and so is overall promiscuity.
- And worst of all, we murder hundreds of thousands of our most vulnerable persons every year.

So is modern life ugly, brutal, and barren?  I would argue that abortion alone makes it ugly and brutal.  Is it barren?  That's obvious hyperbole, but by birth rates it's not too far of a stretch, especially as compared to harder times and poorer nations.

Yes, the Aztec human sacrifices were horrible.  Thank God for bringing Christianity to end to that barbarity.  Not sure I'm following why you brought that up.  Are you suggesting that all spirituality and religion is the same?

In conclusion, I don't necessarily I agree with everything in article, as I also indicated in the first post, but I hope you can see there is a lot of truth in the sense you took exception with.

I get what you're saying, I suppose I'm not seeing a direct link between the alleged symptoms and an underlying lack of spirituality. I mean, you could have a hell of a relationship with a higher power and be "guilty" of doing any or all of those things. You Christians still believe in forgiveness, redemption, being 'saved' and all that stuff....right? If so, how does getting a divorce--let's say--make you less spiritual. Even if it makes you a sinner in whatever religion you practice, are you less spiritual? And continuing the example, let's say you're a 'battered 1800s wife' that can't leave your husband because you'll starve / be homeless / kill your kids etc. if you do. Are you more spiritual than the independent woman that kicks the abusive POS to the curb? How?

Happiness is extremely tricky also, it's very subjective and has a lot to do with one's expectations, which are built on a lot of influences...and measurements across time seem fraught with challenges. Was 1800s dependant woman happy? Who the heck really knows?

In which religion is divorce in the circumstances you specified, "a 'battered 1800s wife'" a sin?  I'm a Roman Catholic and would not consider that a sin, nor would the RCC.

Would you define what you mean by spiritual?  I'd need that to answer your question.

Usually people who say stuff like that only believe in subjective truths.  Of course we all do to some extent, Christians have an anchor though to keep them from drifting.