See also https://deskthority.net/ and potentially https://geekhack.org/index.php

Yeah those are the main ones, and there's so many switches out now it's complicated.

I want to buy one of those switch sample/tester boards

lots of typing. i type / code / etc faster with one. the played out keytron k2? brown for me is good enough.

been running a ducky shine 4 with clears for the longest time now. imo i like a heavier switch and the bump too so clears are my favorite.

even got another mechanical keyboard for work that has clears in it and been loving it.

Most people are going to tell you to check out Cherry MX Blues - or Kailh, which is a similar brand. They'll sound the same and have similar activation force, so they might work for you.

They aren't the same tech, though, and they don't work of feel the same way. The Model M used buckling springs - great for typing, not really suitable for gaming. They have to be released more fully until they can be pressed again, while modern switches can be pressed quickly without releasing them completely. Think of it like this: buckling springs have a long trigger reset. Modern switches have a very short reset, but they're link a two-stage trigger in that you can release it partially and press it again without it clicking, but if you release it further it'll click when you press it again.

If you want a "modern Model M" - they make them. Unicomp bought the rights to the design years ago, and still makes them. They've updated them with a factory USB interface but they're otherwise largely unchanged. Those will be exactly like your vintage keyboards, and use the same physical switch design. As far as I know they've not made a lighted version, though.

OK, fine. I'll shop for yet another keyboard. Damnit.

I'm currently using a GMMK TKL with Gateron Browns.

I'd like something either off-the-shelf, or at least in kit form that includes everything - I don't want to spend weeks and hundreds of dollars sourcing every part separately.

For switches, I'm somewhat open. My primary use will be gaming, but if I love it I'll use it for writing and programming as well. I've used Blues, Browns, Reds, and Clears in the past and don't have a strong preference.

Aesthetically, I'd like it to be rather small, and low-profile. Minimized key travel would be a bonus but not a requirement. Wireless would be a plus - a big plus if it's Bluetooth but can be plugged in as well.

What should I look at?

Correct. Different switch design. People equate blues or clicky switches to buckling switches because blues do have an actual internal component that 'pops' on the downstroke with a reset that also gives feedback. They're the closest thing in an MX switch to a buckling switch.

This page is good for people who want to hear sound examples and an explanation for different switch types https://switchandclick.com/cherry-mx-guide/#:~:text=Cherry%20MX%20Blues%20are%20the,space%20with%20nobody%20else%20around.

Keychron makes good boards and they have Bluetooth options. You can get them fully assembled or barebones so you'd have to get your own switches and keycaps.

They also have low profile mechanical options.

If this link doesn't work you can just go to their site and click on all keyboards at the top and then refine by wireless https://www.keychron.com/collections/all-keyboards?pf_t_connectivity=Connectivity%3Awireless

This is great info, especially comparing the switches to trigger resets, which I completely understand.

I've been doing a lot of research into getting the "right" keyboard.    One thing that's significantly complicated it is that I decided that, since I never use the tenkey pad, I really want an 87 key model, not 104.   Lots of them around.  And it has to have the cursor arrows separated in a T shape, not jammed up against the Enter key.  Lots of them around, too.  And it has to have the Cherry Blue keys.  Lots of them around, too.  But when you combine all those features, it gets extremely hard to find, and the cost jumps up a lot.  

One of the best I found was the Cooler Master MK730.  But apparently it's been discontinued.  I found lots of them on the market with Brown switches, but none with Blue.  Well, there was one Blue - someone on ebay in Singapore selling one for about $200 shipped, so that's not gonna happen.  I did save the ebay search in case one pops up in USA.
Cooler Master MK730

Mechanicalkeyboards.com has an incredibly huge selection of keyboards.  But once I narrowed it down to the criteria listed above (and in stock), there were only 2 models; the Yellow Ducky One 3 TKL Hotswap RGB Double Shot PBT QUACK Mechanical Keyboard for $149 shipped.  This one is made entirely from yellow plastic, which looks kinda weird, but I guess I don't care about appearance.   QUACK seems to mean something there, but I couldn't find an explanation on the site about it.   And I'm not sure what Double Shot means, either.    The second one is the Ducky One 2 RGB TKL Pure White RGB LED Double Shot PBT Mechanical Keyboard for $135 shipped.   The main picture for it looks weird (the unicorn shit look someone else mentioned), but another picture there of it looks like ordinary white.    Maybe that's the one to go with.   They had another one that looked good and in stock, Ducky One 3 Matcha TKL Hotswap Double Shot PBT QUACK Mechanical Keyboard - but not lighted.
Yellow Ducky One 3 TKL Hotswap RGB Double Shot PBT QUACK Mechanical Keyboard
Ducky One 2 RGB TKL Pure White RGB LED Double Shot PBT Mechanical Keyboard

If I give up on the 87 key and go for 104, I can get a nice Logitech with Cherry Blue from Amazon for $80 and Newegg has them for only $47 shipped.  Even at $80 from Amazon, that's about half the price of wanting 87 key instead of 104.   Mighty big premium for getting fewer keys.
Logitech K845ch Mechanical Illuminated Keyboard

Or I can try some sort of keyboard light.  All I really want out of this is a keyboard I can use with the lights off.   I've been typing a long time, but I do need to see the keyboard when I type.  I live off-grid, so I don't want to have an overhead light on just to see the keyboard.

I looked at the Unicomp M models, but not lighted, so I might as well use the Model M keyboards I already have.

Someone mentioned the Kailh brand BOX line of switches.   I looked at the Kailh web site and they list MANY models, including the BOX line.   But there are several color options even within the BOX line, and their web site doesn't describe the differences like the Cherry brand does.   Does anyone know which Kailh switch is going to be the most like IBM M clicky or Cherry Blue?

The Ducky One 3 like you mentioned shows it'll be in stock on March 11th with MX Blues. If you can wait a little while that would be a good bet.

Also look at Keychron. They have quite a few different options and price points. Everything from fully CNC milled boards to plastic to bare bones to different sizes and they're well regarded.

One of the things about the Logitech keyboard you mentioned (and I have a very similar one) is that I've found I hate floating key switches with backlight LED's. The floating switches put out a ton of side bleed which is annoying at night. I type a lot in dimly lit rooms or late at night and the bleed out under the keycaps is retarded. I also, at this point, don't like that Logitech are not hot swappable and they use their own switches called Romer G. They're basically entry level or kind of low cost versions of other switches.

Double shot is how the keycaps are made. Its two layers of plastic molded together. The legends are basically the letters or font of the keycap. If you want each keycap to be illuminated you have to look for shine through keycaps. GMMK has a pretty basic set of ABS keycaps that are shine thru https://www.gloriousgaming.com/products/gmmk-keycaps

There are some other options out there but for the most part the semi-custom or custom keyboard community has never really adopted shine through or RGB as a thing because it actually limits the uniqueness of different style keycaps. I can see my keys pretty well just using the underglow from my keyboard but my keys are not shine through.

The quack mechanics is more of a marketing thing. Just means it has nice keycaps and 'tuned' for sound.

Ducky master race checking in, quack quack

Check out the Keychron and Nuphy low profile keyboards.
The low profile switches have a ton less travel than full size mechanical switches.
Note that mechanical switches and optical switches are NOT interchangeable.
From a switch perspective, I would think that a Keychron low profile keyboard with the Mint optical switch would be pretty close to the feel of a laptop keyboard, but it would still have a longer keystroke.
I have the Keychron K5SE low profile with optical reds (Keychron switch) and the activation force is on the light side. After years of laptop keyboard (macs mostly) I rest my fingers on the keys. The reds will sometimes register a key press accidentally. I was to try the mints next as they have a tactile bump and the activation force is closer to the Mac keyboards.

The nuphy specifically though has key caps that are close together, so that might also help.

Thanks for contributing. I know they exist but literally never typed anything on low profile mechanical keyboards.

Cherry blues, or any others have been my favorites for 20 years. I typically use corsair. the feedback from mechanicals is great, positive, and the only way for me.

Overall, I am pleased with the low profile Keychron K5SE, coming from an Apple "Magic Keyboard", which is basically a desktop version of their laptop keyboard.
I use that and laptop keyboards 100% of the time. I wanted to dip into the mech side of things, so I was looking for a keyboard that was hot swap, low profile to better match the height of the keys on my existing setup, and not too expensive. I also wanted a shorter throw to the keystroke. The only thing I don't like about it is that I wish it had heavier springs and/or a tactile bump to cut down the accidental key press. I may pick up the Keychron Mint optical switches, which are very close to the activation force of the Mac keyboards.

I am typing this on the Keychron K8 with aluminum frame and Gateron Browns. The issue I have with this one is needing to "hover" over the taller keys. I REALLY need to get an appropriately sized wrist rest. I do like the brown switches, though they are louder than the reds on the K5SE.

If you are looking for sound, the low profile keyboard is not great. The K8 has a much better sound to it, but I'm not in an office with this keyboard. It's a little on the loud side compared to the K5, but no where near the Cherry MX Blues I have in another older mech. Those are loud. I like these brown switches much more than the blues.

I am still struggling to find a keyboard.   I've spent dozens and dozens of hours working on it.   I was all set to order that Yellow Duck keyboard, but then somehow I found out (I think) that, even though it says it's RGB, the keycaps don't light the character.  The characters are just printed on top.   I THINK the Ducky One 2 shines through the cap, but maybe I'm wrong.

After much more searching, I found a Keychron keyboard I liked, but none came with Cherry switches.    Gateron Pro Blue instead.
Keychron K8
Eventually, I found the same keyboard as a barebones board and figured I'd just get the board and add the switches and caps.  
Keychron barebones keyboard
Well, they are out of stock on the clear, plate-mount Blue switches, with no expected arrival date.  I understand I need the clear ones so the light goes up through then and through the cap, lighting the cap and the letter on it.   I could not find any other place on the internet selling Cherry Blue switches.   Grrrrr

I also had a hard time finding keycaps.  On the mechanicalkeyboards.com site, even after narrowing it down to backlkit caps (which I ASSUME means the light will go through then and light up the cap's character), there were over 500 to pick from and everything I looked at was out of stock.

I could just say to hell with all this trouble and get the one with the other brand Blue switches.

I've also gotten all bogged down in the latest incompatibility - north vs south.   When I couldn't find any keycaps on mechanicalkeyboards.com I looked on Amazon.    But everything there says it's for north-facing LEDs, and from what i can tell most all the keyboards are south-facing.  Most all the keycaps and boards I've looked at don't say if they are north or south.  I THINK the barebones board I mentioned above is south-facing, but I'm not sure.  The little white squares on the board, which I assume to be the lighting LEDs, are on the south side of each key space, while the letters on most all keycaps are on the north side.   So why would any keyboard be south-facing?

I also finally found an in-stock set of keycaps I like, but now I'm not sure if those characters are printed on or if they are light-through for the character on top.  They ARE listed as a backlit keycap and the picture of them with the lighting on seems to show the light coming through the caps.
backlit keycaps set

It's amazing how difficult this process has turned out to be, at least for a newbie, and all the many incompatibilities and how little of this important compatibility information is provided by mechanicalkeyboards.com for each of the products on their website.   I tried calling them, thinking that, if they specialize in mechanical keyboards, they could probably help me a lot.  Nope.  Incredibly poor support.  I called and got some girl who clearly knew absolutely nothing about their products and kept wanting to answer my questions by looking up on their website and reading the same thing I was reading.  I got put on hold a couple times for at least 5 minutes each while she went and asked someone else.  I was finally, after asking several times, able to get her to understand I needed to talk to someone else more knowledgeable, and that person answered some of my questions.

So, do you think the above 3 combination of barebones keyboard, keycaps, and Cherry clear, plate-mount switches will all be compatible and work?  Then, if so, I wonder how long I will have to wait for the switches to come in.  Or is there another good source of the switches?
Or should I just avoid all this drama and just order the complete keyboard and live with the other brand switches?    

Do you guys that regularly do all this keyboard component switching around go through all this trouble (incompatible things, OOS things) every time you want to make a change?  

Some the Ducky One 3 models were showing a date of early Feb availability, but now all are showing March 11.  Some of the Ducky One 2 models were in stock, some had early Feb.   Now the 2 white is March 11 (must be a very big day for them), but the black one is still showing in stock.   Many things I've liked have actually gone out of stock before my eyes as I've been doing all this studying.

I've been through so many details through all this I forget some things, but I think I read that the Ducky 2 was actually better than the Ducky 3 for being able to light a particular key a certain color while other keys are another color(s).  If so, then even though not hot-swappable (would I EVER want to go through all this again?), I think the Ducky 2 would be better for me than the Ducky 3.   If so, maybe I should just hurry up and order the damn black Ducky 2 while it is still in stock
black Ducky One 2

Sorry it's such a long post - it's been a super-long process, and this just covers the highlights

Ok so one of the things with LED's being north or south facing is that on most keycaps the legends are on the north side of the cap. The only thing clear switches do is allow for undergrow from below the keycaps. Even the solid color switches will have a hole for north facing LED's to shine up through the keycap for shine through legends and you do get some underglow just from that.

So if you had a solid color switch with north LED's with shine thru legends the legend will be lit up with a minor underglow.

If you have a clear switch with north LED's with shine thru legends you get both the illuminated legend and full underglow.

South facing LED's with a solid color switch will have zero illumination.

South facing LED's with a clear switch will have some legend illumination and full underglow.

Don't get too caught up on Cherry brand switches. There are a lot of options. Check out YouTube for 'best clicky switches' and see what's out there. I am looking at Banana Split (linear) already to replace the Fox switches that came with my GMMK Pro. I have actually really come to like linear switches and like the sound a lot better. Don't get caught up on blues unless you really just want that sharp actuation point. Tacticiles still have a bump without that harsher loud click.

I definitely think hotswap is the future of mechanical keyboards, and it allows you to buy one 'base' and then change things around if you ever change your mind in the future. These things are like AR15's where you can substitute components and accessories. You can tune and mod them.

For hotswap if you choose to go that route make sure the PCB supports 5 pin which is standard for switches. Drop (formerly MassDrop) sells boards that are 3 pin for some reason despite being hot swappable so you have to clip the 2 extra plastic pins off every switch

Oh yeah on the double shot thing that is definitely the way to go. The keycaps will never wear out or wear through some time of coating. The secondary color is molded into the keycap so there is nothing to wear off.

The Logitech keyboard I have and a lot of cheap keycaps are actually some sort of translucent plastic underneath with a coating that can wear off. I already had some keys where the coating was wearing through. I tend to hit the A key straight down so my nail rubs against that key. My MBP keyboard had the same thing but was much more durable and went a while before the A legend started wearing off.

Double shot is actually two layers of material. Dyed legends are exactly that. Its one layer of material where the legends are dyed into the material which tends to also create a little bit of blurryness to the clarity of the legend as the dye bleeds out into the texture of the cap. Double shot legends will never wear out.

Attached File

Thanks for the info. I’ve got a Keychron K5 SE with mechanical reds sitting in my Amazon cart now. I think it’s got everything I’m looking for. It’s surprisingly reasonably priced too.

This has been a really interesting thread, I’ve learned a lot from it.

Definitely Cherry Blue for me.

I code.  After switching to mechanical I can never go back.  I'm using Cherry MX-Speed Silver switches in a Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB split gaming keyboard w/the 'tenting' attachment - low force/short keystroke/fast response, good feedback, adjustable ergonomics, and not too loud (but still loud enough that it could be annoying to others if in a shared office space...).  I have a separate number pad that uses Cherry MX-Brown switches. I try not to beat on my keyboards like an enraged gorilla so I very much prefer the silvers; for a heavier typists silvers are not the best option.

That video that was posted with all the switch testing was hugely helpful in trying to decide what switches I like best.   Thanks for posting it, OP.

I'm starting to figure out that the "RGB" is referring to mostly an underglow on the keys and maybe, but not necessarily, color lighting of each cap's legend.
Apparently, part of that RGB is all sorts of changing, flashing, etc underglows.  I have no interest in any of that.
One feature I'm particularly trying to find is the ability to set specific keys to a specific color.  

I'm liking this keyboard about the best for its features, which includes per-key color programming.   I think the Ducky2, but not Ducky3, will also do that.
Hexgears Nova Grey Aluminum TKL RGB Laser Etched ABS Mechanical Keyboard
It also has Kailh BOX White switches, which seem like they should be good for me.
This one explicitly says it will do per-key color programming.  So that's a big plus.  Not hot-swappable, but I am starting to think swapping components is so fraught with pitfalls & incompatibilities I probably wouldn't want to anyway, unless I was desperate.

Almost all these keyboards have caps with the "caps" character on the SIDE of the main character.  This seems very counter-intuitive and annoying to me.   I mentioned it to my wife, and she though it was just awful, too.  This keyboard has "normal" legend placement, so I like it much better than the others.  It also has more rounded cap tops, which I also think I'd really like.  Unfortunately, it also has the switches I like the least of all the clickys; Gateron.
Keychron K8 Pro Plastic Case TKL Hotswap Bluetooth RGB Mechanical Keyboard
It's also not clear if this one will do per-key color programming.   I have written the mfg about it.  If it does, I think I'll just get this one and be done with it.  It's hot-swappable, but from what I'm finding out, there are a lot of incompatibilities even within hot-swappable.  So who knows of other switches, like Cherry Blue or one of the Kailh BOX switches can be used with it if I later want to change switches.

Looks like that Hexgears is only controllable through FN + commands. They don't appear to offer an app with a GUI to change the lighting.

You can definitely change switches down the road with the Keychron. The main standard for switches for the PCB and switches is 3 pin or 5 pin. The vast majority of switches are 5 pin. All that means is there are 2 additional plastic nubs that fit into the PCB to help stabilize the switch in the socket. You can convert a 5 pin switch to 3 pin by clipping off the two extra nubs.

The Keychron is also QMK and VIA compatible which is basically open source 3rd party software that is popular to customize keyboards. You can use that to change lighting and whatever else you want. QMK is done through their website where you download the firmware that is generated then flash that onto the keyboard. VIA is more like a GUI app.

Of those two options the Keychron is the way to go.

Well, after many more hours of research and pondering the decision, I finally quit screwing around and ordered the Ducky3 with Cherry Blues.
I also finally fully understood the deal with the keycaps and the north-south thing.   I realized that the Keychron that I liked the caps on so much was not going to be lit through the keys, and that if I wanted the characters lit up, I'd need to go with caps that had the characters jammed up at the north end of each cap so they could see the north LED.  I decided to go for the 3 instead of the 2 so I could be hot-swapable for only a few more bucks, even though the 2 is in stock right now.    Now I guess I wait for mid March.
Many thanks for the introduction to this part of the world and for all your help with it.

I also found this info that goes into the north-south differences in detail.  Ironically, I found it after ordering my Ducky3, while looking to see what north-facing keycaps were out there.
North vs South

It will be worth the wait. They are great keyboards! Congrats

FYI - Today I also got a reply from Keychron regarding my query to them about whether or not per-key custom lighting was available on that K8 keyboard:
sorry, this keyboard can not be programmed for separate individual per-key lighting for each key now.

I don't game much anymore but I find a mechanical  to be much better for my carpel tunnel when typing.  I used to have a killer Razor with their green switches but now I'm on a Kaliber gaming model with I think brown switches.  If my neighbor a couple acres away can't hear me typing I have the wrong keyboard.

I use Cherry Blues at work and Cherry Browns at home.  Honestly I like the Blues better.

The other keyboard I like is an old Gateway 2000 AnyKey.  It's not connected to anything right now though.  I need a new adapter as the old one doesn't work anymore.

I hate the Apple Magic Keyboard. I use a PC at work with a Logitech MX Mechanical, going from that to a magic keyboard on my Mac at home sucks.

Razor Huntsman V2 here. I write for a living and will always use mechanical keyboards. They are superior.

Long video you can skip around through but shows how people are doing their own assembly to build some of these keyboards. The kit is only $70 but obviously requires a lot of solder work.

https://nullbits.co/nibble/

On the "build it yourself" note:

There is this tool where you create your key layout : http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/

Then you can export the data from there, and take it to this tool, to auto design a plate (or even case) for the board : http://builder.swillkb.com/

Then, you would also need firmware for the board, which you take the output from the 1st site above and put it here to generate : https://kbfirmware.com/

Then, you just need to pick up switches, diodes, key caps, and put it together.

One can, design pretty much whatever layout you want:

Cherry red currently. Probably picking up a brown as well.

Many moons ago, I picked up a sampler that has Cherry Red, Blue, White, Green, Black, Brown, Grey, and Clear. It's great for annoying coworkers during meetings.

I have the regular GMMK love it.  I tried out my gfs and then also ended up with their mouse.

Huge upgrade for me over included keyboards and even the Red Dragon mech I have.

That keyboard builder is very cool.   I created a keyboard that I like - basically an 87-key minus the keys I never use.  Oddly, they had many standard layouts to start from, but no 87 key or TKL.  I found I could start with a 104 key and just delete things off the right side until I had a TKL layout.      I created an account there and saved the layout.
So deleting keys is easy.  I can add a key, but it always gets tacked onto the bottom of the layout,  I also want to move a couple of the keys already on the layout.  But I can't figure out how to move them, though.  

I use a Razer Basilisk V3 Pro mouse that I really like a lot. I like mice with a thumb shelf.

The GMMK Model 1 is similar but doesn't have any texture on the thumb and pinky areas. They sell a grip texture pack but not sure if it would feel as nice as the molded in grip areas on the Basilisk.

You have to select the key in the layout, then edit its X/Y position in the field underneath.  Same for key width, color, etc.

ETA - here are some you can "start with"

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b0561f208c10225c3ecd6782badcc687
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b5de2dc6a28d46cead47207eb86c0463
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/46f1233852065b9254bd59834277bc00
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2c45e29215839f7505344f8f8525f6a3

That is very cool

I did that and got the keys moved OK.
I later found out accident that you can also move them by selecting and then using the arrow keys.   You can change size by Shift-Arrow keys.  Alt-Arrows didn't seem to do anything.  Ctrl-Arrows put a scope-reticle-like marker up and then moved that around.   I haven't yet figured out what that does.

I agree, wish I still had mine.

You can buy buckling spring keyboards from the old designs but I can't vouch for any quality there.

I actually think stuff like this is really interesting but the ASMR stuff does the opposite for me lol so feel free to skip around

Funny thing with ordering from mechanicalkeyboards.com
That Ducky One 3 in black kept showing up as in-stock up until the time I ordered.   When I put it in my cart, it showed as in stock.   But then I got a message about something in my cart was going to be a pre-order and delayed.  When I went back to that keyboard and switches combination, it then said March 11.   But the top of the order form still said in stock in TN.   Anyway, I placed the order and I think I got another message about delayed to March 11.  I also included a note on the order, asking them to clarify if it was in stock or not.
They never responded to my note on the order, but today I got an email from them with the tracking number.  At that time, the tracking said USPS didn't actually have the package yet.  But now the tracking says USPS has it in hand, so I guess it's really going out.  Great - of course, I really didn't want to wait to mid-March for it.

I also finished laying out a custom keyboard.  It's an 87 key TKL with all the keys that I never use removed.   While I could use this as the basis for a totally from-scratch keyboard, I figure I can probably modify the Ducky 3 to be close to that.   One thing I wondered about - for the key slots where I've deleted the key and the switch, is there such a thing as something like a flat top plastic cover that will go down into the switch hole and cover the hole where a switch was and leave a flat surface?

Wife and I were out and about earlier and we looked at keyboards.

She really likes the razer huntsman v2 but wants one without the RGB, is there a way to clone it?

I learned real typing in a comm center, on teletype machines with mechanical linkages.  I still mash the keyboards too hard.  I have no idea from mechanical keyboards or not, I just bash the keys hard no matter.

Anyone want some free switches? I'm running out of room for them and figure it would be better than just tossing them in the trash. Most would be linear or tactile.

Sure, I'll take them to try in the keyboard I've got coming in.   I'll PM you.

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I kept getting an error when I replied, so I kept trying, then it finally took and I saw that each had actually posted, despite the error message.

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